Arc fault circuit interupter

[kole]

I have a gfci installed on the circuit which my tank is connected. I don't have afci's in my panel box and I am thinking I should install at least one on the circuit that my reef tank is connected. Like many people I've had my share of small and large spills luckily no salt water has reached the electrical source. An arc fault interupter would cut the power to the circuit before a fire could start. Who has installed these in their panels? Any electricians here to chime in about afci's?

[gregzz4]

Would a flood ever reach the height of your outlet? Or any exposed wiring where it would be immersed? If not, you may want to avoid the troubles AFCIs can cause with tripping.

Have you read this from Bean Animal's site?
Pros and Cons;

AFCI WHY NOT?

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters are designed to detect the electrical signature caused by electricity arcing someplace in the circuit. If arcing is detected, the AFCI breaker trips and removes power from the circuit. At first glance the AFCI appears to be a perfect candidate for fish tanks. Where there is water and electricity, there is a significant chance of arcing type fires. The problem is that AFCI breakers have a well deserved bad reputation for nuisance tripping when posed with a complex load such as a motor or ballast. An AFCI would add significant safety to a fish tank setup, but would also expose the livestock to a much higher greater risk of nuisance induced power outages. Most AFCI breakers also incorporate a GFCI into the device. A single GFCI used to power your tank (as mentioned above) is not a good idea. If you do not use AFCI circuit breakers (or the newer AFCI receptacles) then please take the precautions to prevent arcing type fires. That means taking precautions to protect power strips and other devices that will be exposed to moisture, drips and salt creep.

[kole]

Flood would not reach the height of the outlet. Spraying water is another possibility. I have the power bars high up and make drip loops. I had the front pane of glass of a 125 gallon break several years ago, when I found it water was spraying out through the crack. Had it been the back panel the outlets would have been very wet. Didn't think of nuisance outages I'm going to read up on them some more thanks.

[troni]

I'm an electrician, and gfci detects the difference in current coming in on the hot wire and back on the neutral and they must be the same or it trips. That's why they're usednear sinks and stuff. And if you want the extra precaution raise your plugs to a satifying height. Or hardwire them. Use your imagination. Install a box in the wall cavity that has a door which will allow enough room for just your cords to passby and have some plugs inside the box.

[outacontrol]

I'm an electrician, and gfci detects the difference in current coming in on the hot wire and back on the neutral and they must be the same or it trips. That's why they're usednear sinks and stuff. And if you want the extra precaution raise your plugs to a satifying height. Or hardwire them. Use your imagination. Install a box in the wall cavity that has a door which will allow enough room for just your cords to passby and have some plugs inside the box.

Well I am also an electrician and it is against code to install receptacles in cabinets or cupboards, so that is not very good advice! It is also against code to move your receptacles without a permit, so for most reefers that is not great advice either.
Installing AFCI is probably a good idea, but be:fadein: careful not to put everything on one control device. You don't want your whole tank turning off due a tripped breaker or receptacle. GFCI is a must though!
Buy some good quality powerbars, plug them into GFCI receptacles and always use a drip loop in all your cords.

[troni]

Well I am also an electrician and it is against code to install receptacles in cabinets or cupboards, so that is not very good advice! It is also against code to move your receptacles without a permit, so for most reefers that is not great advice either.
Installing AFCI is probably a good idea, but be:fadein: careful not to put everything on one control device. You don't want your whole tank turning off due a tripped breaker or receptacle. GFCI is a must though!
Buy some good quality powerbars, plug them into GFCI receptacles and always use a drip loop in all your cords.

Ya your right slipped my mind about cabinet. My excuse is I'm commercial. And no permit need to raise a plug can't think of the rule but I'm pretty sure no permit to move a few plugs. Well not in alberta.

[outacontrol]

Ya your right slipped my mind about cabinet. My excuse is I'm commercial. And no permit need to raise a plug can't think of the rule but I'm pretty sure no permit to move a few plugs. Well not in alberta.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but wrong again. A permit is required for any change to any electrical system, moving a receptacle is definately a change.
Permits are not required for maintance such as replacement of a receptacle.

Since you brought of the rules, CEC rule 2-004 states; Electrical contractors or others responsible for carrying out the work shall obtain a permit from the inspection department before commencing work with respect to installation, alteration, repair, or extension of any electrical equipment.

This applies to everywhere in Canada as it is the Canadian Electrical Code. It applies to everyone and applies to any changes to any electrical system.

[Nate]

Bazinga!

[troni]

Must of been years since you've been on tools huh? Cause your talking like a office guy. Nobody is going to get a permit to move a plug.

Yes its the canadian electrical code but its a suggested code. Every province has its own legislatio

[Lampshade]

It's still part of the code though, so when your insurance company is looking for ways to not pay you it will for sure come up. For the case of beer it'd cost to get someone to come help out might be worth it.

[Avrbuster]

Must of been years since you've been on tools huh? Cause your talking like a office guy.

Well he did get that one right, only it's a little worse!

I learnt 2 things a while ago, never argue with outacontrol on electrical issues, as he is seldom wrong. And he will be wiring my basement when I get ready to do it! :lol:

Avrbuster

[Magma]

Must of been years since you've been on tools huh? Cause your talking like a office guy. Nobody is going to get a permit to move a plug.

Yes its the canadian electrical code but its a suggested code. Every province has its own legislatio

I'm on the tools right now in fact I do office renos and to move a plug 6" to the left I need a permit and inspection. The same goes for residential.

The code is suggestive yes but its also a legal document.

FYI this is from city of Edmonton website.


Permit Requirements
All new electrical installations require a permit, such as:

New construction
Renovations/alterations
Basement developments
Hot tub installations
Garage wiring
Service upgrade
Any additions to an electrical system, adding new circuits/wiring for receptacles and/or lighting, repair/replacement of aluminum wiring and garden shed wiring to name a few.


http://www.edmonton.ca/bylaws_licences/electrical-permits-residential.aspx

Not saying it doesn't happen from time to time but its a big slap to the bank account if you get caught without one.

[outacontrol]

Must of been years since you've been on tools huh? Cause your talking like a office guy. Nobody is going to get a permit to move a plug.

Yes its the canadian electrical code but its a suggested code. Every province has its own legislatio

Man you are just full great information, are you sitting on the toilet when you write these replies? Cause I think some of your information and advise should be wiped up with some toilet paper and flushed.

The decision to pull a permit is a decision that everyone should make on their own from an educated stand point, you should not be advising people in a public forum that permits are not required.

When did you get your ticket? Does your boss know that you think the Canadian Electrical Code is just a suggested code? The CEC is the mandated legislated code, no if ands or buts about it! Every province has its own legislation - you must be refering the Alberta Standata, which is a document that amends and provides interpretation of the CEC.
As an electrician you can be fined, lose your ticket and even go to jail for breaking the code.

Please think twice before continuing with your miss-informed, and miss-leading information.

[troni]

This is tough to do:
Yes you are correct that is the proper way to do it. Thank you. Its tough keeping the proper mindset with a company like the one I work for.

[Avrbuster]

This is tough to do:
Yes you are correct that is the proper way to do it. Thank you. Its tough keeping the proper mindset with a company like the one I work for.

I have to say, it's nice to see someone admit they made a mistake on the internet. That is extremely rare. My hat is off to you troni!

On a personal side note, I know it's hard to stand up when you have tons of pressure to cut a few corners and your Bose (or Bosses) tell you to do it. But I would encourage you to voice your concerns. I'm no expert, but I believe in a court of law you are just as culpable as the company and could be open to litigation at a personal level. Don't think for one minute the company is going to stand behind you if sh*t hits the fan!

[kole]

Ok Now that we all know the law anybody have anything else to add to the original topic lol.

[wingedfish]

I've cut the arc fault plugs off of at least a dozen appliances (window a/c's) do to nuisance tripping. These are CSA mandated on some things for some reason but are just annoying in the field. Cannot imagine why anyone would want one on their tank.

I personally wil not put a gfci on my tank either. To each their own.

[Megalodon]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I was doing some searching on arc fault interrupters here. My brother recommended I install one on my circuit breaker since I have a lot of things plugged in my condo and I'm paranoid about fire, especially with four cats that I probably wouldn't be able to all save in the event of a disaster.

That being said, my brother isn't a reefer and understandably isn't considering the damage to a tank being shut off for more than a day, and now that I've read about false trips, I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it.

Anyone have any more opinions or insight to share on this? I already have GFCI's up the ying-yang, but I do want the extra protection, not just for my tanks, but my computers and electrical equipment as well. Thanks.

[Doug]

In my place in Manitoba I had GFCI/AF breakers in the bedrooms, one of which was my office. I ran some of my tank on it and also had a dedicated 15a circuit installed on a GFIC. I was running halides then and they dont fire on arc fault.

My new place here has similar GFCI/AF breakers, again in bedrooms and one being my office. Thats all I,m running my tank on but I use LED lights now, so no problem and added protection.

[Ace22]

I am also an interprovincial journeyman electrician for over 35 years. My 2 cents....I personally see nothing wrong with homeowners doing minor electrical work provided it is done properly, it isn't rocket science and anybody can do a good job by doing a little research. I am also not an insurance agent but they would be hard pressed to not pay a claim provided the work was done properly as they would have to prove that the moved outlet was the cause of a claim and that it was not done properly. The fine for not pulling a permit is a joke and very very rarely enforced. Most of the stories about big fines are nothing more than an urban myth. I would also never install an arc fault receptacle anywhere else but a bedroom. These devices were invented for bedrooms as that is where most domestic fires occur. They are not recommended for any cicuit that has arcing loads which is not a problem in a bedroom for the most part but when you plug in somthing like your vacumm cleaner you will get nusiance tripping.
Your tank will probobly have several loads which could cause tripping ie..pump motors and even your heater.
As far as gfci go I wouldn't install one on my reef tank either as they can also cause nusiance tripping and I would rather just take the prcaution of keeping my electrical clean and dry as possible. A gfci is designed to prevent people from being electrocuted they are not designed to protect from fire. I have wired hundreds of outlets in public places for drinking fountains and have never used a gfci for this. I can also find no code rules which mandate such precautions.
I am quite sure the only place a gfci is mandated by code is near your kitchen sink or in your bathroom.
Make sure you have a propely grounded outlet, keep your electrical clean dry and neat and take a chill pill.

[Megalodon]

Hmm, you know, I've never once had a nuisance trip from a GFCI on any of my tanks and I've been using several of them for years, both in the wall outlets, and powerbars. The only times they've gone off is when I've spilled water on the powerbars, and I'm glad they did.

Do AFCIs trip easier than GFCIs? I run LED and fluorescent lighting and have an air conditioner in my house.

[Ace22]

Gfci and arc fault breakers trip for different reasons. To put it in laymans terms a gfci trips when it see some current leakage as when things get wet and a small current follows the moisture. An arc fault breaker trips when it detects an arc from something like a loose connection. Like I said arc fault breakers are designed for bedrooms as that is where most domestic fires occur. The main cause of these fires was the proverbial octopus. This has become more of a problen over the years as people have more and more electrical items in the bedroom.
If you have power bars and electrical equipment located in a spot where you can spill water on it you should certainly have gfci in place. I have no idea if an arc fault breaker will trip in your specific case all I can tell you they are not recommended in places you have arcing loads. Motors often have brushes which produce an arc, aquarium heaters have contacts which produce an arc. If you are truly worried about your house burning down you should have a journeyman electrician inspect your home and equipment. Electrical installations are more forgiving than most people realize they are often afraid because it is all a big mystery for them. I am more afraid of my tank springing a leak than being electrocuted or having a fire personally.

[Magma]

I am quite sure the only place a gfci is mandated by code is near your kitchen sink or in your bathroom.



Or pumps in a Lake, river and streams. Anything near a Pool, Hot tub, Spa and pretty much any place water is mentioned it refers to using GFCI protection. In fact I can count right now 23 different places in the code which GFCI protection is mentioned and required in most of those, with the odd exception. Now sure we don't have a specific rule for fish tanks, but when the trend is water=GFCI it should be a no brainer, ultimately everyone will choose if they want to use one on there tank or not.

On another note

As for AFCI circuits well pretty much useless with water IMO. They are to be used in bedrooms to prevent arcing
pretty simple explanation of them found on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fault_circuit_interrupter


They way I see it a fish tank doesn't really follow any rules in the code, to be safe a GFCI would be great but with lights and pumps plugged in you may get tripping from them turning on and off. If you use drip looks and are cautious then can get away without it. But its to each his own.

[toxic111]

Just on a comment on the GFI and Arc Faults. I had a bad connection (made by the electrician that wired my house) with the AF. My digital alarm clock would trip it when it alarm went off.

I have a GFI plug set-up in my tank stand. My Radion lights will trip it, some plugs are very sensitve, and others will be fine. One of these days I am going to replace it with another one to see how it does.