Treating Velvet?

[Aquattro]

Anyone ever use chloroquine phosphate for treatment?

[Chin_Lee]

No Brad. Sorry to hear if you have it. The only thing that kinda worked was praying and even then..... wasn't good.
good luck

[Aquattro]

Lots of info that it works well, but all the dosing articles are based off using the salt, and I only have access to the tablets. It seems to have a range of safe dosage, so if I don't find an answer in the next few hours, I'm gonna wing it...

[Borderjumper]

how are the fish? Is it velvet Brad?

[Aquattro]

how are the fish? Is it velvet Brad?

If I have any fish left by the weekend, I'll be surprised. Lots of the issue is NH3 in the newly setup tank.
I'm pretty sure it's velvet, from what I know (which is next to squat) about fish disease.
However, chloroquine treats that, ich and brook, so that's the next step. I just need to figure out how much of the tabs to use...

[Delphinus]

:( I'm so sorry to hear this.

[hillegom]

Tagging along

[christyf5]

So sorry to hear this Brad. Maybe leaving them in the display was a better idea? I hope the chlorowhatsit works for you :neutral:

[hillegom]

Would it be beneficial if you run a UV sterilizer? It would cut down on the total # of swimming pathogens.

[christyf5]

not sure if it helps but some dude scanned an article in this thread, they at least talk about dosage sort of:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2027415

[Aquattro]

Honestly, I've done more harm putting them in a new treatment tank. The queen and wrasse are moments away from dead, the naso probably won't see morning. A clown is looking bad. The leopard wrasse seems fine, as do the 2 chromis and the mandarin. Yellow tang seems normal, hippo tang is dusted up pretty bad, but still swimming.

I just need to know the dosage using tabs, but at this point, I'm going to guess and just add 20mg/l of the tabs. I can't do any more harm than I've done already :(

[christyf5]

doesn't it say on the box? It usually has to state the amount of "active ingredient". Then you can base it on the weight of the tablet and dose that way??

[Aquattro]

doesn't it say on the box? It usually has to state the amount of "active ingredient". Then you can base it on the weight of the tablet and dose that way??

It's in tablet form. Each 250mg has 155mg active Chloroquine, but I think I need to dose mg/l based on compound weight, not active ingredient. All articles are for the salt, which doesn't account for filler. So it would still be close I guess, but I've sent a note to a compounding pharm to see if they have powdered. If not, I'll get the tabs tomorrow, which will of course be too late..

[Aquattro]

queen angel just died....

[christyf5]

pound it into little bits with a spoon or if Christy has a mortar and pestle, then go with x amount of that. crapola, I thought you had the stuff tonight, can't you call Japarto's hotline?

[christyf5]

Aw Brad, sorry to hear this :sad:

[Borderjumper]

So Sorry Brad.........

[lastlight]

Sorry man =(

[Aquattro]

pound it into little bits with a spoon or if Christy has a mortar and pestle, then go with x amount of that. crapola, I thought you had the stuff tonight, can't you call Japarto's hotline?

He won't have it, it's from the pharmacy. I need a prescription to get it

[christyf5]

Ohh, ok I thought this was the stuff you got from Japarto originally.

[muck]

=(

[Aquattro]

Well, done for the night, kidlet just got home from the hospital, gotta go take care of her. I'll update the "list" in the morning...

[Rondelet]

A friend on another board suggested I have a look so I thought I would jot down a few comment/observations for everyone’s benefit.

1. Target dose rate for chloroquine phosphate usually ranges from 10-40 mg/L, nominal (i.e. the dose that is calculated – but may not be the actual dose). Unfortunately there is some confusion in the literature. I would suggest you target 20 mg/L since your using a treatment tank with minimal things to take up space and put your volume estimate off.

2. The dose rate is based on the active ingredient – not the weight of the table. So if the package says each tablet contains 155 mg active ingredient that is what you would use for calculations. The rest of the tablet is comprised of binders and other such non-medicinal ingredients (unless it contains something else).

3. What is the volume of your treatment tank? If, for example, it's 30 gal; to achieve a dose rate of 20 mg/L, you would need around 15 tablets. That is 30 gal = 113 L x 20 (mg/L) = 2,260 mg /155 mg/tablet = 14.5 or 15 tablets.

4. Tablets should be ground up and added to a small volume of tank water to get them into solution. If you notice it is not going in, you can a little alcohol to see if this helps.

5. Treatments are usually 10 days. The usual suggestion is to treat you water for 5 days at the target dose and then do a 50% water change with make-up water at the correct dose rate.

6. With all treatment of this nature it is important to keep an eye on your fish in case they react negatively – although it sounds like they are far enough gone that there is probably not much (or much else) you can do.

7. Lastly, chloroquine is known to be toxic to invertebrates – how much is hard to say as this will depend on many variables. Just something to keep in mind. Since your fish are in a treatment tank I’m not sure why you don’t just treat with copper – which is effective against velvet and, as a bonus, you can monitor the actual treatment concentration.

As you’ve realized, a treatment tank is great idea – but a big problem if you don’t have a system running in the background that is fully cycled. If you have to set up a treatment tank to deal with an emergency the only way you can manage water quality is with a lot of water changes which presents a problem maintaining the treatment dose.

Good luck with it.

Hope this helps.

[Aquattro]

Myron, thanks. The part I wasn't sure of was active vs. all ingredients. The tabs are 155mg active ingredient, so I'll calculate that way. I do have rock in the tank, although nothing else (inverts, etc) so should be fine, I don't believe this stuff adsorbs to carbonates.
total volume of water currently in tank is ~45g, so I'll need 11 tabs to treat at 10mg/l. Do you suggest that, or the higher dosage Geomans has suggested (20mg/l)?

I currently have enough bio-filtration to handle the NH3 of the fish, assuming this doesn't compromise the bacterial bed. I've read it doesn't.

[Rondelet]

As a rule, higher doses are better - provided your fish can tolerate it. If you're confident with your volume/dose calculation I would go with the higher dose - although I must admit I don't know what the therapeutic margin of chloroquine sulphate is. My guess is that it is reasonable (i.e., better than copper) but depends on the species of fish water chemistry specifics.

[Aquattro]

It sounds like people dose the initial amount, then retreat without water changes, resulting, in my mind, a cumulative dosage much higher than suggested. I did read though, a couple of note on fish mortality blamed on too high of a dose. So, not sure. Bob Goemans in one article suggested 20mg/l, although most references say 10mg/l as a single treatment for 10 days.
I'll try your suggested method of a single dose, then a water change 5 days later with an adjusted dose.

[hillegom]

I read in one of the articles last night that light degrades the CP. So it might not be a cumulative dose.
If you only dose the one time for 10 days maybe just keep the lights low or only on for a short time.

[Aquattro]

I've just got a small light on the tank, and will dose again in 5 days.

[Rondelet]

So how did you make out? Any updates?

[Aquattro]

So how did you make out? Any updates?

Probably got the med in too late, lost a few more fish. I've got 8 fish in the treatment now. We'll see how the next few days goes. I ordered some CP today from the US, I'll use that to treat the new fish when that day comes.

[daniella3d]

Where did you buy it from?

Probably got the med in too late, lost a few more fish. I've got 8 fish in the treatment now. We'll see how the next few days goes. I ordered some CP today from the US, I'll use that to treat the new fish when that day comes.

[Aquattro]

Where did you buy it from?

I ordered a kilo from the states. Should last a few life times :)

[daniella3d]

or might as well sell some to people who might need it and get back some of that cost. :)

but where exactly did you buy it? is that something you can disclose?

I ordered a kilo from the states. Should last a few life times :)

[Aquattro]

or might as well sell some to people who might need it and get back some of that cost. :)

but where exactly did you buy it? is that something you can disclose?

I don't have the site handy, but the link is in this or my other thread..

[Aquattro]

Update on the remaining fish: I've treated 2 doses of the chloroquine phosphate at 10mg/l, and the fish all now appear to be healthy and happy. Except that they aren't in the big tank :)

I also still have 2 small fish in the display that won't get sick and die. Not sure how to deal with that...

[lastlight]

That's mostly great to hear man. Maybe start wanting them to live? That should kill them pretty fast lol.

[Aquattro]

Maybe start wanting them to live? That should kill them pretty fast lol.

Tried that, no good. Built a little trap to fit between the corals, they laughed.

[lastlight]

Try dosing plugged-in alarm clock radio. Easy to find and guaranteed results if you forgo gfi.

[hillegom]

Have you tried fishing with a small barbless hook?

[Aquattro]

Have you tried fishing with a small barbless hook?

Probably not going to catch a mandarin with a hook :)

[Delphinus]

I also still have 2 small fish in the display that won't get sick and die. Not sure how to deal with that...

Is it imperative that they be dealt with? Is it not possible that maybe they don't have velvet and thus are OK to be left alone and that would be a GoodThing(tm)? Or are we worried that they are carriers?

[lastlight]

After Brad's troubles I think he'd be insane to re-introduce with those fish in there especially since he's going to qt a whole bunch of new fish. Might have to drain that thing again Brad...

[TimT]

Hi Brad,

Two options for the mandarin.

Slurper gun or the Philippine method of small harpoon. You could modify a gravel vac and siphon mandarin into it then cover the end. Just remove the siphon hose and stick your finger over where the hose attaches. Move the open end within a few inches of Mandarin and remove your finger from gravel vacuum hose barb. The suction should get the mandarin up into the vac.

You could catch the Mandarin like they do in the Philippines. Attach a needle to a stick and harpoon it through the top fin. ;)

Cheers,
Tim

ps Thats why Mandarins are not cyanide caught... too east to get them with a harpoon or slurper.

[Aquattro]

Is it imperative that they be dealt with? Is it not possible that maybe they don't have velvet and thus are OK to be left alone and that would be a GoodThing(tm)? Or are we worried that they are carriers?

They could have built immunity to it and thus still carry it. I really would like the tank empty for 2 months before I add fish back.

[Aquattro]

Might have to drain that thing again Brad...

The problem is there is so much rock work and hiding places, that even then it might not solve the issue. The first drain, we couldn't even see them.

[Aquattro]

Tim, the problem with that is I can't get anywhere near the fish, I've arranged the rock to really provide protection from predators (me). I might try the harpoon, but it's likely to go through head, not fin.

[lastlight]

the egg crate partitions worked well for me. I'd suggest having a spotter to keep and eye on where the fish are as you assemble the fences though to avoid redos.

Slurper sounds interesting although once INTO the rock I can't imagine the suction being strong enough to get him out.

[Lance]

Mandarins have a very heavy slime coat and are usually pretty disease-resistant; but that's not to say they aren't a carrier. Twas me I'd get the sucker out of there somehow. Good luck Brad.

[Aquattro]

Mandarins have a very heavy slime coat and are usually pretty disease-resistant; but that's not to say they aren't a carrier. Twas me I'd get the sucker out of there somehow. Good luck Brad.

That's what I thought until the mate died from this :(

[Tom R]

About 15 months ago I got what at first I thought was Ich, it was in fact Marine Velvet.

I had not introduced any new fish into my tanks for months prior to this so I am not sure where it came from.

Looking back on this I am still amazed at just how fast it wiped out my fish population. I did not have the ability to set up an isolation tank nor as it turned out did I have the time. I lost 80% of my fish population in 10 days.

After a long discussion with J&L I decided to treat my mixed reef tanks with PROTO MARIN.

All in all it did not cause any problems with my Corals other than a few if them slimmed up.

Of the fish I had left (mostly Tangs and Damsels) any that were showing symptoms of velvet cleared up within a few days.

I am not sure that the PROTO MARIN cleaned up the Velvet or whether the Velvet had just not effected those fish that survived never showed any symptoms of Velvet at all.

I was now faced with the same problem that you are in. Were the remaining fish carriers or were they cured by the PROTO MARIN.

I decided that rather than breaking down my system and rebuilding it (I would likely loosing the majority of my corals) I would let the system run without adding any new fish for 6 months and if the Velvet did not repeat itself I would add some fish after that.

I have since added a few new fish mostly Tangs without any problems. I never lost one coral in this whole ordeal.

Good luck with your decision.

Tom R

[Borderjumper]

Try using a mirror as bait. I just caught my six line in the trap by putting a mirror against the back of the trap. he couldn't resist going in and fighting with the "new" fish. mandarins can be ruthless with other mandarins.

[daniella3d]

I don,t think it was velvet then...it would not be cured by a reef safe med.

The only reef safe med that might have a chance against velvet in a reef tank, and that's not guarantee, is peroxyde hydrogen and maybe metronidazole.

Ingredients in protomarin is methylen blue, malachite green, gentian violet and acridine (an antiseptic). Not sure all of these are reef safe and not sure it is efficient against velvet. I have read over and over again that the only med really effective against velvet is copper and chloroquinine. Peroxyde seem promissing and reef safe but dosing is delicate.


About 15 months ago I got what at first I thought was Ich, it was in fact Marine Velvet.

I had not introduced any new fish into my tanks for months prior to this so I am not sure where it came from.

Looking back on this I am still amazed at just how fast it wiped out my fish population. I did not have the ability to set up an isolation tank nor as it turned out did I have the time. I lost 80% of my fish population in 10 days.

After a long discussion with J&L I decided to treat my mixed reef tanks with PROTO MARIN.

All in all it did not cause any problems with my Corals other than a few if them slimmed up.

Of the fish I had left (mostly Tangs and Damsels) any that were showing symptoms of velvet cleared up within a few days.

I am not sure that the PROTO MARIN cleaned up the Velvet or whether the Velvet had just not effected those fish that survived never showed any symptoms of Velvet at all.

I was now faced with the same problem that you are in. Were the remaining fish carriers or were they cured by the PROTO MARIN.

I decided that rather than breaking down my system and rebuilding it (I would likely loosing the majority of my corals) I would let the system run without adding any new fish for 6 months and if the Velvet did not repeat itself I would add some fish after that.

I have since added a few new fish mostly Tangs without any problems. I never lost one coral in this whole ordeal.

Good luck with your decision.

Tom R

[Aquattro]

Good luck with your decision.

Tom R

Thanks Tom. Not sure I can look at the tank for 6 months with no fish. You know, other than the two pesky little ones that won't die...

[Aquattro]

Try using a mirror as bait. I just caught my six line in the trap by putting a mirror against the back of the trap. he couldn't resist going in and fighting with the "new" fish. mandarins can be ruthless with other mandarins.

hmmm.......:)

[Aquattro]

Just a bump for the person that wanted some chloroquine, looks like I misplaced your PM...sorry:redface:

[Aquattro]

Woohoo!!! Caught the f'n goby. Tried the fish hook thing, worked great. Count down to restocking can begin today.

[christyf5]

Woohoo!!! Caught the f'n goby. Tried the fish hook thing, worked great. Count down to restocking can begin today.

yee haw!! :mrgreen:

[Casey8]

Brad, you can get one more tatoo to celebrate this victory :razz:

[Aquattro]

Brad, you can get one more tatoo to celebrate this victory :razz:

No, pretty much done with that :)

[StirCrazy]

Woohoo!!! Caught the f'n goby. Tried the fish hook thing, worked great. Count down to restocking can begin today.

did you use a barbless hook and are you doing catch and release? :mrgreen:

Steve

[reefwars]

i know what brad had for supper:P

[Aquattro]

Pesto linguine :) The goby is safe and sound in the treatment tank, once he's gone through QT, he'll be up for adoption if anyone wants him.

[Borderjumper]

Pesto linguine :) The goby is safe and sound in the treatment tank, once he's gone through QT, he'll be up for adoption if anyone wants him.
Me please...:mrgreen:

[Aquattro]

Me please...:mrgreen:

Done!

[reefwars]

Me please...:mrgreen:

Done!


5mins.....fast sale:P