240watt Eco Blue DC pumps

[The Codfather]

http://absolute-koi.com/pdf/Blue%20Eco%20Pump%20Manual.pdf

I am in the middle of buying some of these pumps for my new build. I have done a ton of research on these, as well as talked to numerous people who own and operate these pumps as well. I have scoured the European market trying to find a good price on these pumps. Cheapest I found was about 685 Euro and 95 Euro shipping, putting the pump right around the $1000 dollar mark landed at my door.
Many have compared it to the Abyzz-($1999 for a pump landed at my door)which it looks like aside from colour, but has a better control. Now the eco now has a 1-10v interface so it can be controlled by a controller now, and they are beta testing a controller that may be purchased separately.
Now I am buying these pumps regardless of the outcome of this thread, what I am asking is if you are seriously looking at a controllable DC pump, either in the 110v or 220v version, that I will tack on your order with mine. Please read the pdf manual, I will also post another as soon as I can get it off my other computer, so you can make an informed decision.
I have been in contact directly with the manufacturer and have got a fairly good deal on these pumps, several hundred dollars off each pump. Now before I get into too much detail, Ill try to get a bit more information on this thread. Ill also try to answer any questions you have, but please, if you are interested, look over the manual.
Lets try to keep this thread on track, I can get any series you wish, but I'm sure the 240v is more than enough for most larger tanks. I will however, if there is no interest at all, post all the info on how the pumps perform and put as much detail on them as possible. Thanks,
Bob

[mike31154]

Had a read through the manual & failed to see any info on gallons or liters per hour. They go to great lengths to detail the controllability & mention 'true sine wave technology' which has nothing to do with DC voltage? There's also nothing on head pressure specs for the various size pumps? Didn't see anything on a 110 VAC version, only 230 VAC which will require a dedicated 220 VAC circuit similar to the one an electic clothes dryer or electric stove would use. This means installing a two pole circuit breaker for 220 volts in order to use this pump?

I'd be interested in having a look at something more detailed than the user's manual, such as complete tech specs with gph numbers & head pressure capability before I spend money on something like this.

Edit: My mistake, the gph for the 240 watt is listed with the price list at the bottom of one of the web pages. 4850 gph for the 240 watt. Still at 685 British Pounds, that's a pricey pump & head pressure numbers are not available.

[The Codfather]

Mike,
I have requested a pump curve chart as well as a more detail tech. spec.
I am a plumber by trade, not a sparky so the aspect of sine wave tech means little to me, my appoligies. I can only assume it has something to do with the inverter, but this is not my area of expertise. I have however relayed the question on to them, I will post what responce I receive.
I am trying to get the information in writing on the 110v and 220v version, I know that both are available as I am ordering both models. I will have both 110v and 220v wired to my aquarium and will test both pumps side by each.
I will be running the 220v on my system, a friend of mine has ordered the 110v version. I asked him if I could compre the unit before he takes the pump, just to see if there is any differences. Which I am sure there will be, but only in the power consumtion.
As for the pricing, I know it seems high. To be completely honest, I see this as my main return pumps with controlability. I do not have to buy power heads such as the ecotech or tunze to acheive waves or random flow patterns as it can be done with the pumps controller(both the basic or the advanced controller), or with the 1-10v interface.

[The Codfather]

Ive also been asked what I get out of all this, why am I trying to promote these pumps? The simple answer to the promotion is this, the cost of the pumps may go down a little bit more. But I am paying the same price as you would, I am not receiving any free product or getting any monetary gain. I am interested in what these pumps can bring to my system and they are the cheapest of the ones I have found, believe it or not.
If anything, sit back and read the thread as it progresses, I will post anything I find with the install and proformance of the pumps. I know the promise of a all powerful DC pump has been brought to the market before and failed miserably. Im doing this because, I suppose I can(and its a pump I want) and I find it hard to believe that a pump like this is not in our market. If anything, it will bring a bit of new info into our forum.

[mike31154]

Always cool to see someone such as yourself trying a new product & a controllable return pump is certainly an option many of us could use! Once something like this gets rolling, often other manufacturers will look to get in on the game provided patents don't stifle competition too much.

Good to hear that you'll be getting some more specs on the unit, particularly the head loss curve. As far as the electrical part of it, seems many products have a lot of technobabble on their web pages to impress & confuse folks in an effort to persuade them that their product is somehow exclusive.

Panworld has been producing DC voltage pumps for some time, but there is no controller, you simply feed the rated DC voltage directly to the pump, same as a standard AC voltage pump. Thing is, our homes are fed 60Hz AC voltage, so to run any DC pump, you need a rectifier to produce the DC voltage. With a heavy duty variable resistor, you could make a simple manual control for any DC driven pump, much like a conventional dimmer. It would take a few more parts & circuits to make this automatic & that's generally where the high cost comes in.

Here's my best guess as to why they talk about pure sine wave with respect to this pump. Looking at the Controller circuit diagram on page 12 of the User Manual, I suspect that the motor itself is a 3 phase AC motor & the only thing DC about it is the Controller itself. The Contoller is fed household 60Hz, 2 phase AC voltage which it rectifies to DC. This DC voltage is then fed to the Control Circuit which actually produces a 3 phase AC or PWM signal. The PWM signal is then fed to the 3 phase Inverter Bridge & finally to the AC motor. This is probably why they talk of the pure sine wave. As I mentioned earlier, the motor itself is actually a 3 phase AC motor being fed a controllable, pure sine wave AC signal from the motor Controller!

Hope this is not too confusing & somewhat informative, I tried to keep it relatively simple and of course it's just my best guess as to how it works based on the block diagram. Bottom line I think is, the relatively high cost of this pump can be attributed to the Controller.

Looking forward to hearing a bit more once you get your hands on these.

[The Codfather]

Mike,
Thanks for the input, this is part of the reason I wanted to post here. There is a pile of information that can be aquired based on one's profession, any information is apprieciated.
I know the pumps themselves, regardless of if they are 110v or 220v are the exact same pump. The difference is the controller that comes with them. So what your saying does make sense.

[mike31154]

Found some additional info on another web site, specifically max head pressure for each model:

Model MaxFlow(gph) MaxWattage Maxhead(metres) Price

BlueEco240 4840 240 9 689.95

BlueEco320 4840 320 11 795.00

BlueEco500 7000 500 11 1175.00

BlueEco900 7700 900 13 1395.00

BlueEco1500 9240 1500 16 1495.00

9 meters of max head for the 240 is pretty huge, that's > 30 ft.

Info is a way down on the following web page. Took a while to load, not sure what's up with that.

http://www.koicarp.org.uk/koi_dry_goods_water.htm

[The Codfather]

Mike,
I pulled this out of the email they sent:

"the power module uses true sine wave technology for high reliability. Unlike brushless DC motors with square wave technique"

Don't quite know what that means as I'm a plumber not an electrician. Care to shed some light on this?

Pumps curves are hopefully coming soon.
Thanks,
Bob

[subman]

cheaper inverters make a squared off sine wave, basically instead of a nice curved wave its clipped at the top. The better the inverter the closer to a true sine wave it is.

[subman]

http://www.bdbatteries.com/images/sinevsmod.jpg

[mike31154]

Generally it's AC motors that are negatively affected by a square wave power signal. They run very inefficiently if at all with anything but a pure sine wave. This is why it's not a good idea to run your AC powerheads on a backup system with a cheaper square wave producing inverter.

Without additional details on the design specifics of this 'DC' motor, it's tough to explain why they're talking about sine wave technology, since generally a DC motor runs on DC, that is Direct Current, not Alternating. I mentioned earlier that I suspect it may really be an AC motor since they appear to be feeding it a 3 phase Alternating Current signal from the controller. It is quite possible that the motor is indeed a DC motor & the frequency of the 3 phase AC signal is so high that the motor sees it as DC. Kind of like feeding an LED, which is also a DC device, a high frequency AC or PWM signal. The LED turns on & off at such a speed, that we don't perceive a flicker at all, yet since it is turned off for a nano second, there is some power savings realized over time. Confused yet? I sure as H am. I need to do a little research on running a DC motor with an Alternating Current or PWM signal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

[subman]

It is very confusing for sure I just did a quick read and there is a lot going on in the controller. single phase in to 3 phase and it looks like some form of dc out....I'm guessing lol I've been out of the electrical fields (no pun intended) for a while so maybe this is a new thing.

[mike31154]

Ya, same here. I've done a bit of reading & it seems 3 phase DC brushless motors are becoming more commonplace due to their efficiency. It appears that most are controlled using a PWM (pulse width modulated) signal but the folks at Blue Eco have decided that a sine wave is a better design than PWM to run the motor more reliably. Probably another reason for the higher cost, since the controller would be more complex to produce a 3 phase sine wave.

So looks like my initial musings about the motor actually being AC were wrong! I must eat crow!

[The Codfather]

Well I think this may be my fault, as I see nothing in the information I have that indicates it is a DC motor. I may have just assumed that it was, but now that I look at it again, they imply it is not a brushless DC motor.
My mistake.

[mike31154]

Right at the top of Page 6 of the manual it clearly states that the pump is run by a brushless DC motor, so no mistake, you were correct.

[subman]

Well I think this may be my fault, as I see nothing in the information I have that indicates it is a DC motor. I may have just assumed that it was, but now that I look at it again, they imply it is not a brushless DC motor.
My mistake.

No it does say in the manual that it is a DC driven motor.

"Short Instruction
The pump is driven by a DC-motor and, therefore, equipped with a controller. Check the following sequence when starting
the pump:"

mike beat me lol

[The Codfather]

Right at the top of Page 6 of the manual it clearly states that the pump is run by a brushless DC motor, so no mistake, you were correct.

True enough, there it is. In some sense I appoligize for the lack of some information, I'll pass on what I get.
I'll try to post the tech. Specs I have here, they are in PDF. I wonder how I can post them up. Any ideas? Aside from copy and paste?

[The Codfather]

ROTOR
The rotor is the heart of the driving force and needs to fulfill the highest demands. The 8 pole rotor is built around the tungsten or titanium shaft. This static and dynamic balanced rotor consists of 16 high quality neodymium super magnets. The rotor is protected by a composite layer of aramid fiber reinforced carbon.
Both ends have double shaft seal with smooth bearings which sit in a resonace free silicon bedding. As well as making theses pumps capable of hadling sea water it also prevents vibrations which can be sensitive to some invertebrates and koi.
STATOR
The 27 poles stator not only gives an equal propulsion, due to the True Sine Wave technique it also has an unmatched torque.
PUMP HOUSING
The pump housing it made from blended ABS and PC (polycarbonate) that unifies the positive features of both materials. Inside the housing the stator is fully cast in epoxy resin and is protected by a strong layer of aramid fiber reinforced carbon.
POWER MODULE
The power module uses True Sine Wave technology for high reliability. Unlike brushless DC motors with square wave technique, BLUE-ECO pumps use True Sine Wave technology for the best features: High Efficiency (94.6%), noise free running, high torque, wide RPM range, CO2 reduction.
BEARINGS
For pumps, the bearing system is the most important part for reliability and life span. Blue-Eco pumps have a diamond-hard bearing system of doped silicon carbide with or without the combination of the super strong and durable tungsten. The use of these high quality materials are unique and exclusive for these pumps and guarantee a long and trouble free operation.
LEAKAGE FREE
The way BLUE-ECO pumps are constructed prevents any internal leakage. The rotor rotates in the same water that lubricates the bearings. With a unique rinse-system, different for both models, the water inside with be continuously changed during operation.
WATERPROOF
The pump is completely waterproof confirming to class IP68 (up to 12 meters of water head). The controller is waterproof up to class IP64 (splash proof).
CABLE
The cable on the BLUE-ECO have extra protection for maximum safety in case of damage. The outer mantle is made of TPE and is fully saltwater proof. Due to this cable the pump can be fully submersible in (sea)water.

BLUE‐ECO PUMP
CONTROLLER
The controller is developed by senior experts from professional companies in senior aquarium breeding / gardening industry of Netherlands and Germany, and
produced under supervision of the University of Shenzhen, China. This leading university is working close together with Europe’s biggest companies and universities in this area.
CERTIFICATION
The BLUE-ECO pump is the only pump in its class that has both the European CE certifications as well as the German “TUV Prufungs and Test Certificate”. This guarantees extra quality and safety.

[mike31154]

True enough, there it is. In some sense I appoligize for the lack of some information, I'll pass on what I get.
I'll try to post the tech. Specs I have here, they are in PDF. I wonder how I can post them up. Any ideas? Aside from copy and paste?

I wouldn't sweat it, I think we have most of the info we need at this point. I found the max head pressure figures a few posts up, so there's not much more we really need to make a decision as to whether it's the right pump for our needs. A flow curve would be cool, but in the end, the max pressure, power consumption & price is what most folks will be interested in.

[The Codfather]

What I have also noticed was the marine version is not in the original manual.
It has a low max. head, but a high capacity. Also a 50mm inlet and outlet, not the 63mm like the pond version.
Marine Pump

Type:BLUE-ECO Marine 240W
Capacity:28m3
Inlet:50mm
Outlet:50mm
Watts:14-240
Max Head:7m




[The Codfather]

I wouldn't sweat it, I think we have most of the info we need at this point. I found the max head pressure figures a few posts up, so there's not much more we really need to make a decision as to whether it's the right pump for our needs. A flow curve would be cool, but in the end, the max pressure, power consumption & price is what most folks will be interested in.

Ya, I've made up my mind to give these a try, Im ordering three shortly.
I have been contacted with a few pm's both from RC and Canreef, about people who have actually installed these pumps on a marine system in Canada. Ive asked them to please post on this thread about their experience, Im hoping they do. As far as I know, and from what Ive been told there are at least 13 of these pumps here in Canada. All in all, not many at all. Im surprised that there are not more pumps like this out there.

[subman]

In the end it doesn't really matter what happens in the controller as long as the pump does what you want it to do. The only thing I would check is how quickly it can switch from 0%-100% for you Bob as I know you plan for it to replace all wave makers and power heads

[phi delt reefer]

cod - does this help you out at all?

I know its only a skimmer pump but maybe the retailer can bring in the return pump version?

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=45001

[The Codfather]

cod - does this help you out at all?

I know its only a skimmer pump but maybe the retailer can bring in the return pump version?

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=45001

I have emailed for information.
The biggest thing about these pumps is are the gph. Not high enough. Even their larger pump only does 10000 lph(10m3). The blue eco does 28000 lph(28m3) more than double, and fully controllable. Not six preset speeds.

[The Grizz]

Why are the quiet, efficient running pumps so damn expensive? I really need a high flow, super quite & efficient pump for the 300 but can't seem it find something affordable & sell my other pumps :frusty:

[padrino]

Why are the quiet, efficient running pumps so damn expensive? I really need a high flow, super quite & efficient pump for the 300 but can't seem it find something affordable & sell my other pumps :frusty:

It is dead silent at lower RPM, at higher or max it has a small wine.

I HAVE ONE :) and 2 Abyzz A200. I paid $1000 by the time I got mine.

Bob has messaged me a few times in the past, I know he is serious about this order. Couple things to consider. Look into how you will adapt them now. They are metric so i took a 1.5" spigot and machined it out to 50mm.

You guys can come see it in action before you buy if you like. I live in Barrie, ontario

Cheers
Rob

[The Codfather]

It is dead silent at lower RPM, at higher or max it has a small wine.

I HAVE ONE :) and 2 Abyzz A200. I paid $1000 by the time I got mine.

Bob has messaged me a few times in the past, I know he is serious about this order. Couple things to consider. Look into how you will adapt them now. They are metric so i took a 1.5" spigot and machined it out to 50mm.

You guys can come see it in action before you buy if you like. I live in Barrie, ontario

Cheers
Rob

Hey Rob,
I looked at the abyss as well, but for $1999 a pump I just couldn't do it. I've found 50mm x 2" couplings in the states and will have them shipped up. They're cheap at $8 a piece.
Thanks for the offer, but most of the interest is here in Alberta.
Other than that, have you had any problems with it? Any info you have please feel free to post, good or bad. Thanks,
Bob

[padrino]

Hey Rob,
I looked at the abyss as well, but for $1999 a pump I just couldn't do it. I've found 50mm x 2" couplings in the states and will have them shipped up. They're cheap at $8 a piece.
Thanks for the offer, but most of the interest is here in Alberta.
Other than that, have you had any problems with it? Any info you have please feel free to post, good or bad. Thanks,
Bob

I have been running it since December 26th with good success. They are quiet pumps and very energy efficient at least at the low end. As you raise the RPM the wattage draw quickly increases. It will be interesting to see what happens when I need to pump water from the basement to my main display. Perhaps Ill try and get a video of what it sounds like as you ramp it up, Remind me in a few days.
Rob

[The Codfather]

Pumps have been ordered and are shipped.

[padrino]

where did you end up ordering them from again? How many did you order?

[The Codfather]

where did you end up ordering them from again? How many did you order?

Rob,
I have order three pumps total, 2-220v versions and 1-110v version. I am expecting them to arrive on Thursday. I was disappointed that no one else wanted to give one a try, as the price I received was very good. I got all three for less than one Abyzz. Feel free to pm me for details on ordering.

[padrino]

Ok so more importantly, how will u set this up electrically? I110 is easy as it just plugs in andis easy to install on a gcfi circuit for safety. One thing that i want is a battery backup.p option so if the power goes out, my pump continues to run. How will you wire up the 220 pumps?

[The Codfather]

Here are the first couple of pics, Im surprised on how small they are, hard to believe they'll push 6000 gph each.
Ill have two hooked up tomorrow.
Sorry for the crappy pics, used my phone.

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt252/codfather_2009/IMG_0200.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt252/codfather_2009/IMG_0201.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt252/codfather_2009/IMG_0202.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt252/codfather_2009/IMG_0203.jpg

[cale262]

They look awesome,...kinda kicking myself now for not getting one:sad:

[subman]

They look awesome Bob! Cant wait to see them rolling!!

[The Codfather]

Ok so more importantly, how will u set this up electrically? I110 is easy as it just plugs in andis easy to install on a gcfi circuit for safety. One thing that i want is a battery backup.p option so if the power goes out, my pump continues to run. How will you wire up the 220 pumps?

The only pump i will have on a backup is a waveline DC-5000, which is another DC pump.

[The Codfather]

They look awesome,...kinda kicking myself now for not getting one:sad:

Kind of wish you did too, it would have brought my price down. I may do another order if there is interest enough. Ill keep you posted Brian.

[The Codfather]

They look awesome Bob! Cant wait to see them rolling!!

Should be up in 24hrs. I am dying to see how they preform, the control will be basic until I can get the newer and programmable controller, but I can ramp the pump from 10 to 100%, pulse(but too what degree Im not sure) I know with the new controller that is coming out I can pulse, so no wave makers in the tank at all, feed mode, day/night mode etc etc....

[padrino]

I glued my pump directly to 2 2" chemical true union ball valves this way i can remove the pump itself for cleaning or service. Just make sure you use cleaner and pvc to abs transition cement if you decide to go this route.

Cheers

[redddogg]

Should be up in 24hrs. I am dying to see how they preform, the control will be basic until I can get the newer and programmable controller, but I can ramp the pump from 10 to 100%, pulse(but too what degree Im not sure) I know with the new controller that is coming out I can pulse, so no wave makers in the tank at all, feed mode, day/night mode etc etc....

Won't pulsing your return pump wreak havoc on the level of water in your skimmer section? I would think this would only work if you have a recirculating skimmer (most don't).

[padrino]

Not if the skimmer section is before the return section :)

[redddogg]

Not if the skimmer section is before the return section :)

Depending on how low the pump slows down this will also affect the skimmer section level ;) it would be a delicate balance to make enough of a pulse to create adequate waves and not raise the level and make the skimmer overflow. Sounds more complicated than it would be worth. Dimable pumps are great for multi use on different size tanks but wave function is better accomplished with something other than the main return pump IMHO.

[padrino]

Depending on how low the pump slows down this will also affect the skimmer section level ;) it would be a delicate balance to make enough of a pulse to create adequate waves and not raise the level and make the skimmer overflow. Sounds more complicated than it would be worth. Dimable pumps are great for multi use on different size tanks but wave function is better accomplished with something other than the main return pump IMHO.

Agreed my blue eco is my return so i set and forget however being able to change speed twice a day is cool but wave or pulse is better suited for closed loop pumps

[redddogg]

Agreed my blue eco is my return so i set and forget however being able to change speed twice a day is cool but wave or pulse is better suited for closed loop pumps

Connecting both the return and skimmer up together through either the pump controller or an external controller to facilitate a feed mode would be nice.

[mseepman]

Just wondering how these pumps ever worked out for you?

[The Codfather]

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt252/codfather_2009/IMG_3266_zpsd3d59a48.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt252/codfather_2009/IMG_3265_zpsdb5cf8f0.jpg

Mark,
they are working pretty good, have them wired through the profilux, so I can have full control. Trying them as a pulse or wave action right now, it does make the pumps whine a little, that that happy about that, but what can you do. Other than that I do like the ability to have total control, if I want a little more i can always bump it via profilux. All in all, happy with the outcome.

[padrino]

I have had one issue, The pump consistently said it was blocked, even without the propellor in. I was able to get a replacement through the vendor I bought it from. Its still 1000 dollars cheaper than a Vanotec Abyzz and I have 2 if those.

Today there are many different DC pumps hitting the market, each bringing down the price. If you wait another year or so, they will be really cheap. No different than LED fixtures
Cheers

Rob