Bean Animal drains not draining properly

[braid11]

I really need some help. I have been working on this for a looonnng time. Wife not so happy any more:( I finally tested my setup last night: big tank overflow onto kitchen floor.

My Bean Animal drain is not keeping up with my Hammerhead return pump, unless I throttle it back to a very very low rate. I overflowed it once when testing with tap water.

It’s a 72*30*24 glass display tank in the kitchen, and a similar size acrylic sump in the basement.

All lines are 1.5 “ flex PVC. They run down 14 feet to the basement sump, and run horizontally about 8-10 ft across a bedroom dropping about 8”, then into the basement shop/sump room where they run about 16.5 horizontal feet dropping about 6-7”, then a horizontal run of about 8 ft dropping 6 feet into the sump.

The gate valve on what is to be the main siphon is at the sump end of the drain. It is fully open. All ball valves are fully open.

The drains in the sump do not terminate under the water line, I guess I could try that. Surly that is not the problem.


All three drain lines together will not keep up with the pump, unless it's really dialed back to a slow flow. One by itself is supposed to drain the overflow at over 1000 GPH.

Is it the horizontal runs? That would mean a whole redesign of the basement, moving the sump across the sump room 15 feet.

Tom

[braid11]

Here is the return pump.

Can't seem to attach it.

Tom

[unclesalty]

My guess would be is that its your lines entering sump. They have to be just under the water level in your sump and they appear in pic to be above water level.

[braid11]

Yes, they are above the water level. I will have to retest with them below the level. I thought it did not matter.

Tom

[unclesalty]

Yes, they are above the water level. I will have to retest with them below the level. I thought it did not matter.

Tom

Bean animal has no chance whatsoever of working if lines aren't under approx 1" or so. Don't go too far in either with them.

[unclesalty]

I am not sure about all the horizontal footage and total length of lines but definitely fix the lines in sump for starters.

[whatcaneyedo]

Is all of the plumbing 1.5" or just the flex hose? The PVC fittings in the first picture look really small but maybe thats just because everything else looks so big.

[braid11]

Yes, they are all 1.5 flex, but reduced to 1" at the bulkhead. I think that is the original Bean Animal design. My used tank came with pre drilled 1" where I have the drains.

OK, hopefully putting them under water 2" in the sump will do it.

That is a bit scarey, as the main display will overflow at a high rate of flow if they were to somehow come out of the water in the sump.

Also, I thought I read of some people placing the safety emergency drain above the sump water level, so they could hear when it kicked in. But then it would not handle all of the flow by itself, which it is supposed to do?

Tom

[whatcaneyedo]

How much flow is your hammerhead giving you after head pressure has been taken into account? Have you used this calculator to figure it out? http://reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator The bean animal system says that it can handle up to 2000gph if done properly and a hammerhead should still be producing over 3000gph even at 17' depending on the model.

[braid11]

I figure close to 16ft of head. But then I dialed the pump down with the 1.5" gate valve just above the pump. It's only open about 3/4 of a turn (It's 8 turns lock to lock). I need to calculate the flow.

I submerged the lines, and tried again. It will run with the way I have it dialed down. The height in the overflow box changes a lot, even after ten minutes. The saftey drain kicks in now and then.

It also makes more noise than I had hoped for.

I turned it all off, tefloned the caps, tightened the bulkheads some more.

I just think it needs way more flow. I will calculate the flow next, based on how fast it fills a volume of water in the DT.

Tom

[Proteus]

Yeah u need lines in water to make it air tight. Won't siphon right if airs traveling up
I run this style and it's a little tricky getting all air out

[braid11]

It took 1.5 mintues for the pump to drain 3.625" from my sump up to the DT. The sumps internal dimensions are 71*23.25 inches. So that is about 26 gallons in 1.5 minutes, or about 1040 GPH.

The problem is that on start up it almost overflowed before the drains properly kicked in. I had to turn the pump off briefly, 20 seconds, then plugged it in again. It is now running again.

I dialed in the main drain. It took many trips up and down the stairs. It is now dead quiet. Silent. No noise: wife is happier now:)

So it's running at about 1000GPH, dead quiet, and stays at the same level.

Now I need to re try a power on/off.

I would like to see the flow a little more, but I suppose it is enough as is.

Tom

[mseepman]

I have read that on startup, the reason you have 3 drains is because the system needs all three to the max and then settles in before overflowing. I plan on putting a bean-animal system into my tank..but I'm going all 1.5" (even the bulkheads into the overflow)

[WindowMaker]

good info here, I am planning to do a beananimal overflow when I move and re-setup.

[Daimyo68]

Your drain lines need to be just below the level of the water in your sump. 1" below is optimal. The ensures a fast take up if the siphon needs to be restarted (if the power goes out and back on, or you shut the return pump off and restart it).

Once you have the set, then leave all 3 gate valves wide open. Turn your gate valve 1/4 closed on the return pump line. Don't be scared of it overflowing, this system is designed with that possibility in mind. The first time I turned mine on, I thought for sure it was coming over the edge of the DT, but you will get used to how it works and never have another worry again :)

Now you will start to fine tune the siphon/return together. I tune mine using the siphon channel gate valve. once you have that set, then see how much flow you have going into the tank from your return lines. If it's too much, then you will turn the valve to restrict the pump a little, and close the siphon line valve a little. If it's not enough, then open them both a little.

The Return and Siphon valves are directly related. You adjust one, and you must adjust the other the same way. it's a bit of a PITA at first, but you will get the hang of it.

You will also notice that the water level in the overflow will even out too. I run mine right at the bottom corner of the elbow, this way 99% of the flow is going through the siphon channel.

Also make sure that your open channel air line is just above that level, this way it doesn't fight to be the siphon.

It takes some time and patience, but once you have it set, your going to be a happy camper.

[braid11]

It definitely takes time and patience.

After a lot of adjusting main siphon drain gate valve by 1/8 turns, and return pump gate valve by 1/8 turns, I had them balanced and silenced.

At about 1000+ GPH, all was silent and working great. But, I could not shut down and restart without being 1/4" from overflow onto the floor. If I unplugged for 15 seconds, then continued the re start, it worked.

After throttling down the flow to about 900 GPH, I could power down, restart, with no risk of overflow. But, my drains in the sump are under water by about 3". Next weekend, when I'm back, I'll try with them just 1" under water.

The thing is, the depth of the drains in the sump must be adjusted when the pump is running, and all is in equilibrium. Other wise, if they are too shallow at start up, they may be out of the water level when it’s all up and running.

So, hopefully it all works out. I thought I was going to have to move the basement sump 20 ft closer to the DT, to eliminate much of the horizontal run. That was a depressing thought.

Tom

[Daimyo68]

The drains in the sump should be in a chamber where the water level is normally stable. I know what your saying about the level going up and down on restart.

Do you have them in the skimmer section? Thats the best place for them. Even when restarting, the skimmer section should never drop below a given level. Mine is 10". This is due to the baffles being at 10", and even when the water level drops elsewhere in the sump, the minimum in the skimmer/drain section will always be the same.

Something else about the pipe being under the water is that you can have the siphon a little bit deeper than the other pipes. It helps promote the siphon on restart.

There was also something else in his thread that mentioned drilling a small hole in one of the ends of the pipes, but I don't remember for sure where that is.

It seem like your right about there though and your just minor adjustments away from being done :)

[molotov]

I'm tagging along.

I too am seting up a BeanAnimal. My spa-flex coming from my three bulkheads is only 1" as opposed to 1.5" so I'm hoping this will not be a problem for me. I'm also running all ball valves. No gate valves. I may have to really play with the ball valves to get everything in balance but will try it first with the ball valves. If it proves to difficult I may have to switch to a gate valve.

[Daimyo68]

I'm tagging along.

I too am seting up a BeanAnimal. My spa-flex coming from my three bulkheads is only 1" as opposed to 1.5" so I'm hoping this will not be a problem for me. I'm also running all ball valves. No gate valves. I may have to really play with the ball valves to get everything in balance but will try it first with the ball valves. If it proves to difficult I may have to switch to a gate valve.

I used the true union ball valve on my last tank, and it was a pita. I went with gate valves this time on both the Siphon and Drain lines as they are much easier to fine tune.

On another note somewhat related to ball valves, I would recommend putting gutter guard around the elbows in the overflow if your distance between the bottom of the elbow and the glass is more than a 1/2". Snails and fish will go into the overflow on occasion. If the fish goes over and gets sucked in, they usually make it past the ball/gate valve. But most snails cannot pass it due to their shell. When this happens, you have to open the ball valve to let it past and then adjust it again. Having a gate valve makes it much easier to make the fast adjustment, whereas the gate valve can be time consuming and troublesome.


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[Gripenfelter]

All of my Bean Animal drains are 6" below the water line. They work fine right now but every time the power goes out the water level bounces around for a while before it re-adjusts. I should probably shorten the pipes.

I have a Hammerhead as well working at 80% wide open in the basement. My issue was with the main siphon. It wouldn't start up and my open channel would become my main siphon making loud gurgling noises. The problem was with air being trapped inside the elbow in the overflow box of the main siphon. Drilled a tiny hole at the highest point of the elbow. No more issues.

[Daimyo68]

All of my Bean Animal drains are 6" below the water line. They work fine right now but every time the power goes out the water level bounces around for a while before it re-adjusts. I should probably shorten the pipes.

I have a Hammerhead as well working at 80% wide open in the basement. My issue was with the main siphon. It wouldn't start up and my open channel would become my main siphon making loud gurgling noises. The problem was with air being trapped inside the elbow in the overflow box of the main siphon. Drilled a tiny hole at the highest point of the elbow. No more issues.

Once you shorten the depth of the pipe outlets, your going to be surprised at how fast it picks the siphon back up :)

The most likely reason that the air was staying trapped was because there wasn't enough velocity to pull the air pocket back into the pipe. When you shorten the outlets in the sump, that problem would go away. Try blocking off that little hole you drilled and see what happens :) after your fixes



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[braid11]

All of my Bean Animal drains are 6" below the water line. They work fine right now but every time the power goes out the water level bounces around for a while before it re-adjusts. I should probably shorten the pipes.

I have a Hammerhead as well working at 80% wide open in the basement. My issue was with the main siphon. It wouldn't start up and my open channel would become my main siphon making loud gurgling noises. The problem was with air being trapped inside the elbow in the overflow box of the main siphon. Drilled a tiny hole at the highest point of the elbow. No more issues.

Before throttling down, my Hammerhead sees probably max 17' head. That would be 3600 GPH, and even at 20' of head that is 3000 GPH. No wonder it overflowed the first time I tried it. I am at about 900 GPH now, so throttled down to 25-30% of max.

I think I can't get past 900 GPH because the air will not purge fast enough. My drains are about 3-4" under.

I only have about 1.25 inches from the top of the overflow box (about normal water level when all is balanced), until it flows out of the tank onto the floor. So not much time to fill the box, and purge. Maybe that is part of the problem.

Also, I read that when the drains are too deep in the sump, it takes longer to purge.

You are 6" under, and at 80% of full throttle, you must be flowing way more than 1000GPH. I know the system is supposed to be good to 2000GPH, but i can't get close to that.

So you drilled a hole in the elbow inside overflow box. You mean in the 90 elbow? Is it submerged when it's running? Because otherwise would't it suck in air and break the siphon?

Tom

[braid11]

The drains in the sump should be in a chamber where the water level is normally stable. I know what your saying about the level going up and down on restart.

Do you have them in the skimmer section? Thats the best place for them. Even when restarting, the skimmer section should never drop below a given level. Mine is 10". This is due to the baffles being at 10", and even when the water level drops elsewhere in the sump, the minimum in the skimmer/drain section will always be the same.

Something else about the pipe being under the water is that you can have the siphon a little bit deeper than the other pipes. It helps promote the siphon on restart.

There was also something else in his thread that mentioned drilling a small hole in one of the ends of the pipes, but I don't remember for sure where that is.

It seem like your right about there though and your just minor adjustments away from being done :)


Well, after talking to Jeff at J&L, a knowledgeable guy I trust at a LFS here, I decided to go with one big sump, and some partitions they sell to divide the sump into sections for fuge etc. But water flows through them. Sump is 72*30*24, an old acrylic tank.

The tank bulges a lot, so it’s tough to cement in baffles to create a stable section where the water level stays the same. But I can see how useful that would be. I have all the materials, may have to try that.

Tom

[meander]

All lines are 1.5 “ flex PVC. They run down 14 feet to the basement sump, and run horizontally about 8-10 ft across a bedroom dropping about 8”, then into the basement shop/sump room where they run about 16.5 horizontal feet dropping about 6-7”, then a horizontal run of about 8 ft dropping 6 feet into the sump.

Is it the horizontal runs? That would mean a whole redesign of the basement, moving the sump across the sump room 15 feet.

Tom

Bean has posted pretty specifically several times in his thread at RC that this system won't work with horizontal runs. He hasn't offered any thoughts on a solution for horizontal runs, he's just said if you've got horizontal runs, you're not using his system so he can't help.

Most of the problems people have written about are not with flooding, but with noise. The issue there is that the open channel stops being an open channel if it's not pretty much vertical. The theory of operation is that the water in the open channel clings to the sides of the pipe as it washes down to the sump, but sharp bends and/or horizontal runs wreck that effect.

I'm just about to test my own basement sump beananimal, and I've unavoidably got a couple of 22.5 degree bends in my open channel. I am hoping that it will work without issues...

[braid11]

So, I bought the big hammerhead in order to both feed the DT, and to tee off the return line to feed a fuge, and possibly a carbon Reactor, and a UV unit. I can see that would make dialing in the system very very tricky.

I have the tee in there, shut off for now with a TUBV.

May have to just feed the fuge off this, and nothing else.

molotov, those 1" gate valves aren't too pricey. I am finding it very usefull to mark the valve with a magic marker, and turn 1/8 or so at a time, on both the pump return and the drain. I had planned on using the TUBV only on the fuge, but another gate valve will definitely go in there.

Tom

[braid11]

Bean has posted pretty specifically several times in his thread at RC that this system won't work with horizontal runs. He hasn't offered any thoughts on a solution for horizontal runs, he's just said if you've got horizontal runs, you're not using his system so he can't help.

Most of the problems people have written about are not with flooding, but with noise. The issue there is that the open channel stops being an open channel if it's not pretty much vertical. The theory of operation is that the water in the open channel clings to the sides of the pipe as it washes down to the sump, but sharp bends and/or horizontal runs wreck that effect.

I'm just about to test my own basement sump beananimal, and I've unavoidably got a couple of 22.5 degree bends in my open channel. I am hoping that it will work without issues...

I had read that.

I have managed to make my system go dead silent at the DT end. Not sure what it's like 1/2 way along.

I just want to make it flow a bit more than 900 GPH, and be able to restart without my assistance. Also, I think those horizontal sections makes the system take a lot longer to purge air, and to find it's equilibrium.

I'm sure yours will be fine with a couple 22.5 bends.

Tom

[fishytime]

please forgive my ignorance but......whats the advantage of the Bean overflow over the Herbie?......Ive never used one, nor do I think Ive ever seen one being used on anybodies system that Ive seen.....seems like quite a lot of extra expense (two gate valves and three bulkheads versus one gate and two bulkheads) and fiddling around with the Bean......

[Proteus]

please forgive my ignorance but......whats the advantage of the Bean overflow over the Herbie?......Ive never used one, nor do I think Ive ever seen one being used on anybodies system that Ive seen.....seems like quite a lot of extra expense (two gate valves and three bulkheads versus one gate and two bulkheads) and fiddling around with the Bean......

Über quite. Absolutely no chance of flood tank. Lol well. Once it's running.

[gregzz4]

With the Bean Animal, the 2nd and 3rd valves are only there to completely isolate those lines during maintenance.
The advantage over a Herbie is thus;

The first line takes full flow as it's completely submerged.

The second, open channel line (with the air line) may take some overage from the first, but has air introduced into it, so it takes no time to handle the overage - there is no purging. When the overflow rises enough to block the end of the air line, the second now becomes full flow.

The third line is there as a last resort/backup.

[fishytime]

Über quite. Absolutely no chance of flood tank. Lol well. Once it's running.

With the Bean Animal, the 2nd and 3rd valves are only there to completely isolate those lines during maintenance.
The advantage over a Herbie is thus;

The first line takes full flow as it's completely submerged.

The second, open channel line (with the air line) may take some overage from the first, but has air introduced into it, so it takes no time to handle the overage - there is no purging. When the overflow rises enough to block the end of the air line, the second now becomes full flow.

The third line is there as a last resort/backup.

ok.....but a Herbie does all that with two drains.....no siphon, no air line etc, etc.....

[madkeenreefer]

I have gone through this befor with a basement sump. I also have the same pump as you and hose size .
There's not a big difference in our set-ups. My horizontal run is 16'.
The most critical part for basement sump is all that horizontal laying pipe slowing
down the inertia of flow.
I have found that creating a angled as oppossed to a true horizontal run was the key to getting the air forced out of the siphon line , the other lines were all left horizontal.
In this pic you see the sipon line up higher then the rest of the lines
http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm438/madkeenreefer/DSC01187.jpg
From the top of the truss I just shimmed the return line to create a angle until I was at the bottom of the truss.
http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm438/madkeenreefer/DSC01186.jpg

Oh ps. the small drilled hole is ment to be just above the waterline when the sump is at running level, this reduces the pressure at the end of the hose which allows the air to purge.

[gregzz4]

ok.....but a Herbie does all that with two drains.....no siphon, no air line etc, etc.....
The Herbie works just fine for most, and is what I am setting up on my Aqueon 75g RR, but, the emergency line on a Herbie has to purge itself of air before it can flow full volume. For most of us, that is on the edge of flood as most of our emerg lines are high and small.
All the Bean does is place the secondary at the same height of the main, so it's less prone to floods. Then you still have an emerg as well. And all 3 are large pipe.
Plus, the Bean is self-adjusting, and our Herb's aren't fully auto.

[fishytime]

The Herbie works just fine for most, and is what I am setting up on my Aqueon 75g RR, but, the emergency line on a Herbie has to purge itself of air before it can flow full volume. For most of us, that is on the edge of flood as most of our emerg lines are high and small.
All the Bean does is place the secondary at the same height of the main, so it's less prone to floods. Then you still have an emerg

how?.....you stop the emergency just short of your water line in the sump so you can hear if the primary is clogged or needs adjusting....straight open run means no purging:wink:......

[Daimyo68]

Below is my 50g with the BA drain system. As some have mentioned here and BeanAnimal has in his threads, Horizontal is not how his system is meant to run. Vertically is the best way to make his system run optimally. There are no bends/elbows for the water to hit, causing friction, hence slowing down. Unfortunately, this isn't always possible, as you will see below.

In the first image from left to right- Secondary drain | Siphon Drain | Emergency

I have a slight horizontal run, about 4", before it 45's down to the sump. I tried to avoid this but the way the Oceanic stand is built with the center brace, I couldn't. While this isn't the way the system is designed, it does work and is quite.

If you have to go horizontal at all, it's best to make it as short as possible.

On my 75g image (SPS tank in the works), the Siphon line isn't completely vertical, but it still lets gravity do it's job. I could have drilled at the upper back corner for all 3 drains, but I didn't want my mini C2C to be offset to one side, and opted to drill at the upper center, just under the brace.

In all honesty, the "reef ready", Herbie and BeanAnimal all work with the same thing in mind, drain the water to the sump. The BeanAnimal has the advantage of a failsafe channel and +3000gph through 1.5" plumbing on a completely vertical system. I'm sure that a Herbie through 1.5" could probably do the same, if not close to gph.

When it comes down to it, do we all really need the BA system? The answer is no. I really think it's more of a "reef geek" thing. Just like PC lighting, to HO, to Halides, to T5HO, and now LED's, it's the latest/greatest thing since sliced bread :wink:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5720/p1010002h.jpg

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/623/75gdrain.jpg

[WindowMaker]

I like your judgement call on only using one valve for the BA. It doesn't make much sense to have one on every pipe when they are completely unnecessary.

[Daimyo68]

I think the 1 valve was mentioned somewhere in the second split of his thread. Luckily for me, I read that and saved some $$

[gregzz4]

how?.....you stop the emergency just short of your water line in the sump so you can hear if the primary is clogged or needs adjusting....straight open run means no purging:wink:......
Not sure what your 'how' is referencing, but, here goes ...
You can't hear it from work :mrgreen:
Remember, I'm setting up a Herbie, so don't pick on me.
I'm just stating what I've learned about the Bean.
It's self-adjusting and virtually flood-proof. The Herbie is very close to this, but is NOT flood-proof.

[gregzz4]

Oh, and for the purging ...
A Herbie takes time to get the emerg going as it has air in it, from the venturi caused by it being high/tall whatever.
The secondary on the Bean is capable of blocking it's air intake when the overflow level rises.

[gregzz4]

Below is my 50g with the BA drain system. As some have mentioned here and BeanAnimal has in his threads, Horizontal is not how his system is meant to run. Vertically is the best way to make his system run optimally. There are no bends/elbows for the water to hit, causing friction, hence slowing down. Unfortunately, this isn't always possible, as you will see below.

In the first image from left to right- Secondary drain | Siphon Drain | Emergency

I have a slight horizontal run, about 4", before it 45's down to the sump. I tried to avoid this but the way the Oceanic stand is built with the center brace, I couldn't. While this isn't the way the system is designed, it does work and is quite.

If you have to go horizontal at all, it's best to make it as short as possible.

On my 75g image (SPS tank in the works), the Siphon line isn't completely vertical, but it still lets gravity do it's job. I could have drilled at the upper back corner for all 3 drains, but I didn't want my mini C2C to be offset to one side, and opted to drill at the upper center, just under the brace.

In all honesty, the "reef ready", Herbie and BeanAnimal all work with the same thing in mind, drain the water to the sump. The BeanAnimal has the advantage of a failsafe channel and +3000gph through 1.5" plumbing on a completely vertical system. I'm sure that a Herbie through 1.5" could probably do the same, if not close to gph.

When it comes down to it, do we all really need the BA system? The answer is no. I really think it's more of a "reef geek" thing. Just like PC lighting, to HO, to Halides, to T5HO, and now LED's, it's the latest/greatest thing since sliced bread :wink:
Thanks for the pic and image.
Thought you should edit your post to not mislead others ...


From left to right, based on your valve in the center, you have yours setup as;

Emergency Standpipe
Full Siphon Standpipe
Open Channel Standpipe
You have worded your Emerg and Open reversed.

[braid11]

So, I made it home tonight.

I lifted the drains out of the sump so they were just 1/2- 1 " into the sump water level, and restarted the system. It purged the air much quicker. Level in DT did not rise above the overflow box level. No where close to an overflow, at close to 1000 GPH.

Now it's tough getting the level and noise in the DT overflow to stabalize/quiet down. The main syphon seems noisy, like air is trapped in the overflow section Tee.

It must be a residual air purge issue.

Tom

[gregzz4]

If I understand correctly, Bean runs his drain 2" below his sump level
Have you looked @ his page?
http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx/

[gregzz4]

NM, I just skimmed it and it only states 'just below the water level' or such.
I read somewhere that people are running theirs @ 2" with success. It helps draw the water down as there is no air in the lines. If your's is better now, leave it be.
Good luck with the overflow, you'll figure it out.

[Daimyo68]

Thanks for the pic and image.
Thought you should edit your post to not mislead others ...


From left to right, based on your valve in the center, you have yours setup as;

Emergency Standpipe
Full Siphon Standpipe
Open Channel Standpipe

You have worded your Emerg and Open reversed.

Thanks, I guess seeing it from the front all them time I unconsciously just labeled them while I typed it out.

[Gripenfelter]

Before throttling down, my Hammerhead sees probably max 17' head. That would be 3600 GPH, and even at 20' of head that is 3000 GPH. No wonder it overflowed the first time I tried it. I am at about 900 GPH now, so throttled down to 25-30% of max.

I think I can't get past 900 GPH because the air will not purge fast enough. My drains are about 3-4" under.

I only have about 1.25 inches from the top of the overflow box (about normal water level when all is balanced), until it flows out of the tank onto the floor. So not much time to fill the box, and purge. Maybe that is part of the problem.

Also, I read that when the drains are too deep in the sump, it takes longer to purge.

You are 6" under, and at 80% of full throttle, you must be flowing way more than 1000GPH. I know the system is supposed to be good to 2000GPH, but i can't get close to that.

So you drilled a hole in the elbow inside overflow box. You mean in the 90 elbow? Is it submerged when it's running? Because otherwise would't it suck in air and break the siphon?

Tom


Yes the elbow is submerged. I'm going to shorten the pipes though.

[braid11]

Yes the elbow is submerged. I'm going to shorten the pipes though.

Thanks, I am now in the city untill Friday. I'll try a little hole in the siphon elbow when I get home.

Tom

[gregzz4]

Thanks, I guess seeing it from the front all them time I unconsciously just labeled them while I typed it out.
Of course, I should have thought of that myself :smile:
Don't want anyone new to this getting confused

[garwood]

how?.....you stop the emergency just short of your water line in the sump so you can hear if the primary is clogged or needs adjusting....straight open run means no purging:wink:......
:mrgreen: