Water changes

[spit.fire]

Is there anyone out there who never does water changes? How are your corals doing?

[dc4]

I stopped doing water changes 6 months ago and everything is doing great. I only add ro water to compensate for evaporation. I also over feed but have over 50 snails of different types and run chaeto in my fuge and overflow.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

[MarkoD]

I stopped doing water changes 6 months ago and everything is doing great. I only add ro water to compensate for evaporation. I also over feed but have over 50 snails of different types and run chaeto in my fuge and overflow.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

Me too. I just use cheato. Corals great

[Timbits]

Do you guys dose?

[Ryan]

IMO water changes are essential, especially in small tanks and tanks with a lot of coral.

I think alot of crashes come from people getting lazy and complacent with how their reef is doing so they slack on water changes. Trace elements we dont dose get used up, are not being replaced, and the tank crashes.

[Nano]

Me too. I just use cheato. Corals great

yeah but the clams are looking ticked. chaeto removes phosphates and nitrates etc. but your corals are removing a lot of the calcium and what not, so doing WC is essential. I am running chaeto in my new tank, but still do a weekly WC only about 10% but its enough to keep everything in check.

[Lampshade]

I didn't do any for a year, everything was doing great. Undetectable nitrates and phosphates <0.05ppm. I started doing them after I had a crash from carbon, still can't get my nitrates <10ppm. Here's a pic of my tank just before the crash:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p63/mikey_is_me_bucket/PB142501.jpg

[sphelps]

A tank can be successful without water changes, there is no doubt. However to be successful it requires experience and should be left the more advanced aquarists. It's not something that should be pursued by someone less experienced looking for a easier route.

[daniella3d]

what about calcium? alkalinity? a tank without water change need to be dosed for these and trace elements.

I sometimes go a month and half without water change and my corals were doing fantastic but I dose every day and I feed my coral with vitamines and amino acids.

[Aquattro]

Why would anyone NOT do regular water changes??

[Aquaria]

what about calcium? alkalinity? a tank without water change need to be dosed for these and trace elements.

I sometimes go a month and half without water change and my corals were doing fantastic but I dose every day and I feed my coral with vitamines and amino acids.

Ya you would think wc would be easier to do then constent dosing iv considered no w/c but after a few weeks I get sick of daily dosing would much rather mix up some water once a week to biweekly and call her done lol

[Corbin]

Why would anyone NOT do regular water changes??

because we get good results by not doing so?

i do water changes and get massive cyano out breaks, i dont do water changes i get no alage or cyano and corals happy as clowns
i still do them, just not as often as 'recommended'

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

The way I see it,after trying both routes (water changes every month and going 6 months without it)I f you like your corals to grow and florish you should have a regulated water changes to simply replenish the ions removed by the inhabitants (not only your Calcium,magnesium,alkalinity)
Every situation is different as in mine I do water changes every 3 months or so simply because entire water volume in my system at the moment is over 400glns and only medium load in a 180glns display and if you know your tank and its inhabitants well some of your corals will let you know when to do a water change as in my system my neon finger leather lets me know same as some of my SPS.My 2c:biggrin:

[Aquaria]

because we get good results by not doing so?

i do water changes and get massive cyano out breaks, i dont do water changes i get no alage or cyano and corals happy as clowns
i still do them, just not as often as 'recommended'

?? How does that work lol. I had cyano n algae and i beat it off with consistent w/c. Are you not using rodi water? Sounds like your adding nutrients with ur water

[Aquaria]

Also my pistol shrimp only molts after a w/c and adding iodine seems like a waste since its sucked out of the water quite fast and again just another thing to dose

[dc4]

Do you guys dose?

I dose tlf 2-part, iodine, and vodka.

[FragIt Dan]

Dosing for me is taken care of by my dosing pumps, all non-conservative elements are dosed/ measured/ adjusted, my nitrates and phosphates are 0 and 0.03ppm and I have ATO with RODI. Corals grow great, colors are solid. Question... do you think I am doing regular water changes? Do you think I need to do regular water changes? Why/why not?


FragIt Dan

[Aquaria]

Dosing for me is taken care of by my dosing pumps, all non-conservative elements are dosed/ measured/ adjusted, my nitrates and phosphates are 0 and 0.03ppm and I have ATO with RODI. Corals grow great, colors are solid. Question... do you think I am doing regular water changes? Do you think I need to do regular water changes? Why/why not?


FragIt Dan

All u hear is money money and more money lol i run a minimal nano setup so I have to do w/c just to save time and money on dosing n chems. Honestly though my next setup is going to have all the gear to enable me to do less w/c with less dosing hassle

[FragIt Dan]

All u hear is money money and more money lol i run a minimal nano setup so I have to do w/c just to save time and money on dosing n chems. Honestly though my next setup is going to have all the gear to enable me to do less w/c with less dosing hassle

My hobby pays for itself... Wanna buy some corals :) I run 4 isolated systems totaling >400g twv... daily decrease of Ca is 20ppm and dKh is 1.5 degrees. Water changes won't keep up with my dosing requirements. I started out small and grew slowly: like 22 years of growing, so money spending has been spread out and lately has been subsidized. My mom runs a nano and despite having unlimited access to all supplements and test kits, I tell her a 10% weekly water change will take care of all of her needs with, by FAR, the least amount of work. Wish it was the same for me ;).


FragIt Dan

[Aquaria]

My hobby pays for itself... Wanna buy some corals :) I run 4 isolated systems totaling >400g twv... daily decrease of Ca is 20ppm and dKh is 1.5 degrees. Water changes won't keep up with my dosing requirements. I started out small and grew slowly: like 22 years of growing, so money spending has been spread out and lately has been subsidized. My mom runs a nano and despite having unlimited access to all supplements and test kits, I tell her a 10% weekly water change will take care of all of her needs with, by FAR, the least amount of work. Wish it was the same for me ;).


FragIt Dan

Lol i can see that haha even with weekly w/c by the next one u would have no calc or alk and i assume other trace elements would be quite low or non existent sounds like a nightmare lol my next tank is going to be max 100g DT will be 60g prob could still get away with just w/c in my case :p

[The Grizz]

Why would anyone NOT do regular water changes??

Because there septic tank can't handle that much extra water going down the drain every week or 2 :biggrin:

I have only really done maybe 4 WC on the big tank in 2 years mind you I don't have any SPS in there either.

[Finisher604]

I change 20 gallons every week in my 125 mixed reef, sounds like I am going over board compaired to everyone else.

[mohammadali]

i have a small tank i change the water once a week but my corals r beeen really healthy and growing well i like em my torch got very big and frog spawn

[BlueTang<3]

I think if it as if you were trapped in a closed system, say your bath tub and crapped it in every day and so did your neighbour you cant tell me there would not be things building up in there we could not test for or know about.

I have tried going with limited water changes and 40 gallons every two weeks, it looks like a different tank when i do regular water changes. The colours are way brighter, growth is noticeable better and corals are hardier when we keep up on our water changes.

[Aquattro]

I change 50g every 2 weeks in my 180. My tank is doing pretty good. IMO, changing water is the single most important thing you can do for tank maintenance. The only two reasons I can see for not changing water is A. laziness, or B. being cheap. Neither of these are good qualities for reefkeeping.

[Aquattro]

I change 20 gallons every week in my 125 mixed reef, sounds like I am going over board compaired to everyone else.

You would probably be better off doing 40g every other week. You'll dilute nutrients more with larger changes. But no, not overboard, you're taking proper care of your tank. Good for you!

[Aquattro]

Because there septic tank can't handle that much extra water going down the drain every week or 2 :biggrin:


Then dump it in your driveway, or your gravel pit, or run a hose to the road.

[fishytime]

I change 50g every 2 weeks in my 180. My tank is doing pretty good. IMO, changing water is the single most important thing you can do for tank maintenance. The only two reasons I can see for not changing water is A. laziness, or B. being cheap. Neither of these are good qualities for reefkeeping.

+1.......well said.....way more elements and minerals get replaced when we do a w/c then just the big three that most of us think about....

[blue dragon]

I think if it as if you were trapped in a closed system, say your bath tub and crapped it in every day and so did your neighbour you cant tell me there would not be things building up in there we could not test for or know about.

I have tried going with limited water changes and 40 gallons every two weeks, it looks like a different tank when i do regular water changes. The colours are way brighter, growth is noticeable better and corals are hardier when we keep up on our water changes.
im new to reefing, and limited water changes with dosing or maximum water changes with out dosing, is that what your saying?

[Millepora_Maniac]

+1

Why would anyone NOT do regular water changes??

Ohhh the humanity! how long could you breathe the same air if you were trapped in a box?:wink:

[Proteus]

I stoped for a while but found with a 45 gallon every two weeks I had less worry and less dosing. It's a hour of my time. Well worth the reward

[e46er]

I change around 40 gal every 2 weeks in my tank - overkill probably but it's easy maintaince and I feel is worth it

I have a tee hooked up to my closed loop pump so I run a hose outside and open the valve- watch tv for 5-8 min shut valve and plug in a mag 9 which is on my 55 gal mixing bucket watch more tv unplug pump and done
I made it simple so it wasn't a hassle to do so I would actually do it

[ReefOcean]

Who here is lazy with the water changes? I haven't done one in 3 months. The first month was just laziness but since there was no changes in my water quality (I still test, dose and top off daily) I decided to keep it going as a little lazy experiment. Upon searching the web, it appears I am far from alone. Many people go months...years..without doing a water changes.

Keep in mind, I have one fish in about 50 total gallons of water. I have a sump with more LR and macro algae and everything in my tank is pretty mature (rock is about 4 years old even though the tank relatively new). I have seen some posts, where people claim they have a much higher bioload and still maintain perfectly healthy SPS colonies with zero water changes for an extended period of time.

Who else does this?

[sphelps]

Do we really need multiple threads going at the same time for the same discussion?

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=83653

[ReefOcean]

My bad, didn't look before I posted. What are the odds.

[muck]

Do we really need multiple threads going at the same time for the same discussion?

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=83653

Threads merged...

[Aquattro]

Threads merged...

That explains some of my confusion :razz:

[muck]

That explains some of my confusion :razz:
And the rest? :lol:

[Aquattro]

And the rest? :lol:

genetics...:)

[ReefOcean]

+1



Ohhh the humanity! how long could you breathe the same air if you were trapped in a box?:wink:



If there is biological reactions inside that box that are transforming carbon dioxide back to oxygen with high efficiency you could be stuck in there for an extended period of time.

[sphelps]

If there is biological reactions inside that box that are transforming carbon dioxide back to oxygen with high efficiency you could be stuck in there for an extended period of time.
There are always bio-products to such reactions.

[Aquattro]

If there is biological reactions inside that box that are transforming carbon dioxide back to oxygen with high efficiency you could be stuck in there for an extended period of time.

If the smell didn't kill you, sure :razz:

And if urine and feces were invisibly merged with this oxygen, then that's good too, right? Water changes are the easiest and simplest form of keeping water quality up. Why would you be that lazy?

[ReefOcean]

If the smell didn't kill you, sure :razz:

And if urine and feces were invisibly merged with this oxygen, then that's good too, right? Water changes are the easiest and simplest form of keeping water quality up. Why would you be that lazy?

Well, i was just adressing the "air" aspect of his analogy. As for bioload, that can be neutralized by other biological/chemical reations. I am not advocating not doing water changes but I beg the question, when waste is negligible and bological processes in the aquarium or efficient, is it acceptable to be lazy on the water changes? Is this a old -he said she said- "requirement" that has been passed around aquarists and ingrained into their heads as "rules"?

[Aquattro]

Well, i was just adressing the "air" aspect of his analogy. As for bioload, that can be neutralized by other biological/chemical reations. I am not advocating not doing water changes but I beg the question, when waste is negligible and bological processes in the aquarium or efficient, is it acceptable to be lazy on the water changes? Is this a old -he said she said- "requirement" that has been passed around aquarists and ingrained into their heads as "rules"?

Sure, I think the less load you have, the longer you can walk that line. But why? Changing water is simple. It's good for the fish. It's good for the corals. It's good all round. So why do we not want to change water?
I maintain it's lazy/cheap. And if so, then this is the wrong hobby.

[sphelps]

Well, i was just adressing the "air" aspect of his analogy. As for bioload, that can be neutralized by other biological/chemical reations. I am not advocating not doing water changes but I beg the question, when waste is negligible and bological processes in the aquarium or efficient, is it acceptable to be lazy on the water changes? Is this a old -he said she said- "requirement" that has been passed around aquarists and ingrained into their heads as "rules"?

How is bio-load neutralized? There are always bio-products and elements needed for every reaction. For example and in simple terms raw organics eventually turn to nitrates and phosphates, how are these removed? Chemical filtration removes many trace elements and refugiums will also use up elements such as iron and iodine. These have to be replaced but for the average hobbyist they are virtually impossible to test for accurately. You also have to think long term, perhaps a tank will do fine for a long period of time as the elements slowly deplete as livestock adapts and it can handle a certain amount of stress unfazed but then levels fall below critical and things start to go wrong. Clueless on what exactly is issue is you begin bringing up levels but doing so too quickly results in even more stress perhaps even enough for some livestock to call it quits and dramatic changes in chemistry can cause all sorts of problems like algae outbreaks.

Can it be done, sure but I think it takes more experience than most of us have in order to avoid screwing yourself in the long run. There's no doubt I could stop water changes for months without issue but eventually things will probably go bad and then going back could make things worse. Dosing would help but if you can't test for it knowing exactly what's needed is next to impossible. Constant water changes insures stability overall and IMO is key to long term success.

[ReefOcean]

Sure, I think the less load you have, the longer you can walk that line. But why? Changing water is simple. It's good for the fish. It's good for the corals. It's good all round. So why do we not want to change water?

If all of my perameters are good, how is it more benifical to do frequent water changes. I know it is 'good', but how is it benificial? I am talking about diminished returns here.


I maintain it's lazy/cheap. And if so, then this is the wrong hobby.
Cheapness/laziness might just mean "to do what is required and only required"?

[sphelps]

If all of my perameters are good, how is it more benifical to do frequent water changes. I know it is 'good', but how is it benificial? I am talking about diminished returns here.


Cheapness/laziness might just mean "to do what is required and only required"?

What parameters, how you read the ingredients in synthetic salt mix before?

[ReefOcean]

How is bio-load neutralized? There are always bio-products and elements needed for every reaction. For example and in simple terms raw organics eventually turn to nitrates and phosphates, how are these removed? Chemical filtration removes many trace elements and refugiums will also use up elements such as iron and iodine. These have to be replaced but for the average hobbyist they are virtually impossible to test for accurately. You also have to think long term, perhaps a tank will do fine for a long period of time as the elements slowly deplete as livestock adapts and it can handle a certain amount of stress unfazed but then levels fall below critical and things start to go wrong. Clueless on what exactly is issue is you begin bringing up levels but doing so too quickly results in even more stress perhaps even enough for some livestock to call it quits and dramatic changes in chemistry can cause all sorts of problems like algae outbreaks.

Can it be done, sure but I think it takes more experience than most of us have in order to avoid screwing yourself in the long run. There's no doubt I could stop water changes for months without issue but eventually things will probably go bad and then going back could make things worse. Dosing would help but if you can't test for it knowing exactly what's needed is next to impossible. Constant water changes insures stability overall and IMO is key to long term success.

Well put. I might add however, that we can know EXACLTY what our water is putting into the aquarium so logically, we can adjust for it.

For example and in simple terms raw organics eventually turn to nitrates and phosphates, how are these removed

Chemical/biological/mechanical filtration.

[Aquattro]

If all of my perameters are good, how is it more benifical to do frequent water changes. I know it is 'good', but how is it benificial? I am talking about diminished returns here.


Cheapness/laziness might just mean "to do what is required and only required"?

Water changes replenish all the elements used by the system. The salt has dozens of components, and you only replace Ca and CaO3, maybe Mg. What about the rest? It's there for a reason. Reefs need strontium, potassium, etc. you don't replace those. While minimal, they're essential (they wouldn't just add it for fun). It also dilutes the DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) that affect the life in the tank.

Again, my question is why not do a water change?

[ReefOcean]

What parameters, how you read the ingredients in synthetic salt mix before?

I can't say i have ever read it, no

[ReefOcean]

Water changes replenish all the elements used by the system. The salt has dozens of components, and you only replace Ca and CaO3, maybe Mg. What about the rest? It's there for a reason. Reefs need strontium, potassium, etc. you don't replace those. While minimal, they're essential (they wouldn't just add it for fun). It also dilutes the DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) that affect the life in the tank.

Again, my question is why not do a water change?

Fair enough but you can dose them. People dose Calcium right? Almost everybody with SPS...

I didn't do water changes just to see what would happen to my parameters. Just like I used a crappy Chinese LED unit to see if I could grow SPS. To see for myself.

My hypothesis being, that the stringent water change practices people promote are circumstatial and hearsay. I do agree that water changes do have merrit and in most cases required at least once and a while.

You call me lazy, but stocking a system that can't support itself would be considered what?

[e46er]

I can't say i have ever read it, no

You should

[Aquattro]

You call me lazy, but stocking a system that can't support itself would be considered what?

I don't understand your question...

The best I can guess is you'd call it a closed system. Which requires keeper intervention. Fish don't feed themselves in the tank, you add food. The tank doesn't heat itself, you add heat. The tank doesn't clean itself, that's your job...

[ReefOcean]

I don't understand your question...

The best I can guess is you'd call it a closed system. Which requires keeper intervention. Fish don't feed themselves in the tank, you add food. The tank doesn't heat itself, you add heat. The tank doesn't clean itself, that's your job...


Keepign a system that can't sustain itself (at least substatially)and requires constant water changes due to bioload would be considered irresponsible, at least by me. I guess the different being is what you are going for, a pretty display tank with way to much livestock to show off to guests, or a more realistic enclosed bio-system ( to a degree)

[ReefOcean]

You should


why

[tim the toolman]

Water changes are basically fish keeping 101. And as long as you are going to be considered a responsible fish keeper you should be doing water changes. I'm certain that if we drastically reduced the essentials in your day to day life (food, oxygen) you would not die but your quality of life would definitely decrease. Just because the fish in a system are not dying does not mean they are living happily.

[ReefOcean]

I should also add (without trying to force this thread in multiple directions) is that you can achieve some of those things you have described to a degree. Stocking fish that eat stuff that grows in your aquariam, living in a hot climate, having a clean up crew... are all things that can help wirth the enclosed system. Obviously, and it is a big obviously, there are still many things you need to do to maintain the tank like clean equipments, suppliment feeding here and there....

[ReefOcean]

Water changes are basically fish keeping 101. And as long as you are going to be considered a responsible fish keeper you should be doing water changes. I'm certain that if we drastically reduced the essentials in your day to day life (food, oxygen) you would not die but your quality of life would definitely decrease. Just because the fish in a system are not dying does not mean they are living happily.

I find that most opinions that come out of this hobby, turn to facts very quickly. When you have 1 expert for every 5 million novices, it tends to happen virally

[MarkoD]

I should also add (without trying to force this thread in multiple directions) is that you can achieve some of those things you have described to a degree. Stocking fish that eat stuff that grows in your aquariam, living in a hot climate, having a clean up crew... are all things that can help wirth the enclosed system. Obviously, and it is a big obviously, there are still many things you need to do to maintain the tank like clean equipments, suppliment feeding here and there....

dont even bother. some of these people are old and stubborn and cant accept alternative methods of doing things. they believe in weekly or biweekly water changes and you cant change their mind. just give up

[sphelps]

Well put. I might add however, that we can know EXACLTY what our water is putting into the aquarium so logically, we can adjust for it.

Chemical/biological/mechanical filtration.

Logically yes, practically no. It's not as easy as you might think, IMO water changes will be easier and cheaper.

Like I said after the rhetorical question biological makes bio-products and chemical removes more than you might think.

If you're lazy you can make an auto water changing system pretty easy, completely automated if you have a conductivity controller. My formula is simple lazy+$=success not lazy=success.

[MarkoD]

oh and dont bother with analogies. people here take them literally

[Aquattro]

oh and dont bother with analogies. people here take them literally

Shouldn't you be off saving some clams??

[Zoaelite]

Shouldn't you be off saving some clams??

He solved that problem, back to trolling :lol:.

[MarkoD]

Shouldn't you be off saving some clams??

the clams are not dying as you suggested. and im going to hold off on the freshwater dip and see what happens in the next couple of hours

[MarkoD]

He solved that problem, back to trolling :lol:.

just because i disagree with the popular opinion im trolling?

[Aquattro]

Where did I put that box of snakes......

[MarkoD]

Where did I put that box of snakes......

you still havent explained why snakes would attack only me in a room of people.

[sphelps]

just because i disagree with the popular opinion im trolling?

No but not adding anything relevant to a discussion in hopes of stirring something up does

[tim the toolman]

Lol......this sure did take a turn for the hateful. It seems to be that people are happy to take the lazy route and have success, while others don't mind putting in the effort and also have success. So I guess everyone is right in their own mind. And as long as people are happy with their own systems what's the harm. I would just say to people who are going to remain closed minded that asking for help is a little foolish if it is only to spit in the faces of the helpful.

[Lampshade]

If you ware using a calcium reactor how is it any different than natural seawater replacing minerals? The trace elements are in the media, since it is dead coral. If i was dosing i would be doing lots of water changes to reduce the "extra" elements you are adding with the 2 part mixes.

The way i see it is if you have a big enough balanced system(well cycled, 0 nitrates/phosphates) then all you're doing in a water change is taking out "live" water full of beneficial bacteria, and replacing it with "dead" water. Why don't we change live rock over time? In theory it should have the same degradation as the water and buildup of unwanted elements.

I'm not wanting to full out say they're bad, lots of people do them, lots don't. Just putting forward something smarter lazy/cheap reefing. I've tried both ways, found that my tank stayed more balanced when i didn't do them.

[Zoaelite]

Question:
just because i disagree with the popular opinion im trolling?

Answer:
oh and dont bother with analogies. people here take them literally

dont even bother. some of these people are old and stubborn and cant accept alternative methods of doing things. they believe in weekly or biweekly water changes and you cant change their mind. just...

well that was just loads of fun. wonder whos gonna win

My example was an exaggeration. I don't like being told what to do. I have the ability to research and draw my own ideas. And if someone doesn't agree I don't care.
I don't know what the connection...

I'd like to politely add that I'm gonna do whatever I like with my money. If I want to buy 20 moorish idols That's my business. And I'd like to politely ask you to not reply to my threads. I dont...

So be it. If I fail and everything does then I'll have an expensive fowlr and I'll get myself a clown trigger.

I really don't want a lecture. I set this tank up the way I think works best for me...

I can keep going, thats like page 1 of your 62 page post summary.

[ReefOcean]

dont even bother. some of these people are old and stubborn and cant accept alternative methods of doing things. they believe in weekly or biweekly water changes and you cant change their mind. just give up

The whole "LED's will never work craze of '07" and the "watts per gallon" thing that still goes on are fine examples of people just parroting second hand information and living by it in a very partisan fashion.

[MarkoD]

Lol......this sure did take a turn for the hateful. It seems to be that people are happy to take the lazy route and have success, while others don't mind putting in the effort and also have success. So I guess everyone is right in their own mind. And as long as people are happy with their own systems what's the harm. I would just say to people who are going to remain closed minded that asking for help is a little foolish if it is only to spit in the faces of the helpful.

the matter of fact is that every tank is different. and there are a million factors that contribute to the outcome.

i agree that without a way of nutrient export, waterchanges are really the only way to go. but if someone is having success using an algae scrubber, refugium, prodibio, zeo, or whatever else, why is that the bad or lazy way of doing it?

[ReefOcean]

Logically yes, practically no. It's not as easy as you might think, IMO water changes will be easier and cheaper.

Like I said after the rhetorical question biological makes bio-products and chemical removes more than you might think.

If you're lazy you can make an auto water changing system pretty easy, completely automated if you have a conductivity controller. My formula is simple lazy+$=success not lazy=success.

How is dumping a capful of dose into the tank once a month less practical than mixing and lugging around buckets of water?

Liek I said, it started off as a matter of being lazy (or very busy) but now it is a matter of "why?" Why do it if I don't have to.

[Lampshade]

The whole "LED's will never work craze of '07" and the "watts per gallon" thing that still goes on are fine examples of people just parroting second hand information and living by it in a very partisan fashion.

You forgot turnover rate, sump size, return size and many other reefing "guidelines" we live by :P

[Aquattro]

Lol......this sure did take a turn for the hateful. It seems to be that people are happy to take the lazy route and have success, while others don't mind putting in the effort and also have success. So I guess everyone is right in their own mind. And as long as people are happy with their own systems what's the harm. I would just say to people who are going to remain closed minded that asking for help is a little foolish if it is only to spit in the faces of the helpful.

Well said. Yes, a tank can be kept without doing water changes. For how long, I'm not sure. Most people don't keep their tank long enough to prove either way. I compare it to feeding my dog. I can feed Purina crap, or a real meat diet. It's well documented that dogs fed real food (or people for that matter) live longer more vigorous lives. I believe the same applies to my reef. If I want an amazing reef, I need to be an amazing reefkeeper, which to me holds certain standards (like changing water). I believe my reef will be amazing for many years because of it.
In all honesty, I don't care who changes water or who doesn't. Someone asked, seeking validation to not do something, I offered my thoughts to hopefully help them make decision. I believe they will have a better reef, for longer, by doing partial and frequent water changes. They can choose to do it or not. If not, no skin off my butt.
But....be honest about why you don't want to change it. Don't make up stuff to validate or hide the fact that you just don't want to expend the effort, or the money for salt. Other than that, I cannot think of any reason why one would not do water changes.

[MarkoD]

Question:


Answer:












I can keep going, thats like page 1 of your 62 page post summary.

i troll because i refuse to be talked down to by someone with more posts and more "experience". i dont care if i have to be the bad guy. that chitons topic for POTM was stupid, and i have no problem say it

[tim the toolman]

Not saying lazy is the best word I was just using the go to wording that was being kicked around this thread. I was just merely saying that some go one way others try something different and both are proving to be successful. I just wouldn't fight that fight yet until you know what's killing your clams.

[Aquattro]

Why don't we change live rock over time? In theory it should have the same degradation as the water and buildup of unwanted elements.

.
For one, it's cost prohibitive. Two, you have to dismantle your tank. but yes, you probably should change rock every 5 years or so, should you actully keep a tank going that long.

[ReefOcean]

Lol......this sure did take a turn for the hateful. It seems to be that people are happy to take the lazy route and have success, while others don't mind putting in the effort and also have success. So I guess everyone is right in their own mind. And as long as people are happy with their own systems what's the harm. I would just say to people who are going to remain closed minded that asking for help is a little foolish if it is only to spit in the faces of the helpful.

I still don't see how it is lazy. Because you label it as such?

And true, I have asked for help. Aquattro has giving me advice many times on this forum that i have used and i appreciate it. But that doesn't mean there arent alternatives to look at. It doesn't make you guys my superiors.

[ReefOcean]

You forgot turnover rate, sump size, return size and many other reefing "guidelines" we live by :P

My bad. The list goes on :lol:

[Aquattro]

i troll because i refuse to be talked down to by someone with more posts and more "experience". i dont care if i have to be the bad guy. that chitons topic for POTM was stupid, and i have no problem say it

You refuse perfectly good advice, because you're stubborn. And I think the Chiton thing was awesome, Denny is gonna win with a great photo. Now stop hijacking this thread, whatever it's about now :)

Levi, go open a troll thread in the lounge or something.

[ReefOcean]

For one, it's cost prohibitive. Two, you have to dismantle your tank. but yes, you probably should change rock every 5 years or so, should you actully keep a tank going that long.

Maybe change it every year? Shall I set a standard and spread it around like wildfire...

Change 10 percent of your rock once per year. Set in stone. No debating pls.

[tim the toolman]

I am very new to this hobby (just over a year) so I definitely do not think I am superior nor do I think you are lazy. I just find these circular logic type threads amusing is all. So I will tag along And add my 2 cents as I feel. Not to be argumentative but because I think this site is a wealth of knowledge and information but it can also be a fun way to do a little fish geeking.

[MarkoD]

Well said. Yes, a tank can be kept without doing water changes. For how long, I'm not sure. Most people don't keep their tank long enough to prove either way. I compare it to feeding my dog. I can feed Purina crap, or a real meat diet. It's well documented that dogs fed real food (or people for that matter) live longer more vigorous lives. I believe the same applies to my reef. If I want an amazing reef, I need to be an amazing reefkeeper, which to me holds certain standards (like changing water). I believe my reef will be amazing for many years because of it.
In all honesty, I don't care who changes water or who doesn't. Someone asked, seeking validation to not do something, I offered my thoughts to hopefully help them make decision. I believe they will have a better reef, for longer, by doing partial and frequent water changes. They can choose to do it or not. If not, no skin off my butt.
But....be honest about why you don't want to change it. Don't make up stuff to validate or hide the fact that you just don't want to expend the effort, or the money for salt. Other than that, I cannot think of any reason why one would not do water changes.

i also dont agree with "never" doing water changes. but doing weekly or biweekly water changes requires a time commitment and the facility to do so (containers)

for me to do a substantial waterchange (50 gallons):

i would have to find a 50 gallon container, wait 24 hours for the RO/DI to fill it up, mix the salt (which i have 1000 gallons worth from boxing day), wait for it to mix.

Then remove everything from my sump, vacuum the detritus, pump out the water.

Then pump the fresh water in, allow the temp to match the water in the display and then turn on the pumps again.

honestly this could take a couple hours. i work a full time job, i run a business, i photograph all nhl home games. on nights when theres a game i leave my house at 8am, work all day at my job, then go straight to the arena to setup for the game and i wont be home till 11:30pm

and on the nights when i do come home at 4 and i have nothing else, i would usually like to hang out with my girlfriend over doing water changes.

[ReefOcean]

So getting off topic here, let's rehash

My point is that if operate your aquarium in a manner where bioload can be efficiently dealt with, water changes can be suspended for months at a time. In an ideal situation (and it has been done) you can suspend water changes for perhaps years.

We pretty much have established a need for dosing but besides that, I have seen no meaningful rebuttals. Except for the fact I am lazy and wrong.

[Aquattro]

I still don't see how it is lazy. Because you label it as such?

And true, I have asked for help. Aquattro has giving me advice many times on this forum that i have used and i appreciate it. But that doesn't mean there arent alternatives to look at. It doesn't make you guys my superiors.

Sorry if that's the tone you're reading, it's not my intention. I'm certainly no smarter or wiser than you, maybe I've been doing this a bit longer, but that's it. It's difficult to discuss this in a thread environment, it would be better at the pub where we could yell and stuff :)
There are lots of alternatives to many things, I just believe closed systems have a finite lifespan, and water changes prolong that life. But as I said, most reefers don't keep their tanks setup for that lifespan, so we can't prove this either way.
For me, my fish are my pets. My corals are a huge investment in time and money, and I want to do the very best to keep them as vigorous as I possibly can. I feel I do this best by changing water often. People come to my house and say "wow" a lot, so I figure it's working. But if you're reef is fine, then so be it. It will still probably live longer than you're going to keep it going anyway, statistically. But what I am suggesting is that your fine reef might be even finer if you changed water.

[sphelps]

How is dumping a capful of dose into the tank once a month less practical than mixing and lugging around buckets of water?

Liek I said, it started off as a matter of being lazy (or very busy) but now it is a matter of "why?" Why do it if I don't have to.

Because you're only replenishing, what if a certain element isn't being used and you keep adding it, it will become a containment. Water changes not only replenish they also reduce the concentration is anything elevated above norm.

Like others have said it's up to the owner to decide what's best for them. Do some research away from unrepeatable sources claiming this and that and make a decision based on what your believe will produce the most success while keeping the efforts in your comfort zone.

Here's a general link worth reading:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

[ReefOcean]

i also dont agree with "never" doing water changes. but doing weekly or biweekly water changes requires a time commitment and the facility to do so (containers)



Reasonably so. I have stated as well that I don't disagree with water changes. My point is under the right cicumstances, you don't need to that often.

[Aquattro]

Maybe change it every year? Shall I set a standard and spread it around like wildfire...

Change 10 percent of your rock once per year. Set in stone. No debating pls.

Now you're just spouting off. Rock is known to accumulate nutrients over time, contributing to old tank syndrome, just like deep sand beds. I read it on the Internet.
Now it seems to me most, if not all of your questions have been answered, but you don't acknowledge them. We've been debating, and providing rebuttals to your comments (and poking doodles) all day long.

[Aquattro]

Reasonably so. I have stated as well that I don't disagree with water changes. My point is under the right cicumstances, you don't need to that often.

I guess my reasoning is that we cannot measure or account for the right circumstances, so to err on the side of caution, I change water. It's like fresh air to the critters, removes excess nutrients that I can't measure outside a lab, and replaces the things used I didn't even know were there.

[Aquattro]

I have to take a break, my head hurts :) Back later.

[ReefOcean]

Now you're just spouting off. Rock is known to accumulate nutrients over time, contributing to old tank syndrome, just like deep sand beds. I read it on the Internet.
Now it seems to me most, if not all of your questions have been answered, but you don't acknowledge them. We've been debating, and providing rebuttals to your comments (and poking doodles) all day long.

No, I am not spouting off. I am formulating "techniques" that become "requirements" the same way other reefers do. I am aware of the live rock situation, I am just creating "guidelines" to how to deal with it.


Yes, my question regarding if anybody else does it is answered. Which of course in NO. Why? Because that is what the've been taught by "beginners 101"....

[ReefOcean]

Because you're only replenishing, what if a certain element isn't being used and you keep adding it, it will become a containment. Water changes not only replenish they also reduce the concentration is anything elevated above norm.

If you do a water change, are you not adding that element as well?



Like others have said it's up to the owner to decide what's best for them. Do some research away from unrepeatable sources claiming this and that and make a decision based on what your believe will produce the most success while keeping the efforts in your comfort zone.

Here is the thing. I did it myself. I didn't read about it and follow others. There was a decision making process. I weighed the negatives. I tested the parameters and monitored it. I kept the bioload low, and dosed accordingly.

[ReefOcean]

I guess my reasoning is that we cannot measure or account for the right circumstances, so to err on the side of caution, I change water. It's like fresh air to the critters, removes excess nutrients that I can't measure outside a lab, and replaces the things used I didn't even know were there.

That logic isn't sound. If you can't account for the premise IE water quality, and conclusion IE doing water changes or suspending water changes is moot.

If that is what you mean..

But you can reasonably account for the conditions and circumstances through water testing and monitoring the health of your livestock. You can control the system by limiting bioload and having the proper biological and mechanical filtration in place.

[Aquattro]

But you can reasonably account for the conditions and circumstances through water testing and monitoring the health of your livestock. You can control the system by limiting bioload and having the proper biological and mechanical filtration in place.

At the very core of this statement, we disagree. We aren't going to convince each other. Let's revisit in 5 years. :)

[sphelps]

If you do a water change, are you not adding that element as well?

Here is the thing. I did it myself. I didn't read about it and follow others. There was a decision making process. I weighed the negatives. I tested the parameters and monitored it. I kept the bioload low, and dosed accordingly.

Really?? not sure I can explain any better, read the link dude, you'll learn something. Until then you're just wasting everyone's time.

[ReefOcean]

At the very core of this statement, we disagree. We aren't going to convince each other. Let's revisit in 5 years. :)

If you are implying I wont do a water change in 5 years, hell yes I will :lol:

In fact, I was planning to do one this weekened because of salanity loss due to salt creep but I would like to keep the spirit of this alive and will only change 5 gallons.

[Aquattro]

If you are implying I wont do a water change in 5 years, hell yes I will :lol:

In fact, I was planning to do one this weekened because of salanity loss due to salt creep but I would like to keep the spirit of this alive and will only change 5 gallons.

No, I'm implying I'm tired and can't do this anymore, and maybe 5 years from now I'll have more energy :)

[ReefOcean]

Really?? not sure I can explain any better, read the link dude, you'll learn something. Until then you're just wasting everyone's time.

I skimmed it. Don't use epsen salts? The "removal" section was a little short

[sphelps]

I skimmed it. Don't use epsen salts? The "removal" section was a little short

"I skimmed it. don't use epsen salts" lol classic.

[ReefOcean]

"I skimmed it. I don't use epsen salts" lol classic.

Well perhaps you can point me to the specific part of the huge article you want me to read. "I have a rebuttal, but read this novel to figure it out." This is like that law and order episode, when they subpoena some documents so the suspects place it inside 400 banker boxes filled with other documents and turn it all over. Here ya go, find it.

[The Grizz]

Unsubscribed do to to much ............................. ( can't say it here but you get the picture )

[Aquattro]

Unsubscribed do to to much ............................. ( can't say it here but you get the picture )

You subscribe to these things?? That's insane!

[The Grizz]

You subscribe to these things?? That's insane!

You calling me crazy Mr. :crazyeye:

[sphelps]

Well perhaps you can point me to the specific part of the huge article you want me to read. "I have a rebuttal, but read this novel to figure it out." This is like that law and order episode, when they subpoena some documents so the suspects place it inside 400 banker boxes filled with other documents and turn it all over. Here ya go, find it.

It's for your own personal gain, not to support either side of the discussion. You obviously lack the basic concepts so it's a good read and it's smaller than this rather pointless thread.

[Aquattro]

You calling me crazy Mr. :crazyeye:

right period.

[MarkoD]

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/the-dar-thursday-42.jpg

[ReefOcean]

It's for your own personal gain, not to support either side of the discussion. You obviously lack the basic concepts so it's a good read and it's smaller than this rather pointless thread.

You essentially say "you are wrong" , then provide some article and then give no further direction. Appeal to tradition is a fallacy. Just because it is the way it is usually done, doesn't make it always right.

From what I gathered from that article, the things a water change depletes can be controlled, minimized and even kept out of the system all together....

Unless of course you can provide me with something...which you won't.

You also trivialize this thread (rather un-objectively) by saying it is pointless, but you can't even provide an adequate aregument aside from "everybody else does it".

[tim the toolman]

I guess I should ask how old your system is. It may have been previously stated but I forget by now.

[sphelps]

You essentially say "you are wrong" , then provide some article and then give no further direction. Appeal to tradition is a fallacy. Just because it is the way it is usually done, doesn't make it always right.

From what I gathered from that article, the things a water change depletes can be controlled, minimized and even kept out of the system all together....

Unless of course you can provide me with something...which you won't.

You also trivialize this thread (rather un-objectively) by saying it is pointless, but you can't even provide an adequate aregument aside from "everybody else does it".
Hmmm I don't recall saying you're wrong, you asked a question and I answered it. The link was just general info on the subject which I insisted you read after you failed to understand the concept of how removing & replacing water reduces contaminants. Just look at one of the last graphs for example, the one regarding sulphur build up. In addition to sulphur many other elements and contaminants will act the same. Without water changes what is your plan to deal with such contaminants?

[dc4]

This is getting to be a pretty heated discussion, how about we add some tangs into the mix... How many times should we do water changes in a 20g with 3 tangs? :eek:

On a more serious note, Im getting nice growth from everything in my tank and have so for the last 6 months since moving to a larger system and not doing regular water changes. I did weekly water changes before that and honestly had more issues with water changes. Now with a large cleanup crew and my sump and overflow stuffed with macro algae, everything looks happier than ever. Though i do add more than a salt bucket full of ro water every week do to evaporation.

I do a minor 5-10g water change when i clean out my sump though, which includes cleaning out my skimmer, carbon, and phosban reactor but thats every few months, lol.

I think my vodka doing is a big help as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

[ReefOcean]

Hmmm I don't recall saying you're wrong, you asked a question and I answered it. The link was just general info on the subject which I insisted you read after you failed to understand the concept of how removing & replacing water reduces contaminants. Just look at one of the last graphs for example, the one regarding sulphur build up. In addition to sulphur many other elements and contaminants will act the same. Without water changes what is your plan to deal with such contaminants?



If I am not wrong, why you here? :lol:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry

I would minimize it....or not even introduce it by using quality additives and not stuff located under my sink.

[jorjef]

In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la la la la la la la la......

[ReefOcean]

I guess I should ask how old your system is. It may have been previously stated but I forget by now.

Much of the rock is 4 years old, the seed rock (about 5 pounds is about 6 years old). the rest (about 30 percent) is about 1 year old. The tank itelf (sump included) is about 5 months old but EVERYTHING was transfered from the old tank....so on average.....3 years old.

Some of the corals are 8 years old. Been through 5 transfers!

[ReefOcean]

This is getting to be a pretty heated discussion, how about we add some tangs into the mix... How many times should we do water changes in a 20g with 3 tangs? :eek:

On a more serious note, Im getting nice growth from everything in my tank and have so for the last 6 months since moving to a larger system and not doing regular water changes. I did weekly water changes before that and honestly had more issues with water changes. Now with a large cleanup crew and my sump and overflow stuffed with macro algae, everything looks happier than ever. Though i do add more than a salt bucket full of ro water every week do to evaporation.

I do a minor 5-10g water change when i clean out my sump though, which includes cleaning out my skimmer, carbon, and phosban reactor but thats every few months, lol.

I think my vodka doing is a big help as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk


My Soft corals have exploded. SPS is about the same since I stopped changing water. But yeah, I will be doing a small change soon, so stablize salanity and get the ditrious out of the bare bottom sump.

[sphelps]

If I am not wrong, why you here? :lol:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry

I would minimize it....or not even introduce it by using quality additives and not stuff located under my sink.

Because 1 I was here first and 2 because you asked the question why we need to do water changes and then continued to asked pretty much the same question over and over, so at this point I have no idea why.

So your solution to minimize contaminants is to add things like calcium chloride? Where does the chloride go? And how exactly do you think thing like sulphur and copper get in your water? Once again you have ignored everything put in front of you that you requested.

Best of luck, I've giving you what I know so no point repeating.

[ReefOcean]

Because 1 I was here first and 2 because you asked the question why we need to do water changes and then continued to asked pretty much the same question over and over, so at this point I have no idea why.

So your solution to minimize contaminants is to add things like calcium chloride? Where does the chloride go? And how exactly do you think thing like sulphur and copper get in your water? Once again you have ignored everything put in front of you that you requested.

Best of luck, I've giving you what I know so no point repeating.


Well geez, they havent affected me yet, nor have those people claiming to have no done water changes in many months...but...

Sulphur, explained.

copper= Use RODI and don't use some medications.

Cloride = build up is slow... or use calcium reactor?

[sphelps]

Well geez, they havent affected me yet, nor have those people claiming to have no done water changes in many months...but...

Sulphur, explained.

copper= Use RODI and don't use some medications.

Cloride = build up is slow... or use calcium reactor?
Yeap as I figured you have no idea... Again best of luck.

[ReefOcean]

Yeap as I figured you have no idea... Again best of luck.

You asked me how do minimalize/deal with it..so I answered. Obviously, you are the type of hobbyist who prefers to "preach" and "offer" (I use that term loosely) advice. Not really a discussing and debating kind of guy are ya

[sphelps]

You asked me how do minimalize/deal with it..so I answered. Obviously, you are the type of hobbyist who prefers to "preach" and "offer" (I use that term loosely) advice. Not really a discussing and debating kind of guy are ya

See anyone else still here?

[ReefOcean]

See anyone else still here?


Does that matter? Do you see how fast the topics on this forum are bumped?

[Delphinus]

What would you rather drink, fresh clean water or water that has been sitting for 6 months?

Just because you can limp a tank along (and possibly do just fine for a while) without waterchanges .. the best practises approach include water changes.

Very few long term tanks exist without a water change strategy in place.

[ReefOcean]

What would you rather drink, fresh clean water or water that has been sitting for 6 months?

Just because you can limp a tank along (and possibly do just fine for a while) without waterchanges .. the best practises approach include water changes.

Very few long term tanks exist without a water change strategy in place.

I would rather drink beer :lol:

But yes, my assertion is, that under the right circumstances and with the right preparation it is viable to limit/suspend water changes. Not everbody keeps on small clown in a 50 gallon tank or has a protein skimmer rated for a much larger tank like I do though.

my main contention is the people who just aren't willing to bend and see that there are many things you can do to make you system more enclosed and self sufficient and thus you can avoid your bi-weekly regiment of a 20 percent water changes...

[reefwars]

i dont care if i have to be the bad guy. that chitons topic for POTM was stupid, and i have no problem say it



hey ok you know what fine you asked for it buddy fact of the matter is your a sooky whiney know nothing, if you dont like the topic then shut up about it and dont enter the contest, in my opinion(im sure you know what that is right??) what kind of professional photographer cant go and get a simple low grade pic huh??? are you that flippin lazy ???IF IT REALLY MEANS THAT MUCH TOO YOU then lets see your pic?? huh where is it??

you come up with the stupidest of **ing threads saying youve had such and such problems for weeks asking for help and then dont accept it and just look for debate, your bridges here on this site are just about burned because of your arrogent comments, alot of us here just plain think your a joke you offer no help to others and when you actually look for help you are refusing to believe you f**ked up.....well you obviously did


the moorish idol thing.....a complete dumb thing to do....you know why???


because you have NO EXPERIENCE with these type of fish you know why it died???? because you, like every other newb who thought "hey i have a tank that grows leathers and zoas" that im experienced enough to take on fish that most actual fishkeepers of over decades cant keep....thats just dumb sorry:P


so thats how it is what are you 25??? grow up a bit the things you say and do are no different then what a 13yr old gets on with, this throwing tempers and pouting about whats not best for marko is a soap opera, are you not a man??? what kind of actual man goes around crying about every little thing thats not suited to him???


in summary your providing the proof to which of something ive always known......your a complete douche!!


anyways cheers!!


hope thats gramatically correct for ya!!:P

[reefwars]

sorry to the op and the rest of the posters/readers with that last post but enough is enough.my apoogies to you all:):) no hi jack intended:P


for the record i do water changes weekly of 20-25g weekly on a 90g with 75g sump lps tank.


i did this thread i believe about 6 mths ago and the jist of it is.....


your fish and animals appreciate fresh water:):)

[ReefOcean]

...fresh water with salt that is :lol:

[naesco]

You asked me how do minimalize/deal with it..so I answered. Obviously, you are the type of hobbyist who prefers to "preach" and "offer" (I use that term loosely) advice. Not really a discussing and debating kind of guy are ya

How dare you post this comment about sphelps a respected member of this forum who offers freely advice to newbies like you.

You chose to get into this hobby and you have an obligation to provide the optimum environment for your fish inverts and coral you keep.

Get out of the hobby if you are too lazy to do water changes or give your fish and coral a fresh clean environment instead of a salty slough.

[reefwars]

...fresh water with salt that is :lol:



true true lol



either way i run a skimmer,huge refugium with a dozen different kinds of cheato, algae scrubber,gfo aggressively and still at the end of the week my tank looks like it needs a water change, the only difference i notice really is in my bigger corals my elegance which actually likes nutrient rich water gets more colourful after a water change.

my parameters before and after a water chaneg are always pretty much the same, with some small differences in cal/alk

[ReefOcean]

How dare you post this comment about a respected member of this forum who offers freely advice to newbies like you.

You chose to get into this hobby and you have an obligation to provide the optimum environment for your fish inverts and coral you keep.

Get out of the hobby if you are too lazy to do water changes or give your fish and coral a fresh clean environment instead of a salty slough.

Noob? :lol: I have been doing this for almost 8 years. I only dare because he wont put out. He wants to trivialize this thread because it goes against his doctrine. The same could be said 3 years ago about people "killing" their coral off by using LED or T5. Thise people didnt know what they were doing! how dare they use something other than MH!!!!.. Now those 2 lighting methods are completely acceptable.

I am not talking about sticking fish into toxic sludge. I am talking about controlling contaminants, limiting bioload and dosing properly to suspend water changes and only do them occasionally. There is nothing put forward to suggest that the fish are suffering since parameters are monitored and the system is regulated.....

My god. ***Rolls eyes like 5000 times.

[naesco]

Noob? :lol: I have been doing this for almost 8 years. I only dare because he wont put out. He wants to trivialize this thread because it goes against his doctrine. The same could be said 3 years ago about people "killing" their coral off by using LED or T5. Thise people didnt know what they were doing! how dare they use something other than MH!!!!.. Now those 2 lighting methods are completely acceptable.

I am not talking about sticking fish into toxic sludge. I am talking about controlling contaminants, limiting bioload and dosing properly to suspend water changes and only do them occasionally. There is nothing put forward to sugg. est that the fish are suffering since parameters are monitored and the system is regulated.....

My god. ***Rolls eyes like 5000 times.

8 years. You act like a teenager with an attitude. You should be ashamed of yourself. Show some respect please.

[jorjef]

LETS GET READY TO RUMMMMMMMMMMMBLE.

fyi i change my water.... add salt too

[fishytime]

I gave up on this thread a few hours ago.....glad I popped back in to see what Denny had to say......

[reefwars]

How dare you post this comment about sphelps a respected member of this forum who offers freely advice to newbies like you.

You chose to get into this hobby and you have an obligation to provide the optimum environment for your fish inverts and coral you keep.

Get out of the hobby if you are too lazy to do water changes or give your fish and coral a fresh clean environment instead of a salty slough.



last year i asked the question about who had success without water changes and i asked this simply because i was curious as to how others are having success.....its all a part of being a hobbyst....do the best at your hobby you can....i came to the conclusion after lots of great advice that the animals we purchase deserve the best we can offer.


i have to agree with above, even if you can dose for everything you need to you also need to dose fresh water in which your fish breath and pass through their bodys:)

[ReefOcean]

8 years. You act like a teenager with an attitude. You should be ashamed of yourself. Show some respect please.

Have something viable to add? other than name calling and condescending ridicule?

EDIT: BTW, you are one to talk. You show some respect.

[naesco]

Yes I do have something to add.

You owe Mr. Phelps an apology

[reefwars]

I gave up on this thread a few hours ago.....glad I popped back in to see what Denny had to say......




bahaha im sorry but had to lol:P:P

[ReefOcean]

Yes I do have something to add.

You owe Mr. Phelps and apology


For what? He ridiculed me too :lol:. You need to be a little bit more consistant with your tantrums.

[FragIt Dan]

I am still here :). I do regular water changes... ~40% every 3-6 months ;). I have also run the math, have a decent understanding of the mechanisms and physiology of coral reefs as they apply to non-conservative element consumption, as well as nutrient cycling and export. My systems are not closed... I supplement all non-conservative elements as well as foods and, to my knowledge, I am able to remove all waste products via my mechanical, biological and chemical filtration (if you know otherwise please let me know, I am learning new stuff everyday and always appreciate constructive criticism). In my case, as well as many others, my corals do better with regular water changes in my bare bottom setup every 3-6 months, not every 1-2 weeks (my dsb and crushed coral substrate tanks require more frequent water changes due to detritus buildup). I might be able to go longer, but do not wish to risk imbalances in elements for which I am unable to test. For the most part I observe changes in various species of corals for indications of problems. I used to do weekly water changes, but no longer feel it gives me the best results. I agree with the comment that water changes are part of 'Reefing 101', but for those of us who completed university, we took courses well beyond the 100 level and discovered our first year Profs often oversimplified things... you are welcome to continue to do long division while I am off running linear regressions (this is the part where I am poking some fun, but it is intended for humor. I have a great deal of respect for everyone and would hate to know I have offended any of you do please don't take me too seriously). You might have noticed I refer to my 3-6 month regiment as 'regular' ;). What if a Reefer did 5% water changes daily and told the 'bi-weekly water changers' that they were cheap and lazy? I bring this up to open debate, not to criticize anyone, and do so because i think there are knowledgable and passionate people following this thread that can offer some great ideas i hope to learn from. Again, I would really like to keep my participation friendly so please accept my apologies if I am offending anyone. I would love to have this conversation with you guys over a beer and would be happy to by the first round ('cause I'm not cheap ;)). Hopefully you are chuckling right now :).


FragIt Dan

[naesco]

Reefocean, that may be true,
But I agree with him,
Not you

[dc4]

Err...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4fRGEqCxOGQ/Tq7gWlxNs0I/AAAAAAAABOA/lsbCAj5UAes/s1600/cant-we-all-just-get-along.jpg

[Nano]

yikes... :lol:

[fishytime]

I am talking about controlling contaminants, limiting bioload and dosing properly to suspend water changes and only do them occasionally.




What exactly are you dosing?....... here is a short list of some of the minerals and elements that are not being replenished when you dont do regular water changes....Strontium, Bicarbonate, Borate, Bromide, Chloride, Iodide, Sulfate, Potassium, Sodium ,Cobalt, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Rubidium, Zinc

[ReefOcean]

Reefocean, that may be true,
But I agree with him,
Not you

Oh so because you take his side, it makes his actions accepatible and mine deplorable.... I see.

[reefwars]

I am still here :). I do regular water changes... ~40% every 3-6 months ;). I have also run the math, have a decent understanding of the mechanisms and physiology of coral reefs as they apply to non-conservative element consumption, as well as nutrient cycling and export. My systems are not closed... I supplement all non-conservative elements as well as foods and, to my knowledge, I am able to remove all waste products via my mechanical, biological and chemical filtration (if you know otherwise please let me know, I am learning new stuff everyday and always appreciate constructive criticism). In my case, as well as many others, my corals do better with regular water changes in my bare bottom setup every 3-6 months, not every 1-2 weeks (my dsb and crushed coral substrate tanks require more frequent water changes due to detritus buildup). I might be able to go longer, but do not wish to risk imbalances in elements for which I am unable to test. For the most part I observe changes in various species of corals for indications of problems. I used to do weekly water changes, but no longer feel it gives me the best results. I agree with the comment that water changes are part of 'Reefing 101', but for those of us who completed university, we took courses well beyond the 100 level and discovered our first year Profs often oversimplified things... you are welcome to continue to do long division while I am off running linear regressions (this is the part where I am poking some fun, but it is intended for humor. I have a great deal of respect for everyone and would hate to know I have offended any of you do please don't take me too seriously). You might have noticed I refer to my 3-6 month regiment as 'regular' ;). What if a Reefer did 5% water changes daily and told the 'bi-weekly water changers' that they were cheap and lazy? I bring this up to open debate, not to criticize anyone, and do so because i think there are knowledgable and passionate people following this thread that can offer some great ideas i hope to learn from. Again, I would really like to keep my participation friendly so please accept my apologies if I am offending anyone. I would love to have this conversation with you guys over a beer and would be happy to by the first round ('cause I'm not cheap ;)). Hopefully you are chuckling right now :).


FragIt Dan


ok i chuckled lol i agree though but you do do water changes, its just less often but the effect is still there as oppsosed to someone who doesnt do them at all.not saying that not doing water changes will mean an unsuccessful tank over the years and especially the first 8yrs i ran skimmerless and dosing wasnt an option as 1)you couldnt get test kits where im from and 2)you couldnt get stuff to dose lol so water changes was where its at if you could even get salt lol


with todays advances i mean who knows i just still think its nice to give the animals including corals a breath of fresh air:)

[Aquaria]

What exactly are you dosing?....... here is a short list of some of the minerals and elements that are not being replenished when you dont do regular water changes....Strontium, Bicarbonate, Borate, Bromide, Chloride, Iodide, Sulfate, Potassium, Sodium ,Cobalt, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Rubidium, Zinc

But he already stated he does all his testing surely he tests and doses everything lol or thinks its added to salt mix for filler I mean who needs all those elements right

[ReefOcean]

What exactly are you dosing?....... here is a short list of some of the minerals and elements that are not being replenished when you dont do regular water changes....Strontium, Bicarbonate, Borate, Bromide, Chloride, Iodide, Sulfate, Potassium, Sodium ,Cobalt, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Rubidium, Zinc

Brightwell reef building complex, brrightwell aquatics replenish and sometimes calcion at the moment

[reefwars]

Brightwell reef building complex, brrightwell aquatics replenish and sometimes calcion at the moment


and how much do they cost??

[FragIt Dan]

What exactly are you dosing?....... here is a short list of some of the minerals and elements that are not being replenished when you dont do regular water changes....Strontium, Bicarbonate, Borate, Bromide, Chloride, Iodide, Sulfate, Potassium, Sodium ,Cobalt, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Rubidium, Zinc

I dose all non-conservative elements, major, minor and trace. IME, even daily water changes will not keep up with my tanks demands for measurable elements, I can only assume non measurable elements are depleted too quickly as well.


FragIt Dan

[ReefOcean]

But he already stated he does all his testing surely he tests and doses everything lol or thinks its added to salt mix for filler I mean who needs all those elements right

Coming from the guy who blindly doses with whatever happens to be in the salt mix/ water....:biggrin:

[lockrookie]

wait you have to test your water... dang its been 2 years since i tested mine...

[Delphinus]

"Dilution is the solution to pollution"

I'll be the first to agree you don't have to overdo waterchanges but at the same time all you have to do is a water change and look at your tank before and after to convince you a waterchange does your tank some good. It's like opening a window and letting fresh air in.

[The Grizz]

Does 10 gal's of ATO a day count on a 230 gal total system with a salinity of 1.020 count as WC?

[Delphinus]

Nope :p

[Aquaria]

Brightwell reef building complex, brrightwell aquatics replenish and sometimes calcion at the moment

But how do u know at what rate those elements deplete? U could be building up elements dosing with out w/c. You need to do the w/c to bring the buildup down that's all anyone has said to you. Us pro w/c'ers believe that w/c balance what we cannot test for

[The Grizz]

Nope :p

Damn it.:lol:

[reefwars]

Does 10 gal's of ATO a day count on a 230 gal total system with a salinity of 1.020 count as WC?



10g seems like a lot is it really that much??:P

[Zoaelite]

I dose all non-conservative elements, major, minor and trace. IME, even daily water changes will not keep up with my tanks demands for measurable elements, I can only assume non measurable elements are depleted too quickly as well.


FragIt Dan

Can you elaborate on which elements you test and dose for?
Dosing "Non-conservative elements" is a contradiction in itself, you can't dose for something that by definition varies.

[Aquaria]

"Dilution is the solution to pollution"

I'll be the first to agree you don't have to overdo waterchanges but at the same time all you have to do is a water change and look at your tank before and after to convince you a waterchange does your tank some good. It's like opening a window and letting fresh air in.

+1 I see it after every w/c

[Aquaria]

Coming from the guy who blindly doses with whatever happens to be in the salt mix/ water....:biggrin:

Lol seriously haha you do know u can find out what's in any givin salt mix online right? I know what's going into my tank and my coral love it

[Aquaria]

Does 10 gal's of ATO a day count on a 230 gal total system with a salinity of 1.020 count as WC?

Holy crappy grizzly lol another reason I don't want a large tank haha

[The Grizz]

Holy crappy grizzly lol another reason I don't want a large tank haha

It's very dry here this year. The house is really bad I need to install a furnace humidifier.

[The Grizz]

10g seems like a lot is it really that much??:P

Yep really that much.

[Aquaria]

Lol grizzly lol hate autocorrect on phones sometimes

[lockrookie]

i go through 5 g every 3 days on both tanks you mh may have helped with that evap hopefully the led's will help slow that down for you.. or you have a slow leak

[The Grizz]

i go through 5 g every 3 days on both tanks you mh may have helped with that evap hopefully the led's will help slow that down for you.. or you have a slow leak

No leak but with the LED's is should slow down, I hope.

[reefwars]

i go through 5 g every 3 days on both tanks you mh may have helped with that evap hopefully the led's will help slow that down for you.. or you have a slow leak


i would guess alot of it has to do with being a 8ft tank and a fair amount of flow. thats alot of water to have to add daily i would def look into hrv for the house:):)

300g a month in evaporation

[Aquaria]

i go through 5 g every 3 days on both tanks you mh may have helped with that evap hopefully the led's will help slow that down for you.. or you have a slow leak

Omg he said the L word how dare he

[ReefOcean]

But how do u know at what rate those elements deplete? U could be building up elements dosing with out w/c. You need to do the w/c to bring the buildup down that's all anyone has said to you. Us pro w/c'ers believe that w/c balance what we cannot test for


Is that relevant? Your alternative is arbitrarily adding them in through water/ salt mix that has an indeterminable amount.

[The Grizz]

i would guess alot of it has to do with being a 8ft tank and a fair amount of flow. thats alot of water to have to add daily i would def look into hrv for the house:):)

300g a month in evaporation

HRV's remove moisture from the air, I need to infuse moist into the house so the tank doesn't evap so much.

[ReefOcean]

Lol seriously haha you do know u can find out what's in any givin salt mix online right? I know what's going into my tank and my coral love it

Yes, I tested mag and cal after making a fresh batch when setting up my new tank. Not accurate in the least. When dosing, you can gauge the exact amount to dose or very close to it because it goes in separately...not mixed in with salt.

[reefwars]

HRV's remove moisture from the air, I need to infuse moist into the house so the tank doesn't evap so much.


oh ok i got ya makes sense:):) crazy that your house is so dry with that much moisture

[ReefOcean]

and how much do they cost??

a lot :sad:

[ReefOcean]

"Dilution is the solution to pollution"

I'll be the first to agree you don't have to overdo waterchanges but at the same time all you have to do is a water change and look at your tank before and after to convince you a waterchange does your tank some good. It's like opening a window and letting fresh air in.

Delphinus, don't get me wrong, I completely agree. I am not against water changes in fact I see some tanks that have a bioload which screams weekly water changes. In a system where bio-waste is kept at a low, water changes can become substantially less frequent to a a point where...cough...months are acceptable. Now people here can cling to minute trace elements all they want (most of whom don't even have a clue on what any of them do) and argue semantics but I think I made my case, even with the trolls coming in here to derail the thread.

Keep bioload low, run excessive mechanical filtration, dose and monitor. Simple.

And sorry Sphelps if I was being a douche, I felt douchery coming from you so I countered. No hard feelings.

[lockrookie]

for those still arguing thier sides to this debate here is my 2 cents and you can quote me on this ...who cares.... lol. the best way to solve this dilema of who is right and who is wrong is a duel to the death.. first person with a major tank crash loses. you have al said your opinion everyone has seen both sides and will still do what teh heck they want so there is no point. it may nothappen today it may not happen for 5 years. but whom ever is wrong will suffer huge losses. and will have no one to blame but themselves. there is no point in having a my tank is bigger than your tank conversation. when in essence no matter how long we are doing this hobby we all make mistakes with our ideas and ideals. noone is getting hurt here other that the OP whom asked a simple question and gets drama over tank envy or plain stubborness... that is all happy reeefing :)

and grizz i think ppl needmore cute puppy pics to calmthier nerves lol

[ReefOcean]

for those still arguing thier sides to this debate here is my 2 cents and you can quote me on this ...who cares.... lol. the best way to solve this dilema of who is right and who is wrong is a duel to the death.. first person with a major tank crash loses. you have al said your opinion everyone has seen both sides and will still do what teh heck they want so there is no point. it may nothappen today it may not happen for 5 years. but whom ever is wrong will suffer huge losses. and will have no one to blame but themselves. there is no point in having a my tank is bigger than your tank conversation. when in essence no matter how long we are doing this hobby we all make mistakes with our ideas and ideals. noone is getting hurt here other that the OP whom asked a simple question and gets drama over tank envy or plain stubborness... that is all happy reeefing :)

and grizz i think ppl needmore cute puppy pics to calmthier nerves lol

Unfortunately the first tank crash would come from my side since my position requires a low bioload and everybody overfills their tank with pretty fishies. It also requires monitoring. It is like the anti-zeovit but with with all the -paying attention- still there.

[Aquaria]

Is that relevant? Your alternative is arbitrarily adding them in through water/ salt mix that has an indeterminable amount.

I already said u can search what's in your choice of salt (and its not just calc alk) so im not just "arbitrarily adding a indeterminable amount"

[ReefOcean]

I already said u can search what's in your choice of salt (and its not just calc alk) so im not just "arbitrarily adding a indeterminable amount"

make a batch and test it. And I am not talking about that 50 dollar a bag Louis Vuitton or whatever designer salt. I am talking Kent or instant ocean, the garden variety stuff. The ingredients are not accurate. If they can't even get the cal or mag correct, how is those miniscual trace elements going to be at all correct.

But wait, you can't even test those miniscule trace elements accurately unless you are a hydro electric damn or a reservoir. So it is moot. Cal, mag, and the biggies you can, but aquarium unobtanium which helps in hypothetical this and that, good luck.... to put it as bluntly as possible. Your salt mix dosing is not better then my bottle dosing. End of story.

[FragIt Dan]

Can you elaborate on which elements you test and dose for?
Dosing "Non-conservative elements" is a contradiction in itself, you can't dose for something that by definition varies.

Hmmmm after re-reading on non-conservative elements I can see why you are confused, i have used the term 'non-conservative' incorrectly . Thinking about it a bit more, I should have said that I dose everything you would expect to be replaced when doing a water change with a high quality salt, or at least I think I am :). I test for Ca, dKh and Phosphates monthly but have my dosers/GFO dialed in pretty closely so find my levels don't drift too much (I also periodically test for nitrate, Mg and just got an Fe tester more because I am curious than concerned). I also watch for color changes in some of my corals as indicators for some of my supplement requirements (specifically B, Fe and K). For elements I dose K, Fe, I, dKh, Ca, Mg, Boron, Sr and trace. I have also been tinkering with BA Elemental (I think it is the same as Purple Up under a different brand) to see about increased seeding rates for LR with coralline as well. On a side note, to my surprise my recent addition of boron supplementation has actually made a difference (IMO), although I am on a DIY dKh recipe which is boron free, so that may explain why. Thanks for pointing that out :).


FragIt Dan

[Aquaria]

make a batch and test it. And I am not talking about that 50 dollar a bag Louis Vuitton or whatever designer salt. I am talking Kent or instant ocean, the garden variety stuff. The ingredients are not accurate. If they can't even get the cal or mag correct, how is those miniscual trace elements going to be at all correct.

But wait, you can't even test those miniscule trace elements accurately unless you are a hydro electric damn or a reservoir. So it is mute. You magic salt mix dosing is not better then my bottle dosing. End of story.

That's weird cuz I use io reef crystals and the few times iv tested my water it was fairly accurate give or take a little and i don't have to dose trace elements because there in the salt and my w/c helps reduce what buildups there may be from the elements that don't get used up as fast which is all we've been saying "end of story"

[ReefOcean]

That's weird cuz I use io reef crystals and the few times iv tested my water it was fairly accurate give or take a little and i don't have to dose trace elements because there in the salt and my w/c helps reduce what buildups there may be from the elements that don't get used up as fast which is all we've been saying "end of story"


How come I knew you would say that. :lol: Good thing I can also bottle dose when my wonky salt mix screws me around..when i do water changes that is

I really don't get this circular argument you are presenting.

Whatever comes out of that salt bag, can come out of a bottle... Is it really that bad that it is possible to get away with suspended water changes? What exactly is your motivation here? You have ahve pretty much established that that dosing is dosing, if the salt mixture is correct.

[ReefOcean]

btw, It wont build up, but it can be depleted. by doing a water change and adding the static 10 more units of element A when 20 are now needed doesn't really help. Next time you need 30, then 40.

It would only make sense that the amount of the secondary trace elements required, is very flexible.

[daniella3d]

copper can build up because there can be some amount in fish food and that can build up with time.

that's what would worry me the most if I was to go without water change for a long time. Also if one dose daily, there might be some residual from dosing that could build up.


btw, It wont build up, but it can be depleted. by doing a water change and adding the static 10 more units of element A when 20 are now needed doesn't really help. Next time you need 30, then 40.

It would only make sense that the amount of the secondary trace elements required, is very flexible.

[Gripenfelter]

I went 2 months without a water change and started to notice the corals were stunted. Not growing anymore. Nitrates and ammonia was zero. But you really do need to add more essential elements.

Now I do a 5% water change per week.

[sphelps]

Coming from the guy who blindly doses with whatever happens to be in the salt mix/ water....:biggrin:

Is that relevant? Your alternative is arbitrarily adding them in through water/ salt mix that has an indeterminable amount.

But wait, you can't even test those miniscule trace elements accurately unless you are a hydro electric damn or a reservoir. So it is moot. Cal, mag, and the biggies you can, but aquarium unobtanium which helps in hypothetical this and that, good luck.... to put it as bluntly as possible. Your salt mix dosing is not better then my bottle dosing. End of story.

You know Mr. Ocean I figured by this time you would have had enough time to think about the subject a little more but you still actually haven't figured out what a water change does despite being told numerous times. It's not the same as dosing....

Once again I will explain, do not let your ADD kick in before you've understood this post.

For arguments sake lets say you just setup a tank consisting of 100 parts of water and within that it contains 10% of E (Same as fresh batch of mixed salt). Now this E can be anything but lets assume it's something you don't test for and nothing in your tank is using it at a noticeable rate.

-----

Method 1 - The Water Change (10%):
Start -> 100 parts - 10 parts E
After 10% water removal -> 90 parts - 9 parts E
After 10% Replenish -> 100 parts - 10 parts E

This will go on forever and despite that E is not being used the concentration never grows.

Method 2 - Dosing
Start -> 100 parts - 10 parts E
Dose mixture contains 1 part E
After Dosing 100 parts - 11 parts E (after evaporation equilibrium)

This pattern will continue and E will grow in concentration each time you dose.

----

So the difference:

Dosing does one thing - Add
Water change does two - Add and Subtracts

Water changes maintain a balance of elements by adding what's needed and reducing any excess amounts or contamination.

This same example can apply to many things such as containment which you add to your tank whether you realize it or not. People just don't add things like copper, sulfur, chloride, silica, phosphorus, ect willingly they added through foods, additives and even our hands. Even that bottle of elements you swear by will contain many impurities. Without water changes these contaminants will grow.

----

Do I think water changes are needed? No I don't, if you actually read any of my actual posts on the subject you would have noticed I clearly stated you can have success without water changes but it's not for the inexperienced because there are more factors at play than many seem to realize. There are many people that have posted success with limited water change, and when I say success I don't mean those with new tanks, a few corals and some half eaten clams. Talk to these people, they are not inexperienced, they can look actually look at there corals and know what to add and when in order for their corals to thrive. They have also chosen there methods based on more than just laziness.

If I came off as a douche it's because I've repeated myself numerous times to someone who has failed understand such a simple concept. The concept isn't an argument to favor either side of the discussion, it's purely the difference between water change and no water change.

[Lampshade]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

This is a great article that proves sphelps point for doing water changes.
I agree to doing them if you need nitrate reduction, add in "extra" elements to your tank through dosing, or need to replenish mag/calc/alk.

I run biopellets/large refugium that keeps my nitrates at 0, I don't dose(Calcium Reactor), so the only "extras" I'm adding to my tank are through the food I feed my fish, or trace elements that make it past my RODI(should be 0). So in an ideal world, there's no reason for me to do them weekly/bi weekly. I've been doing them recently since my tank's been recovering from the epidemic "Kent Carbon '12", just because of the excess die off that's been happening my ecosystem cannot keep up, so I've had to intervene. But generally, I've had best results letting everything stay balanced, whatever my coral takes up in elements, my calcium reactor adds. Whatever waste is produced, my bacteria/refugium/skimmer take up. Every time I did a 10% water change, my coral would lose color for a week. Now that my tank's back to going better I'll be changing from 10% weekly back down to 10% monthly over the next while, so that I can try to get the color back into my coral's since they're back to growing again.

[sphelps]

I already posted that article but apparently most peoples attention spans are not long enough to read such a novel. It's easier to blatantly ignore everything and post the same dribble over and over again.

[sphelps]

I'm also not sure where people got the idea that 10% weekly is the norm or what's apparently recommended as a rule of thumb. I don't believe this to be true, as far as I know 10% monthly is what's recommended as a rule of thumb to simplify things for beginners. From there each hobbyist determines what works best for them, whether it be more or less depends on their tank demands and experience. Systems like Zeovit call for a 10% change weekly but there are specific reasons for this.

This is not a new concept, it's how it's always been so if people are debating whether to change X amount weekly or Y amount monthly or even Z amount quarterly you're really all doing the same thing. Changing water, the amount and frequency is only thing different.

Eliminating water changes all together is different story but it's also nothing new and been going on for decades. It's not new technology that people haven't adapted yet, it's simply a different method that few people use long term for what I believe is the simple concept of excess organic and inorganic impurities that will build up over time as well as imbalance of elements.

[sphelps]

On more post regarding cost of dosing vs water change as that came up.

System size: 25 gallon
Demand: Low

Water change:
Decent salt brand - $70 / 150 gallons
Min requirement - 10% change per month
Cost: $ 1.17 per month

Dosing (rates are based on bottle instructions):
Trace Element - $20/500ml (5ml/week)
Mag - $10/500ml (5ml/week)
Potassium - $12/500ml (2.5ml/week)
Alk - $8/500ml (10ml/week)
Ca - $10/500ml (10ml/week)
Cost: $2.88 per month

So dosing will cost you more than twice as much and do less but it is easier.

[Arok3000]

That article also conclusively explains what Sphelps is discussing about removing unwanted build-up of contaminants.

Water Changes to Deplete Something: Sulfate from a Homemade Two-Part Additive

I have suggested that reef aquarists who cannot find high quality magnesium chloride could manage using inexpensive Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate). The unfortunate drawback of using Epsom salts is the accumulation of sulfate. The article goes on to show how water changes reduce the concentration of sulfate that is built up as a byproduct of splitting the magnesium sulfate heptahydrate.
Now I know that many aquarists are not using Epsom salts to dose their magnesium, but what other by-products are you unknowingly creating in your tank?

I use FCC grade anhydrous Calcium Chloride which is claimed to be 99.8% pure. Can you be completely sure that the other .2% of whatever you're dosing isn't building up contaminants? Food grade products are fine for human consumption, but in our digestive systems we don't typically build up toxic elements, they are excreted through wastes. In aquaria, these elements are built up in the water column, and without a means of removal, will continue to build up over a period of time. Although not immediately noticeable, even the tiniest amount of pollutants consistently added over a long enough period will eventually build up to toxic levels.

[reefwars]

I have to agree with sphelps 100% very we'll said:)