Wavebox, good or bad?

[Aquattro]

I keep thinking of installing a wave box in my 180, but I just have an uncomfortable fear that the stress of the rocking is bad, which might result in a broken tank. Pretty sure I've seen it happen before.

For those that run them on bigger tanks, how long have they been running, and have you had any issues or concerns (tank stress, stand shifting, etc)?

[Casey8]

As I have been doing research for my tank, I have read it somewhere that the wavebox will reduce life of your tank because its stressing your silicone tank back and forth with waves. But you can reduce the waves by lowering your box or even just let the box sit at the bottom of the tank.

[lpsreefer]

I run two on my 6 foot tank for over a year now. No problems. Yet.

[Aquattro]

As I have been doing research for my tank, I have read it somewhere that the wavebox will reduce life of your tank because its stressing your silicone tank back and forth with waves. But you can reduce the waves by lowering your box or even just let the box sit at the bottom of the tank.

Kinda my concern, right there. Reduce life by how much? Should I start buying a lot of mops and a spare 180? :razz:

[Casey8]

Every web site I have read it says will reduce about 1/3 some said 1/4 life of your tank ... whatever ... I want to get one for myself in the future anyway. Just don't make it over half inch waves, I think my tank will be OK for another 8 years. I don't want to look my fish are dancing back and forth with waves, it makes me dizzy just to look at the fish from some other people's tank.

[Mrfish55]

I ran one for 3 years on my 300 with no I'll effects but it did break down 3 times, finally gave up and replaced it with a pair of MP 40 s I did like the wave effect on the corals and there was no dead spots in the tank but for the money mine was a POS and I will not replace it.

[Aquattro]

All I'm trying to do is get a more even flow. I have 4 Tunze in the tank, but they're all at the top, and I get a lot of detritus settling on my rock work. I could turkey baste the rock every 6 hours, so figured some more random flow, not top down, might help that. I have a sequence that I can program into my Apex that will apparently give me the waves without the box, but again, I'm concerned with tank integrity.

[Mrfish55]

Big tanks are usually overbuilt, I never had any concerns about tank integrity and I have never heard of a tank failure that could be directly related to the use of a wave box, I have seen surge units in use that looked far more severe than a wave box and those tanks never had an issue as well.

[Borderjumper]

I loved mine..Without it the detritus settles on the rock tons more than it did with the wave box.. BUT as you know, for some reason the bottom of that tank cracked. The Seastar guy found nothing wrong with the tank, or the stand.

I don't know if the wave box had anything to do with it.. But in my mind it may have.

[Aquattro]

Shelley, yours is the one that put the fear in me :)

[Casey8]

I loved mine..Without it the detritus settles on the rock tons more than it did with the wave box.. BUT as you know, for some reason the bottom of that tank cracked. The Seastar guy found nothing wrong with the tank, or the stand.

I don't know if the wave box had anything to do with it.. But in my mind it may have.


Now you scare me :cry:

[Aquattro]

Big tanks are usually overbuilt, I never had any concerns about tank integrity and I have never heard of a tank failure that could be directly related to the use of a wave box, I have seen surge units in use that looked far more severe than a wave box and those tanks never had an issue as well.

I agree, although I bought mine used and re-sealed it myself, so I'm lacking a bit of confidence in it :razz:
Realistically, I think the tank is ok, and I know the stand won't shift, but....

I do need to do something to generate more of an up swell in the flow though, and I think a wave might do it.

[fkshiu]

I had one for several years without issue.

Roger Vitko has answered this question a number of times over one RC. Something to the effect that your standard commercially-built aquarium is meant for about 15 - 20 years of use and running a wavebox 24/7 is expected to knock a couple of years off that life expectancy.

You can hook up a photocell to the wavebox and not have it running at night to reduce the wear and tear if your worried.

[Aquattro]

Franklin, thanks! I'm going to add a wave with my existing streams and see what I think..

[lastlight]

Yep Roger claims 10% reduction and nobody is going to say they know this for a fact. It can't help the tank's strength of course but I suspect we'd all replace or upgrade long before things would fail assuming the tank's properly built.

Having said that... I have been considering them myself and also am a bit scared. A 1" wave in a 400g is a ton of weight shifting around!

[Aquattro]

Having said that... I have been considering them myself and also am a bit scared. A 1" wave in a 400g is a ton of weight shifting around!

Actually, a couple of tons :)

Like I said, I have a program for the Apex that will give me a wave, so I'll set that up this coming week and see what I think. Right now I have too much gunk settling out on the rock work, so I'm hoping this does the trick without blowing the tank :razz:

[Borderjumper]

Shelley, yours is the one that put the fear in me :)
I know.. :sad:

[lastlight]

Actually, a couple of tons :)

Like I said, I have a program for the Apex that will give me a wave, so I'll set that up this coming week and see what I think. Right now I have too much gunk settling out on the rock work, so I'm hoping this does the trick without blowing the tank :razz:

I've sorta gone with the turkey baster for now. Saves me a couple tons of cash and is easier on the seams lol.

[reefermadness]

Ive had mine for over 2 yrs now no issue. I love it. Only cleaned it once so far and never a problem.

I still do the turkey baster thing once a week.

[Aquattro]

The thing with the turkey baster is I can do it every hour almost. I set the new profiles for the Tunzes just before midnight last night, and even at the dusk/dawn setting, I had a small wave going in the tank, but midnight switches to steady easy flow. I'll have to make sure I'm home today when the 100% flow wave setting kicks in, just to make sure the water stays in the tank.

[KevinK]

Brad,

now I dont know, but would it be a thing to put 2 pumps about 6 inches from your sand, and than put them on at least a 40 to 60 degree angle upwards,

I'm planning for my new tank as well, and as you know it would be in the 350 to 500 gal range, and proubably build out of epoxy, but still,

I was thinking of putting 3 low pointing up, and 3 ore 4 random (one left, one right and 2 from the back to front.

but maybe the upwards stream will give you more flow, without the shifting

[monocus]

been running my wave box for 5 years on my 220.no problems at all.you can see the sea snow move around the tank.i picked mine up on e-bay for $220 from waterkei.outflow head is sitting about 10 inches below the surface and it is hidden by rockwork.it might be the reason i can keep carnations and seafans for years-with them spreading

[Aquattro]

Brad,

now I dont know, but would it be a thing to put 2 pumps about 6 inches from your sand, and than put them on at least a 40 to 60 degree angle upwards,



Kevin, absolutely. The problem with the Tunze mounts on the older pumps I have, is that you can't aim them up or down. The new one work that way, but unless I find some really cheap, I can't upgrade.
I am thinking of adding a couple of maxijets in the back pointing up on an angle, I'm just waiting to see what the flow looks like when the new sequence kicks in at 1:30. Right now I have a nice wave, at only 0-30%. At 1:30, it jumps to 100%, so I'll be standing by with a mop :)
But yes, flow from the bottom up will help remove the "fluff"

[Aquattro]

you can see the sea snow move around the tank

Which is what I'm trying to do, right now it all settles out and looks like crap.

[Aquattro]

Ok, update. Surf's up in the tank, but it's not going over the edges. My old Tunze 6100 with the failing clip finally broke loose with the action, so I've re-arranged my sand a bit (a lot). Zap straps to the rescue, it's good for another 10 years. :) Let's hope this new wave doesn't break anything.

For those with Tunze and Apex controllers, it's pretty easy to get a wave without the box.

[Casey8]

What type of Apex controller is the cheapest can I get for my Tunzes ?

[Aquattro]

What type of Apex controller is the cheapest can I get for my Tunzes ?

No idea. Check J&L site for their options.

[Delphinus]

I think you can get unlucky with a tank with or without a wavebox. Honestly I think if a wb pushes things over the edge then there was a latent flaw to begin with. A 10% reduction in lifespan is a WAG at best. So 1 year out of 10 ... But who has a tank longer than 5 years anyhow n very few.

I was worried at first with my tank because I heard stories of plants leaves wiggling when left on the tank, but on my tank with 2 there was absolutely no movement to the glass from the wave.

What you do need to watch out for is the overflow height from the top of the tanks. A tank with wb should have a lower overflow.

My $0.02 anyhow.

[Aquattro]

Tony, there doesn't appear to be any movement at all, so not as worried as I was yesterday. My overflow is a foot long, centered on the back wall, so it's working perfectly. The wave is more a meet in the middle rather than end to end wave.
Problem now, the Tunze keeps squeaking randomly....:cry:

[KevinK]

Ok, update. Surf's up in the tank, but it's not going over the edges. My old Tunze 6100 with the failing clip finally broke loose with the action, so I've re-arranged my sand a bit (a lot). Zap straps to the rescue, it's good for another 10 years. :) Let's hope this new wave doesn't break anything.

For those with Tunze and Apex controllers, it's pretty easy to get a wave without the box.

brad, i have a old clip for the 6105, if you need it, i have no use for it

[StirCrazy]

Tony, there doesn't appear to be any movement at all, so not as worried as I was yesterday. My overflow is a foot long, centered on the back wall, so it's working perfectly. The wave is more a meet in the middle rather than end to end wave.
Problem now, the Tunze keeps squeaking randomly....:cry:

did you build the stand?

Steve

[Casey8]

did you build the stand?

Steve


Don't scare him, or he will be tearing his tank apart to put the new stand in before New Year.

[Aquattro]

brad, i have a old clip for the 6105, if you need it, i have no use for it

Thanks Kevin, but it's the pump housing, not the clip. I bought new ones last year, and they work ok, but with the thrashing of the new profile, they don't hold.

[Aquattro]

did you build the stand?

Steve

Do you have a tank yet??

[StirCrazy]

Do you have a tank yet??

I have three tanks, make that 4.. now answer the question :mrgreen:

for the record I don't like the idea of water sloshing back and forth in a tank. if you figure 1 gal of salt water weighs about 9lbs plus the kentitic energy it has in its motion, thats a lot of cycling force in the tank and a cycling force will destroy things faster than a constant force.

Steve

[Delphinus]

Problem now, the Tunze keeps squeaking randomly....:cry:

Driver alarm? Or propeller friction?

I have two spare propellers - magnet, bushing, propellers and even the little orange o-ring - from old streams I don't have anymore (well, I have one 6080 for mixing SW). I can put one or both in the mail if you want ..

[StirCrazy]

Don't scare him, or he will be tearing his tank apart to put the new stand in before New Year.

naa were probably safe no wires involved in building a stand :wink:

Steve

[Aquattro]

Driver alarm? Or propeller friction?

I have two spare propellers - magnet, bushing, propellers and even the little orange o-ring - from old streams I don't have anymore (well, I have one 6080 for mixing SW). I can put one or both in the mail if you want ..

It's driver alarm, almost. Just starts squeaking, then stops. Over and over. Pump is running fine, took it apart to see if it needed cleaning, but nothing in there is dirty. Dunno, might be time to replace the old pumps :)

[Parker]

Got one in my 265, love it. If the tank breaks I'm calling my insurance company and they can buy me a new one. :)

[Delphinus]

I had this problem. Darn it, now I don't remember what the problem was though. Have you read through this thread yet over at RC? http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1071516&

I think I ended up having to retire the most troublesome stream which is how I ended up with one of the spare propellers. The other spare propeller came from my other 6080 which was mounted on a wavysea and the back and forth movement caused the powercord to rub its insulation off the wire. The propellers from the two units look identical.

[christyf5]

love my wavebox. 3 years in my 90gal, almost 2 in my 180 :biggrin:

I'm plugging my ears and doing the "lalala" thing about the reduction in tank life though. My used tank has an unknown number of years on it and I shudder at the thought of having to take it down in the next 5 or so years (although the 15-20 years tank life talk was encouraging, I thought it was much less).

[sphelps]

If it helps I can assure you silicone is not effected by mechanical cyclic loading so it's immune to fatigue type failures in most cases such as aquariums. The only fatigue issues with silicone are related more to electronics which have thermal cyclic loading. In addition even if fatigue failure was possible the amplitude from the cyclic loading is actually very small, the pressure from the wave is only fluctuating a few inches in comparison to the total pressure of 20+ or so, so it's not even close to something that would raise fatigue concerns anyway. Fatigue issues relate more from reverse cyclic loading where the load reverses direction created an a total amplitude greater than the actual static load (similar to why bolts are always preloaded).

The simple fact is fatigue failure is completely impossible from a wave box and it's a bunch of BS and like most stuff on the web is just spread by a bunch of people who know very little about the subject.

[ALang]

OK. I can breathe now.

[Skimmerking]

There you go Brad stop you whining and get that wave box going :mrgreen: oh ya we need pictures of that thingy too. and try it with out the box i did for a bit with mine in the 150 and it worked pretty good. Its like a fat MP40:razz:

[lastlight]

The simple fact is fatigue failure is completely impossible from a wave box and it's a bunch of BS and like most stuff on the web is just spread by a bunch of people who know very little about the subject.

Including Tunze apparently! Maybe their warning is more to do with liabilities and a 'just in case' ?

[christyf5]

Including Tunze apparently! Maybe their warning is more to do with liabilities and a 'just in case' ?

I would imagine they're covering all their bases.

[sphelps]

I would imagine they're covering all their bases.

Yeap it's just politics

[fishytime]

still could cause the stand to fatigue and fail:wink:

[Aquattro]

still could cause the stand to fatigue and fail:wink:
I think this would be the biggest contributor. Either failure, or shifting. My stand is pretty solid, so I think I'm good.

[Casey8]

OK. I can breathe now.


No, we can't breathe yet if you read what fishytime just had said.

[Aquattro]

No, we can't breathe yet if you read what fishytime just had said.

Just breathe very softly. Borderjumper's tank, IMO, broke from the wavemaker causing shifting in the tank and/or stand. The bottom split out corner to corner. Messy ****e.....

[fishytime]

The simple fact is fatigue failure is completely impossible from a wave box and it's a bunch of BS and like most stuff on the web is just spread by a bunch of people who know very little about the subject.

I appreciate the fact that you are educated (engineer I think?).....but could you explain it in terms that the AVERAGE person can understand.......I mean I just cant see how 2000lbs of water shifting back and forth in a glass box doesnt fatigue the tank in any way????......school me please:mrgreen:

[Casey8]

Just breathe very softly. Borderjumper's tank, IMO, broke from the wavemaker causing shifting in the tank and/or stand. The bottom split out corner to corner. Messy ****e.....


Gooosh ... :cry: I should not have read your thread

[MKLKT]

I appreciate the fact that you are educated (engineer I think?).....but could you explain it in terms that the AVERAGE person can understand.......I mean I just cant see how 2000lbs of water shifting back and forth in a glass box doesnt fatigue the tank in any way????......school me please:mrgreen:

Well even the cheapo silicone I used on an ATO before was rated at something like 190psi of strength so if you take that surface area across the whole tank you can see how its strength exceeds the weight of the tank contents. Like it was stated a little earlier the weakness would likely come from the tank being on a cheap stand (pressboard, etc.) since your tank's centre of gravity would be prime for folding the stand like a house of cards.

[Delphinus]

I just cant see how 2000lbs of water shifting back and forth in a glass box doesnt fatigue the tank in any way????


If I understand things correctly (which I might not :) ) .... I think the difference is that it's not the full 2000lbs of water shifting back and forth. The tank is already under load from that 2000lbs, and that in turn is shifting by 1" vertically spread apart the length of the tank (so 4', 6', 8' ... whatever). So the left side probably has to vary from 1900lbs to 2100lbs and the right side from 2100lbs to 1900lbs. If that causes the tank to fail then the tank things were well outside the margin of safety to begin with.

Further, if I understood Steve correctly, the silicone can handle a mechanical shifting load better than it could from going from hot to cold. This makes sense to me on an intuitive level, silicone has some elasticity to it and its adherence to glass (due to the silicone seeping into the pores of the glass itself) is inherently very strong.

A stand that is not properly supporting the weight of the tank is a different matter. And that could cause a tank to fail regardless, wavebox or not.

Here's how I look at it: Do I worry about a tank blowout? Emphatically yes, it scares the bejeebus out of me, like I'm sure it would any hobbyist. Would I worry any less if I took my wavebox out? Not whatsoever. I'd worry all the same.

[lastlight]

Good point I agree! I worry more about my wallet than the tank tho!