how do i let the dark side take over?

[troni]

First off hello! So I'm done with freshwater. I have a 20g I'm turning into sw. I'm doing tons of research and getting rid of my freshwater stuff. I think I understand the setup process except one thing, should I completely clean the tank or just scrub off algae and fill up with sw? While I'm asking when buying previously loved LR what should I be cautious about? As much reading and looking that I've seen I haven't seen a LR cliff...lol like in nemo "the dropoff" I'm going to attempt this I think.

[fishytime]

welcome to the dark side:twised:.....first off, may the force be with you:mrgreen:......

some will say that most things that live in fresh water wont survive in saltwater so not to worry too much about cleaning the tank......I personally cleaned my present display with vinegar and water when I switched it from fresh to salt



when it comes to rock you can sometimes tell just by the price if its worth it....most people will come forward and admit if the rock they are selling has any issues and this will reflect in the price.....but that being said asking lots of questions never hurts..... questions like:.... any algae issues?.....any aiptasia issues?.....any mojano issues?.... any flatworm issues?.....any nudibranch issues?.....any hydroid issues?.......have they ever treated the tank with any meds?......if so, what?.....have they ever had corals like xenia, colt or chilli corals (all stuff that some consider pest corals)......there is probably one or two that Im forgetting, hopefully someone else will chime in.....so the best thing is to familiarize yourself with some of these things so that you know what to look for when you check out the rock....

[Nano]

Plus one
Always check it out first or ask them I almost bought some used LR in the beginning on kijiji not knowing anything. She however told me she had lots of aiptasia, but then lied and said that most people like it. So I called my lfs and they set me straight lol thank god. What are the dimensions of the tank? That can determine a lot in terms of aquascaping, but if you go about it the right way you can do just about anything. I personally love dry Marco rock, cause you can be very picky about your pieces and aquascaping is a breeze plus your possible pest problems are minimal.

[RedCoralEdmonton]

what Doug means to say is come into Red Coral Edmonton and come talk to me.... lol, but seriously I help people all the time get into setups cheap and efficiently.... ask anybody! Nothing but good advise.... and its cheap!!!! Nothing beats free!

Steve

[Edmonton newbie]

if you really need to see all those pests that doug mentioned just come look at my kitchen tank lol

[troni]

Ok so easier then I thought. Freshwater nitrifying bacteria the same as salt? Cause I think I'm still going to use my ac30 HOB filter, which is another thing I see a lot of nano tanks without skimmers but with filters. So rock that 2.50 probaly no good unless he's crazy. Ill start researching those pests and make sure I know what I'm looking for...unless red coral has some great deals on:mrgreen: lol...

[Edmonton newbie]

yes i was in red coral yesterday, he still has lots of dry rock there that you could seed yourself and have time to catch up on your reading whilr waiting for it to be ready for the fish

[troni]

I heard that can take up to a year

[Aquattro]

For a tank that's only 20g, you could get away with about 10 pounds of rock. For the potential hassle of using used rock, you'd be much better off buying fresh cured rock from the LFS. You're looking at a difference of what, 50 bucks? One 4 week battle with algae problems from old PO4 soaked rock will quickly have you questioning the "deal' you got.
While I'm sure that you can find some rock less than a year old that someone is selling at a loss, it's more likely 3 or 4 yr old rock, and often the person has shut down or down sized due to issues with the tank, like algae problems due to high nutrients. Since the live rock is the foundation in which you're building your entire tank, is it really worth it to try and save 50 bucks?
Sure, you might get a crab in new rock. You might get it in old rock. So what, leave it or catch it, it's not tough. I once got isopods in a batch of new rock. They're bad. I caught them all in 20 minutes. Done.
Trust me, it's easier to catch one or two pests in new rock than to battle hair algae for 3 months on used rock. With a crab, it can be annoying. With algae problems, your tank will look like crap and you'll probably regret setting it up in the first place.
As for dry rock, sure, no issues, but yes, it can take a long time to become real live rock. Maybe a year. For 50 bucks??
For people starting a 300g tank, rock price can be a concern, but for a 20g, start right and your time in the hobby will be more enjoyable.

Just my opinion :)

[Edmonton newbie]

no no just put a raw shrimp in the tank and in a few weeks you will have cured most of your rock plus you will have good clean rock with no pests unless you bring it in with corals lol do your reading and keep an open mind. all good things happen in saltwater tanks slowly

[paddyob]

I heard that can take up to a year

I believe if you seed it with quality rock it should be fine within a few months. Or through a good cycle.

Just stock slowly and patiently.

Personally, I have not used dry rock, but in the future I think I would. But only about 50% dry, the rest quality live rock.

Good luck.

[Aquattro]

no no just put a raw shrimp in the tank and in a few weeks you will have cured most of your rock

Not exactly. First, you don't cure the rock, since it had no die-off. Second, the difference between a cycled tank (not producing NH3/4) and having functional live rock, is the presence of denitrifying bacteria deep in the pores of the rock. This is going to take much longer than a couple of weeks. With dry rock in a NH3 free tank, you have pretty rocks. With real live rock, you have a filtration system for your tank that reduces NO3 to free N, giving a (mostly) complete nitrogen cycle. This is why a mature LR tank can be NO3 free, while with decorative rock, NO3 builds and requires water changes for dilution.

[Wayne]

If was doing a drop off I would strongly consider using dry rock so that you can place and glue everything at your pace. Then as suggested seed it with good quality live rock for a few months and then you should be pest free and good to go :biggrin:

[fishytime]

Not exactly. First, you don't cure the rock, since it had no die-off. Second, the difference between a cycled tank (not producing NH3/4) and having functional live rock, is the presence of denitrifying bacteria deep in the pores of the rock. This is going to take much longer than a couple of weeks. With dry rock in a NH3 free tank, you have pretty rocks. With real live rock, you have a filtration system for your tank that reduces NO3 to free N, giving a (mostly) complete nitrogen cycle. This is why a mature LR tank can be NO3 free, while with decorative rock, NO3 builds and requires water changes for dilution.

thanks for that post Brad.....Ive been trying as much as I can to get this point through to people......we are seeing a lot of people coming to the shop with this problem or that problem and through talking out their systems we find out that they have used a large percentage of dead rock and have stocked the tank wayyyyy to fast for the colonizing bacteria to
"catch up"....... maybe we can sweet talk Mindy into doing a "dead rock" article and make it a "sticky"?

[RedCoralEdmonton]

^totally agree with what Brad and Doug are saying.... same problem here in Edmonton....

Steve

[Aquattro]

maybe we can sweet talk Mindy into doing a "dead rock" article and make it a "sticky"?

Ok. You ask :) I think one of the most, if not THE most important things in building a reef is the rock. People are willing to spend thousands on lights, but without the right rock to build on, the lights are just going to grow problems.

Dry rock is a viable alternative, IF you have the patience. I know patience is not something I personally have much of....:)

[troni]

I know forsure that a cycled tank and curing rock is different. I think I had a thread on here that was titled cycled rock vs cured rock and myka gives a good talk. I think I'm convinced with such a small price difference in used and rock from the lfs I'm going to use quality rock. I think an article like that would be great because at one point I was searching for that topic. Would 20 lbs of live and say 10 lbs of dry pack my 20g to full? I won't have a sump untill I build my own stand.

[RedCoralEdmonton]

I think your 20 lbs of live would be sufficient, one lb per gallon is the rule I go by and it hasnt failed me yet...

Steve

[troni]

I think your 20 lbs of live would be sufficient, one lb per gallon is the rule I go by and it hasnt failed me yet...

Steve


Oh yes I understand that but to create a cliff, easier with base rock. But I want to have enough live rock.

[RedCoralEdmonton]

in that case follow the 20 lbs of live rock and use however much base as needed for your project!

Steve

[troni]

Oh yes but I don't know what that looks like will it be packed full? And here's the link to that thread http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80159

[RedCoralEdmonton]

oh I get it, you are asking how much dry you will need for your project. Its going to be hard for anyone to recommend how much dry you would need for it as none of us really know the dimensions and or what pieces you will find, you could buy your 20 lbs of live and buy 5 lbs of dry and start messing around, or just buy the 10 lbs of dry and if you have extra start another tank!!!! lol just joking.... but not really... lol :razz:

Steve

[troni]

Lol you'd love to see me start a 2nd or 3rd wouldn't you. Lol

[Aquattro]

I would find the pieces that suit what you need and see what it weighs. I always use about a half pound per gallon and that works well while still leaving room for fish to swim around. More rock is more places for detritus to build up.

[Reefie]

christyf5 has a sticky on a whole lot of reading on LR

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22062

I would suggest to use as much LR as possible, I went with just under 1LB / Gallon. Your tank will be up and running a lot quicker with cured LR rather than without.

If you have time, read through as many posts on here as you can to learn from fellow Canreefer's experiences. Hopefully you can learn from someone else's mistake rather than your own.

If you don't have time, MAKE SOME! Believe me, it'll be worth it!

Good luck!

[troni]

Thanks everybody on the responses. I ended just buying LR from a LFS.