I'm an Idiot

[marie]

After 5 1/2 yrs of being ich free, I introduce ich to Doofus :sad:

2 weeks after I rearranged the tank, I received 2 boxes of corals and lacking any place to quarantine all of them for the required time and because some of them were in need of tlc I placed them in the tank. 2 days later doofus had a few spots, this morning (exactly 1 week later) Doofus is covered.

[hillegom]

Sorry to hear that.
If its any consolation, I have done the same thing

[lastlight]

Sorry to hear Marie. So Ich can be passed on from the water or frag itself?

[Reef Pilot]

Geez, another one.... I sure hate reading about this over and over....

If it is ich (sounds like it from your description), and you decide to QT, go the hyposalinty route, instead of chemicals that may do more harm than good. And hopefully you have a fully cycled canister that is available to prevent ammonia.

With chemicals (other than copper, which is bad for other reasons), you get false hope, as it recedes temporarily, and then comes back worse, often in the gills, and your fish will die quickly. With hypo, the 2nd leg, if you get one is milder, and then you are home free after that. The fish are much happier in hypo.

I've done both in the past, so not saying this from reading on the internet. I now QT religiously before adding new fish.

Best of luck.

[marie]

Lastlight, I believe it was transfered on the rock some of the corals were attached to.

Reef Pilot, I have treated Doofus already with copper when I first got him. Now he is a 10" fish and I don't think he will do well in a 20g hospital tank.....especially when he has 4 other tank mates that would have to be treated as well......I also don't have a tank big enough to house him for the required 8 weeks. He's going to have to get through this on his own and my house is going to smell like an italian restaurant again form all the garlic :lol:

[Reef Pilot]

Well, if your fish are healthy, chances are still good for a positive outcome. With my 1st episode, I didn't have a QT, and had no choice but to treat with some "reef safe" chemicals. Fortunately, none of my original fish died, but the new ones did.

The product I used then was Medic by Polyplab at triple dosage for a full month. The new fish didn't survive, but after a few iterations on my original tank residents, the ich finally went away. I did UV at the same time. So not saying this product works, but in my case, at least all my original tank inhabitants survived.

[lockrookie]

try a product called rid-ich plus soaking food in garlic it is completely reef safe and will save you alot of headaches... i used it with my regal and was amazed

[sully08]

I thought ich can only be spread through fish, not transfered any other way,

[globaldesigns]

I thought ich can only be spread through fish, not transfered any other way,

+1, Here is a link from liveaquaria.com:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=78

This and many other articles discuss the treatment of fish and fish only, nothing with live rock or coral. As Ich penetrates the skin and gills of the fish, I don't think your ich is from your live rock or coral additions.

Is there a doctor in the house to validate my claims? Hmmm, I just can't find anything to validate ICH from rock or coral.

[kien]

I thought ich can only be spread through fish, not transfered any other way,

Ich has a stage in its life cycle where it is free floating in the water. It is at this stage where Ich can be found virtually anywhere there is water.

http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/VITAHTML/SUBLEV/GIF/12P167.GIF

[tang daddy]

I thought ich can only be spread through fish, not transfered any other way,

The life cycle of ich is they feed on the fish then detach and lay offspring in the sand, then swim in the water column and reattach to other fish. It is very possible that they don't only remain in sand, sometimes also on coral rubble.

In Maries case, that is exactly what happened!

[globaldesigns]

Kien is right, was thinking about it attaching to things other than fish... So yes, if you got ICH from the coral/rock, it wasn't from that, it was just in the water.

Sorry to hear about your issue, keep the fish happy and stress free and all should be fine. Crossing my fingers for you.

[George]

Ich can be anywhere that is wet, sand, rock, water, fish, depdening on stages of its life cycle. The following diagram shows the life cycle of ich and normal time it spends on each cycle. In the tomont stage, ich can attach to sand, rock, coral or tank bottom. Also there are some information in the last few years suggest that the tomont stage can last up to 72 days (vs. 28 days in the diagram).

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n543/george915/Misc/ichlifecycle.jpg

[marie]

Knowing Doofus is the ultimate ich magnet I have been reasonably diligent about quaranting everything wet that goes in the tank but I have become complacent. The corals and rock arrived cold and needed to be dealt with fast.....totally my fault, I knew better and if I lose Doofus I'm not sure I will keep the big tank

[George]

If it's ich, it's easily treatable with minimum stress to fish. The hard part is that you have to treat all the fish and leave the tank fallow for 8+ weeks. Don't feel bad. I think it all comes down to luck. I don't know of anyone who is quarantining their inverts or corals. I know some quarantine fish.

[Mrfish55]

I have a spare 4 ft 90 gal sitting here if you want to setup a proper quarantine , would hate to see anything happen to good ol Doofus.

[naesco]

You know the drill Marie but for the benefit of others.
Take some dried food and soak it for 10 minutes in garlic extract (from the health food store) or Garlic Extreme from the LFS.
Dried because it will absorb more garlic than wet food.
Feed very often. The idea is to get as much garlic into the fish as fast as possible.

Continue feeding for a couple of weeks even though the spots are gone.

Good Luck. I am she he will make it.
Wayne

[Skimmerking]

OMG Marie Im so Sorry, I hope Doofy is going to be ok.

[reefwars]

Ich has a stage in its life cycle where it is free floating in the water. It is at this stage where Ich can be found virtually anywhere there is water.

http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/VITAHTML/SUBLEV/GIF/12P167.GIF

+1

[MarkoD]

The reason your fish has ich is because it's stressed for some reason.

If you have a tank full of healthy fish and dumped a gallon of ich infested water, nothing would happen.

[Aquattro]

The reason your fish has ich is because it's stressed for some reason.

If you have a tank full of healthy fish and dumped a gallon of ich infested water, nothing would happen.

You just made that up.....

[MarkoD]

You just made that up.....

Ich is all over the place in the ocean. If it was to be killing healthy fish, they'd all be dead

Just like healthy people with normal immune systems don't die from the common cold

[Aquattro]

Fish in the ocean have a vast area in which to swim, not contained in a small box with a pathogen population explosion..
Good theory, as far as theories go, but unless you have something to back that up, you made it up...

[PoonTang]

I would have to agree. I know that my tank has ich but I have seen absolutely no sign of it what so ever in over a year. The only time I ever see it is when I add a new fish to the tank and then my powder blue and purple tangs have a break out for a few weeks.

[MarkoD]

Fish in the ocean have a vast area in which to swim, not contained in a small box with a pathogen population explosion..
Good theory, as far as theories go, but unless you have something to back that up, you made it up...

I made it up based on personal experience. And I'm not the only one that has this opinion.

If ich attacks healthy non stressed fish, then wouldn't all fish in a tank be effected at the same time?

[marie]

What exactly do you think ich is :lol:
Ich IS a parasite......like fleas. Fleas are everywhere too but not every dog has fleas.
My dogs (and house)do not have fleas but if I found a carpet at the second hand store and brought it home without cleaning it properly there is a chance my dog will get fleas.

Ich is NOT a virus, it has no similarities to the common cold what so ever


Ich is all over the place in the ocean. If it was to be killing healthy fish, they'd all be dead

Just like healthy people with normal immune systems don't die from the common cold

[Aquattro]

Think of it this way. Marko lives on the planet. Venomous snakes live on the planet. Marko can probably avoid these snakes for most of his life, just going about his business. But...should we lock Marko in the bathroom, and then dump a bucket of venomous snakes in with him, well, Marko's gonna be dead.

[Bblinks]

I am so sorry to hear that Marie. please keep us updated on how he does. I did recently gone through the same with my show achilles, unfortunately my guy didn't make it. Now I have a 4 inch spicement which also contracted ick. I am gonna try uv and protomarin and hope for the best. I guess best of luck for both of us.

[MarkoD]

Think of it this way. Marko lives on the planet. Venomous snakes live on the planet. Marko can probably avoid these snakes for most of his life, just going about his business. But...should we lock Marko in the bathroom, and then dump a bucket of venomous snakes in with him, well, Marko's gonna be dead.

The way I see it is if there's and airborne diesease that kills normally healthy people. The entire world population would die fairly quickly.

I've see lots of fish survive ich untreated. I've never heard of a human surviving venomous snake bites untreated

And if you had 10 other people in the same bathroom. Why would the snakes only attack one person?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Think of it this way. Marko lives on the planet. Venomous snakes live on the planet. Marko can probably avoid these snakes for most of his life, just going about his business. But...should we lock Marko in the bathroom, and then dump a bucket of venomous snakes in with him, well, Marko's gonna be dead.

Oh this is classic! :lol:

Also true...Can't compare a closed system to the ocean.

[marie]

The way I see it is if there's and airborne diesease that kills normally healthy people. The entire world population would die fairly quickly.

I've see lots of fish survive ich untreated. I've never heard of a human surviving venomous snake bites untreated

And if you had 10 other people in the same bathroom. Why would the snakes only attack one person?

ich is not a disease. It is a tiny microscopic critter that swims through the water :lol:
Why do mosquitos bite some people and not others?......why do some people swell up and are itchy for days after being bitten by a mosquito but others aren't?.....why would you have 11 people in a bathroom?!?!

[Aquattro]

And if you had 10 other people in the same bathroom. Why would the snakes only attack one person?

smart snakes??

As Marie stated, ich isn't a disease, it's a parasite. It's like 10 people going for a hike in the swamp. Not all will find a friendly leech, but some will. Nothing to do with immune system or stress. It's a parasite.

[MarkoD]

smart snakes??

As Marie stated, ich isn't a disease, it's a parasite. It's like 10 people going for a hike in the swamp. Not all will find a friendly leech, but some will. Nothing to do with immune system or stress. It's a parasite.

It doesn't matter what it is. It's the method of transmission.

Air is to humans as water is to fish.

Virus is to humans as parasite is to fish.

If a deadly virus is in the air all humans around it will be effected.

If a parasite is in the water all fish should be effected.

But they're not, because healthy fish can resist and fight the effects of ich

[Aquattro]

It doesn't matter what it is. It's the method of transmission.

Air is to humans as water is to fish.

Virus is to humans as parasite is to fish.

If a virus is in the air all humans around it will be effected.

If a parasite is in the water all fish should be effected.

But they're not, because healthy fish can resist and fight the effects of ich

You're still making stuff up to cover up for the other stuff you made up. Virii are not comparable to parasites in any form or fashion. Just not

[Casey8]

I feel so sorry for you, Marie. You and aquattro's tank got ich just one after the other, it's terrible. It looks like people got this problem around this time of a year and into the spring.

[George]

It's true that some fish won't be dead because of ich infection. But that doesn't mean we are not going to do anything to prevent the infection. Ich can be eliminated from a tank if you know its life cycle. A fish can have ich and survive this time, but maybe not next time.
And I don't buy the theory that a fish can have immune to ich. Ich is not a virus or bacteria. it's a parasite and it can attach to anything it get in contact with.

[MarkoD]

You're still making stuff up to cover up for the other stuff you made up. Virii are not comparable to parasites in any form or fashion. Just not

Lol we'll go with your non made up theory that ich parasites are smart and only attack the fish they dislike most

[MarkoD]

It's true that some fish won't be dead because of ich infection. But that doesn't mean we are not going to do anything to prevent the infection. Ich can be eliminated from a tank if you know its life cycle. A fish can have ich and survive this time, but maybe not next time.
And I don't buy the theory that a fish can have immune to ich. Ich is not a virus or bacteria. it's a parasite and it can attach to anything it get in contact with.

A healthy fish has a slim coat over its scales and in its gills. Which keeps ich from attaching itself.

Stressed fish lose the slim coat and are more Likely to be effected by ich

[marie]

I feel so sorry for you, Marie. You and aquattro's tank got ich just one after the other, it's terrible. It looks like people got this problem around this time of a year and into the spring.


Actually Casey8, Aquattro's fish has Marine Velvet...... much more serious problem then Ich. Ich really is like fleas and at least in my mind, not usually fatal unless there are other things going on to weaken the fish

[Aquattro]

Lol we'll go with your non made up theory that ich parasites are smart and only attack the fish they dislike most

Actually, I said snakes "may" be smart. Not ich.

[MarkoD]

Actually, I said snakes "may" be smart. Not ich.

Your metaphor indicated that ich was like venomous snakes that a fish/person could avoid unless put into a aquarium/bathroom

[Mrfish55]

Anyhooo, I have a bottle of garlic extract sitting here if you want to dose his food Marie, it worked on my powder brown with no I'll effects to the reef, did make for some funky smelling skimmate tho, welcome to it if you want.

[Aquattro]

Your metaphor indicated that ich was like venomous snakes that a person/fish could avoid unless put into a bathroom/aquarium

You're losing me here. The above is correct, but not relevant to the intelligence thingy.
Ich in the wild is less likely to come into contact with a fish. When it does, the fish DOES have a protective slime coat that can "help" avoid infestation by that single ich bug, although it's not a sure fire thing. However, in a closed environment, a healthy fish is much more likely to come into contact once your bucket of ich is introduced, and while it's slime coat may assist in warding off the initial attacks, the attacks themselves may cause a cumulative build in stress that lessens the fishes chances of avoiding infestation.
Ergo, a healthy non stressed fish in an aquarium that has an over population of ich is highly at risk of contracting ich. Mostly I made this up, but it just sounds so damn good :)
However, you please believe whatever you like, and don't let me try to convince you you're wrong, just because you made stuff up. It sounds all pretty good too, you know, for made up stuff. :razz:

[Aquattro]

Anyhooo

hint taken, I'm done. Yes, Marie, I've had good success with garlic.

[marie]

Anyhooo, I have a bottle of garlic extract sitting here if you want to dose his food Marie, it worked on my powder brown with no I'll effects to the reef, did make for some funky smelling skimmate tho, welcome to it if you want.

I prefer to use fresh garlic, there are some helpful chemicals in garlic that degrade rapidly in fresh air so to get the most out of it I crush fresh everytime......It really does make my house smell like an Italian restaurant

[MarkoD]

This still doesn't explain why in a small confined place ich is only attacking 1 fish. And my made up theory still explains this better than yours. I'm done too, you can pm me when you come up with a better theory.

You're losing me here. The above is correct, but not relevant to the intelligence thingy.
Ich in the wild is less likely to come into contact with a fish. When it does, the fish DOES have a protective slime coat that can "help" avoid infestation by that single ich bug, although it's not a sure fire thing. However, in a closed environment, a healthy fish is much more likely to come into contact once your bucket of ich is introduced, and while it's slime coat may assist in warding off the initial attacks, the attacks themselves may cause a cumulative build in stress that lessens the fishes chances of avoiding infestation.
Ergo, a healthy non stressed fish in an aquarium that has an over population of ich is highly at risk of contracting ich. Mostly I made this up, but it just sounds so damn good :)
However, you please believe whatever you like, and don't let me try to convince you you're wrong, just because you made stuff up. It sounds all pretty good too, you know, for made up stuff. :razz:

[Aquattro]

I prefer to use fresh garlic, there are some helpful chemicals in garlic that degrade rapidly in fresh air so to get the most out of it I crush fresh everytime......It really does make my house smell like an Italian restaurant

Yes, the compound is Allicin; I smash the fresh cloves right onto the sheet of nori (I've usually had to feed tangs).

[marie]

Yes, the compound is Allicin; .........

That's it, I always forget how to spell it. Keep thinking there is an s in there for some reason so I find it easier to just call it a chemical :redface:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

It doesn't matter what it is. It's the method of transmission.

Air is to humans as water is to fish.

Virus is to humans as parasite is to fish.

If a deadly virus is in the air all humans around it will be effected.

If a parasite is in the water all fish should be effected.

But they're not, because healthy fish can resist and fight the effects of ich

A parasite is a living organism. They need a host to feed off of in order to replicate.

A virus is not considered to be living therefore it does not need its host for "food". Rather it needs a specific host cell to replicate. It attacks the cell itself. Both Lytic and Lysogenic Viruses destroy the host cells in order to reproduce.

Parasites are more easily dealt with via medication if the parasite type is known. There are very few medications for viruses. Virus defense is generally vaccines which usually contain the dead virus' protein coat (immune system responds to this) creating antibodies to deal with that specific virus. Once your immune system creates these antibodies, it can fight off future infection before it makes you sick.

The above method of vaccination can work for parasites but it is not used much anymore. In the case of ich, there is even a theory (I stress theory) that fish can become "immune" to ich after fighting it off. I'd believe this more if we were talking a virus but to some degree it may be true. "From my experience" does not make something fact, just one observation in an uncontrolled environment.

Bottom line, of course a stressed fish is more likely to have a compromised immune system in which viruses, bacteria and parasites will be more successful in attacking and making your fish sick but saying a "healthy" non stressed fish will not get a parasite even if a lot of the parasite is introduced to a closed system is absurd. I'd like to know how the stress level of these fish is being measured anyways. I doubt many fish in our aquariums are NOT stressed to some degree, it's actually quite amazing how well they can adapt and survive considering what they went through and continue to go through in our aquariums.

Anyway, now I'm contributing to this thread getting off track.

Sorry to hear about this Marie. One of my favorite fish over the years on Canreef...

[daniella3d]

wow...can't beleive I am reading this!

In the ocean the ick kyst are getting dispersed all over the currents and rarely they will be able to remain on a fish for very long because they get wiped away as soon as they detatch from the fish so not large scale infection can take place. However in the aquarium where the fish are so confined it is very easy for the ick to find the same fish over and over again until that poor fish is covered.

So yeah...if you dumped a bucket full of ick into a tank you would infect all of the fish in there. Has nothing to do with healthy or not healthy fish...it is a parasite and it will parasite.

Also you say you saw fish survive ick without treatment...fine....except have you ever seen fish survive marine velvet without treatment? now they are both parasites and the only reason that some fish manage to fight off ick is that it is not as nasty parasites. It's not only due to the fish fighting it off, it also has to do with the fact that ick is not such a deadly parasite as some others. If your theory about healthy fish fighting off disease would be true, then quite a bit of fish would survive velvet infestation, but that's simply not true. I guess that according to your theory, it means that a lot of fish are not heatly or they would not need medication to fight off marine velvet.



Ich is all over the place in the ocean. If it was to be killing healthy fish, they'd all be dead

Just like healthy people with normal immune systems don't die from the common cold

[Reefie]

So sorry to hear about Doofus!

I just had a recent battle with ich, completely my fault though. I didn't quarantine and picked up the 3 Tangs within 2 days of their arrival and then after a 4 hour drip-acclimation into my tank. They did fine for the first week or so, and then the Blue Hippo showed ich, and then the Powder Blue, and then finally the Yellow. I fed them Garlic drenched food for about 10 days, and the ich looked like it was receeding. Then I noticed my McCosker's Flasher Wrasse showed ich spots, so I kept up the Garlic drenched food for another few days. I went overnight to Seattle, only to come home to................all 3 Tangs dead, all 4 Dispar Anthias dead, Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse dead, and the McCosker's Flasher shows ich but is hanging on by a thread. Did an emergency 60% WC to clear out an Ammonia. The McCosker's is still hanging on, and the rest of the fish are no longer panting for air.

So, back to the theory of "healthy" fish not contracting ich.........all of the fish were healthy and not stressed even after the introduction of the Tangs. A parasite is a PARASITE, it's life cycle to infect and reproduce until it can no longer continue to do so.

My previous Tangs did have small outbreak of ich when I first got them about a year ago. I treated with Proto Marin, as it was the only reef-safe medication I could find. I didn't use the Proto Marin this time because I now have clams, which I didn't before and I read that clams may or may not react to it.

So now, every day I come home from work, I check to see if anything else has died. Pretty sad, yes I know..........

I'm not planning to re-stock for at least a few months, maybe even half a year to let the ich life-cycle run it's course. What I have learned is to QT anything new before adding it to the DT. So, if anyone knows where I can get a small 5 Gal all-in-one tank, it would be used to QT any new additions.

Marie, I really hope Doofus pulls through for you!!!

[MarkoD]

Can you explain why one fish will get ich. And it will get worse and worse as the parasite multiplies. But all the other fish in the tank are not effected?


wow...can't beleive I am reading this!

In the ocean the ick kyst are getting dispersed all over the currents and rarely they will be able to remain on a fish for very long because they get wiped away as soon as they detatch from the fish so not large scale infection can take place. However in the aquarium where the fish are so confined it is very easy for the ick to find the same fish over and over again until that poor fish is covered.

So yeah...if you dumped a bucket full of ick into a tank you would infect all of the fish in there. Has nothing to do with healthy or not healthy fish...it is a parasite and it will parasite.

Also you say you saw fish survive ick without treatment...fine....except have you ever seen fish survive marine velvet without treatment? now they are both parasites and the only reason that some fish manage to fight off ick is that it is not as nasty parasites. It's not only due to the fish fighting it off, it also has to do with the fact that ick is not such a deadly parasite as some others. If your theory about healthy fish fighting off disease would be true, then quite a bit of fish would survive velvet infestation, but that's simply not true. I guess that according to your theory, it means that a lot of fish are not heatly or they would not need medication to fight off marine velvet.

[jorjef]

Can you explain why one fish will get ich. And it will get worse and worse as the parasite multiplies. But all the other fish in the tank are not effected?

Their super fast ninja like reflexes allows them to continually dodge the onslaught of the relentless evil doers called "The Ich" ... Unno just really having some fun here.... please continue.

[daniella3d]

yes maybe...are you sure it's ick? have you id it under a microscope?

Might be just some skin irritation/pimples or a skin reaction to something.

What you describe is rare though and not representative of ich infestation.

With ich, it seem that there is different level of infection and it come be quite mild at the beginning only to become plague proportion and kill every fish at some point. Sometime it's just the opposite and it start big and become less infective after a while and only a few bits of it show up here and there.

It is very hard to predict how "virulent" an infestation of ich will turn out. I guess there are a lot of influencing factors playing a role in each situation.




Can you explain why one fish will get ich. And it will get worse and worse as the parasite multiplies. But all the other fish in the tank are not effected?

[marie]

Not only has this thread become humorous and interesting, not one person has said ........"Wow, are you ever an idiot" :lol:

[Aquattro]

not one person has said ........"Wow, are you ever an idiot" :lol:

I was going to mention that, but then thought about what that would make me :)

[christyf5]

Not only has this thread become humorous and interesting, not one person has said ........"Wow, are you ever an idiot" :lol:

LOL, that didn't even cross my mind as I also would have never thought about treating a coral for ick :doh: No red bugs? Into the tank you go! :razz:

[MarkoD]

yes maybe...are you sure it's ick? have you id it under a microscope?

Might be just some skin irritation/pimples or a skin reaction to something.

What you describe is rare though and not representative of ich infestation.

With ich, it seem that there is different level of infection and it come be quite mild at the beginning only to become plague proportion and kill every fish at some point. Sometime it's just the opposite and it start big and become less infective after a while and only a few bits of it show up here and there.

It is very hard to predict how "virulent" an infestation of ich will turn out. I guess there are a lot of influencing factors playing a role in each situation.

and you're not willing to admit that the the scale of the infestation is determined by whether the fish are stressed or not?

I've put new fish into my tank that get covered in ich, sometimes they live, sometimes they dont. but i've never put in a new fish with ich and have it spread to the existing fish in my tank.

[Aquattro]

but i've never put in a new fish with ich and have it spread to the existing fish in my tank.

I have...

[lockrookie]

i have too ich is my nemesis

[Doug]

Looking at Marie,s reef aquarium, her experience, her success with both corals and fish, I will take her at her word.

Here hoping he makes in back to health.

[fishoholic]

Not only has this thread become humorous and interesting, not one person has said ........"Wow, are you ever an idiot" :lol:

+1 I've had that thought before but didn't want to get in trouble for saying it.

Most fish can fight off ich, I hope he'll pull through and be ok. Usually it's only when they're really stressed that they can't fight it off. The only thing that I can think of, that could be stressing him out, is that he's getting to a size were your tank is a bit to small for him, but he's been healthy for so long it seems likely that he'll pull through.

[Chin_Lee]

I find most fish will show the signs of Ich and will take about 4-8 days before they build up enough of their immune system to fight it off. So don't worry Marie....... DOOFUS CAN DO IT.

[daniella3d]

That surely can have an influence, but I also beleive that ich can have different force or strength with different strain of the parasites. It is said that after about 10 generations the ich exhaust itself and disapear unless some new strain is re-introduced. It might be that some strain of ich are more nasty than others.

It's the same with bacterial infection, some fish might fight it and some might not, but when a very virulent strain of bacteria is on the loose very little can escape because it multiply too fast and get to a plague proportion.

It hapened to me with discus and discus plague. Had to treat all my fish for many days with permaganate potassium to save them but usually fish can fight off bacterias, unless you introduce a strain that is very nasty.

I guess it can be like the flesh eating bacteria. It is a bacteria often found in the environment and usualy does not cause trouble, until a strain of it start to attack people's flesh.

Just a theory :)

Or just like some strain of flukes have now developed a resistance to prazipro and are nearly impossible to kill whereas some strain of flukes (same specie) are killed easily.



and you're not willing to admit that the the scale of the infestation is determined by whether the fish are stressed or not?

I've put new fish into my tank that get covered in ich, sometimes they live, sometimes they dont. but i've never put in a new fish with ich and have it spread to the existing fish in my tank.

[doch]

First of all, I'm pretty sure that in my readings I had found that ich is present in every tank, but a healthy fish is able to fight them off. I'm going to have to agree with Marko (except for the gallon of ich in a tank part), but unfortunately I won't be able to back it up.

Second, what about a neon goby and/or cleaner wrase (preferably the goby as the wrasses don't have great track records)? Cleaner shrimp? My regal tang ends up with ich on occassion and when he's got it, he spends a lot of time with me neon goby... and then he's fine. Just a suggestion.

Also, out of curiosity, what kind of fish is Doofus?

[Chin_Lee]

Doofus is an Achilles Tang

[marie]

This is a Doofus, ich is very obvious on him
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/P4230102.jpg
Ich is present in every tank that has not practiced rigorous quarantining. Everyone is agreed that ich needs fish to survive so if a tank has been fallow (no fish, nothing new added)) for at least 8 weeks then it would stand to reason the ich would die out. Then if every fish has gone through hyposalinity or copper treatment before being added to tank......where exactly could the ich come from? it doesn't manufacture itself from thin air/water :lol:
My tank has gone through that and for 5 1/2 yrs Doofus has never had a single white spot on him



First of all, I'm pretty sure that in my readings I had found that ich is present in every tank, but a healthy fish is able to fight them off. I'm going to have to agree with Marko (except for the gallon of ich in a tank part), but unfortunately I won't be able to back it up.

Second, what about a neon goby and/or cleaner wrase (preferably the goby as the wrasses don't have great track records)? Cleaner shrimp? My regal tang ends up with ich on occassion and when he's got it, he spends a lot of time with me neon goby... and then he's fine. Just a suggestion.

Also, out of curiosity, what kind of fish is Doofus?

[lastlight]

Few things I've read (don't know if they're true but hey I read them on the internet)

- Ich disappearing has nothing to do with it going away. Is no reason to really celebrate as it's just gone to a new stage in its life cycle

- cleaners and shrimp don't really do much for the ich itself (myth) besides itch the spot and pick off loose scales.

[Reefie]

Marie,

I've admired your tank from a far, and from what I've seen you'd be far from being an "idiot." Until reading this thread, I never knew that ich or some other parasites could be transferred from corals. So this thead is not ONLY entertaining, but informative as well. Hahaha!

Not only has this thread become humorous and interesting, not one person has said ........"Wow, are you ever an idiot" :lol:

[Lance]

Sorry to hear Marie. Let me know if you need a hand with anything.
Even though Ich is the Achille's Achilles, Doofus is fit as a fiddle and I'm sure he will be just fine.
Ever since my nasty episode with Ich & MV I've kept a QT tank set up. Anything going in the tanks stays in QT until I'm satisfied it's healthy. And you taught me that so I can call you an idiot. :mrgreen:

[lastlight]

Sorry to hear Marie. Let me know if you need a hand with anything.
Even though Ich is the Achille's Achilles, Doofus is fit as a fiddle and I'm sure he will be just fine.
Ever since my nasty episode with Ich & MV I've kept a QT tank set up. Anything going in the tanks stays in QT until I'm satisfied it's healthy. And you taught me that so I can call you an idiot. :mrgreen:

You do this with new coral too Lance? This is honestly the first time I heard of people treating coral like fish as far as qt goes. I thought the good reefers dipped... and the bad reefers just tossed corals in.

[marie]

........ so I can call you an idiot. :mrgreen:

I knew I could at least count on you Lance :lol:

You do this with new coral too Lance? This is honestly the first time I heard of people treating coral like fish as far as qt goes. I thought the good reefers dipped... and the bad reefers just tossed corals in.

Once you have gone through the hassle of quarantining your fish, it only makes sense to carry through.....Ideally one should quarantine everything wet for at least 6 weeks.
Normally I quarantine everything for at least a couple of weeks. I have a tank with live rock and sand that is just for that purpose... but 27 pieces of coral some on largish rock, kind of overwhelmed me.......

[lastlight]

You can watch a fish for parasites though how would you ever see it on rock or coral? Or is the idea that these things could potentially be on these surfaces but cannot live 6 weeks without a fish?

[marie]

.......Or is the idea that these things could potentially be on these surfaces but cannot live 6 weeks without a fish?

^^^^^^^^^This one^^^^^^ :lol:

Also the coral can be monitored for flatworms, aiptasia, majanos and anything else one really doesn't want to have to remove from the display

[Reefie]

Any updates on Doofus?

Hoping for some good news..........

[marie]

Any updates on Doofus?

Hoping for some good news..........

He is now called Spot, poor guy. He's covered head to tail with spots and is scratching on everything but he's still eating and he now has a cleaner wrasse following him everywhere. The copperband is quite put out that Doofus is hogging all the cleaning services :lol:

[Mrfish55]

I have a uv sterilizer sitting here doing nothing, if you want to put it on the tank to help with any waterborne cysts your welcome to borrow it, can't hurt.

[fishytime]

Good to hear Doofus is a fighter..... Agreed that a UV sterilizer couldn't hurt.....

[lastlight]

I'm saying some reef prayers for your boy Marie. Both my tangs have ich right now but only my Kole is flashing or showing any signs of irritation. I hate it but I'm going to hope for the best and also not add any fish for a year and let this run its course. Is Doofus still a pig? Everyone in my tank feeds like its their last meal.

[marie]

Doofus is still a pig but it is sooo hard to look at him now. For 5 1/2 yrs he looked flawless, now he just looks a mess and it makes me feel guilty but I don't have the means to quarantine him for 8 weeks until my new tank gets here

[Delphinus]

A UV can actually tip the scales and make a difference more than you might think as long as it is appropriately sized. You want something as big as possible, 50w or up, anything less might work to clarify the water somewhat but won't be effective as a prophylactic (or whatever the correct term is for this). Ideally one with a wiper to keep the lamp tube as clean as possible and a new lamp (just like a halide or a t5 they lose effectiveness over time).

[sphelps]

Without starting a debate I just wanted to add that my success rate with fish "overwhelmed" with ich and UV is as follows:

With UV -> 100%
Without -> 0%

That said there are many crappy UVs out there, you need a big boy running inline to make difference.

[Bblinks]

I got the largest coralife uv sterlizer empolyed to eliminate the ick in my tank also, I am a stronge beliver in uv sterlizer and my achilles is looking a lot better then prior to it.

I have also used a product called protomarin, the dosing regime is a bit tricky but I have saved my hippo, powder blue using this stuff. It is said to be reefsafe and even with heavy sps and clams in the tank, it really worked wonders.

Good luck on the battle. my thought on the subject is just to feed heavy with garlic and selcom, uv filter, and lastly if must "reef safe" medication.

[Lance]

Hang in there Doofus. You too Marie. Fingers crossed over here.

[Delphinus]

This is the UV I have myself (and had success controlling ich with):
http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=UV-AUA00067

Your tank is bigger than the one I ran this on myself so you might want to look at a higher wattage (although the manufacturers website seems to suggest it can be used as a sterilizer on SW tanks up to 350gal. More info here - http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/uvsterilizers/classic/57watt ). Bigger ones seem to double up on the lamps so 80w is really 2 40w units, 114 is really 2 57w units and so on.

[christyf5]

hows Doofus doing?

[marie]

He's still Ichy....all my fish are ichy even my mandarins but they seem to be all coping with it, poor things. Anthony sent me up a uv sterilizer but I haven't had the time or patience to figure out how to hook it up yet

[Casey8]

He's still Ichy....all my fish are ichy even my mandarins but they seem to be all coping with it, poor things. Anthony sent me up a uv sterilizer but I haven't had the time or patience to figure out how to hook it up yet


Anthony is such a nice guy. He was lending his UV for me too. It is very easy to set it up, but you need to rinse it well first, I think Anthony never rinsed his :razz:

[marie]

My observations of ich

1 Ich does not appear to be fatal. My fish have 0 tolerance for ich, having gone for many years in an ich free enviroment. Doofus for nearly 6 yrs, mandarins for 5 yrs, copperband for 4+ yrs and harry the hawkfish for 3 yrs. At one point a few weeks ago Doofus was nearly white he was covered so badly, right now he is in a relatively quiet time, his body just looks like the milky way

2 Garlic does not work to get rid of ich

3 6 weeks is not long enough to build up immunity

[fishytime]

My observations of ich

Garlic does not work to get rid of ich

Good to hear Doofus is still fighting it.....What kind of garlic are you using Marie?

[marie]

Good to hear Doofus is still fighting it.....What kind of garlic are you using Marie?


I'm using the fresh stuff, crushed and used immediately.....I'm reaallyy tired of the smell of garlic, it permeates everything :lol:

[christyf5]

They're hard to find but apparently a diatom filter can remove ick, well the free floating stuff anyways. not sure if you could eventually get rid of it that way?

[George]

well, I think a diatom filter is as useless as a UV filter in terms of figting ich. You have to some how get all the free swimming ich to get pass the diatom filter or the UV filter before they attach to fish in order for them to work, assuming the filter is the right size with correct flow rate. That is not possible. You fail even if one ich parasite finds the fish before it goes through the filter.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

This is a brand new UV sterilizer. 35 or 36w. I think for your tank, just screw on the clear plastic nozzles, add a couple of short pieces of vinyl tubing and add a powerhead in the display tank. You could stick it in the sump, but I think if you somehow position so it stays on your display tank you should be better off. Maybe zapstrap it onto something. Even a MJ1200 would work but its big enough you can go with more flow.