Paralized Panther Grouper

[swill]

We have had a panther grouper for about 8 months now. We got him quite small but is now about 6" approx. He's kept in our 300 gallon FOWLR tank. About a month ago we noticed him laying flat on his side on the bottom and breathing heavy. We figured he was going to die and left him overnight to see if he had become food for the rest of the tank. We woke up to him still in the same spot and when we fed the tank he actually ate. It was strange to watch though because he only ate when the food came to him, he didn't really get up or swim to the food, it floated by him so he grabbed it. After about 4 days of this activity we decided to take him out of the tank (mostly because he was now missing a small part of his tail)

He now lives in a 10 gallon with 3 tiny chromis (it's our sons tank and it was our only option.) He's been in that tank for about a month. He eats daily but only when the food comes to him. He is always laying flat on his side. I'm going to make a video and post it on youtube to show you what I mean. I am wondering if its possible he's paralized and if so what would have caused that and is there anything I can do??

TY

[swill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdXi4A66bMI
Youtube video of the fish :)

[daniella3d]

Ok I see the video now. wierd. How long he's been like that?

Maybe a infection of the swim bladder? I would treat him in a quarantine tank with antibiotics. Since there is nothing apparent on the outside beside the tail, it could really be internal.

I would treat with metronidazole and prazipro in case of internal parasites, but I would first treat with antibiotics in a quarantine tank. You could as well put some epsom salt to help in case there would be a blockage in his intestine that can cause this but since he's still eating, I doubt he has a blockage.

[daniella3d]

The more I watch the video the more I think it's a swim bladder problem.


If you can get him to eat food soaked in metronidazole, that might help faster.

[Pirates_Gold]

Initial thoughts are Flukes, primarily due to the rapid breathing. Other symptoms might include redenning of skin, flashing and sunken belly. Try a freshwater dip (same temperature & pH as aquarium water) for 5-10 minutes. Osmotic shock will cause most parasites to detach its host. If there is a heavy infestaion, do not dip too long as it can cause additional damage to the Grouper. Return the fish to your aquarium and check the freshwater container for small, translucent flat parasites. If you find Flukes or other Trematode parasites, you may need to treat the entire system with a product called Prazi-Pro.

[swill]

He's been like this for about a month, no better or worse. I will have to do some research on everything that is being posted here as I have never heard of most of things being suggested (besides freshwater dip)

Thanks for the response so far.

[swill]

Initial thoughts are Flukes, primarily due to the rapid breathing. Other symptoms might include redenning of skin, flashing and sunken belly. Try a freshwater dip (same temperature & pH as aquarium water) for 5-10 minutes. Osmotic shock will cause most parasites to detach its host. If there is a heavy infestaion, do not dip too long as it can cause additional damage to the Grouper. Return the fish to your aquarium and check the freshwater container for small, translucent flat parasites. If you find Flukes or other Trematode parasites, you may need to treat the entire system with a product called Prazi-Pro.

He did have what looked like bloody skin awhile back just before he started acting like this actually, not sure about the sunken belly...what is flashing?

[daniella3d]

I doubt it's flukes. I had to deal many times with fluke on marine and freshwater fish and that never caused them to lose balance.

Flashing is scratching on side of rock and objects. I don't see it breathing fast. Often a fish infected with flukes will breath from only one side and very very fast, at least that's what hapened with most of my fish that were contaminated with flukes.

Prazipro is a good med to try anyway because if he's got a blockage in the intestine from worms it will take care of it. It is reef safe as well. I used it to cure my copperband from flukes and it did not dammage to my corals or invert in the tank, not even my feather dusters and not even the flat worms.

It does clear any internal worms as well as flukes. Can't hurt to treat.

What keep a fish in balance is its swim bladder. If this is not working properly the fish will not be able to float, or will lose balance. It is difficult to treat. Sometime it start with an infection and it heal but it can be permanent dammage as well.

If he's like that for a month, chances are that the infection is gone, if it was due to an infection. If it is due to internal parasites, then Prazipro and metronidazole should help.

You could treat with prazipro and soak the food in metronidazole. That's what I would do.

He did have what looked like bloody skin awhile back just before he started acting like this actually, not sure about the sunken belly...what is flashing?

[swill]

So far we have tried a fresh water dip and gave him epsom salt and still no real difference in his behavior. I don't see him eat now though which maybe because of the fresh water dip. We're ordered some Prazi-Pro and metronidazole from online but of course have to wait for it to come in :cry: the joys of living in such a small town. :cry: I will post again when and if anything changes. I've never had a fish survive this long who is clearly sick, I wish I would have acted quicker but I just assumed he was going to die at the beginning of all this.

[Snaz]

Best to end it's misery I think. As stated it is swim bladder problems or something else affecting it's balance. In the wild it would be crab food by now, harsh I know but a fish that does not swim is sad.

[dunl]

We're ordered some Prazi-Pro and metronidazole from online but of course have to wait for it to come in :cry:



Go to your vet and ask for metronidazole, but you need to explain what it is for and how you are using it. Ask to talk to the actual vet, not one of the front desk staff. They should carry it, but they use it for another purpose, not aquatic.

[daniella3d]

Big Al Online Canada sell metronidazole so no need to bother with the vet.

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/fish/metronidazole-5-g.html


Go to your vet and ask for metronidazole, but you need to explain what it is for and how you are using it. Ask to talk to the actual vet, not one of the front desk staff. They should carry it, but they use it for another purpose, not aquatic.

[patd]

I don't have any advice on what it could be but I do think its a rather sad state for an otherwise cool fish. A month is a long time to live that way and a testament to how tough groupers are but I think I would be sending him to ichthyological heaven by now.

[swill]

Best to end it's misery I think. As stated it is swim bladder problems or something else affecting it's balance. In the wild it would be crab food by now, harsh I know but a fish that does not swim is sad.

He is starting to come around to be honest with you. Why would you just kill it because it is sick when there is a way to maybe cure him. Would kill your dog because he is sick with out seeing if there is something you can do for him. I have been hand feeding him he is getting stronger everyday now. Thanks for bluntness but I don't think you should be giving advice as you obviously don't think a fishes life has value. That's is all!

[Casey8]

He is starting to come around to be honest with you. Why would you just kill it because it is sick when there is a way to maybe cure him. Would kill your dog because he is sick with out seeing if there is something you can do for him. I have been hand feeding him he is getting stronger everyday now. Thanks for bluntness but I don't think you should be giving advice as you obviously don't think a fishes life has value. That's is all!


God bless you for thinking of the value for the animal's life, swill. Hope with your effort and with your good heart, this fish will pull through.

[patd]

He is starting to come around to be honest with you. Why would you just kill it because it is sick when there is a way to maybe cure him. Would kill your dog because he is sick with out seeing if there is something you can do for him. I have been hand feeding him he is getting stronger everyday now. Thanks for bluntness but I don't think you should be giving advice as you obviously don't think a fishes life has value. That's is all!

If my dog was paralyzed and had to be handfed for over a month to remain alive - yes, I would have it euthanized. No offence but I think you have lost consideration for what is quality of life....and by your own admission the fish appeared so sick you never thought it would survive more than a day or 2. Perhaps you ought to reconsider criticizing someone else's morals and ethics and reflect on your own first.

[Corbin]

If my dog was paralyzed and had to be handfed for over a month to remain alive - yes, I would have it euthanized. No offence but I think you have lost consideration for what is quality of life....and by your own admission the fish appeared so sick you never thought it would survive more than a day or 2. Perhaps you ought to reconsider criticizing someone else's morals and ethics and reflect on your own first.

i agree, id euthanize myself if i was paralyzed and had to be hand fed too.

[Sasquash]

i agree, id euthanize myself if i was paralyzed and had to be hand fed too.

I bet you wouldn't kill yourself...if that day happened you would be thankful for everything...

[gregzz4]

swill, I can't believe it's still alive :surprise:
It's possible it has an intestinal blockage which is causing food in it's gut to press against it's swim bladder, amongst other organs.
If that's the case, I'd suggest you keep feedings down and try to feed it something that will help with digestion.
If it ever starts to recover, again feed it something to flush it's system.
For us it would be fibre ....
Good luck !

[gregzz4]

And regardless of all the flushing suggestions you've had, if it's not twitching and so on .... just laying around ... I'd say it's not suffering.
You never know, it may come around.
Such a beautiful fish

[swill]

If my dog was paralyzed and had to be handfed for over a month to remain alive - yes, I would have it euthanized. No offence but I think you have lost consideration for what is quality of life....and by your own admission the fish appeared so sick you never thought it would survive more than a day or 2. Perhaps you ought to reconsider criticizing someone else's morals and ethics and reflect on your own first.

He was not actually paralyzed he had a blockage that affected him he got weak and would just lay in one spot. I feed him a pea with a small grain of epsom salt and it seemed to help him. If there was no way that he would get better than yes I would euthanize him but I would never do it without seeking a fix first. If you can't take critizium then maybe you should think before you post.

[swill]

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. The grupper is starting to turn for the better he is sitting up right now and even starting to swim again. If it was not for your help this fish would have surly died. Thanks again from myself and super grouper as we have nicknamed him.

[cwatkins]

So in the end what treatment did you use? Just empsom salt, or did you go with the anti-biotic?

[swill]

So in the end what treatment did you use? Just empsom salt, or did you go with the anti-biotic?

We just went with the salt we look at our pet store here for the meds but they didnt have any. I ordered some online and it came in yesterday. I am Comptalating on treating him with it or not. I am open to suggestion thanks.