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Sumfingwong
01-06-2012, 03:41 PM
My new DT has broken out into ich, probably from the kole and tomini tang I recently purchased.

I have a 55g I recently shutdown (not completely shut down, it has a heater and powerhead for the LR I am trying to sell)

I am thinking about setting up a 20g tank for all the small fish I have and treat them with cupramine. Then move the bigger puffers, foxface, kole and tomini tang to the 55 (move the LR out) and treat them with cupramine.

If I leave my 145 with the current LR, CuC, SPS and zoas with no fish. Can the ich die off? Or do I need to remove everything?

Thanks all

daniella3d
01-06-2012, 03:54 PM
Never treat copper in your main tank and never with liverock as it will be contaminated after that and you won't be able to put any invertabrate in that tank.

If you don't have any coral and invertabrate, you can lower your salinity and treat them with hyposalinity, it is much safer than copper.

If you have coral and invertabrate, clam, anemone etc...then you must buy a larger tank or borrow one from someone to treat all your fish and leave the display tank without any fish for 8 weeks.

This is why a quarantine on all fish is the way to go..it avoid such mess.

Nano
01-06-2012, 04:01 PM
I always listen to what she says hahaha. Also once i qt my fish a few weeks down the road i dump a capfull of herbtana in the dt once in a while just to play it safe. Usually a day or two before a water change so there isnt excess stuff in the water. I don't kniw if I'm right or wrong in doing so but i only had the one outbreak, and it was in my dt so that's why I do that. Cause I'm sure there is still ich in my tank and i like to try to keep it at bay.

MarkoD
01-06-2012, 04:08 PM
Feed your fish and make sure they're not stressed (due to poor water conditions). And they'll fight it off themselves

Sumfingwong
01-06-2012, 04:12 PM
Never treat copper in your main tank and never with liverock as it will be contaminated after that and you won't be able to put any invertabrate in that tank.

If you don't have any coral and invertabrate, you can lower your salinity and treat them with hyposalinity, it is much safer than copper.

If you have coral and invertabrate, clam, anemone etc...then you must buy a larger tank or borrow one from someone to treat all your fish and leave the display tank without any fish for 8 weeks.

This is why a quarantine on all fish is the way to go..it avoid such mess.

Thanks Daniella, my original question was if it was ok to leave the DT with the CuC and corals alone (not treating the DT) Will the ich eventually die off in a tank with no hosts?

Sumfingwong
01-06-2012, 04:14 PM
I always listen to what she says hahaha. Also once i qt my fish a few weeks down the road i dump a capfull of herbtana in the dt once in a while just to play it safe. Usually a day or two before a water change so there isnt excess stuff in the water. I don't kniw if I'm right or wrong in doing so but i only had the one outbreak, and it was in my dt so that's why I do that. Cause I'm sure there is still ich in my tank and i like to try to keep it at bay.

As of yesterday, I turned off my skimmer, and treating the tank with Herbtana


Feed your fish and make sure they're not stressed (due to poor water conditions). And they'll fight it off themselves

I dipped the krill and brine with Seachem garlic guard, every other fish except the puffers ate. Right now, it looks like its affecting the puffers the most.

MarkoD
01-06-2012, 04:18 PM
Maybe test your water and try and figure out what's stressing the fish. Do a water change as well maybe.

Sumfingwong
01-06-2012, 04:51 PM
Maybe test your water and try and figure out what's stressing the fish. Do a water change as well maybe.

I'll run tests tonight. Last I checked over the long weekend:

ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: 0

pH: 8.2 to 8.4 (last night)

I recently dosed the tank, would like to not do a WC unless I have to. I want to see if Herbtana works or not.

Coralgurl
01-06-2012, 05:02 PM
I would research how each of your fish will respond to copper if you decide to use this method. Some fish can not handle it and it will kill them. I had an outbreak a few months ago, set up a hospital tank and stressed the fish moving them over, lost my 2 clowns within hours. Out of 7 fish that went into the hospital, 2 made it back in the DT, 1 ended up with a fungus and died within a week. I made the decision not to qt anymore fish and slowly restocked my tank. One of the last fish I added came with ich. I have been adding selcon and garlic to their food and they are all fine. I panicked when I realized the fish had it again, there's one fish that still has visible signs of a couple of spots, otherwise the others are fine, no flashing.

Good luck, I hope they all pull through regardless of what you decide.

globaldesigns
01-06-2012, 06:43 PM
Just feed properly and make sure the environment is in good shape with proper parameters. Fish can survive ICH, as long as they are healthy.

Daniella knows her stuff when it comes to quaranting, so if you choose this method, listen to her advise.

I myself am a believer that you don't need to quarantine, but just my choice, and I haven't seen ICH in my tank for over 3 years. I think, the purchasing of the fish, stresses them, quarantining stresses them... Catching them from the DT stresses them, so if they have ICH and may be weak, why make it worse by stressing them more?

lockrookie
01-06-2012, 06:50 PM
ive used a product called rid ich that is reef safe ..did wonders for me (as long as you follow the instructions) i under dosed the first time. havent had it since

Sumfingwong
01-06-2012, 07:17 PM
I would research how each of your fish will respond to copper if you decide to use this method. Some fish can not handle it and it will kill them. I had an outbreak a few months ago, set up a hospital tank and stressed the fish moving them over, lost my 2 clowns within hours. Out of 7 fish that went into the hospital, 2 made it back in the DT, 1 ended up with a fungus and died within a week. I made the decision not to qt anymore fish and slowly restocked my tank. One of the last fish I added came with ich. I have been adding selcon and garlic to their food and they are all fine. I panicked when I realized the fish had it again, there's one fish that still has visible signs of a couple of spots, otherwise the others are fine, no flashing.

Good luck, I hope they all pull through regardless of what you decide.

Thanks Coralgurl, I hope they pull through as well. I read on some puffer forums cupramine works pretty well. However, I dont want to treat this in my DT. I will try the Herbtana and UV for now.

Just feed properly and make sure the environment is in good shape with proper parameters. Fish can survive ICH, as long as they are healthy.

Daniella knows her stuff when it comes to quaranting, so if you choose this method, listen to her advise.

I myself am a believer that you don't need to quarantine, but just my choice, and I haven't seen ICH in my tank for over 3 years. I think, the purchasing of the fish, stresses them, quarantining stresses them... Catching them from the DT stresses them, so if they have ICH and may be weak, why make it worse by stressing them more?

I agree, thats why I am trying to treat the DT with Herbtana, and I just picked up a submersible 13W UV sterilizer from Golds. I wanted to grab something quick, and I saw a video on youtube with someone using a 9W on his 120 with good results.

As for my tank, the skimmer is off at the moment while i treat the tank, I also took out a bag of carbon and turned off the pump feeding the phosban reactor (carbon and GFO)

The first night, the puffers was excited to eat, the second night (last night) they didnt pay attention to the food I put in (I used garlic guard yesterday). I will see what happens today.


I will keep everybody updated on the progress. I hope they pull through as well.



ive used a product called rid ich that is reef safe ..did wonders for me (as long as you follow the instructions) i under dosed the first time. havent had it since

Hey lockrookie, where did you get this product? I will stick with Herbtana for now. If by the end of the treatment doesnt work, I will do a big waterchange and try another reefsafe approach

lockrookie
01-06-2012, 07:18 PM
just got it at my local fish store

shootingstar
01-06-2012, 07:31 PM
To answer the question you originally asked.

YES, a DT left fallow (without any fish) for 8 weeks will be generally considered ich free.

Ich is a fish parasite, having fish present is essential for ich to survive and reproduce. If there are no fish in the tank the Ich will die off.

Treat the fish (with whatever method you decide) in another tank and return them to the DT after the 8 week fallow period.
or
Don't treat and use food environmental factors to make them strong enough to fight off the infection that will remain.

Reefer Rob
01-06-2012, 08:22 PM
Treat the fish (with whatever method you decide) in another tank and return them to the DT after the 8 week fallow period.
or
Don't treat and use food environmental factors to make them strong enough to fight off the infection that will remain.

That pretty much sums it up, but I think a fallow period of 5 weeks should be long enough. You'd have to be pretty unlucky to get a strain of Cryptocaryon that has a Tomont stage of longer than even 3 weeks at 26C.

Remember, once you go down the QT path, EVERYTHING that goes in your tank has to be QTed. That includes the frags you get from your buddy's, macro algae, etc. I only used to QT corals for 2 weeks, but even that was stressful... for me and the corals.

Sumfingwong
01-06-2012, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the suggestions all, I think moving the fish right now will stress them out too much. I will try my best to treat them in the DT with Herbtana, better food, and a UV sterilizer. My last resort will be fishing them all out of the DT and QT them.

I will no more when I get home and see the state of the tank :(

Gripenfelter
01-06-2012, 08:59 PM
None of the reef safe treatments work in my opinion. I've tried them all and nothing worked. The only thing that works 100% is to set up a quarantine tank and dose with copper.

I did eventually rid my tank of ich but it was from installing a UV sterilizer. As soon as I installed it I saw the ich breakouts decline. Doesn't cure ich on your fish. Decreases or eliminates future breakouts. Currently ich free.

Sumfingwong
01-06-2012, 09:39 PM
None of the reef safe treatments work in my opinion. I've tried them all and nothing worked. The only thing that works 100% is to set up a quarantine tank and dose with copper.

I did eventually rid my tank of ich but it was from installing a UV sterilizer. As soon as I installed it I saw the ich breakouts decline. Doesn't cure ich on your fish. Decreases or eliminates future breakouts. Currently ich free.

Well.. I hope the UV sterilizer does its job.

Sumfingwong
01-08-2012, 01:37 AM
Heres a small update.

I cam home yesterday to find the ich gone from most of the fish, puffers looked better, the dogface puffer still had ich on him.All fish ate except the puffers (Again)

I added the UV, and dosed the tank again for Day 2 of treatment.

This morning, I woke up and went to check on the tank, fish looked good, all of them ate (havent fed the puffers yet). I added day herbtana for day 3 of treatment. Most of the ich is gone, I still see some on the foxface. both puffers are out more swimming around. The pocupine doesnt have that much ich on him anymore. I will be defrosting some krill and brine and will be soaking it with garlic guard.

I dont know if its the ich running its course, but it seems like herbtana is working. A promising sign is that most of the fish I have that sleep on the sand is showing improvement and the ich has fallen off their body. Even the guys in the sump are looking better.

daniella3d
01-08-2012, 02:34 AM
Yes it will die off without a fish host (any fish) so leaving it without any fish for 6 weeks at least, better 8 weeks will assure that the ick is gone from your tank. The ick will not be able to live out of your cleaning crew, only on fish.

Thanks Daniella, my original question was if it was ok to leave the DT with the CuC and corals alone (not treating the DT) Will the ich eventually die off in a tank with no hosts?

daniella3d
01-08-2012, 02:41 AM
It has been proven that ick can survive up to 70 days so why go to all the trouble to do this treatment only to put them back in the tank and recontaminate them if it is not gone? 8 week might be a little extreme but I would wait at least 6 weeks if the fish can live in quarantine without being too stressed and if they eat well.

If anyone is not going to quarantine their fish, at least they should always do a one hour dip in Seachem Paraguard. This one hour dip would probably get most of the parasites off. This is really important with clownfish as Paraguard will kill brooklynella so the dip might catch all the parasites before they even enter the tank.

That pretty much sums it up, but I think a fallow period of 5 weeks should be long enough. You'd have to be pretty unlucky to get a strain of Cryptocaryon that has a Tomont stage of longer than even 3 weeks at 26C.

Remember, once you go down the QT path, EVERYTHING that goes in your tank has to be QTed. That includes the frags you get from your buddy's, macro algae, etc. I only used to QT corals for 2 weeks, but even that was stressful... for me and the corals.

Reefer Rob
01-08-2012, 02:53 AM
Most Ick cycles seem to be between 4 to 10 days from what I've seen in my tanks. It's about managing risk, as I say, you would be unlucky indeed to get a strain that has a 70 day cycle. You need to keep reef keeping fun :wink: Quarantining everything that goes into your tank including corals for 8 weeks would be a PTA, as well as a strain in the animals.

daniella3d
01-08-2012, 03:15 AM
I don't see how doing a quarantine on fish can be any more strain to the animals than being taken out of the ocean and put in a small box. An aquarium is an aquarium no matter what and if the water quality in the quarantine tank is top notch and the quarantine is set up right than there is no stress at all. I currently have 3 fish in my 21 gallons, one cleaner wrasse and 2 black ice clownfish. There is liverock in there and hiding places and everybody is doing great.

They are receiving a Paraguard treatment to eliminate the possibility of ick and brook and everybody is eating like little pigs 3 to 5 times per day. They have been there for 10 days now and will be there another 3 weeks in treatment, then in the display.

I did quarantine on sensitive fish like the copperband butterfly for a month in that 21 gallons and the fish was not in very good health when I got it. Now it's doing great one year later. If I can do it, anyone can, it's just a matter of setting this properly and the fish are not stressed at all. Why would they be more stressed in the quarantine tank alone and in peace rather then being dumped in the DT with other possible territorial fish chasing them around and making their life a nightmare? Quarantine is a time for a fish to recover, get fat and healthy, alone and in peace, not being harrassed by any other fish.

Most Ick cycles seem to be between 4 to 10 days from what I've seen in my tanks. It's about managing risk, as I say, you would be unlucky indeed to get a strain that has a 70 day cycle. You need to keep reef keeping fun :wink: Quarantining everything that goes into your tank including corals for 8 weeks would be a PTA, as well as a strain in the animals.

naesco
01-08-2012, 04:12 AM
As of yesterday, I turned off my skimmer, and treating the tank with Herbtana




I dipped the krill and brine with Seachem garlic guard, every other fish except the puffers ate. Right now, it looks like its affecting the puffers the most.

Dipping is not going to do it. You need to soak dry food in garlic extract or Garlic Extreme (I do not know about garlic guard). You need to feed very often and only garlic soaked foods.
The idea is to get as much garlic in the fish as possible.
Don't know about Herbtana. What are the listed ingredients?

Sumfingwong
01-08-2012, 05:18 AM
Dipping is not going to do it. You need to soak dry food in garlic extract or Garlic Extreme (I do not know about garlic guard). You need to feed very often and only garlic soaked foods.
The idea is to get as much garlic in the fish as possible.
Don't know about Herbtana. What are the listed ingredients?

Sorry, I worded it wrong.. I soaked the food into Seachem Garlic Guard.

I do have some good news. The dogface who looked the worst yesterday looks a lot better, he ate some krill today. The only one not eating is the porcupine puffer. I am hoping he will come around tomorrow, he is active though, he keeps to the back left corner of the tank surfing the glass.

As for herbtana's ingredients, I will have to check later and get back to you.

I do have a question. the fox face looks like he has this white see through slimy thing hanging off of the dorsal fin. It also looks like it has a white dot on the slimy substance. After that, I saw some of this slimy see through stuff in the water column, so I took a net and scooped it out. What is this stuff? a by product of ich?

Gripenfelter
01-09-2012, 01:55 PM
If you have Selcon I would soak the food in that too.

Sumfingwong
01-09-2012, 02:09 PM
If you have Selcon I would soak the food in that too.

I will be grabbing that today, I didnt leave the house over the weekend.

But im happy to report everybody is eating now. There are still some signs of ich on the porcupine, but he started eating last night (garlic soaked krill) Everybody else looks good. I am hoping to finish this 10 day treatment asap, because I really want to turn on the skimmer lol

I also did a 10 gallon water change last night.

Sumfingwong
01-09-2012, 02:32 PM
double post. pls delete

daniella3d
01-12-2012, 06:38 AM
Look at it with a microscope. could be marine velvet or brooklynella. This is looking less and less like ich.

I do have a question. the fox face looks like he has this white see through slimy thing hanging off of the dorsal fin. It also looks like it has a white dot on the slimy substance. After that, I saw some of this slimy see through stuff in the water column, so I took a net and scooped it out. What is this stuff? a by product of ich?