Kent users: alk/precipitation in new SW?

[Delphinus]

After using IO for the longest time, I just switched to Kent salt a few months ago.

I get terrible precipitate out of a new batch of saltwater. Is this fairly common?

Here's how I mix my SW:
- fill 30g bucket with RO
- heater and a 802 powerhead for about 24 hours to get up to tank temp
- mix in salt
- I use a drill mixer and run the drill for a few minutes
- let sit (with heater and powerhead) a couple more days before using.

After I come back to it after about 24 hours, there is a serious calcium precipitate over everything. The heater is coated, the powerhead is coated, and the green rubbermaid container is literally white on the inside.

I switched to Kent because it I heard it mixes with a higher alk out of the box than IO. I haven't tested the alk of a fresh batch yet but it must be pretty high to rip out calcium in this quantity.

Is there something I could improve upon my methods? Could I have a bad batch of Kent? (I'll test alk of a fresh batch next time I mix some and will have a better idea at that time.) But I'd really like to hear opinions and experiences of other Kent users in the meantime.

The other theory I have is that there's something amiss with my RO water. It's not RO/DI, it's just RO and my membrane is probably a few years old. All I have tested the water for is PO4 and NO3 and of course those are zero readings. But I have no idea about TDS or any other parameter.

Thanks!

[christyf5]

Mine does that too. I only mix it in the bucket for like a half hour or so (I get the RO water up to temp before I add the salt). I still have precipitate all over the heater and, to a lesser extent, the bottom of the bucket. Weird :confused: I haven't measured the alk either but the ca was about 440ppm. I'll check it this afternoon when I get home from work.

Christy :)

[Canadian Man]

Tony,
I never had that problem with Kent. Recently I switched to IO again as the bucket's were on sale at xmas.

I found that this happens when the water get's too hot. I was mixing up a batch with a mag 7 (VERY OLD) and it put's alot of heat into the water. I forgot to unplug the powerhead and a few days later when I went to use the saltwater I opened the garbage container to find the same thing you describe.

I attribute that to excessivly hight temps.
The water felt like bath water to me.

[christyf5]

Yeh I did get the water too hot once. Maybe that did it. I'll clean everything and start over with lower temps and see what happens.

Christy :)

[Aquattro]

Sounds similar to the bad IO buckets a few months ago. I'd check the alk of the new batch.

[Lofus]

High pH will cause precipitation of calcium and phosphate.

[Aquattro]

High pH will cause precipitation of calcium and phosphate.

What are you considering "high" pH?

[BCOrchidGuy]

I've never had that problem with my Kent salt but guess what, Kent Marine was bought out and it looks like the company that bought Kent is going to discontinue the salt.
Kent salt is IO salt with some additives (this is directly from one of the Kent Scientists) IO makes a top notch salt but to go into a Kent bucket they add some stuff to raise Ca, Mg, and some other things (lost the email).
Central Garden who owns oceanic and all glass among other companies bought Kent Marine. I'll be able to find out more today but the rep told me last week that they were probably going to drop the Salt.
BTW, I'm NOT trying to start a rumour... lol.. just incase someone wants to run with this.

Doug

[Delphinus]

Thanks for the thoughts.

The important question is, what's causing the precipitation? I.e., if it was a pH issue (or whatever), what's causing the pH spike? Ultimately, it's either something in the water, or it's something in the salt. Or it's an artifact of the mixing process itself. The behaviour is EXACTLY like what was reported with the bad batches of IO last year. Ironically I never had this problem with IO (and I had been using IO for many many years up until now). I thought I'd better pose the question here to see if anyone else is noticing something, or if someone sees something in my methods that obviously not optimal (or something like that).

I haven't checked the temp of the mixing water but the heater is set to 26 (high 70's in F). I'll throw a thermometer in there and see what it's really at. FWIW, it feels the same as tank water to me, it's not noticeably warmer (like bathtub temperature or something like that).

It's a big heater though, probably way overkill for a 30g mixing bucket, but it was just one I had lying around. Offhand I'm not sure of the exact wattage but it won't be smaller than 150W.

[EmilyB]

Only had a problem like that once with Kent Tony, over the five years I've used it. And it was around the time people were having the trouble with IO. (maybe that is a coincidence). The pictures on the bucket were slighty different after that batch I recall. Otherwise it has always been crystal clear within minutes. :confused:

[whaase]

I don't have that much experience mixing salt up, but I did mix it with ice cold water, and warm water. Both mixed up fine... But then again, I didn't allow it to sit for more than a couple hours at most before adding it to the tank.

Walter

[kari]

Tony,
Just to add to your thoughts, I have been using Kent from about the same time as you have but have not seen similar things happening. The difference in my mixing habits are that I don't bother heating the water prior or after adding salt. I do use RO (no DI.) I have just mixed the water with a MJ power head and added it to the tank after 12hrs at a rather slow rate (eg 6 litres/hr.) Haven't noticed any percipitation within the mixing bucket.

Kari

[christyf5]

Hey,

I checked out my salt and the Ca was 460ppm and alk was at 4.0meq/L. Seems normal to me. I just have a bit of calcium precipitate left on my heater (small patch) and not much left in the bucket. Can't check the pH as the probe is wonky. The salt mixes up fine, just leaves abit of a residue in the bucket.

Christy :)

[Delphinus]

Here's a picture of the mixing bucket. I had scrubbed the thing (plus my powerhead and heater) spotless after my last water change.

http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/temp/misc/swmixprecip.jpg

I didn't test the Ca or Alk or even pH tonight... I'll try tomorrow (I'm too bagged to do it right now). It probably makes sense to test it on a fresh batch anyways because I presume the Ca and Alk will be less, after all this has been precip'd out. More interested to see what it mixes up at.

Incidentally the last water change (the one before this one) I didn't do the drill mix thing, I just let the powerhead do the mixing. Same thing. Course the heater is still there.

Oh right, I should go find a thermometer to toss in there and see what the temp is. I'll post back tomorrow maybe with that info.

[christyf5]

Wow thats way more precipitation than I've seen. :eek:

[Delphinus]

I was thinking it's pretty nasty... I should try mixing it without the heater to see what difference it makes but I like having my SW at tank temp that way it's ready to go in on a moment's notice and if I have to swap out a lot it's not like there's any kind of temp differential. I can swap out 30g out of my 75g and not even have my more senstive acros slime up (the ones that'll slime if I so much as have my hand in the tank too close to them for too long).

I suppose if it's mixing up with an alk >4.0 then it's probably better to let it precip out rather than risk having it precip in the tank (or worse, put things through an alk shock).

So far other than the messy mixing equipment the water hasn't given me any issues once it's in the tanks. Luckily I like to let the water age/stabilize before use, if I was dropping in 40% of unstable water into a tank I'd hate to become another one of those "IO statistics from last year" (although it's neither "last year" nor "IO" ... well .. I know Kent is IO but with "more stuff" .... hmmm, maybe I AM an IO statistic). :neutral:

[BCOrchidGuy]

Tony, the sad thing is I've used many other salts, well not many but at least 4 others and I can tell you something, Kent/IO have always been consistant for me from one batch to the other where the others have all ways been all over the place.
A few years ago I tried one of those salts by the guy who sponsored that big study that I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. I tried his salt with the little bottle. The first bag I had alot of trouble with my pH, my Ca and my Alk were all over the place from one batch to another. I figured it was my fault with the little bottle. I did some reading and found out what folks did was mix up the salt in a super saline solution and add the bottle and then make sure it's mixed up really good. Then take some of that soup to make up the water for the water change so I did that with my next bag. That bag when mixed for the right SG had a pH of 7.6 and a Ca level of 240ish. So I figured I did something wrong again tried the same thing again, next bag had a pH of over 9 and a Ca level of well over 500. I tried their next brand (the not so premium) same things all over the place. So I tried another manufacturers salt, a name brand, very low Ca levels. Tried one other, got my free T shirt, salt didn't mix well, always lots of stuff left over in the mixing tank.
Then I tried Kent, mixed up 10 gallons and pH was 8.2ish, Ca was 400ish, Alk was 11dKH. I thought wow, that was easy, couple weeks later mixed up 10 more gallons same thing, and again and again and again.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, in my opinion Kent/IO is the best salt we've got available out here in my opinion, perhaps in controversy to the coughcovetedcough S-15 report. I was lucky I didn't get any of that bad salt last year. But then again, I haven't had any problems with Rio power heads either.

Doug

[Delphinus]

You figure I just have a bad batch then? :confused:

The 50g bag of Kent salt I bought during Boxing week did this to me, too.

Maybe my methods of mixing work fine for IO, but not for Kent?

Kent users: please describe to me your SW mixing process. What do you see in my process that you think could be at fault?

[Aquattro]

Tony, when I used Kent, I added salt to water. Nothing more technical than that. Cold water, heated water, didn't matter. You shouldn't need to stand on your head while pouring salt from a green cup into the right side of the receptacle while holding a voodoo doll in your left hand. It's just salt.

[Delphinus]

OK then... What would you do if this was happening to you? Live with it?

If IO and Kent is consistent, that's great and all, but then WTF is going on here??? :neutral: If it's not the salt, and it's not what I'm doing to it, and it's not the temp ... what's left? The water? :confused: what could possibly be wrong with RO water?

I thought maybe there are other things to consider, like, maybe you should add half of the salt, let it mix, then add the rest an hour later or something. I thought maybe the issue could be that I'm taking it from 1.000 to 1.025 within 3-5 minutes.

But if not ....

[Aquattro]

Tony, if this was happening to me, I would switch to IO. If the Kent measures fine for alk, ca, pH, etc., don't worry about it.

[MitchM]

Tony, it's happened to me a number of times over the years, and I just ignore it. I find that it dissolves within the next few batches of new salt water.

Mitch

[Chad]

I found it only does it when it is super heated.. The heater I was using was broken and it would take the temp over 90 and then it would start to coat things.. but now .. no problems.

[BCOrchidGuy]

Tony, the way I mixed the salt was, put my salt in a 10 gallon tank, top off with water, plug in the heater and the power head, 24-48 hrs later I'd do my water change. I didn't wait because things weren't dissolving I just like to let it sit with the power head etc for a day or so.

Good luck, btw, Kent salt will still be available but in the near future it will be made by Oceanic instead of IO. Oceanic salt will be available probably next week at my LFS. I'll pick up a bag and see how it works.

Doug