Might have to eat my own words re: quarantine

[Aquattro]

So it looks like something I've added may have introduced velvet into my tank. Lost a tang yesterday, and it looks like my filefish isn't going to make it through the day. I've never actually seen velvet, so not sure that's what it is, but more of the fish are developing marks on them, and I'm not optimistic that this is going to end well.

Options? Best way to deal with this is find new tank, set it up somewhere, tear apart reef, catch fish and treat. Hope that the tank can go back together in some sort of fashion without killing all my corals.

What's option "B"?

As an aside, I won't be bringing any frags to the swap today, probably not worth the risk of spreading this.

[MarkoD]

Try herbtana. It's reef safe

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

That's terrible. I've gone through it myself and so have some friends.

Leaving it untreated will almost guarantee a near wipeout. Its a PITA but catching them out and treating them with some copper-based med. like Cupramine I think is the only way to stop M.V.

It looks like ick but much more small white specks and then it just coats the fish till they look kinda fuzzy. Nasty, nasty stuff.

Hope you come out of this better than I did. It almost caused me to quit the hobby.

Anthony

[Borderjumper]

CRAP! I've never seen velvet either so I don't have anything to offer, other than just... CRAP!:sad:

[Acipenser]

Ouch that's my biggest fear. I don't have a quarantine tank either - so far I have been lucky -

[ScubaSteve]

Get a hold of Chin, Anthony or Tom R. They gone through this. Biggest thing is to act fast. Is it a reef tank or fowlr?

[Aquattro]

Get a hold of Chin, Anthony or Tom R. They gone through this. Biggest thing is to act fast. Is it a reef tank or fowlr?

Full SPS reef with no chance of catching the fish. I'd have to tear it down.

[Aquattro]

so far I have been lucky -

I guess I have too, been doing this 12 years and I've never really seen velvet. Except I guess at Anthony's house, but mine aren't gasping.

[marie]

Advanced marine velvet makes the fish look like they have been coated with flour, copper treatment and quarantine is the best way to treat it.

Fish with marine velvet get very twitchy and hide in the rocks

you can do the freshwater dip but that means having multiple hospital tanks where you dip the fish and put them in a fresh hospital tank every couple of days.......very labour intensive

[Aquattro]

Just lost the filefish. The problem is catching any of these fish, I'd really have to tear the tank apart. I may have to try and catch what I can with the fish trap, catch my wrasses at night while in the sand. The smaller ones might have to stay in, like the damsels and spotted goby. I'm going to try and set up a tank and catch what I can...

[marie]

Good luck, helplessly watching all the fish die is the worst experience ever......

[Aquattro]

Good luck, helplessly watching all the fish die is the worst experience ever......

Ya, 2 down so far. I'm going to set up a tank and see what I can catch, then decide how to proceed. I may have to sacrifice a couple of smaller fish to save the corals. Tearing apart a tank this size with the amount of SPS I have would end badly.

[The Grizz]

Oh Crap Brad, I had Velvet hit my 65 gal ( total loss ) when I first started SW and could not find anyone around here that could help ( before CanReef) Good luck bud, I hope it turns out not to be MV.

[reefwars]

Just lost the filefish. The problem is catching any of these fish, I'd really have to tear the tank apart. I may have to try and catch what I can with the fish trap, catch my wrasses at night while in the sand. The smaller ones might have to stay in, like the damsels and spotted goby. I'm going to try and set up a tank and catch what I can...


might be best to see if someone can come give you a hand catching the fish or if you have to move rocks and such its always nice having a dry pair of hands on stand by.

sorry to hear about your fish man id say marie is right get em out and treated asap

[Aquattro]

Greg, pretty sure it is. It hit fast and hard. The filefish was only slightly a concern at 8am. Dead at 10:15.

Denny, the problem is I can't move rock. The design of the tank is such that all the corals essentially encrust the top layer of rock. If I start moving rock, I might as well tear the tank down.

[The Grizz]

Greg, pretty sure it is. It hit fast and hard. The filefish was only slightly a concern at 8am. Dead at 10:15.

Denny, the problem is I can't move rock. The design of the tank is such that all the corals essentially encrust the top layer of rock. If I start moving rock, I might as well tear the tank down.

AH SHYTE!! wish I could offer help bud, this sucks. Good luck

[Borderjumper]

For those of you that have had this.. Is this the way it usually happens? If MV can kill so fast, it doesn't make sense to me that it would take 5-6 weeks AFTER introducing it into your tank for the outbreak to occur.

[marie]

MV appears to kill fast because it isn't obvious in the early stages, fish appear to be a bit off colour (pale) and twitchy. It's only the final stage that it becomes obvious that there is a parasite in action

[The Grizz]

I have no idea what triggered it in my 65 gal but I did add a few coral and a couple fish a few weeks prior to MV totally wiping out the tank. Tried to treat all the fish but it was to late.

[Aquattro]

For those of you that have had this.. Is this the way it usually happens? If MV can kill so fast, it doesn't make sense to me that it would take 5-6 weeks AFTER introducing it into your tank for the outbreak to occur.

That is what has me puzzled. The last addition was maybe 5, 6 weeks ago. The fish was doing well, no marks, eating, not stressed. I would expect the pathogen to hit in week 1, not a month and a half later.

[marie]

Brad, draining the tank of water may be the easiest way to go especially if you have someone else who can see where the fish are hiding and maybe gently keep the fish from going behind the rocks. I managed to catch all my fish including 2 neon gobies out of my fully stocked 175g that way without moving any rocks or corals

[fishoholic]

Here's a link to my old thread about MV nasty stuff. http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51938 I have pic's maybe a video of what it looks like in the final stages.

FYI some fish are immune to MV and even if one fish is left in the display and doesn't show signs of MV it can be a carrier of MV and when you reintroduce the fish you were able to treat they could catch it again. It took 2-3 weeks before signs were noticeable in my tank. I also didn't want to tear down and catch everything at first and lost a lot of fish I probably could of saved if I had acted quicker :sad:

Here's a link to my photobucket MV pic's and video http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/BRA/

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I thought it was ick, treated tank with reef-safe herbal ick medication and then it turned out it was MV and lost thousands in fish. All our favourites, including Poofie the Porcupine puffer, 2 Purple tangs etc. etc. Know for a fact that my ordeal and TomR's started with Atlantic Blue tangs.

[Aquattro]

Brad, draining the tank of water may be the easiest way to go especially if you have someone else who can see where the fish are hiding and maybe gently keep the fish from going behind the rocks. I managed to catch all my fish including 2 neon gobies out of my fully stocked 175g that way without moving any rocks or corals

not sure I have 180g of containers, but good idea.

[Aquattro]

Here's a link to my old thread about MV nasty stuff. http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51938

Thanks Laurie. I googled velvet last night and it brought up your thread, I read it last night.
I think the drain tank idea might work if I can find enough storage....

[lastlight]

Oh crap Brad this is terrible to read about. I understand you not wanting to rip that reef apart since it's been a raging success since startup meaning a lot of rocks are now one.

Reading this has convinved me now that a qt tank is a must. Good luck I hope you save most of them :cry:

[hillegom]

That sucks, hope it all works out for you.
Never having had MV sorry I can't offer any advice.

[Reef Pilot]

Quarantine works best with new fish before adding them to the display tank and using an already set up and fully cycled QT. If you have to set up a new QT, then you will be dealing with cycle problems/risk, which will just cause more stress to your fish. And not to mention the stress of catching them and tearing apart your display tank.

So your best option at this point is probably to just feed them well, garlic, selcon, etc, and maybe try some reef safe remedies that others say have worked. And hope that your fishes' immune system kicks in and fights off the ick or velvet. Hopefully you have ick, not velvet. You may lose the new fish and the weaker ones, but hopefully your stronger long term fish will survive.

I learned my lesson with not QTing a year and half ago, and now use a QT for 2 months (hyposalinity) on any new fish. Have done that twice now, with total success.

The good news, though, when I did have my ich outbreak, is that I did not lose any of my long time fish, only the new fish that I had added. What happened, is that the new fish showed the ick symptoms, and some of the long time residents got it too. The tank went through a couple 4 or 5 day iterations, where it seemed the ick would subside, then come back. The new fish got it real bad just with the 2nd iteration, and died. But the long time residents were still eating well, and didn't seem to have it as bad. They got better, and subsequent iterations showed fewer symptoms until the ick finally disappeared altogether (took about a month or so).

My theory is that the long time residents had an immune response and were better able to fight off the subsequent iterations of the disease. And when the new fish died, the disease didn't have easy to affect hosts to keep the cycle going.

I know the tank is ick free now, because I have since added new fish several times after quarantining them, with no recurrence of the disease. I should mention that I had a wait time of over 6 months before adding new fish to the display tank after my initial episode.

[dc4]

not sure I have 180g of containers, but good idea.

If your tank is 180g, it would be a lot less in saltwater if you count for the rock and coral volume. Hope everything works out...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

[Aquattro]

If your tank is 180g, it would be a lot less in saltwater if you count for the rock and coral volume. Hope everything works out...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

Ya, but with sump, it goes back up to 180. But, I might have enough. My frag tank is 90 and I have 90 sump outside. Hopefully it holds water :)

[Aquattro]

So your best option at this point is probably to just feed them well, garlic, selcon, etc, and maybe try some reef safe remedies that others say have worked. And hope that your fishes' immune system kicks in and fights off the ick or velvet. Hopefully you have ick, not velvet.

no, this isn't ich. Feeding isn't going to do anything, the first one that I lost was eating like a pig 12 hours earlier, even eating bits of the fresh garlic. While I'm a proponent of that method with ich, this isn't the same.

[Reef Pilot]

no, this isn't ich. Feeding isn't going to do anything, the first one that I lost was eating like a pig 12 hours earlier, even eating bits of the fresh garlic. While I'm a proponent of that method with ich, this isn't the same.
OK, very sorry to hear that. I feel your pain. Wish you the best.

[Aquattro]

Well, it looks like I might have enough room to drain the tank and a fast pump to fill it. That's the plan.

I now need ideas on treatment tank setup. Using water from the main tank, so good for a few days. Not sure if I should skim with copper meds? Not sure I have a skimmer. No seeded rock to sacrifice, although copper binds with carbonates, so not a good plan anyway. I can buy salt and do water changes every 4 or 5 days. Will that work?

[Bblinks]

Damn Bradd, i am so sorry to hear that! I know exactly how you feel right now' just went through the same thing, hardest thing was watching my 7 years old yellow tang go and the 300 dollars Achilles. Funny i also added the last fish few month back and the only reason I think what made mv act up was stress which was brought on by WWIII between the tangs. Anyways it wiped out the whole tank except for my mystery and cleaner wrasse.

If you need containers to drain your tank, I have a 150 gallons rubber maid you can borrow if you wanna come over to the mainland or you can go get those 44 gallons tuff containers from hd. If you use them to only hold water and nothing else there is a good chance you can clean them up afterwards and return it. I have done it once out of desperation. 50 buck per 44 gallons container isn't exactly cheap. Do you have uv by chance. I would run that in the tank and a filter sock to kill off the rest of it in the tank. How many residents you got in your tank right now? I think you need to weight out the which is more important, the fish or the coral. I wouldnt risk losing any of your sps colonies if you only have a few fish in the tank as cruel as it sounds.

Anyways Bradd, I wish best of luck! If I can do anything for please do not hesitate to ask.

[Bblinks]

Well, it looks like I might have enough room to drain the tank and a fast pump to fill it. That's the plan.

I now need ideas on treatment tank setup. Using water from the main tank, so good for a few days. Not sure if I should skim with copper meds? Not sure I have a skimmer. No seeded rock to sacrifice, although copper binds with carbonates, so not a good plan anyway. I can buy salt and do water changes every 4 or 5 days. Will that work?

Call progressive and see if he's got any treatment tank setup? I know a few lfs in town that will quarantine and treat sick fish for me.

[George]

Sorry to hear about that Brad.
Life cycle of Marine velvet is very similar to marine ich where they can multiply by numbers with day goes by. So you may not see the symptom for days (or weeks) and then bam!
I would suggest giving the fish a freshwater dip after you go them out. And give them a formalin bath after that. After that, put them into a QT and treat any secondary infections.
I hate to be pessimistic but if you see sign of marine velvet, most of time it's too late. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Good luck.

[Aquattro]

Call progressive and see if he's got any treatment tank setup? I know a few lfs in town that will quarantine and treat sick fish for me.
They don't, the tanks in the back were shut down for maintenance. I should be ok here, just gotta figure out how to run the treatment tank without killing them.
Got enough storage I think, but I have a 125g sump under my stairs, if I have to, I'll figure out how to get it out of there.

[Aquattro]

Sorry to hear about that Brad.
Life cycle of Marine velvet is very similar to marine ich where they can multiply by numbers with day goes by. So you may not see the symptom for days (or weeks) and then bam!
I would suggest giving the fish a freshwater dip after you go them out. And give them a formalin bath after that. After that, put them into a QT and treat any secondary infections.
I hate to be pessimistic but if you see sign of marine velvet, most of time it's too late. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Good luck.

Ya, agreed. My queen and naso still look good, as do some of the smaller fish. If I get this done today, I should be able to save them.

[fishoholic]

From what I remember the velvet can be floating in the water (like ich) so I would use new SW.

What I did (major PITA but it worked) was set up a 110g QT tank with new SW and I did a 50% water change every other day so ammonia would not build up, and treated with cuppermine (sp?) for 2 weeks. During the copper treatment I bought 80 pounds of cured LR from a tank shut down and set up a 90ish gallon rubbermaid. Transferred all my fish (only 8 left out of 34) after treatment into the rubbermaid (did weekly w/c) and kept them there for 6 weeks. They were out of the display for 8 weeks total then I slowly added them back into the display after that. Ran only heaters and powerheads in QT and the rubbermaid.

I used PVC pipes for hiding spots in the QT and followed the instructions on the cuppermine bottle for treatment

[George]

From what I remember the velvet can be floating in the water (like ich) so I would use new SW.


That's correct. marine velvet just like marine ich has a free floating stage. Don't use old water.

[no_bs]

Ouch, sorry to hear. Hope all works out for you.

[kien]

Oh dear.. sorry to hear that Brad. Having gone through velvet myself, I feel for ya. As others have said, time is not on your side unfortunately.

[Aquattro]

Christy just showed up, so we're draining now. BRB.

[Aquattro]

Done. Missed 2 fish.

[The Grizz]

Glad you got some help Brad, kudos to Christy. Hope treatment goes well, keep us up to date.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aquattro]

Weird looking at a tank with no fish! The corals are starting to forgive me. Fish are settled in with meds, Borderjumper gave me a large aquaclear to use, so I've added a bunch of LR rubble in there. We'll see how the fish do.

[freezetyle]

whoa! if you need any extra equipment (tank) i have a biocube sitting empty, and a few rubber maids on hand. extra heater, you name it i can probably help you with it i'll send you a pm with my number.

[Skimmerking]

Brad i just read your thread so sorry man

[Snappy]

Brad I feel your pain. I am also going through velvet & cloudy eye in my tank. I added 2 fish that I bought on boxing day (haven't seen either of them since) and within a few days my fish started getting sick and in the past month I have lost at least 50 fish and counting.
My death list off the top of my head so far:
clowns x4
firefish
pencil wrasse
yellow coris wrasse
leopard wrasse x 2
6 line wrasse x 2
chromis x 12
asfer angel
majestic angel
powder blue tang
chevron tang
regal tang
royal gramma x 2
mandarins x 2
pipefish
damsel
bicolor blenny
naso tang
sailfin tang
pyramid butterflies x 2
+ a bunch more I can't think of right now. I had over 80 fish in my system and now I don't.
:twised:

[Aquattro]

Greg, that's really crappy to hear! I've only lost 2 and I hope that's it! I've got mine in a treatment tank with some kind of med my LFS guy recommended. Are you able to get fish out at all??

[Aquattro]

whoa! if you need any extra equipment (tank) i have a biocube sitting empty, and a few rubber maids on hand. extra heater, you name it i can probably help you with it i'll send you a pm with my number.

Thanks Jon. Japarto at Safari loaned me about 160g worth of barrels, which made the task much easier. We were able to drain the tank in about 7 minutes, catch most of the fish, extract the hippo from the rock work, and only lost a few corals to crashes (don't have 3 pound "frags" mounted on magnets!).
Setting up the fish trap now to see if I can get the remaining mandarin and orange spot goby.

[Coralgurl]

This is horrible! I hope your fish pull through!! Wow, I can't imagine how you must be feeling! Hang in there!

[daniella3d]

yeah and it is velvet, ich and brook safe as well.

Try herbtana. It's reef safe

Very sad to hear that. Best option and only option that is half decent is to catch all the fish and treat fast. Problem is..what is it? if it is velvet then Cupramine is the way to go, if it is brook then formaline is the way to go. I think Paraguard also work as I have seen some clownfish being successfully curer from brook with Paraguard. Not sure how effective Paraguard is for velvet.

[Coralgurl]

Greg, this is truly tragic! Your fish were awesome, what a loss as I know you've had some of them a long time.

Brad I feel your pain. I am also going through velvet & cloudy eye in my tank. I added 2 fish that I bought on boxing day (haven't seen either of them since) and within a few days my fish started getting sick and in the past month I have lost at least 50 fish and counting.
My death list off the top of my head so far:
clowns x4
firefish
pencil wrasse
yellow coris wrasse
leopard wrasse x 2
6 line wrasse x 2
chromis x 12
asfer angel
majestic angel
powder blue tang
chevron tang
regal tang
royal gramma x 2
mandarins x 2
pipefish
damsel
bicolor blenny
naso tang
sailfin tang
pyramid butterflies x 2
+ a bunch more I can't think of right now. I had over 80 fish in my system and now I don't.
:twised:

[vaporize]

yeah and it is velvet, ich and brook safe as well.



Very sad to hear that. Best option and only option that is half decent is to catch all the fish and treat fast. Problem is..what is it? if it is velvet then Cupramine is the way to go, if it is brook then formaline is the way to go. I think Paraguard also work as I have seen some clownfish being successfully curer from brook with Paraguard. Not sure how effective Paraguard is for velvet.

Paraguard is like formalin, it can burn off some velvet on the skin but will not cure it. Becareful with paraguard though, it can be overdose without knowing and it cannot be tested. Usually by the time you see velvet on the fish's body, it's already terminal stage and very hard to cure (even with cupramine).

[daniella3d]

I have been going pretty generous with Paraguard and never had a problem with it. Once I dosed one full cap over by mistake in a 20 gallons (3 caps instead of 2) without any bad effect. Paraguard totaly decompose in the water after 24 hours unlike copper or cupramine which remain active and in the water forever.

I never had to treat velvet but I am treating 2 clownfish now with Paraguard for Brooklynella. They have been in quarantine for a month with 3 weeks of Paraguard and I will keep the treatment another week or so. The fish stopped scratching after a few days in Paraguard. I started treatment as soon as I saw the clownfish scratching on everything. Glad they were in quarantine so treatment was quick and easy.

Now that I read you guys having parasites show up after months..I will keep the clown in quarantine in observation at least another 4 weeks after treatment. I really don't want this stuff in my main tank so if it takes 4 months so be it.



Paraguard is like formalin, it can burn off some velvet on the skin but will not cure it. Becareful with paraguard though, it can be overdose without knowing and it cannot be tested. Usually by the time you see velvet on the fish's body, it's already terminal stage and very hard to cure (even with cupramine).

[smokinreefer]

sorry to read about this brad.
glad you got some help dealing with this over there.
crap like this is always easier to get through with helping hands.
hope things work out!

[Delphinus]

Yikes, this is a sad thing to read. Good luck with everything..

[christyf5]

Wow Greg that is brutal. Velvet scares the living beejezus out of me!

Brad have you seen the goby or mandarin since I left? Hows everyone doing in QT? What was the name of the drug you got? I didn't see anything like it at BlueWorld when I was there, thought I'd pick some up in case my fish came in this week.

[Aquattro]

Brad have you seen the goby or mandarin since I left? Hows everyone doing in QT? What was the name of the drug you got? I didn't see anything like it at BlueWorld when I was there, thought I'd pick some up in case my fish came in this week.

Ya, both of them are having a great ol time, whole tank to themselves. Just rigging the trap now.
I'm using something called uni marin. Not sure what's in it.

Thanks again, sure appreciate the help!

[Coleus]

Sorry to hear this happens. I hope everyone will recover well.

[christyf5]

Ya, both of them are having a great ol time, whole tank to themselves. Just rigging the trap now.
I'm using something called uni marin. Not sure what's in it.

Thanks again, sure appreciate the help!

Hey anytime, sorry for railroading you into it before the swap. When you arrived with all those water barrels I got a little gung ho :razz:

[Borderjumper]

Ya, both of them are having a great ol time, whole tank to themselves. Just rigging the trap now.
I'm using something called uni marin. Not sure what's in it.

Thanks again, sure appreciate the help!


Aquarium Munster UniMarin 30 ml

Unimarin is a universal treatment against the numerous infections of marine ornamental fish like protozoa (e. g. Cryptobia, Cryptocarion), bacteria (e. g. Flexibacter) and fungus (e. g. Saprolegnia). Particularly where a specific diagnosis is not certain, unimarin has been proven to be reliably effective against most infections exhibiting the following symptoms: Whitish to yellowish mucous-like coatings, cotton-wool like tufts, sores, wounds, inflammations, blood spots, skin and scale loss, ruffled scales, fin rot, mucous menmrane discoloration, white mouth, careening movements, protruding eyes (exophthalmus), swollen abdomen.

Method of advimistration:

for each 100/ of aquarium water administer

Day 1: 30 drops of Uni Marin

Day 2: 15 drops of Uni Marin

Day 3: 30 drops of Uni Marin

Caution: Invertebrated do not tolerate Uni Marin. Corals and anemones must be excluded fro treatment.



Wonder what's in it?

[christyf5]

ah ok, they had something by the same brand at BW called coral marin or coral pro marin or something. Guess they were out of the other stuff. I'll have to have a look for it here. Thanks for posting that Shelley :)

[Aquattro]

Wonder what's in it?

guessing at least malachite green, since the water is green :)

[Borderjumper]

I know it's too soon, but do they seem stable? It still blows me out you lost those two so fast! Especially since they were both eating.. I've always figured if they are eating they will be ok:sad:

[Aquattro]

So far they seem fine, chomping away at nori, eating pellets. The hippo is still a bit ****ed at getting dragged out with tongs, and still has some spots on her, but the rest seem fine.
I can't fit the trap I have in the tank so now need to come up with a new plan for the 2 remaining fish....anyone got a really small fish trap?? :)

[fishoholic]

Ya, both of them are having a great ol time, whole tank to themselves. Just rigging the trap now.
I'm using something called uni marin. Not sure what's in it.

Thanks again, sure appreciate the help!

FYI the only thing that treats velvet is a copper treatment or formalin. Not sure what uni marin is, but if it doesn't have copper or formalin in it, it's doubtful it will work.

[Borderjumper]

So far they seem fine, chomping away at nori, eating pellets. The hippo is still a bit ****ed at getting dragged out with tongs, and still has some spots on her, but the rest seem fine.
I can't fit the trap I have in the tank so now need to come up with a new plan for the 2 remaining fish....anyone got a really small fish trap?? :)
Like I said I have an ugly homemade one, but I think the gaps between the plexy (made it out of scraps) are too big for the two fish you need to catch. I will text you a picture and let you decide

[Aquattro]

FYI the only thing that treats velvet is a copper treatment or formalin. Not sure what uni marin is, but if it doesn't have copper or formalin in it, it's doubtful it will work.

That quinine stuff works as well. The problem with copper is that it harms fish kidneys, so not really something I want to use. My LFS guy tells me this stuff works, so I'm giving it a shot.


ETA: Sorry, the stuff is Chloroquine diphosphate that I'm referring to

[christyf5]

I wonder if any of the stores have a "pest trap" its basically a smaller version of the fish trap. Wish I had thought to bring mine down today :neutral:

[christyf5]

FYI the only thing that treats velvet is a copper treatment or formalin. Not sure what uni marin is, but if it doesn't have copper or formalin in it, it's doubtful it will work.

malachite green works the same way as formalin only its way more carcinogenic. I'm surprised you can even get it still, they won't let us use it on our experimental fish at work, its great for ectoparasites and skin infections.

[TimT]

Hey Brad,

Sorry to hear about the loss of your fish buddies. Hope the survivors pull through. You may want to try a freshwater bath as it will clear them of any parasites and make their time in the QT shorter. I would also recommend a UV on the tank to help clear any free swimming MV.

Copper is poisonous. You just kill the parasites faster than the fish as they are smaller. :)

If you are going to let the tank be fallow for 6 weeks then I would recommend adding Ammonium Chloride to keep the bio filter going. Otherwise you will get an ammonia spike when you put the fish back in and the acros will hate that.

Cheers,
Tim

[Borderjumper]

How about taking one of those plastic coral cups with the lid on.. Cut a round hole half way up for the fish to find its way in.. Hopefully they forget how to get out.. Kinda like a wasp trap?


Or one of those clear round sand cleaner tubes.. Plug one end and fill it with mysis and be ready to scoop?

I caught a pesky wrass once by putting a 6" tall piece of PVC Vertically in my tank.. He couldn't stand it and went in to investigate :)

[vaporize]

ETA: Sorry, the stuff is Chloroquine diphosphate that I'm referring to

Where can you buy Chloroquine diphosphate? (not quinine sulfate)

[Aquattro]

How about taking one of those plastic coral cups with the lid on.. Cut a round hole half way up for the fish to find its way in.. Hopefully they forget how to get out.. Kinda like a wasp trap?


Or one of those clear round sand cleaner tubes.. Plug one end and fill it with mysis and be ready to scoop?

I caught a pesky wrass once by putting a 6" tall piece of PVC Vertically in my tank.. He couldn't stand it and went in to investigate :)
Ya, I'll have to figure something out, I only have about 4 inches of room to put anything in the tank. :)

[Aquattro]

Where can you buy Chloroquine diphosphate? (not quinine sulfate)

no idea, I just read that this stuff works as well...

[Aquattro]

If you are going to let the tank be fallow for 6 weeks then I would recommend adding Ammonium Chloride to keep the bio filter going. Otherwise you will get an ammonia spike when you put the fish back in and the acros will hate that.

Cheers,
Tim

Tim, so you think the remaining critters(shrimp, crabs, etc) would be enough?

[daniella3d]

I hope that med will work.

Types and quantities of active substances:1 ml of unimarin contains:
4.00 mg of ethacridine lactate
2.75 mg of tetramethylthionine chloride
2.00 mg of acriflavin chloride
0.26 mg of 4-(4'-dimethylaminophenylaza-benzol-1-sulfonic acid) sodium salt

Does anyone know if acriflavin is effective against velvet?

First one is an antiseptic, Second is simply methylen blue, third is a desinfectant and not sure what is the last one.

I thought only copper worked for velvet?



I'm using something called uni marin. Not sure what's in it.

Thanks again, sure appreciate the help!

[Aquattro]

I hope that med will work.

Does anyone know if acriflavin is effective against velvet?

First one is an antiseptic, Second is simply methylen blue, third is a desinfectant and not sure what is the last one.

I thought only copper worked for velvet?

I've got my info from here

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/

which claims that acriflavin does potentially work, although maybe not as effective as copper...

I might try to find some Marex though....

[fishoholic]

I've got my info from here

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/

which claims that acriflavin does potentially work, although maybe not as effective as copper...

I might try to find some Marex though....

Hopefully it works, I used Cupramine by seachem. To bad your not closer as I still have an almost full bottle I could of gave you. It's buffered active copper so as far as I'm aware it's supposed to be not as hard on the fish as other copper treatments. The bottle says "Less toxic, superior to, and safer then copper chlorides, sulfates, citrates and chelates"

[fishoholic]

malachite green works the same way as formalin only its way more carcinogenic. I'm surprised you can even get it still, they won't let us use it on our experimental fish at work, its great for ectoparasites and skin infections.

Good to know.

[Borderjumper]

How's it going today Brad?

[Aquattro]

How's it going today Brad?

when I left this morning, I had just turned the lights on. The queen now has some white spots, which still, to me, look like ich.
The tank was a bit cloudy, so I think a water change is in order when I get home. I'll have a better idea then on what the day looks like :)

[KPG007]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Brad. I went through a similar battle a few years back. It was only a 33g tank, but I lost 4 out of 6 fish, as I didn't know what it was until they started dropping.


Kelly

[Aquattro]

Thanks Kelly. The problem with this stuff is I still am not entirely sure what it is. Velvet is typically much smaller than ich, and shouldn't be visible as dots, but I have dots. Ich doesn't typically kill in three days and turn the fish stringy. Although I'm not an expert on ich, I've rarely had it, and it's always gone away on it's own.
So I'm treating for something I haven't identified. Hopefully I'm doing the right thing, and hopefully an unfiltered treatment tank doesn't cause more stress and kill them with the cure.

[lngrhaul]

How about taking one of those plastic coral cups with the lid on.. Cut a round hole half way up for the fish to find its way in.. Hopefully they forget how to get out.. Kinda like a wasp trap?


Or one of those clear round sand cleaner tubes.. Plug one end and fill it with mysis and be ready to scoop?

I caught a pesky wrass once by putting a 6" tall piece of PVC Vertically in my tank.. He couldn't stand it and went in to investigate :)

why not make a small(ish) wasp trap out of a 500ml pop bottle. Cut the top off and invert it into the bottom and zap strap it together. bait and wait. you could cut the bottom down to a smaller size if you don't have much room.

Make sure to put a call out if you need more equipment or rock or ...... so we can help if we can. Gotta work together when something like this happens.

[dc4]

Thanks Kelly. The problem with this stuff is I still am not entirely sure what it is. Velvet is typically much smaller than ich, and shouldn't be visible as dots, but I have dots. Ich doesn't typically kill in three days and turn the fish stringy. Although I'm not an expert on ich, I've rarely had it, and it's always gone away on it's own.
So I'm treating for something I haven't identified. Hopefully I'm doing the right thing, and hopefully an unfiltered treatment tank doesn't cause more stress and kill them with the cure.

Is it possible that its both ick and velvet, might be the velvet stressing the fish and making ick appear?

[MKLKT]

I think I'm suffering something similar in my tank, I haven't purchased a new fish in about a year though. The last thing I added was a few SPS colonies from J&L on boxing day, and prior to that I haven't had anything new in there since about October. I lost my favourite fish so far and 2 others are showing similar signs to what you're describing. Why couldn't it be the ugly fish I don't care about? :(

[Aquattro]

Is it possible that its both ick and velvet, might be the velvet stressing the fish and making ick appear?

Yes, I suspect that's possible, and even likely.

[Aquattro]

I think I'm suffering something similar in my tank, I haven't purchased a new fish in about a year though. The last thing I added was a few SPS colonies from J&L on boxing day, and prior to that I haven't had anything new in there since about October. I lost my favourite fish so far and 2 others are showing similar signs to what you're describing. Why couldn't it be the ugly fish I don't care about? :(

If it's velvet, it's going to be all the fish, pretty or ugly. Hopefully I've caught mine in time, now I just need to keep them alive in the treatment tank.

[MKLKT]

If it's velvet, it's going to be all the fish, pretty or ugly. Hopefully I've caught mine in time, now I just need to keep them alive in the treatment tank.

It's annoying as I don't really have anything I can pinpoint as a carrier or cause. I don't live in the same house as where my tank is located so I won't be able to monitor daily nor have a quarantine large enough for all my fish. I was going to attempt Metronidazole bound to the fish food but we'll see how that goes. All I can say is that I know what you're going through right now.

[daniella3d]

could it be brooklynella? it's a fast killer too, but formaline or paraguard cure it in few days.

Take a look on google image for brooklynella and see if it match.

this is a clownfish with brook:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/images/Brooklynellosis/brook_01.jpg


acriflavine is said to cure brook in about 2 weeks. So depending what it is, your med might just work.



If it's velvet, it's going to be all the fish, pretty or ugly. Hopefully I've caught mine in time, now I just need to keep them alive in the treatment tank.

[Aquattro]

could it be brooklynella? it's a fast killer too, but formaline or paraguard cure it in few days.

Take a look on google image for brooklynella and see if it match.

this is a clownfish with brook:

acriflavine is said to cure brook in about 2 weeks. So depending what it is, your med might just work.

I looked at this and yes, it almost looks the same. I figured though, that mostly it was a clownfish thing, and my clown is one of the happier fish today :)
But yes, it looks more like that than it does pics of velvet I've seen.

[Rice Reef]

could it be brooklynella? it's a fast killer too, but formaline or paraguard cure it in few days.

Take a look on google image for brooklynella and see if it match.

this is a clownfish with brook:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_1/images/Brooklynellosis/brook_01.jpg


acriflavine is said to cure brook in about 2 weeks. So depending what it is, your med might just work.

Brad, hang in there... If u need anything don't hesitate to ask . Will certainly help out. Have a spare 90 gallon, heaters and a few powerheads. If it is brooklynella cure it quickly... Brook wiped out all but my damsels five yrs ago. I'm still in shock after hearing you talking about it on Sunday. Your tank is a true piece of living art...

[Aquattro]

Thanks Wayne, I think I've got it covered. The big task is keeping water quality in the treatment tank. If you've got a mature canister filter jusy lying around.....:razz:

[Rice Reef]

Thanks Wayne, I think I've got it covered. The big task is keeping water quality in the treatment tank. If you've got a mature canister filter jusy lying around.....:razz:

Sorry, Brad. I don't have one.:sad:

[Aquattro]

Sorry, Brad. I don't have one.:sad:

Ya, that's the hard to find part. Shelley lent me an aquaclear that I added some rock rubble, and I added another 5 pounds of LR, but it's not enough. making 50g right now and staying up late for a water change. Which sucks, since I have to get up at 5am!! :razz:

[Borderjumper]

Ya, that's the hard to find part. Shelley lent me an aquaclear that I added some rock rubble, and I added another 5 pounds of LR, but it's not enough. making 50g right now and staying up late for a water change. Which sucks, since I have to get up at 5am!! :razz:

I've got one more of those big aqua clears if you need it just ask.

[Aquattro]

I've got one more of those big aqua clears if you need it just ask.

Shelley, this one is big enough, I'm just short on bacteria :) I've got a bunch of rubble under one of the foam blocks, but the water is a bit cloudy tonight and the fish are breathing a bit fast for my liking. I added some prime to the tank, so that should help with the NH3 a bit. I hope. New water in progress, although I should probably let it mix until morning.

[Borderjumper]

What about if you filled an old nylon( I know you have a few!) with live sand, either from E's tank or I could scoop you some and filled the filter up with that?

[Aquattro]

What about if you filled an old nylon( I know you have a few!) with live sand, either from E's tank or I could scoop you some and filled the filter up with that?

That may work. I took all the rock from her sump already :)

[Borderjumper]

Wonder how long it would take to seed a new canister filter? You may want to get one and start it in E's tank or bring one over here and I can set it up and stir my sump up really well.. Lots of good gunk hiding in there. I'm thinking your going to be needing something for a month or 2 at least to leave your display fallow.

[Aquattro]

Wonder how long it would take to seed a new canister filter? You may want to get one and start it in E's tank or bring one over here and I can set it up and stir my sump up really well.. Lots of good gunk hiding in there. I'm thinking your going to be needing something for a month or 2 at least to leave your display fallow.

I think it takes about 3 weeks. I'll scoop some sand, and I bought a bucket of IO and prime, so I can do lots of water changes for a couple of weeks

[fishoholic]

the fish are breathing a bit fast for my liking.

I added a bunch of bubbliers to my qt tank, it seemed to help, also FW dips really helped the fish breathe better. Fairly certain I would of lost my king angel if I hadn't done a FW dip on him.

[Aquattro]

Laurie, the fish look ok, I think it's more the O2 levels are a bit low. I'll do a 80% water change today and see how they look. Not sure it's velvet still, and so far the 2 remaining fish in the display look fine. No idea how I'm going to catch them :(

[muck]

Damn Brad... this really sux.
Hope you can keep this under control now.

Mad props to Christy for giving you a hand...

[howdy20012002]

if anyone has chaeto, I think that would help.
I am sure that there would be bacteria hanging out on that.
I have used that a few times to help start a tank.
sorry to hear of your problems.
good luck
Neal

[Aquattro]

if anyone has chaeto, I think that would help.
I am sure that there would be bacteria hanging out on that.
I have used that a few times to help start a tank.
sorry to hear of your problems.
good luck
Neal

Good idea Neal. I've got a bunch in another tank. I'll add that today.

[lngrhaul]

Shelley, this one is big enough, I'm just short on bacteria :) I've got a bunch of rubble under one of the foam blocks, but the water is a bit cloudy tonight and the fish are breathing a bit fast for my liking. I added some prime to the tank, so that should help with the NH3 a bit. I hope. New water in progress, although I should probably let it mix until morning.

Not sure what you are looking for, but I've got some rock that I took out of my tank because it was all covered with hydroids. It is cooking in a bucket and there is LOTS of crap on these!

I could trade you for some other rock as I guess the treatment tank is going to nuke the rock from ever being used in a tank again due to the copper - correct?

[Aquattro]

Not sure what you are looking for, but I've got some rock that I took out of my tank because it was all covered with hydroids. It is cooking in a bucket and there is LOTS of crap on these!

I could trade you for some other rock as I guess the treatment tank is going to nuke the rock from ever being used in a tank again due to the copper - correct?
Not using copper, but I'm not sure that what I'm using won't nuke the rock also. I don't have any spare to trade, but thanks. I can probably get a whack of rubble at Safari, he's got tons in the sumps.

[reefgirl189]

Just read your thread..

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. :sad: Hope everything works out okay for you!

[MMAX]

It's a brutal thing to go through. It hit me just over a year ago, lost 3 fish out of the 8 in my tank. Makes me scared to add any new fish now since I don't have a quarantine tank. Hope you and your fish pull through.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Hope your remaining livestock pull through my friend.:hurt:

[Aquattro]

Just did a big water change at lunch, and all the fish seem fine. Even the 2 still in the display are fine. Not sure what's going on.

[christyf5]

Hopefully your quick actions with getting them out and onto meds have stopped whatever was potentially going to happen? Who knows :noidea:

[MKLKT]

Just did a big water change at lunch, and all the fish seem fine. Even the 2 still in the display are fine. Not sure what's going on.

Good to hear.

I sadly lost one more fish, and have started my medication attempt on the remaining ones. The biggest problem is that none of them really have similar symptoms, all the other animals in the tank are fine though.

Lost my snowflake blenny who didn't have any visible symptoms and lost my lemonpeel angel which had an abrasion on one side of its body. Foxface has dots but is otherwise acting normal and one domino damsel has lost most of its colour but is behaving mostly normal. The rest seem to be fine but it doesn't look like anything that would have been prevented by quarantine or other means.

[Aquattro]

Hopefully your quick actions with getting them out and onto meds have stopped whatever was potentially going to happen? Who knows :noidea:

Ya, but now I'm not sure what to treat for, how long to leave the tank empty, etc. The fish really really want to go home!!

[Aquattro]

but it doesn't look like anything that would have been prevented by quarantine or other means.

I'm in the same position. Even if I had quarantined, I would have put the fish in the main tank after a month. He didn't get sick until 5 or 6 weeks, so this still would have happened.

[Borderjumper]

I'm in the same position. Even if I had quarantined, I would have put the fish in the main tank after a month. He didn't get sick until 5 or 6 weeks, so this still would have happened.
Exactly! And I'm sure the fish was at PR for a week or more being watched.. O add that to the time frame..

I don't know, this really freaks me out, I've never quarentined and have lost a fish here and ther and just chalked it up to the way it is.

I find it so odd that the two fish left in the tank are ok..

[reefwars]

I'm in the same position. Even if I had quarantined, I would have put the fish in the main tank after a month. He didn't get sick until 5 or 6 weeks, so this still would have happened.



yup hard to say what it is if theres no real id who knows if qt would have seen any results, i think your doing the right thing by treating anyways and being cautious:) when adding your fish back im sure you know but add them 1 every few days or a week so as not to over work your bacteria:)

glad to hear things never got any worse man:)cheers:):)

[Aquattro]

when adding your fish back im sure you know but add them 1 every few days or a week so as not to over work your bacteria:)


you've never met me obviously :) I'm sure they'll ll just go back at once...

[reefwars]

you've never met me obviously :) I'm sure they'll ll just go back at once...



sounds like a familiar style lol :P

[George]

I'm in the same position. Even if I had quarantined, I would have put the fish in the main tank after a month. He didn't get sick until 5 or 6 weeks, so this still would have happened.

You can prevent it by doing proper quarantine. Many people quarantine their fish for 2+ months. During this period, many people also do prophylactic treatment. One of my favorite is hypo for 4+ weeks, prazi-pro for a couple weeks, and then a couple weeks of observation.
Fish can live for years. I don't know why we can't wait a couple months before we put them in DT.

[Aquattro]

You can prevent it by doing proper quarantine. Many people quarantine their fish for 2+ months. During this period, many people also do prophylactic treatment. One of my favorite is hypo for 4+ weeks, prazi-pro for a couple weeks, and then a couple weeks of observation.
Fish can live for years. I don't know why we can't wait a couple months before we put them in DT.

Ya, 2 months of quarantine means yet another tank in the kitchen, which reduces the likelihood of me living many years...

Fish can live for years, and I've had some 10yrs + without quarantine. I "quarantine" anything new, but anything new will be while I have the current treatment tank up. After that, nothing new goes in.

[Reef Pilot]

I now always quarantine for 2 - 3 months. My last 2 times, lasted 3 months in total each. It takes that long just to go through the hypo salinity routine (which I now do whether or not the fish looks sick). Plus that time is well spent getting your new fish feeding well, and being strong before having to face their new tank mates in the display tank.

I have a QT ready to go all the time now, with a canister filter that is fully cycled. I change water using my used display tank water, so no extra salt costs.

It can also be connected directly to my DT and used as a refugium. At the moment, actually, I am using it to cure/cook some new rock. So always handy to have a spare tank ready to go when you need it.

I learned my lesson a year and half ago, and don't want to have to go through that again. I can't afford to risk my display tank, and have to tear it apart to catch fish that are sick.

[daniella3d]

That's not usual and surely not any excuse for not doing a proper quarantine. Usually it is quite obvious if there is a disease after 3 to 4 weeks. Of course to be safer is to leave the fish for 6 to 8 weeks, but if there is a disease it is a lot more common to come out after a week to 3 weeks.

I'm in the same position. Even if I had quarantined, I would have put the fish in the main tank after a month. He didn't get sick until 5 or 6 weeks, so this still would have happened.

[Duker]

If you've got a mature canister filter jusy lying around.....:razz:

Hey Brad i have a FX4 here, it's since cleaned out and has been in the closet for 3 years, maybe with established ruble you mentioned earlier. Either way your welcome to it.
Cheers Ronnie

[Aquattro]

Hey Brad i have a FX4 here, it's since cleaned out and has been in the closet for 3 years, maybe with established ruble you mentioned earlier. Either way your welcome to it.
Cheers Ronnie


Thanks Ronnie. The filter from Shelley is enough, I just don't have enough rubble. I've added some dry rock, so in time it should come around...
All fish look great, the 2 stuck in the tank to face their doom are fine, so not sure what the real cause is...

[MKLKT]

That's not usual and surely not any excuse for not doing a proper quarantine. Usually it is quite obvious if there is a disease after 3 to 4 weeks. Of course to be safer is to leave the fish for 6 to 8 weeks, but if there is a disease it is a lot more common to come out after a week to 3 weeks.

Unfortunately that didn't apply to me, haven't had a new fish in about a year. After losing the first two and starting to feed metro/focus/garlic combo it's been stable, going to run the full course and hopefully that's the extent of it.

[edit] Checked on the tank today, no new deaths and the damsel has probably 80% colour back after being almost white. Foxface seems less bothered and the spots are easing up. I'm cautiously optimistic. The skimmer went nuts though, haha.

[daniella3d]

That's probably because you had ick in your tank and never treated it and it was just in a state of low infection so not visible, so when the fish are stressed it all come out, even if it takes a year.

Once you got ick in your tank and if you don't treat for it, it won't go away on its own and will eventually return, as you noticed.

Obviously parasites don't come out of nowhere, but they can also come on corals and frags..this is why I desinfect all my corals.

Unfortunately that didn't apply to me, haven't had a new fish in about a year. After losing the first two and starting to feed metro/focus/garlic combo it's been stable, going to run the full course and hopefully that's the extent of it.

[edit] Checked on the tank today, no new deaths and the damsel has probably 80% colour back after being almost white. Foxface seems less bothered and the spots are easing up. I'm cautiously optimistic. The skimmer went nuts though, haha.

[lastlight]

Once you got ick in your tank and if you don't treat for it, it won't go away on its own and will eventually return, as you noticed.

Apparently a study showed that if no fish are added for 11 months the ich goes thru enough cycles that it diminishes and dies out so this isn't entirely true.

[daniella3d]

Yes I have heard about this, that after 10 generations it just exhaust itself. Dunno if it is true, but one thing is for sure, if that person got ich without introducing anything new for that long, then ick can surely survive that long as it does not pop out of thin air.

Maybe also the fish develop such strong resistance to the parasite that after a year or so it cannot survive. Not sure what it is. I know some people have ich in their tank and are seing cycle of it coming back even after a very long time.


Apparently a study showed that if no fish are added for 11 months the ich goes thru enough cycles that it diminishes and dies out so this isn't entirely true.

[muck]

Apparently a study showed that if no fish are added for 11 months the ich goes thru enough cycles that it diminishes and dies out so this isn't entirely true.
Got a link to an article on this study Brett? I'd be interested to read it..

[Reef Pilot]

It's mentioned in this article.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

[lastlight]

Yeah that's the one.

[MKLKT]

That's assuming it's actually even 'ich'. Unless you take a sample it's guesswork at best.

[Aquattro]

As I mentioned in my other thread, I lost the queen angel last night. This morning the hippo, xmas wrasse and mandarin are gone. Naso won't likely make it by the time I get the meds needed. The clown looks like it's next. I haven't seen the leopard wrasse, but it looked reasonable last night. A yellow tang seems to be holding up.
I still have a couple of fish in the display, not sure what to do about them, although they seem unaffected.

Lessons learned:

Do not buy impulse fish. I didn't even want the one that caused this, it was the wrong fish.
You cannot successfully setup a new treatment tank to deal with this after the fact, unless you're willing and able to do a 100% water change every day for 4 or 4 weeks. I caused more harm with NH3 than the disease did.

I still cannot have a q tank setup full time for those occasions where you think you want a fish. I will be building a fish list once I can add back to the display, and buy all at the same time and treat in quarantine before adding to the main tank. Once that's done, no additional fish will be added. That's the theory anyway.

Have medication on hand BEFORE you run into this type of scenario. I'll be picking up chloroquine this morning.

Maintaining a spare filter hanging off the main tank isn't practical, as it would require effort to not build up NO3 in the tank.

I suspect that before this week is over, I'll have 2 chromis left....

[kien]

:cry:

sounds like you could use a few laps around the lake..

[christyf5]

What a terrible loss Brad, so sorry to hear this. I wish we had just left the fish as is, but hindsight is a great thing ain't it? How big is your QT tank? Do you think the number of fish/gallons contributed to it? Just a thought.

Where are you getting the chloroquinine? I'm wondering if I should be finding a source as well...

[Aquattro]

:cry:

sounds like you could use a few laps around the lake..

Ya, scheduled for later.

[Aquattro]

One of the yellow tangs gone....

[Delphinus]

What lousy news. I'm so sorry for your losses.

[vaporize]

Have medication on hand BEFORE you run into this type of scenario. I'll be picking up chloroquine this morning.

Maintaining a spare filter hanging off the main tank isn't practical, as it would require effort to not build up NO3 in the tank.



Where can you pick up chloroquine diphosphate? I've read that if it's terminal stage, it might not work fast enough (same as cupramine); you might want to carefully use copper salt directly (i.e. copper sulfate with proper test kit) - just make sure you don't use it in lower salinity tank

Do not use "hang-on" filter in the main tank to seed as most of those clog up and some have carbon. Use sponge filter in the sump to seed, you just wash it out everytime you change water.

[Aquattro]

Where can you pick up chloroquine diphosphate? I've read that if it's terminal stage, it might not work fast enough (same as cupramine); you might want to carefully use copper salt directly (i.e. copper sulfate with proper test kit) - just make sure you don't use it in lower salinity tank

Do not use "hang-on" filter in the main tank to seed as most of those clog up and some have carbon. Use sponge filter in the sump to seed, you just wash it out everytime you change water.

Chloroquine phosphate can be found at any drug store and works the same as diphosphate. My vet is examining a fish right now and will give me a script for it.
Copper is not an option in my mind, I think it does more harm to the fish long term.
The hang on is fine, it only has carbon if you add carbon :) But yes, a foam block carefully maintained could work.

[vaporize]

Chloroquine phosphate can be found at any drug store and works the same as diphosphate. My vet is examining a fish right now and will give me a script for it.
Copper is not an option in my mind, I think it does more harm to the fish long term.
The hang on is fine, it only has carbon if you add carbon :) But yes, a foam block carefully maintained could work.

Chloroquine phosphate is "off the counter" drug without prescription?

Well copper might have negative long term effect, but if the fish does not even live, what does it matter if it has long term because it has no term if it dies ;-D

I wonder if chloroquine phosphate actually can cure brooklynella too - your vet know?

[Aquattro]

Chloroquine phosphate is "off the counter" drug without prescription?

Well copper might have negative long term effect, but if the fish does not even live, what does it matter if it has long term because it has no term if it dies ;-D

I wonder if chloroquine phosphate actually can cure brooklynella too - your vet know?

No, it's a prescription drug, which is why the vet is involved. And yes, it treats brooklynella as well.
I think copper, at this point, would simply kill the fish. And wreck the tank. And all the rock in it. This is my future frag tank, and I don't want to have to dismantle it to clean it.
From what I've read, the CP works really well and quickly. I should have it shortly.

[vaporize]

No, it's a prescription drug, which is why the vet is involved. And yes, it treats brooklynella as well.
I think copper, at this point, would simply kill the fish. And wreck the tank. And all the rock in it. This is my future frag tank, and I don't want to have to dismantle it to clean it.
From what I've read, the CP works really well and quickly. I should have it shortly.

Thanks, please update us when you apply it :)

Are you getting the actual chemical or the human version of the drug (I think it's Aralen) ?

(don't know that you are going to apply to a reef tank - hopefully no negative effects)

[Aquattro]

Thanks, please update us when you apply it :)

Are you getting the actual chemical or the human version of the drug (I think it's Aralen) ?

(don't know that you are going to apply to a reef tank - hopefully no negative effects)

I'm getting the tabs (Arelen) but have a compounding pharmacy trying to source the diphosphate salt. The tabs are 155mg active ingredient.

And no, not in the display tank, it's highly toxic to algae, meaning it would kill all the corals. Inverts seem to do fine (shrimps/clams, etc).

[howdy20012002]

it is amazing how these scaled covered things start to have meaning in one's life.
you aren't just losing a few fish, it is like you are losing a few friends.
sorry to hear it is going so badly.

[Aquattro]

I think half the bad was caused by the treatment tank having no mature filter :)

[Veng68]

this place has it http://www.fishchemical.com/Products-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE-1-KILO-22937.Item.html

But I think you have to have a business to order it in for you and not to sure if you can get it shipped to Canada (although it says they ship to 14 countries).

I won't feel so go shipping it to my friend in the States and trying to bring a 1 kilo bag of white power across the border. ;)

Cheers,
Vic

[Aquattro]

Thanks Vic, I'll look into that.

[Coralgurl]

I think half the bad was caused by the treatment tank having no mature filter :)

So sorry for your losses. I did the same thing a few months ago, set up an emerg qt, moved all my fish and treated with copper. No cycle, no cycled filter. Within hours I lost my clowns and slowly lost all but my chromis and cardinal, in total 6 fish. After 6 weeks the chromis developed lympho, at that point I decided enough. I couldn't get the ammonia to 0 even though I was changing the water everyday, cleaning the filters, vacuuming uneaten food and poop. I moved the fish back to the dt, the chromis dies within a week, still have the cardinal. I've only dealt with ich, nothing as serious as what you are dealing with, but I said I'd never qt another fish as it seemed what I was doing ended up being just cruel. I'll be switching tanks soon and hoping to keep my smaller tank running as a qt but have not yet decided.

I don't have any advise to offer you, I hope this all gets sorted out and you don't lose everything.

[Aquattro]

Like I mentioned, I'll keep this treatment tank going for a while, and buy all the future fish at once and qt/treat accordingly. Once they go in, no new fish.
My naso is white, on the bottom of the tank, almost lifeless. I just added the chloroquine and pumped water across the naso's gills. Some color has returned and she's breathing faster. Here's hoping she pulls through...

[Aquattro]

Naso is gone :(

[Aquattro]

Also, good idea #2 that isn't very good. Don't do water changes from one tank into another. SPS water got added to my daughter's tank, which I'm now dismantling to catch the infected fish....sigh

[Borderjumper]

Naso is gone :(
Aww Cowgirl...:sad:

[Rice Reef]

Brad, really sorry to hear that you are experiencing more losses. I still have a 90 gallon sitting in my garage if you need another tank. :sad:

[Aquattro]

Aww Cowgirl...:sad:

I spent an hour trying to move water through her gills, just kills me....

[Aquattro]

Brad, really sorry to hear that you are experiencing more losses. I still have a 90 gallon sitting in my garage if you need another tank. :sad:

Thanks Wayne. I've got lots of tanks. First order is get the ones in the T tank fixed. Second, I still have 2 fish in the 180, no idea how to get them.

[Borderjumper]

I spent an hour trying to move water through her gills, just kills me....
I know you did Brad.. First tears ive actually ever shed for a fish, and that's from here! I can only imagine your pain having to witness this!

[daniella3d]

Did your vet id the culprit?

Sorry to hear about your loss. :(

Did adding Prime not help at all for ammonia?

I have my new fish in quarantine for 5 weeks and half now and due to this sad story I am going to keep them in quarantine another 2 weeks, just to be safe.


My vet is examining a fish right now and will give me a script for it.

[Aquattro]

Did your vet id the culprit?

Sorry to hear about your loss. :(

Did adding Prime not help at all for ammonia?

I have my new fish in quarantine for 5 weeks and half now and due to this sad story I am going to keep them in quarantine another 2 weeks, just to be safe.

Yes, the vet said it was velvet, but I'm not sure what he's basing that on, probably photos under the scope.
No, prime did nothing for NH3 at all. The only thing that really works is a fully mature filter; once I got one, NH3 is now 0 (after a large water change).

I'll be building my fish list over the next couple of months, and I will buy them all at once, Q and treat, then into the tank.

[lngrhaul]

so sorry that you were not able to save them Brad. Certainly you did everything that you could possibly try.

I know it will be a while before you are ready to proceed with the fish but I'm wondering how you are planning to handle the big swing in the water chemistry when you add all the fish at one time?

[Aquattro]

so sorry that you were not able to save them Brad. Certainly you did everything that you could possibly try.

I know it will be a while before you are ready to proceed with the fish but I'm wondering how you are planning to handle the big swing in the water chemistry when you add all the fish at one time?

That's part of the plan I haven't quite figured out yet :) Tim T had suggested an ammonia salt added to the tank (NH4CL I think?), and this would keep the filter going. I do still have lots of snails, hermits and shrimp, which will contribute.
I suspect that the filter media from the treatment tank will be as disease free as the fish, so I imagine adding that to the sump with the addition of the fish should balance things out. I think. I can also transfer one or two every other day, they don't all need to go into the display the same day, they just need to be treated and quarantined together.

I haven't really got to that part yet though, at this point I still have half a dozen fish in treatment, 2 fish in the 180 to extract somehow, and then build a fish list. Once I've done that, I need to figure out how to pay for them.
In addition to sick fish, I've had a sick dog for 3 months that has cost me a couple grand so far....sigh

[reefwars]

In addition to sick fish, I've had a sick dog for 3 months that has cost me a couple grand so far....sigh



whats wrong with your dog??:(

[Borderjumper]

well.. you will be ready for fish about April.. April is the next scheduled frag swap and sale:mrgreen: you may have to charge a slight cover charge at the door!

[Reef Pilot]

I know it will be a while before you are ready to proceed with the fish but I'm wondering how you are planning to handle the big swing in the water chemistry when you add all the fish at one time?

My advice would be to put the new fish through the hypo salinity routine, whether they look sick or not. I have done that twice now, for a total of 3 months from purchase to display tank. That way you are assured of no ich getting into your display tank. Of course be sure that your display tank is fallow for at least 3 months. And use a fully cycled canister filter with your QT.

I think the fish actually like the lower salinity water, as they adapted quickly, and seemed active and happy. That also gave me plenty of time to get them feeding well, and fatten them up before moving them to the display tank.

During the final week, I did daily water changes with display tank water, to bring the salinity up, changing more water each time until it was almost the same. A little extra salt with the final change brought the salinity equal to the display tank.

Another big advantage with this method is that the new fish are fully acclimatized to your display tank when you are done.

[Aquattro]

whats wrong with your dog??:(

No idea. Best we can tell, a fungal infection. Lost a ton of weight, neurological issues, one eye messed up.

A specialist suggested a new medication that seems to be helping. We went with fungal even though the tests were negative. Twice. But this stuff seems to be helping, she's actually starting to play, after laying in the corner for 3 months...

[Borderjumper]

No idea. Best we can tell, a fungal infection. Lost a ton of weight, neurological issues, one eye messed up.

A specialist suggested a new medication that seems to be helping. We went with fungal even though the tests were negative. Twice. But this stuff seems to be helping, she's actually starting to play, after laying in the corner for 3 months...

well thats good news!

[Aquattro]

well thats good news!
ya, she bit my arm and tried to drag me off the bed, looks like she's coming around -lol

[Aquattro]

Scopas and Leopard wrasse gone :(

[reefme]

sad,sad,sad...

[Aquattro]

Ya, it looks like I didn't get the meds in time. Won't happen again, I've ordered lots for future treatment/quarantine :)

[reefme]

Ya, it looks like I didn't get the meds in time. Won't happen again, I've ordered lots for future treatment/quarantine :)

May I ask which medications are you using?

[Veng68]

Ya, it looks like I didn't get the meds in time. Won't happen again, I've ordered lots for future treatment/quarantine :)

Did you contact Fishman?

Cheers,
Vic

[Aquattro]

May I ask which medications are you using?

chloroquine phosphate..

[reefwars]

brad i think you have a great idea build a fishlist and qt all at once and add at once, sorry to hear about all this you can tell its very stressful and emotional for you.

glad to hear the pup is on the mend its sad seeing your little buddy not well:(

cheers man im hoping the best for you:)

[reefme]

chloroquine phosphate..

Where are you buying this?

[Aquattro]

Where are you buying this?

In the US. Big bucks, and I bought enough to treat the pacific ocean :(

[Myka]

Oh Brad!! This is awful. Sorry I'm so late on the bandwagon here...

I didn't read it all, just the first few page, and last few pages. It sounds like you're not sure if it is velvet or not?

Personally, I won't use copper medication for any reason (I'm sure you've seen me say this before). I really like to use Formalin instead. It is very broad-spectrum...and my go to when I have no idea what is ailing the fish. I have never had it fail me yet. The only thing that is a pain in the butt about Formalin is that you have to dip the fish rather than treating the water in the hospital tank. I don't mind doing this because I'm not a fan of treating the water column anyway...I haven't had a whole lot of luck doing that. Even for antibiotics I prefer to put those into the food.

You said you were having troubles with Prime not working? How are you determining it is not working? Test kits? Which ones? Most test kits are not compatible with Prime. FWIW, AmQuel is half the price and 2x the concentration. BTW, these products need to be dosed daily - just enough to keep the ammonia low - don't go by the dosing instructions. Doing 25% waterchanges 1-2x weekly helps flush all the chems out too and make a big difference. You don't need a cycled filter or water. I've kept dozens of fish in fresh saltwater with nothing but an airstone and/or powerhead for weeks on end. You do have to use a lot of AmQuel or (even more) Prime though.

HTH

[Aquattro]

Thanks Mindy. Pretty sure it's velvet, but the stress may have also triggered some ich. It's all fish, 2 tanks.
Not a fan of copper either, but formalin scares me, I killed a $500 pair of discus once and swore I'd never use it again. This chloroquine sounds promising, and I'm trying that. Lots of references to it's success, so here's hoping.
I know you "can" setup a fresh tank, but it's just too much work with everything else I've got to deal with. The prime didn't work solely based on fish response. Once I got a mature foam block and did a nearly full water change, they settled down a bit. Unfortunately I helped them on their way to dead with ammonia levels first.
I still have a goby in the display that so far seems unaffected and too smart to go into the trap, so until he dies or jumps, the timer for fallow tank doesn't start. Overall, it's been a **** week....

[Myka]

Brad, you probably weren't dosing enough Prime. To give you an idea, I was dosing almost 1 mL per day AmQuel into about 6 gallons holding an adult pair of Darwin clowns. I split the dose into two times per day. Remember AmQuel is twice the concentration of Prime. I like those SeaChem Ammonia Alerts too. They aren't overly accurate as I find the ammonia level is often 10x what the alert says. So if there is even a trace that shows up on the alert I do an extra dose.

I am surprised you killed fish with Formalin. I've never killed a fish with it, and I've used it for the better part of 20 years. Although one has to be very diligent about using a good fine-bubble airstone while dipping the fish. The carcinogenic effect that Formalin has does scare me though, so I only use Formalin as a last resort. I am also very careful when working with it...I use gloves, eye goggles, the whole she-bang. The LC-50 of copper is way too close to the treatment level for me to be comfortable using it. Plus, hobbyist test kits suck in general and copper test kits are no exception so I'm not confident that we can test copper good enough to remain in that small window anyway.

Have you tried fishing for the Goby with a fish hook? Might need a permit. ;)

[Aquattro]

Brad, you probably weren't dosing enough Prime. To give you an idea, I was dosing almost 1 mL per day AmQuel into about 6 gallons holding an adult pair of Darwin clowns. I split the dose into two times per day. Remember AmQuel is twice the concentration of Prime. I like those SeaChem Ammonia Alerts too. They aren't overly accurate as I find the ammonia level is often 10x what the alert says. So if there is even a trace that shows up on the alert I do an extra dose.

I am surprised you killed fish with Formalin. I've never killed a fish with it, and I've used it for the better part of 20 years. Although one has to be very diligent about using a good fine-bubble airstone while dipping the fish. The carcinogenic effect that Formalin has does scare me though, so I only use Formalin as a last resort. I am also very careful when working with it...I use gloves, eye goggles, the whole she-bang. The LC-50 of copper is way too close to the treatment level for me to be comfortable using it. Plus, hobbyist test kits suck in general and copper test kits are no exception so I'm not confident that we can test copper good enough to remain in that small window anyway.

Have you tried fishing for the Goby with a fish hook? Might need a permit. ;)

I probably used nowhere close to that amount, so I guess that's why it wasn't effective. I looked at one of those alert stick on things, thought it was pretty hoky looking, so passed.
The formalin was more a math error than anything, I used something like 10x the dose in tank. They were well preserved though...
I haven't researched the LC50 for copper, as I'm more concerned with the long term effects on liver and kidney. with the amount of water marine fish drink, they'd have to process way too much. And yes, testing and adjusting 2 or more times a day with hobbyist equipment is asking for trouble. And scaleless fish are more susceptible. and and and..it goes on, and not a chemical I'll use. I will stock some formalin though, just to have it on hand.

[TimT]

Hi Brad,

Formalin releases Formaldehyde gas which will affect your whole house and family. When doing a Formalin bath it is usually for a half hour and you need to aerate heavily as Formalin depletes the oxygen in the water. For me the risk of exposing my family to a carcinogen is not worth it when there are non toxic methods available.

I would skip the formalin bath as it's nasty for the fish, much worse than copper, and just do a fw bath for 5 minutes. If they have ick go longer if they can take it. If they have ick I would use hyposalinity(1.008) in the QT to control it.

Pretty much all wholesalers and exporters use copper in their holding systems so your fish have already been exposed for at least a month, most likely more as stores generally use copper to.

My recommendation would be the FW dips for the mv and hyposalinity treatment if they have ick.

+1 for Mindy on the Amquel. It is a much better product and doesn't stink like sulfur.

Cheers,
Tim

[Aquattro]

Thanks Tim. I've used formalin before, I know how it affects the house :)

While FW dips may help alleviate the parasite/protazoan on the fish, it does little to the free floating ones. I've reduced the tank a bit, and will drop it to 1.010 long term, but will continue with the chloroquine. It has no apparent ill effects on the fish, keeps the bacterial filter intact, and other than photosensitivity, keeps it's levels in the tank.

Since I now have a matured system running, I'll keep it going until I replace fish. I still can't keep a q tank going full time, so that's not an option long term.

[TimT]

Hi Brad,

Well you mentioned picking a kidlet up from hospital so I assumed there was kids in the house. Sounds like your familiar with it so enough said.

The FW dip will clean the fish, then if it goes into a sterile tank with new SW it should break the life cycle of the parasites.

I assume you are referring to QT for the 1.010 sg. I found that it wasn't quite therapeutic at that level, hence recommending the 1.008. I started trying the hypo at 1.012 but found that it became effective at 1.008. Hypo does not work against mv, only ick and flukes.

Cheers,
Tim

[Myka]

Brad, if you do get some Formalin 10% is easy to deal with... 0.1 mL per 1 liter of bath water. Most stuff sold for fish is 37% though which is also easy...1 mL per 1 gallon. :)

I would skip the formalin bath as it's nasty for the fish, much worse than copper,

Cheers,
Tim

Good point on the Formaldehyde gas. I use it in our back room with the door closed and the windows open.

Where do you get the info that Formalin is worse for fish than copper? I've never heard that, and in my experiences I have had much better luck with Formalin than copper.

[vaporize]

Sorry to hear about the losses Brad.

Actually if it is really velvet, chloroquinine phosphate would not be fast enough in treating it. Even cupramine is too slow for most cases, I would actually use the pure copper salt copper sulfatate in QT. I know how you said copper is bad for the fish in long term but what if there isn't a "long term" for them anymore - it's either you cure them or they are gone.

CP is good for using in the QT when new fish arrives, I've seen places that treat it on all new shipments; the speed it can get to the fish is questionable though.

Formalin is basically a burning agent, whatever it can burn in the water or on the fish, it kills. Formalin alone does not cure MV in most cases and it takes off fish's slime coat. It should not be used if fish has open wounds either or it kills them.

MV is one of the reasons why people QT their fish

[Aquattro]

Sorry to hear about the losses Brad.

Actually if it is really velvet, chloroquinine phosphate would not be fast enough in treating it. Even cupramine is too slow for most cases, I would actually use the pure copper salt copper sulfatate in QT. I know how you said copper is bad for the fish in long term but what if there isn't a "long term" for them anymore - it's either you cure them or they are gone.

CP is good for using in the QT when new fish arrives, I've seen places that treat it on all new shipments; the speed it can get to the fish is questionable though.

Formalin is basically a burning agent, whatever it can burn in the water or on the fish, it kills. Formalin alone does not cure MV in most cases and it takes off fish's slime coat. It should not be used if fish has open wounds either or it kills them.

MV is one of the reasons why people QT their fish

Agreed, the meds were to late to save the heavily affected fish. If I had it 10 days ago, I could have probably saved them all. I'll be using it though for all future fish before they go in the display tank.

[reefme]

In the US. Big bucks, and I bought enough to treat the pacific ocean :(

Can you share me some. Just in case my Atlantic ocean crash on me. I only know how to use paypal.

[TimT]

Hi Mindy,

Where do you get the info that Formalin is worse for fish than copper?

Compare the health effects of Formalin(burns, blindness etc) to the health effects of copper(irritation etc). Here is some info from the MSDS for 37% formalin.

ACUTE HEALTH EFFECTS

Swallowed:

Toxic if swallowed.

Will cause burns to the mouth, mucous membranes, throat, oesophagus and stomach. If sufficient quantities are ingested (swallowed) death may occur.

The methanol stabilizer in solutions is a cause of visual impairment and possible permanent blindness.



Eye:

Will cause burns to the eyes with effects including: Pain, tearing, conjunctivitis and if duration of exposure is long enough, blindness will occur.



Skin:

Toxic by skin contact.

Will cause burns to the skin, with effects including; Redness, blistering, localised pain and dermatitis.

The material is capable of causing allergic skin reactions and may cause skin sensitisation. Toxic effects may result from skin absorption..



Inhaled:

Toxic if inhaled.

Will cause severe irritation to the nose, throat and respiratory system with effects including: Dizziness, headache, in-coordination, chest pains, coughing, respiratory paralysis and or failure.




It only takes 60 to 90ml of it ingested to kill a human.

When you do a Formalin bath on a fish you are burning off the protective slime layer, burning it's eyes, mouth, gills, throat and stomach.

With a FW bath non of these things occur.

With a copper treatment the fish is exposed to 0.26mg/l of ionic copper. Fish can survive exposures over 0.45mg/l of ionic copper.

Something else to consider is that 75% of the fish in this hobby have been cyanided when caught... so their lives are already shortened considerably. Exposing them to a little copper for a short time is not going to do to much, a lot less than the damage inflicted by the parasites. The problem with copper is that people don't generally have a reliable way of testing the concentration so they over/under dose. Sadly the fish usually dies either way.

Cheers,
Tim

[Myka]

Tim,

Hoomans are different than fishies, however in both copper damages liver and kidneys. In fish it also damages their gills and sense of smell which can implicate breeding behaviors. In hoomans, copper is linked to Alzheimer's Disease as well as liver damage (cirrhosis).

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder)] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

Copper also binds with carbonates and precipitates out of the water column. If the pH drops (as is common for QTs) the precipitate will redissolve and cause a spike in copper large enough to be lethal. Copper is not compatible with Prime or AmQuel as those products will convert Cu+2 to Cu+ which is much more toxic and will often be lethal. Copper also stresses the fishes' systems enough that it can make the fish susceptible to other diseases.

With formalin, the fish is only exposed for a short time (45 to 60 minutes). Formalin is compatible with AmQuel and Prime, although the addition of ammonia detoxifiers are not needed in a bath anyway. The toxicity of formalin doesn't change in reaction to pH (or alkalinity). There is a much bigger difference between the treatment range and the LC-50 of Formalin in comparison to copper. The LC-50 of formalin is many times the concentration of typical baths. [Here's a study (http://203.250.122.194/seminar/nysemi_0626.pdf)]

Formalin is also approved by the FDA to use as treatment for parasites on food fish, where copper is not. [FDA approved drugs (http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170404.htm)]

I've read a lot of studies on copper and formalin, and I have not come to my conclusions uneducated. :)


Something else to consider is that 75% of the fish in this hobby have been cyanided when caught...

Woah. That's quite the statement. I doubt you could support this statement with evidence...? How do you come to this conclusion?

[Aquattro]

Woah. That's quite the statement. I doubt you could support this statement with evidence...? How do you come to this conclusion?

I'm not sure how supportable it is, but I have no reservations about it being true. I can't catch a wrasse in a small box with a net, I don't believe for a second anyone catches one in the ocean with a net :)

[vaporize]

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder)] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.


I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

[marie]

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

I treated both of my potters angels with cupramine for 14 days with no problems. Copper will cause a decrease in appetite in all fish though

[hillegom]

I'm not sure how supportable it is, but I have no reservations about it being true. I can't catch a wrasse in a small box with a net, I don't believe for a second anyone catches one in the ocean with a net :)

I once read somewhere, that because wrasses are such gluttons, that they catch them with barb less hooks, and quite easily

[Aquattro]

I once read somewhere, that because wrasses are such gluttons, that they catch them with barb less hooks, and quite easily

The thing is, the guys that catch these fish we enjoy are fathers and husbands, trying to feed their families. Now on average, they probably get 0.10 per fish on the beach from the local wholesaler. Now economically, they have to think that using a hook to catch a single fish will take what, 5 - 10 minutes on average (try it in your tank ). But, if they blast the reef head with CN, they'll get 50 fish dazed and confused, ready to be picked. That might mean the difference between rice and meat for dinner. mostly, these countries have little knowledge or concern for the environment, and see only what they can make today and the immediate future. Sure, there are programs to teach net fishing, and some orgs supply nets, and yes, some fish are actually caught that way. But for the fishermen to make decent money, and to supply the global demand for fish, they just are not catching sinlge fish on a hook in any appreciable volume. Some fish yes, clowns are easy to catch, some bottom dwellers, etc, but many fish can only (easily) be caught with a bottle of CN.
Is this 75%?? No idea, but I'm sure it's a lot higher than most people are aware...IMO :)

[Myka]

I have a friend from Bali that used to work as a fisherman for the aquarium trade. I asked him all about it years ago, and he confirmed that cyanide was still used there, although it was frowned upon even within the fishermen. He figured the number would be closer to 10%.

I think 75% is outrageously exaggerated. It would be nice if someone did an undercover analysis of the fish collection for the aquarium trade. We might learn all sorts of interesting (and scary) things...

[fishoholic]

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

My king angel and coral beauty survived the copper treatment no problem.

[TimT]

Hi Mindy,

Hoomans are different than fishies, however in both copper damages liver and kidneys. In fish it also damages their gills and sense of smell which can implicate breeding behaviors. In hoomans, copper is linked to Alzheimer's Disease as well as liver damage (cirrhosis).

Interesting, should I ask for proof texts as you do of me? It seems strange that if copper was so dangerous to humans why is it allowed for piping in our homes? I was aware that aluminum has been linked with alzheimer's but not copper. +1 for drinking RO water. :)

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

It is always wise to do research before you begin keeping animals as it gives you a base to start from. 12 years ago I researched copper before I opted to start using it in my business. Seacare Maricultured Products was Western Canada's largest Marine only wholesaler for a lot of years. So, I have the research, albeit old, and on top of it ten+ years of experience keeping 1000's of fish(angels, tangs and scaleless) in copper medicated water. I have had damselfish(neopomacentrus azysron) and a sleeper goby(Valencienna sp.) both lay egg masses while living in copper water at 0.26mg/l ionic copper. Pics are available. I used copper sulfate and Citric acid that I would mix myself. That is the most potent form and requires constant monitoring, which I did with a Lamotte Digital colorimeter.

If the pH drops (as is common for QTs) the precipitate will redissolve and cause a spike in copper large enough to be lethal.

Yes, the copper does get absorbed by the buffers in the water, pvc pipes, and the fishes themselves absorb it. After a while it quits getting absorbed by the buffers and pipes and the readings begin to stabilize.

It typically takes a pH of lower than 6.9 to begin to start redissolving carbonates. Most people run their reactors around 6.5. If your QT is lower than 6.9pH the fish is probably dead already or will be soon.


Formalin is also approved by the FDA to use as treatment for parasites on food fish, where Copper is not. [FDA approved drugs]


The reason Copper and Malachite Green are not approved by FDA for food fish is that they both go into the tissues and leave residues. Formalin just temporarily burns the outer layer of the fish and leaves behind no traces other than the damage.

I've read a lot of studies on copper and formalin, and I have not come to my conclusions uneducated.

Well we both have come to different conclusions so we can agree to disagree. :) I don't want to hijack Brad's thread anymore.


As far as my comment on cyanided fish in the industry. The cyanide capitals in this industry are Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam. Probably 90% of the fish come from those areas and there is no question by anyone in the know that the cyanide use there is heavy.

Some fishes are available from other areas but the costs are at least 6 - 10 times from Philippines or Indo. I am referring to Bicolor Angels or Coral Beauty Angels, Naso Tang, Blue Tangs etc. The more expensive places are generally in the South Pacific, Australia, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Fiji, Tonga, Hawaii, Marshall Islands etc. In those areas they don't use cyanide although some of them may use MS222 to anesthetize the fish. Business economics then takes over as to where the fish are sourced from.

If you google Peter Rubec or Steve Robinson or Vaughn Pratt and Cyanide you will come up with a lot of info. For your info I have had numerous lengthy conversations with all of them in regards to Cyanide and Cyanide Free Exporters whom I could buy from.

Cyanide damages or outright destroys what is called the proton pump. It converts Adenosine diphosphate into Adenosine triphosphate, which the muscles can then use. Basically Cyanide disrupts or destroys a fishes ability to convert food into useable energy. Thus the fish eats well but starves and eventually dies. This info from a friend who is a Doctor of Internal Medicine in Texas.

If you wish to discuss cyanide use we should start a new thread.

Cheers,
Tim

[Aquattro]

I don't want to hijack Brad's thread anymore.


I'm mostly done with it, and this is kinda pertinent :)

[Lance]

Holy crap! Was away for a couple weeks and come back to find this very disturbing thread. So sorry for your losses Brad.

[Aquattro]

Holy crap! Was away for a couple weeks and come back to find this very disturbing thread. So sorry for your losses Brad.
You can't leave for a couple of weeks, you miss too much! Ya, lost almost all of the fish, and the fallow period doesn't start until I can get the remaining orange spot goby out. Gonna try a spear :)

[Lance]

and the fallow period doesn't start until I can get the remaining orange spot goby out. Gonna try a spear :)


Been through that and I gotta say it's a looooong 8 weeks. A tank with no fish in it is a sad, lonely place.

[Aquattro]

Been through that and I gotta say it's a looooong 8 weeks. A tank with no fish in it is a sad, lonely place.

I wouldn't know yet, I have a goby that won't die...

I've got a sohal and a queen coming, I hope, they'll live at the store for a while before going into quarantine. Now I have to make a wanted list, most of the last fish were adoptees.

[lastlight]

I've got a sohal and a queen coming

Hate to be the bearer of bad news brad but sohals need 8 foot tanks dude.

Crap and you've likely already paid for it too. :cry:

[Aquattro]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news brad but sohals need 8 foot tanks dude.

Crap and you've likely already paid for it too. :cry:

No, it's a special 6ft tank sohal. I'm only going to feed it twice a week to keep it small.

[hillegom]

No, it's a special 6ft tank sohal. I'm only going to feed it twice a week to keep it small.

lol
Brad, would it help if you run an Uv sterilizer in your QT?

[Aquattro]

lol
Brad, would it help if you run an Uv sterilizer in your QT?

I don't think so, it looks like the fish left are doing fine. I add the second dose of meds tomorrow, so we'll see how they look.

[gregzz4]

I don't think so, it looks like the fish left are doing fine. I add the second dose of meds tomorrow, so we'll see how they look.
So this means you've had no more deaths? That would be great.
There's been so much x-tra chatter in this thread that I haven't been keeping up.

[Aquattro]

So this means you've had no more deaths? That would be great.
There's been so much x-tra chatter in this thread that I haven't been keeping up.

lol :) Ya, the fish remaining seem to be good, they're eating and playing and doing fish stuff. The yellow tang seems a bit off food still, but no more bumps or dots or powdery skin.

[Veng68]

Do you think a UV or Ozone on the main tank would help during the fallow period?

Cheers,
Vic

[gregzz4]

Excellent.
And for the chatter, I tried to read it all, and it's good reading.
But sometimes ya get too busy and have to skim the content.

[gregzz4]

Do you think a UV or Ozone on the main tank would help during the fallow period?

Cheers,
Vic
I don't see it hurting as far as 'bad critters' goes, but it will also kill off good bacteria. And especially since they aren't multiplying as much when it's fallow, my thought is, unless you are in a hurry, it may cause some unwanted die off.
Wouldn't most bad critters die off eventually on their own?

[Aquattro]

I don't see it hurting as far as 'bad critters' goes, but it will also kill off good bacteria. And especially since they aren't multiplying as much when it's fallow, my thought is, unless you are in a hurry, it may cause some unwanted die off.
Wouldn't most bad critters die off eventually on their own?

They will, but there also isn't any appreciable amount of good bacteria in the water column to worry about. Not really in a rush, other than getting the remaining goby out...

[Myka]

Interesting, should I ask for proof texts as you do of me? It seems strange that if copper was so dangerous to humans why is it allowed for piping in our homes? I was aware that aluminum has been linked with alzheimer's but not copper. +1 for drinking RO water. :)

I don't remember where I originally learned about copper toxicity because it was probably a decade or more ago, but a quick Google search comes up with an article in a medical journal:

Copper and Alzheimer's. [Paper (http://www.jacn.org/content/28/3/238.full)]

Copper toxicity in Merck Medical Journal. [Article (http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/nutritional_disorders/mineral_deficiency_and_toxicity/copper.html)]

Liver cirrhosis from copper is rather unusual to typical healthy people because the liver is able to remove copper via bile. People with a genetic inability to remove copper from their systems (like Wilson`s disease) will get accumulated copper in the liver which will lead to cirrhosis.

[gregzz4]

I think I missed something during my plumbing ...
Did Brad say he lost ALL his fish ?

[gregzz4]

I think I missed something during my plumbing ...
Did Brad say he lost ALL his fish ?
Well that was a stupid post that I now can't edit.
I see, reading above, that you have remaining fish Brad.
I obviously confused your dilemma with someone else's.
I hope the dudes you have are doing well and fully recover.
I'm going to go back to my plumbing now before I make a bigger ass of myself that I can't edit later.

[Aquattro]

Well that was a stupid post that I now can't edit.
I see, reading above, that you have remaining fish Brad.
I obviously confused your dilemma with someone else's.
I hope the dudes you have are doing well and fully recover.
I'm going to go back to my plumbing now before I make a bigger ass of myself that I can't edit later.


If you'd edited that away, I wouldn't be able to reply. Yes, I have a yellow tang, a clown and 2 tiny green chromis left. I guess cheap fish are more resilient to disease than the $200 fishes :)