more clams dead

[Aquattro]

Man, you're scarin' me! I just went and checked on mine....they're still happy as,..well, you know :D

[smokinreefer]

Brad,
are your clams new? or are they already established in your tank?

[Aquattro]

No, mine are a year old. I did lose a new squamosa last week though....apparently due to "heat"

[Jayson]

What have you been feeding the clams? Clams need a lot of food to thrive. Most clams die of starvation. What is your nitrate level?

[DJ88]

Jayson,

I feed DT's(15 ml every two days) and Golden pearls. My two maximas are doing fine and have been for a long time. My clams weren't the only ones to perish in this recent heat wave. I know of quite a few.

I stopped measuring Nitrates in this system about a year ago. After my tank from a crash. None of my ihabitants, SPS, LPS, gorgonians or clams are showing any stress.

[ 07 July 2002, 19:35: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[Delphinus]

Umm .. did you say heat wave? Has your tank been affected at all? If so ... I wonder if that's your smoking gun.

I'm pretty sure my losses (2 / 4 clams lost in the last month or so) have been directly, or at least indirectly related to some heat spikes my tank suffered about a month ago.

Darn things are pretty sensitive when you get right down to it.

[DJ88]

TOny,

NO heat spikes in my tank. I have only had this fella for a week and a bit. There were some bad heat spikes just before I bought it tho. It is the only thing I can think of.

[Aquattro]

Darren/Tony....I also didn't have any heat spikes. My clam was shipped overnight (on a cool night) and put in my tank the next morning. Water temp in the bag was a little cooler than my tank. Day and a half later, clam mush!!
I think there was a batch of ill treated clams coming in from the wholesalers.

[Dale D]

I had a heat spike (close to 90) in my tank during the hot weather. All my clams did fine, but, I lost a couple soft corals.

We lost a clam in the reef tank in the store a couple of weeks ago. It had been in there almost 2 years and had tripled in size. One day I noticed that the hinge on it's shell had broken and it started going down hill from there. :(

[DJ88]

Well mine and my sisters derasas are gone. :(

mine was fine late last night and gone this am.

grrrrrr

[kris]

im really sorry to hear that, any ideas why?

[Delphinus]

Sorry to hear it too. Man, not a good week for clams. :(

Any clues what happened?

[DJ88]

none in both cases..

[Jayson]

Darren the reason that I ask about your nitrate level is that clams require nitrate to survive. I know that most people do not bother to test for this. You should have a nitrate kevel of atleast 5ppm in your tank if you want the clams to survive for a long period of time. I add sodium nitrate to my tank to maintain the required levels. Thanks

[Aquattro]

Jayson, I have to disagree somewhat. Yes, clams like some nitrogen in the water, but I don't believe adding it as a supplement is required. Although my Salifert kit shows no detectable nitrate (or ammonia, for that matter), there is both in the tank at all times. I can watch the nitrogen bubbles rising from my sandbed. This indicates that there is a constant supply of nitrate in my tank. If there is enough for my sandbed to convert to a gas, there is enough for my clams to assimilate.
My clams concur with this hypothesis simply by growing constantly. This would also coincide with the amount, or lack of, nitrate in their natural environment. Thoughts?

[smokinreefer]

i too believe there was a bad batch of clams being brought in. but i also feel that this bad batch is carrying something.

i dont want to cry wolf, but to those of you who have lost newly purchased clams and have established clams in the same tank...please run some carbon and do a water change, if for only a precaution, please do it.

i lost a recently acquired squamosa...that falls in the timeframe of this all the other recent deaths, but with one difference, 2 of my 3 other established clams were not opening up yesterday. i suspect something has been introduced into the water via the bad clam.

both are now dead.

i think it may be time for me to throw in the towel or maybe downgrade. its been a very bad year for me...livestock wise, and the year is only half over.

i do know that my sytem had recovered from my sps crash, as all my softies and new sps frags are doing awesome.and now this...i am frustrated to say the least.

[DJ88]

SH!T!!!!!!

Running carbon now..

Man Shao.. I am sorry to hear that.. crap crap crap.. If I lose my Black Max I am going to be soo ****ed..

sigh..

Shao. call me.. we'll figure something out for a new system if ya want.. Lot's of practice here.. ;)

[Delphinus]

Unfortunately, it seems clams can carry diseases that can spread from clam to clam. I've heard it all too often (and had it happen in my own tank) where one clam dies, and eventually the others soon follow suit.

I guess it comes with the territory of keeping clams. Happens to the "experts" too, and they don't seem to understand it any better either, if my reading on RC is any indication.

It seems to me that any time we purchase a wild-collected animal, we run the risk of introducing an unknown pathogen into our systems. Unfortunately, since even "farmed" clams still spend time in the ocean, even purchasing farmed stock does not completely eliminate this risk (although it does seem to be a better option, as farmed seem to be stronger animals, more used to captive conditions).

Apparently, clams really are that sensitive. Look at them wrong and you risk killing them (or so it seems, some days). You need a rock-solid, bulletproof system for clams IMO.

Sorry for your losses. I know how you feel (boy do I ever.) :( Hopefully, it gets better from here on...

Shao, don't give up. It can be hard some days. I know .... trust me I know. But you'll find your groove if you keep at it.

[ 08 July 2002, 16:15: Message edited by: delphinus ]

[canadawest]

OK now I'm officially worried too. I just purchased a new Derasa two weeks ago. (If you recall Darren it was the day that I came by your place, then ran into you later at J&L's)

Anyway, mine seems to be doing great, as is my 1 year old Maxima. I'll keep an eye on em both, but so far no worries.

(knocking on wood)

[DJ88]

Well my max's are looking fine. If anything they are fuller. ;) I'll keep an eye on them tho. I'll try anothe rone in a wihle.. Can't get enough. smile.gif

[One_Divided]

There is something funny going on with the derasa's from J&L I think.. I ordered one which I recieved early this week in an order.. The clam opened up once after acclimation and then about an hour later was covered in hermits and nassarius feeding on it's remains. I would definately not blame shipping, my tank or my acclimation techniques.. I would say there was something wrong with the clam in the first place and the ordeal just topped him off.. The clam is not covered by any warrenty so I am left with a $30 shell..

[ 08 July 2002, 18:05: Message edited by: One_Divided ]

[Aquattro]

Adam, exactly what mine did. Next morning it was full of snails!

[jb1974]

I just wanted to add my story, if anything just to warn people...

About 1 month ago I added a Ponhepei maxima from an online retailer. I noticed within the week strange behaviours from my existing clams (the new max was gaping a little at the start). I had 8 existing clams :( Notice I used the word "had"...anyhow, I noticed that my maximas and squamosas were looking gapey (sp?). I noticed the derasas were looking closed up...I had recently upgraded from a 180 to a 360 and had added an additonal 250watt iwasaki to my 400watt radium over the clam area. I wasn't sure if the clams were stressed out form the move. I didn't think this was the case though as all my sensitive sps came through just great, coralline began coating the walls within 2 weeks of transfer and the sand bed was immediately showing signs of denitrification. I continued to and had always dosed Dt's. Things were and are extremely stable. I didn't think a 250 watt iwasaki (plus I ramped up the photoperiod adequately) addition would hurt them as a 400watt radium was over them before (equal par). I lost the Ponephei max about 2 weeks ago. I lost my huge beautiful bicolor ultra max about a week ago. I lost my 2 squamosas 2 days ago and the rest are still exhibiting the gaping etc... I noticed a thread on RC that talked about a strain of bacteria that could be infecting some clams at the wholesalers tanks. I do beleive this is bacetrial in nature. There is just no other way to explain this. All my clams were doing well before I added that one maxima.

I am desparate at this point to save the remaining 4 (I have lost 5 in total)...so desparate that I have resorted to trying chloramphenicol at the dosage of 20mg/L (Borneham) ...I dosed the clams (in quarantine) with it 2 days ago after losing the squamosas. The remaining 4 are holding on but look very sick :( I know this chemical is dangerous, but as I said, I needed to try this last resort.

I would advise (as others have done as well) not purchasing nay new clams for awhile (although it seems farmed clams are OK, just not wild). I hope no one else has to go through this as it is a real downer!!! I am learning more and more about the benefits of aquaculturing...I just seem to do it the hard way :(

J

[ 08 July 2002, 21:16: Message edited by: jb1974 ]

[Jayson]

Reef Raf,

The bubbles you are seeing in yuor sand bed are nitrate being converted to nitrogen gas. I beleive that you do need nitrate in your system to maintain good clam growth and health. The experts will agree on the fact that most clams will die of starvation. Last April when I was at a clam farm in Indo I learnt alot about the care of clams. one of the things that was lterally beat into my head was that they need food. You should see the amount of nitrate that they add. They also add some amonia as well. If you guys are interested I will send you a disc of pics from my last visit to see some suppliers in Indo. It has some pics of the clam farm. Wild caught clams will and do bring in pathogens that can cause a tank to suffer fatalites. This is why we only sell farmed clams. these clams are farmed in large vats out of the ocean on land. There has been alot of talk about captive raised fish being purchased over ocean stock. This practise should also be practised for clams and corals as well. To prove the hardiness of captive raised clams I have a good story for you. Here goes. I sent a packages of clams to Quebec via Purolater they sent the package to B.C by mistake. I received the package back 87 hours later all clams were still alive! When I bring in ocean clams I will lose atleast 10 per houndred. I just brought in over 130 farmed clams last week and lost none! Farmed clams are hardier,period!

[Aquattro]

Jayson, I agred that they need nitrate and yes, there is nitrate in the tank (demonstrated by the fact we see N2 being discharged from the sand). My thoughts are that given the fact we have one or two clams in the tank, the addition of extra nitrate seems overkill. On a farm, however, this may be a different story. The amount of residual NO3 certainly isn't enough to support a huge number of clams in a contained area.
Although I am by far an "expert" on clams, mine do extremely well and have done so over a year now. The growth rate for both my clams is great. I do feed DT's and my clams are over 3", big enough to support themselves via photosysnthesis.
Just the thought of adding NO3 to my tank scares me!!
Pics of your trip to Indo would be awesome.
Thanks for the comments.

[StirCrazy]

although I am no clam expert I think I understand what Jayson is talking about.

The same thing aplies in planted F/W tanks whare we dose nitrates as food, even though the tank is cinstantly producing nitrate my test kits always reasd 0. so by controling the nitrate level at 5 or 10 ppm, you are insuring that the plants get all the nitrate they need.

in a Reef tank there could be a chance that the sand bed will outcompete the clams and that the calms are not going to get as much as they would like so in the same tolken by maintaining a level of 5ppm you are not going to hurt anything but you will ensure that the clams will get there fill.

make sence?

Steve

[Delphinus]

Seems to make sense to me Steve. What do you use in your freshwater system to add nitrate?

And Jayson, same question, what are you using to add this nitrate? Where does one find this stuff (does it have a brand name?) Is is just some kind of specialized fertilizer?

I recognize Jayson's need to dose sodium nitrate; 180 clams that need to be fed is an awful lot of mouths to feed! (Imagine the DT's dosage on that one :eek: ). My last follow up question is this; in the hobbyist setup where there are only a few clams at most, is it as crucial to dose this nitrate, as it would be for a system maintaining 100+ clams?

I know I could easily add a whole pile of nitrates to my clam tank; by plumbing in my 20g carpet tank that chronically suffers from nitrates >40ppm. Of course, since the clam tank is only a 75g with 20g volume in the sump, the clam tank would go from (95g at 0.0 NO3) + (20g at 40.0 ppm) = 115g at ~6.9ppm (if my math is right). The one thing about that is, it would be a 0.0 to ~7.0 instantaneous jump, which I think would probably shock the heck out of things. I don't know, perhaps I am overly paranoid..

Presumably, things such as caulerpa and other macros will also be competing with clams for NO3 just as much as that DSB is..

[Aquattro]

I just feel that additional nitrate is detrimental to the SPS in the tank and that my clams are growing well without it. I can't say what is really required or not, but I won't add additional nitrate.

[StirCrazy]

well I make up a mix of the following

mix with water to make a 1/2 liter solution,
1 tablespoon chelated trace mix
1 tablespoon MgSO4+7H2O
2 tablespoons K2SO4
1 tablespoon KNO3 (varies, depends on your nitrate)

MgSO4 +7H2O is available from drug stores as Hydrated Epsom Salts

KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) and K2SO4 (Potassium Sulphate) for thease I got them at a Hydroponic shop as "lab grade" but Greenlight's "Stump Away" is just KNO3.

now I am not sure if you would want potasium in a reef, so you might have to watch that level.. so if potasium nitrate is ok then you can get it at any hydroponic store I have found.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Originally posted by Reef_Raf:
I just feel that additional nitrate is detrimental to the SPS in the tank and that my clams are growing well without it. I can't say what is really required or not, but I won't add additional nitrate.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">there is the trade off, low nitrate levels don't harm anything that is normaly kept in a fw tank, but if SPS like nitrate free water then I woulden't add it either..

Steve

[Jayson]

Reef Raf,

If you want a picture disk please contact me. If any body else wants one contact me as well. I use a sodium Nitrate it is basically a lab grade powder. It can sell for anywhere from $70-$150.00 for 500 grams. The purer the better as clams are sensitive to heavy metal poisioning. 5 parts of nitrate is harmless in a tank and will not affect sps. Some German aquarists are actually adding sodium nitrate to there tanks for sps growth!. Tony plumbing your tanks together would be a good idea if you did not want to add nitrate.I know how fast those clams dropped your levels in the past. a 7ppm spike is nothing to worry about. The only word of caution here is be careful as to what kind of chemical that you add. Some are pure and some are not as pure. the sodium nitare powder I use is 99.9993% pure.Make sure that you buy a powder and not crystals. Most hydroponics stores are no where near this. You do not have to add nitrate to your tank but if you want to keep alot of clams in optimal conditions you should maintain a higher level of nitrate(5ppm) as well as make sure that you have a good calcium level and iodine levels as well. We can survive for a month with out water and food but we do a hell of alot better eating 3 squares aday!