Outraged!!!

[jtbadco]

Hey Gang,...get this. One of our LFS owners (SWC) has been convicted of illegal smuggling of corals, inverts, and LR.


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...135339543.html (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/breakingnews/Winnipeg-man-convicted-of-smuggling--135339543.html)

This person is unfortunately one of the sponsors of our local forum and we are trying to have him removed.

We tried posting our opinions on our local forum but as usual the monkeys that run it shut down any conversation that isn't about kittens and sunshine. One of the other members there actually had the nerve to say that we shouldn't pass judgement because everyone breaks the law a little?!? As if going 5 miles over the speed limit compares to raping the environment. I would never say that I am a perfect law abiding citizen, but if I get caught speeding, I pay the ticket.

As far as I'm concerned they should throw the book at him. Maybe a $1M fine and a couple years in jail will teach him a lesson. If we tolerate operators like him it will eventually destroy the hobby.

[Myka]

This is old news. This happened in 2007. He basically didn't get his CITES permits in place for import which is then considered smuggling. I see he was finally convicted...that took forever.

[jtbadco]

He was caught in 2007. He was convicted last week. He will be sentenced later this year.

My main objection is that he is allowed to stay in business.

[fishytime]

not surprising......have heard of others

[Myka]

...have heard of others

Heh, yep.

I really should quit suggesting that people buy SWC skimmers though. I feel torn. They are a good skimmer for the price, and I like people to be able to afford their hobby and still have success, but then I don't like it when people operate illegally because it damages our hobby. Now that he has actually been convicted I just decided...no more SWC compliments from me.

[jtbadco]

I've heard of it before too. Just never with a local store

[Zoaelite]

Daeninck fought his case at trial, claiming he had actually ordered another type of rock which didn’t contain coral for the purpose of building a fence in Winnipeg, like one he’d seen on a visit to Indonesia. Daeninck claimed there must have been a mistake in the order and that he wasn’t responsible.

Wooowww, real good excuse on that one! Seems totally logical to import 20000lbs of rock from across the world when you live next to a burnco... DERPPPPP.

[jtbadco]

I know,...how stupid does he think people are?

[Casey8]

Thanks for this posting, I HATE smugglers :twised: I was thinking of buying a used/new SCW skimmer, but now this one is definetely is off my list.

[lastlight]

How did I miss this?!

And this is the same guy that was told to stop selling his stolen aiptasia zapper idea? Ouch.

[The Grizz]

Boy don't I feel quilty now, I have a zapper & a skimmer from SWS :redface:

[Casey8]

Boy don't I feel quilty now, I have a zapper & a skimmer from SWS :redface:


:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

[fishytime]

Boy don't I feel quilty now, I have a zapper & a skimmer from SWS :redface:

for shame Greg.....you enabler you:razz::mrgreen:

[The Grizz]

for shame Greg.....you enabler you:razz::mrgreen:

Honestly if I had any idea of this I would not have purchased either of them.

[lastlight]

Boy don't I feel quilty now, I have a zapper & a skimmer from SWS :redface:

Smalltime. I want some of his fencing!

[The Grizz]

Smalltime. I want some of his fencing!

:noidea:

[lastlight]

His 20,000 lb 'fence' made of liverock and rare corals?

Keep up Greg c'mon!

[mikejrice]

Wow!

Michael Rice
Marine Engineers Aquarium Blog
Sent from Tapatalk so excuse my poor English

[The Grizz]

His 20,000 lb 'fence' made of liverock and rare corals?

Keep up Greg c'mon!

Oh man, I just can't keep up with some of the goings on, maybe Brett you need to e-mail the days highlights of the SW world daily so I can be in the know :wink:

[lastlight]

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...135339543.html (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/breakingnews/Winnipeg-man-convicted-of-smuggling--135339543.html)

There ya go bro =) Post #1 :mrgreen:

[The Grizz]

Gee thanks. :razz:

[Delphinus]

Well I feel really bad, torn and conflicted myself. I used to think of Jayson as a great mentor and friend in my early days in this hobby. Much I want to say here but will limit what I will say because of the public nature of forums.

I wish Jayson all the best luck going forward ... it sounds like he will need it. :(

Publicity like this is a huge black eye to the hobby. Never mind eventually destroy it ... the damage is well underway and there are times I fear the writing is on the wall. The next ten years will be nothing like the previous ten years. Realistically this is only one nail in the coffin, there is so much more at play as well.


Hey Gang,...get this. One of our LFS owners (SWC) has been convicted of illegal smuggling of corals, inverts, and LR.


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...135339543.html (http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/breakingnews/Winnipeg-man-convicted-of-smuggling--135339543.html)

This person is unfortunately one of the sponsors of our local forum and we are trying to have him removed.

We tried posting our opinions on our local forum but as usual the monkeys that run it shut down any conversation that isn't about kittens and sunshine. One of the other members there actually had the nerve to say that we shouldn't pass judgement because everyone breaks the law a little?!? As if going 5 miles over the speed limit compares to raping the environment. I would never say that I am a perfect law abiding citizen, but if I get caught speeding, I pay the ticket.

As far as I'm concerned they should throw the book at him. Maybe a $1M fine and a couple years in jail will teach him a lesson. If we tolerate operators like him it will eventually destroy the hobby.

[wickedfrags]

considering how easy it is to get CITES permits, had to believe it is worth the risk...greedy

[MarkoD]

Now I know why he was so grumpy when I contacted him in regards to having something covered under warranty. He gave me the worst customer service I've ever experienced and didn't help me at all.

[fishoholic]

Now I know why he was so grumpy when I contacted him in regards to having something covered under warranty. He gave me the worst customer service I've ever experienced and didn't help me at all.

I know what you mean. I had pump issues and he was being very vague and unhelpful which surprised me because a couple of years ago he gave great customer service. However I now understand why.

[lastlight]

considering how easy it is to get CITES permits, had to believe it is worth the risk...greedy

I think he was trying to bypass the much more involved CITIES permit :neutral:

[BlueTang<3]

I think he was trying to bypass the much more involved CITIES permit :neutral:

Probably more like trying to avoid the cost of the cities.

[Myka]

I had no idea that this was still ongoing. I knew about it in 2007 when he was charged, but never heard anything afterwards so I actually thought the charges were dropped. I can't believe it took so long to get a conviction.

Grizz...I'm also glaring at my two SWC skimmers now. Too bad I can't afford to replace them right now or I would smash them. :twised: If anyone wants to donate to replace my SWC 180 cone I will happily smash it. Maybe Mike could help me get an AK to shoot it with! Oh, or maybe a bazooka! BOY would that be fun!

[Leah]

Okay he did what he did. But if he was selling the stuff for a bit cheaper, I wonder how many of us would have bought it and happily put it in our tanks.

[mark]

I can understand being offended with what he's done, smashing anything with SWC on the side a bit much.

[jtbadco]

I am all about good deals in what can be a pricey hobby,....but I would never knowingly buy from someone like him.

[Myka]

I can understand being offended with what he's done, smashing anything with SWC on the side a bit much.

Why? It's not likely there is going to be any customer service or warranty on them anymore. :lol:

[Parker]

Smashing what he's already received payment for (and what you paid for) proves nothing. You're just wasting your own money. I guess if it makes you feel better, but I've never felt great after throwing several hundred dollars in the trash can for no good reason.

[jtbadco]

I don't think anyone is really going to buy a bazooka and shoot their skimmer.
I'm pretty sure they are just voicing their disapproval :)

[Judy Waytiuk]

I had suggested the Aquarium Society, which runs the WFF now, issue a public statement (i.e. to the media) decrying the actions of the Fish Forum member (and that should be corrected immediately IMO) and noting that responsible hobbyists are disgusted by this sort of thing.
He didn't just import plants without a permit-- he imported endangered species for which you cannot get a permit.. and in sufficient volume that you have to know he was not just selling it locally through his little shop. And more than once. He was convicted on 18 counts, so I think it must not have been just the 2007 incident. They went his files and found evidence of many more such imports.
This would have been an opportunity for the Winnipeg aquarist community to distance itself from this guy and to provide a little bit of education to the public about how to have a tank that does not rape the environment.
I don't know what's going to happen with that suggestion.
But at the very least, I do hope Winnipeg hobbyists put him out of business by drying up his customer base. Thing is, how do you dry up his online business?

[jorjef]

Okay he did what he did. But if he was selling the stuff for a bit cheaper, I wonder how many of us would have bought it and happily put it in our tanks.

Probably almost every single one of us! Knowing it was obtained illegally would drop a few out...If all he needed was a permit what would the advantage be to him not to get one? are they overly expensive? would he be not allowed to import as much? just curious because I have no idea what would have driven him to take such a risk?

I hate to say it but again we all sit here as "holier than thou" and condemn him as we sit and admire our pretty tanks. If it was as simple as "paying" the government for a permit this guy is guilty of being an idiot BUT we would have been enjoying the rock as we speak if he did. But no he didn't go through the proper channels and now the sentence of this forum would be to stone him, drive him out of business, black list his name and products and feel much better for it.. as we walk back to have another look at our pretty little tanks....

[Skimmerking]

I had no idea that this was still ongoing. I knew about it in 2007 when he was charged, but never heard anything afterwards so I actually thought the charges were dropped. I can't believe it took so long to get a conviction.

Grizz...I'm also glaring at my two SWC skimmers now. Too bad I can't afford to replace them right now or I would smash them. :twised: If anyone wants to donate to replace my SWC 180 cone I will happily smash it. Maybe Mike could help me get an AK to shoot it with! Oh, or maybe a bazooka! BOY would that be fun!


Oh ya Myka the AK what one do you want
AK 47
AK 74
C-7 semi auto
C-6- medium full auto
C-9 light auto
C-3 sniper rifle
C-8 with the heavy barrel retrackable stock
M-72
84MM
Eryx
TOW missle:lol:


I think if you read this and look who its coming from, MYka AKA Mindy is playing around Come on she isnt going to smash her skimmers. she is joking. On another thought thou I have known Jayson since 2001 when I first got into the SALT WATER hobby. He is a great guy at first meeting him I told him in his hous. I know nothing what do I need should I buy this and this and this. NO Mike its not going to work you are wasting your money. what ABOut Lighting I want to grow this stuff I think. Jayson would take me over to his tan kand state this and that. OK. got it. NOw that Jayson is well under his way. Getting Cities really isnt a huge hassel. and I have been in his store when he receives massive shipments I mean Massive shipments. and this guy is well organize he has this and that. Im not defending him or anything what he does is his bussiness but seeing what he makes and what he sells if pretty decent. But to bring in 20,000 lbs of Rock and try to hide it on a well known flight that carriers that stuff in, not only to leave a 3rd world country ,but stop in the USA and switch flight and a load list thatis checked by customs, and then flies in to Canada to be stopped and then where is the Cities. where is the first Point of contact to check the paper work.

U can't assume that that type of paper work isn't going to be checked that is crazy. I have also heard that the cities thathe was suppose to have was infact done and the right weights of rock was too. it was for the wrong date. either way the guy had all the paper work in tact. wrong date come one that comes from the other end not here. But who has actually met Jayson in person. other then just talking to him on the phone.

[jtbadco]

Well, I've been to the store a few times and he was never friendly. Never offered assistance in the store. When I asked questions I got terse, 1 word answers, like he couldn't be bothered.

And the problem wasn't that he just didn't get permits or that they were for the wrong date. He brought in 20,000 lbs of rock that you cannot get permits for. And seahorses, and clams.....were they for his fence too?!?
It's all BS. He tried to cheat and he got caught. I'm sure there are lots of guys in prison who are really great guys once you get to know them.
Hahaha, get real.

[Skimmerking]

Well, I've been to the store a few times and he was never friendly. Never offered assistance in the store. When I asked questions I got terse, 1 word answers, like he couldn't be bothered.

And the problem wasn't that he just didn't get permits or that they were for the wrong date. He brought in 20,000 lbs of rock that you cannot get permits for. And seahorses, and clams.....were they for his fence too?!?
It's all BS. He tried to cheat and he got caught. I'm sure there are lots of guys in prison who are really great guys once you get to know them. HA, get real.

hmmmm was that last statement Get real for them or was that for me.:question:

[jtbadco]

It was really directed at a few things.

His whole BS story about the rock being for a fence. Your comments about him being nice and helpful in person. It's just a joke. I'm not saying he wasn't nice to you but that doesn't mitigate his actions.

[Skimmerking]

well its my opinion and so really you cant question my opinion if it was a fact yes jump all over it. may be its the thing that I spend crazy amounts of money there so may be that is why he is alright to me.. well on these boards its hard to tell when someone is either voicing a opinion , stating a fact or just being a AIR head.

[mark]

other thing that gets me on this was if he had actually gotten that permit, which I'm sure they do give, we all would just continuing happily buying the product.

In other words, we're all okay with the raping and pillaging the environment as long as the paper work is in order???

[Judy Waytiuk]

I met Jason a number of times...first, when he wildly overcharged me to re-silicon a leaking hex (I did not know any better at the time, it was the first tank I had that needed silicon repair), and had to re-do it twice (and I still had to go in and fix some spots!). Then, I used to drop into SWC to browse-- until I looked at prices and found they were way out of whack (high). I bought a couple of corals (not endangered, I never buy endangered, I research them first) and stopped buying when the corals I got from him would die, and similar corals I got from other shops (cheaper) to replace them flourished. I was glad I'd quit buying from him when I heard about the problem in 2007.
As soon as he realized I was not going to be spending a fortune in his shop, he became terse, even rude when I went in. I observed he was very charming, though, when he had a sucker on the hook who was happy to overspend ridiculous amounts of money for creatures (like the large clams) that would not survive in their tanks (I would overhear discussions about lighting-- he would be selling clams to people with T5HO lighting).
The last purchase I made was many, many months ago, meds I couldn't find anywhere else. As always, he was rude.
And a note of clarification: he did not simply import without proper permits. He imported huge amount of rock and species for which you cannot GET permits because they are endangered.
As for why he would do this? Money, money, money. This stuff sells for a LOT on the black market.

[Judy Waytiuk]

other thing that gets me on this was if he had actually gotten that permit, which I'm sure they do give, we all would just continuing happily buying the product.

In other words, we're all okay with the raping and pillaging the environment as long as the paper work is in order???

He imported endangered species for which you cannot get permits. The permit system is designed to prevent people from importing such species. If the paperwork is in order, the species is not endangered or threatened.

[jtbadco]

Moot point.... YOU CANNOT GET PERMITS FOR WHAT HE BROUGHT IN.

We all keep fish in glass boxes but I for one do not keep any endangered species. I think that by keeping fish as we do, we raise awareness and knowledge of these wonderful animals and by doing so we help to maintain these animals in the wild.

By rationalizing what he did we support the unscrupulous people who are willing to destroy the environment to line his pockets.

[jorjef]

other thing that gets me on this was if he had actually gotten that permit, which I'm sure they do give, we all would just continuing happily buying the product.

In other words, we're all okay with the raping and pillaging the environment as long as the paper work is in order???

I agree 100 percent, hypocrisy runs rampant in this hobby and it really makes me want to puke...I don't care how well you provide for your little fishies bottom line is the vast majority and in most cases ALL of our tanks live contents come from the wild. How can any tank owner trash talk the hobby knowing this? You have no idea what took place or how they were handled when the creatures of your tank were collected.

[jorjef]

He imported endangered species for which you cannot get permits. The permit system is designed to prevent people from importing such species. If the paperwork is in order, the species is not endangered or threatened.

This is a cut and paste from the news article, what are you talking about?

"The rare type of rock is protected because it contains coral. It can only be imported or exported if an international permit is obtained, which wasn’t done here."

It sounds like it was obtainable but he didn't get one

[jorjef]

We have two people from Winnipeg with less than 100 posts between them on here crucifying a Winnipeg business, sounds more personal than anything.

[jtbadco]

What the hell difference does it make how many posts we have on Canreef?!? Like the number of posts you have made makes your point more or less valid. Give your head a shake.

Fact- The guy broke the law. He should be punished.

Nothing personal at all....but if no one says anything about stuff like this then it continues. By not speaking out against it, you are condoning the behavior.

I don't know where my shoes were made either, but if I hear a company uses sweat shops, then I don't buy from them anymore.

To state that we shouldn't comment on this because we aren't intimately aware of the process of collection is retarded. By commenting on this we are making ourselves more aware of the process and by getting rid of greedy conmen we are making sure that those shady practices are not allowed to continue.
Anyone that would defend this guys actions are just showing their true character, and I wouldn't buy anything from you either.

[MarkoD]

the guy ****ed me off. wouldnt warranty his product brand new out of the box.

i hope his business fails so he can stop screwing people

his logic was: the store i bought it from took my money so they should warranty it.

my question to him was "you send out skimmers to retail stores for free?"

[Judy Waytiuk]

jorjef, you are in Regina. We are in Winnipeg. There's a fair amount of info that has been going around for some time among local aquarists about this subject. here is the link that lists the full CITES control list-- species for which you can get permits.
http://ec.gc.ca/cites/listedecontrole/index.cfm?lang=e&fuseaction=prList.swFullList
Please note scleratinia rock is not on that list.
As for two people crucifying a business-- had you seen the posts on the local fish forum for the few hours the thread was active before it was shut down, you would know the local fish community was pretty p'd off with this guy.
It would be useful if you were to try to form your opinions based on solid information.

[jtbadco]

Gee,...MarkoD has hundreds of posts!!! I guess you'll give more weight to his opinion.:mrgreen:

[Myka]

I don't think anyone is really going to buy a bazooka and shoot their skimmer.
I'm pretty sure they are just voicing their disapproval :)

Considering a bazooka or AK would get me more jail time than 20,000 lbs of illegally imported live rock...uh, yeah I think you're spot on with the second sentence there! ;)

I think if you read this and look who its coming from, MYka AKA Mindy is playing around Come on she isnt going to smash her skimmers. she is joking.

Yup. :D

[jtbadco]

Well, you had me on the fence there for a minute....I had a very clear picture of you in your backyard lining up the sights and making a big boom!!!:razz:

[MarkoD]

Considering a bazooka or AK would get me more jail time than 20,000 lbs of illegally imported live rock...uh, yeah I think you're spot on with the second sentence there! ;)

wait what? jail time for an AK?

[jorjef]

What the hell difference does it make how many posts we have on Canreef?!? Like the number of posts you have made makes your point more or less valid. Give your head a shake.

Fact- The guy broke the law. He should be punished.

Nothing personal at all....but if no one says anything about stuff like this then it continues. By not speaking out against it, you are condoning the behavior.

I don't know where my shoes were made either, but if I hear a company uses sweat shops, then I don't buy from them anymore.

To state that we shouldn't comment on this because we aren't intimately aware of the process of collection is retarded. By commenting on this we are making ourselves more aware of the process and by getting rid of greedy conmen we are making sure that those shady practices are not allowed to continue.
Anyone that would defend this guys actions are just showing their true character, and I wouldn't buy anything from you either.

Do you shop at Walmart? better not....The punishment needs to match the crime. You want him erased from the world and are going to no ends to voice this. Yep he's been proven guilty and will be sentenced, how are you making the world a better place by shouting out about the past, go make a difference in the future or quit preaching.

[MarkoD]

this is way more entertaining when im not a part of it

[Skimmerking]

Well, you had me on the fence there for a minute....I had a very clear picture of you in your backyard lining up the sights and making a big boom!!!:razz:

LOL ya my hand was out taking the fresh new 20's that Mindy made in her back yard shed. as I hand over the freshly new painted M-72 rocket launcher.

:wink:

[Myka]

I think you guys should leave the personal banter out of this unless you want the mods to close the thread. If you feel like being a jerk do it in PM. A thread like this should be discussed, and would be a shame to see it closed.

Moot point.... YOU CANNOT GET PERMITS FOR WHAT HE BROUGHT IN.

Are you talking about the seahorses? Seahorses were added to the CITES list (meaning they required permitting) in 2004. I do believe that in 2008 you could still get CITES for wild seahorses...I can't find any references to this right now though, but I thought it was just a couple years ago that the wild collection ban came into place. Anyone know for sure...can find reference?

[jorjef]

Ya I'm done...:biggrin:

[Skimmerking]

this is way more entertaining when im not a part of it
ya Mark go plan a wedding you hoser.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

[jtbadco]

Do you shop at Walmart? better not....The punishment needs to match the crime. You want him erased from the world and are going to no ends to voice this. Yep he's been proven guilty and will be sentenced, how are you making the world a better place by shouting out about the past, go make a difference in the future or quit preaching.


So then people should not discuss the wars or the holocaust, that stuff is all in the past.

The way you change the future is by making sure people don't forget the past. You want to stick your head in the sand, go ahead if it makes you feel better.
I did my part today to inform people that obviously care, what did you do....???

And I don't want him erased from the world, people need to be informed so they can make intelligent decisions. I posted the story so people could read and make their own judgements.

[Myka]

Resist the urge to be a jerk...DOIT! :p

[Skimmerking]

Resist the urge to be a jerk...DOIT! :p
play nice you meany lol

[MarkoD]

why would i plan a wedding? im not getting married :neutral:

[Delphinus]

I guess this hobby brings out passionate beliefs in people and it's difficult to express this in a forum without it get inappropriately heated and personal. I've been reading every post and I see both good points and flawed logic in here. To quote Yoda, let go of your anger. Ultimately this is a sad story regardless what we feel about any individuals.

Debate nice please. I'd rather not see this get closed.

[jtbadco]

I agree 100%

I believe in speaking out against any wrong doing I consider significant. It doesn't matter if it's a LFS or a major bank. Bad is bad. Nothing personal at all.

And I am not angry so much as disappointed really. Being stuck smack in the middle of the country makes for poor accessibility to the whole SW industry. We have very few local SW suppliers, and their access to good products and equipment is limited.

SWC is/was one of only a handful of local SW shops and I can't deny that they make some good equipment. They are one of the largest dedicated SW stores, if not the largest in Winnipeg. That is what makes this so sad. He was making an important contribution to the hobby, locally and internationally.

[jorjef]

And I am not angry so much as disappointed really.

As (http://as/) far as I'm concerned they should throw the book at him. Maybe a $1M fine and a couple years in jail will teach him a lesson.


My main objection is that he is allowed to stay in business.

No anger there, just say'in..... Yes, yes Mindy I know, but they were being jerks too!! I admit my comments are usually not of a constructive type but I don't agree with some of the comments and wasn't going for a sugar coated compromise to the subject, they came out gunning hard and I disagreed with some of their views.

[Zoaelite]

:popcorn:
These are not the liverocks you are looking for...

[jtbadco]

No anger at all. He has never hurt me directly or personally.

I don't feel he should be allowed to stay in business. My opinion.
The fine and jail time are what he is facing as stated in the article, just a fact.

You don't need to be angry to stand up for something.

[Myka]

I also think that a big stink should made out of this so that the public knows that us hobbyists do not agree with this type of behavior. With what is going on with the proposed ban in Hawaii, stuff like this does not help our hobby!

Yes, yes Mindy I know, but they were being jerks too!!

So if everyone else jumped off a bridge would you, too? :lol:

[jorjef]

So if everyone else jumped off a bridge would you, too? :lol:

No, I just yell at them as I watch them fall....There is nothing "right" about being in this hobby, no thinking we're ethical just because we rally about the extremes in the industry either good or bad. We still keep captured wild animals in a small glass box. If a person has a problem with the way the industry is they should leave the hobby rather than support it. :biggrin:

[fishytime]

No, I just yell at them as I watch them fall....There is nothing "right" about being in this hobby, no thinking we're ethical just because we rally about the extremes in the industry either good or bad. We still keep captured wild animals in a small glass box. If a person has a problem with the way the industry is they should leave the hobby rather than support it. :biggrin:

This is true..... But if we choose to be involved in this hobby, however selfish that may be, then we can also choose to support retailers that do things legally...... No?

[reefwars]

This is true..... But if we choose to be involved in this hobby, however selfish that may be, then we can also choose to support retailers that do things legally...... No?


thats where i stand too......without laws and regulations to follow alot of stuff would go downhill pretty quick......whats so hard about obeying the law???

[jorjef]

This is true..... But if we choose to be involved in this hobby, however selfish that may be, then we can also choose to support retailers that do things legally...... No?

Sure that's what we do when we decide where our dollars are spent. There would be people/retailers that would have bought the rock regardless of how it was obtained I don't think he would have brought in 10 tons without a few of them being pre sold or at the very least knowing he could move it. How can anyone be certain the rock they have in their tank, the fish they take home or the corals they buy are 100 percent legal. With an industry that starts mostly in impoverished nations you could hardly blame a local for cutting a few corners (or breaking the law) to feed his family. But when that product hits the shops who can say with complete certainty that it was brought in legal.

[Myka]

If a person has a problem with the way the industry is they should leave the hobby rather than support it. :biggrin:

Right, but the "the way the industry is" in general is not illegal importation!

we can also choose to support retailers that do things legally...... No?

Yes, agreed.

How can anyone be certain the rock they have in their tank, the fish they take home or the corals they buy are 100 percent legal.

As a hobbyist you never know, that's just such an open statement that it is kinda ridiculous.

[lastlight]

If one more person refers to the permits as CITIES I'm borrowing Mike's AK =)

Given the mood around here I should add that that's a joke :biggrin:

[jorjef]

As a hobbyist you never know, that's just such an open statement that it is kinda ridiculous.

It is when you take it out of context, not so much when you read what went along with it.

[Myka]

If one more person refers to the permits as CITIES I'm borrowing Mike's AK =)

Agreed! I refrained from commenting. :lol:

It is when you take it out of context, not so much when you read what went along with it.

It was still ridiculous. I just don't like big huge quotes, so I only quoted exactly what I was commenting on. I always do this. :becky:

[jorjef]

It was still ridiculous. I just don't like big huge quotes, so I only quoted exactly what I was commenting on. I always do this. :becky:

How conveeeeeeenient lol:lol: Okay I'm done again...

[jtbadco]

we could only hope....

so basically since there is bad in the world and always will be,...no one should bother to try for any measure of proper behavior? Beautiful!!!

[jorjef]

we could only hope....

so basically since there is bad in the world and always will be,...no one should bother to try for any measure of proper behavior? Beautiful!!!

Maybe your crusade is driven by the guilt you feel in having an aquarium full of captive creatures? I can't say, but because I don't bow to your lynch mob metality when starting this post doesn't mean you are any better than me.

[jorjef]

Hey Marko, is there any room over there in the "penalty box of public opinion" I may be coming over...

[jtbadco]

You have voiced your opinion, so get over yourself and go away. Most of the people here have agreed with my post and the reasons for posting it.
I feel no guilt whatsoever, your reasoning is as flawed as your logic.

And your responses show I'm better than you, I could care less whether you agree with my post.

[Judy Waytiuk]

I thought you were done, Jorjef. Apparently not. Pity. Non-constructive insults don't add to any form of discussion.
Well, here's food for thought, since you are railing on about the general lack of ethics among reefers keeping captured wildlife prisoners in glass boxes: a good deal of research into coral reef health has evolved from hobbyists' original interests. And a lot of responsible hobbyists buy aquacultured corals now-- which only became available when hobbyists began asking for them instead of wild-harvested corals. Much knowledge and research has been generated as a result of the interests of hobbyists.
Lynch mob mentality...?? when you have something useful to say, say it. If all you can do is throw insults around, maybe just leave the discussion to the grownups trying to impart actual information.

[MarkoD]

im just hoping to get one of those swc cone skimmers for dirt cheap

[jtbadco]

:lol:

With any luck you can get it at his 'going out of business sale'

[Leah]

No, I just yell at them as I watch them fall....There is nothing "right" about being in this hobby, no thinking we're ethical just because we rally about the extremes in the industry either good or bad. We still keep captured wild animals in a small glass box. If a person has a problem with the way the industry is they should leave the hobby rather than support it. :biggrin:

Oh so true...if you think that we are not a part of the whole problem, think again.

[jtbadco]

I agree completely.

Human beings are the direct causes of alot of problems on earth, especially where the environment is involved, and admittedly in the aquarium hobby.

However, the only way to ever change anything is for someone to start with one thing. To speak the truth and trust that responsible people can make intelligent choices.

I also fully believe that having home aquariums can be beneficial to the wild,...if we can mandate responsibility in the industry.
There has been a huge move in SW towards tank bred corals and fish, driven by an aquarium trade that at least acknowledges that we are better off not removing species from the wild.

[Leah]

I agree completely.

Human beings are the direct causes of alot of problems on earth, especially where the environment is involved, and admittedly in the aquarium hobby.

However, the only way to ever change anything is for someone to start with one thing. To speak the truth and trust that responsible people can make intelligent choices.

I also fully believe that having home aquariums can be beneficial to the wild,...if we can mandate responsibility in the industry.
There has been a huge move in SW towards tank bred corals and fish, driven by an aquarium trade that at least acknowledges that we are better off not removing species from the wild.

How is it beneficial to the wild?

[jtbadco]

The only way to have a positive effect is by increasing awareness.

I believe that home aquariums bring a piece of the ocean into our homes where we can teach our family and children the value of life and the benefits of preserving wildlife. Would each individual fish or critter be better off in their original environment,...of course. But bringing in animals responsibly, in proper numbers as not to deplete natural sources helps to make these animals 'real' for people. People can only form so much attachment watching things on TV or in pictures. Seeing it up close has I'm sure has engendered lots of support from new sources.

That is why the industry is regulated and monitored,...and cases like this get prosecuted.
I can't change everything and I am certainly no saint, but I'd like to think that if we all did just a little bit we could probably make things alot better.

[chandigz]

Just thought I'd get my two cents in. I'm not saying what he did was right but some of you might want to look up what CITIES stands for. Convention for International Trade in Endangered Species. And yes permits are available for what he got caught for. I know because I work in the trade. The only thing that made it illegal was that he didn't have permits. The only difference is legal endangered species have a CITIES permit. None of these species are schedule I which cannot be imported. They are schedule II so they can be imported if done properly with a permit.

For those of you that would never keep an endangered species, you might want to take a second look at what you have in your tanks because any of you that have live rock(live rock is dead coral), coral, clams, seahorses are keeping endangered species. The only difference is yours hopefully had a little piece of paper that said its OK. And you thought you were that much better than him. Do any of you have copies of the CITIES permits to prove your stuff is legal if customs or DFO came knocking on your door? I can prove some of mine is legal because I have some of the permit numbers on file for some of my coral but not all. You might want to take a look in the mirror and reconsider your thoughts because most of us guilty of keeping endangered species.

Thats all I have to say and I'm not saying anymore.

[reefwars]

Just thought I'd get my two cents in. I'm not saying what he did was right but some of you might want to look up what CITIES stands for. Convention for International Trade in Endangered Species. And yes permits are available for what he got caught for. I know because I work in the trade. The only thing that made it illegal was that he didn't have permits. The only difference is legal endangered species have a CITIES permit. None of these species are schedule I which cannot be imported. They are schedule II so they can be imported if done properly with a permit.

For those of you that would never keep an endangered species, you might want to take a second look at what you have in your tanks because any of you that have live rock(live rock is dead coral), coral, clams, seahorses are keeping endangered species. The only difference is yours hopefully had a little piece of paper that said its OK. And you thought you were that much better than him. Do any of you have copies of the CITIES permits to prove your stuff is legal if customs or DFO came knocking on your door? I can prove some of mine is legal because I have some of the permit numbers on file for some of my coral but not all. You might want to take a look in the mirror and reconsider your thoughts because most of us guilty of keeping endangered species.

Thats all I have to say and I'm not saying anymore.



well put thank you for clearing that up:)

[MarkoD]

So we require permits for keeping these things in tanks? Or are the permits just for importing?

[jtbadco]

good points, and true....but they still don't diminish the reason for this post. And to correct myself, I should have used the term banned species rather than endangered but again only semantics. No one has convicted me of smuggling with or without permits.

If I see everyone stealing around me, do I say nothing?

Regardless, my original point still stands. It's one thing to be involved in a hobby with questionable practices,...totally different to openly support someone convicted of crimes.

And I know quite well I am not perfect,...does a person have to be perfect themselves before they are allowed to speak out against something they consider wrong? It's like the other guy taking shots because I have less posts than him, like either one makes any difference?!?

Anyways, I'd like to thank everyone for their participation and contributions. You have turned what was intended to be a small post on a local relevant topic into a huge discussion and brought it lots of attention. :x-mas:

[chandigz]

The permits are only required for international trade(import/export/re-export). I'm only saying that once these items enter the country we can only assume they were legally imported unless you have access to the permits for proof. If you were trying to re-export from Canada to another country or from the US to Canada, you would need copies of the original CITIES permit from the country of origin. The reason most cultured corals from the US (like some ORA)cannot be legally re-exported into Canada is because they do not have a copy of the original permit of origin.

[MarkoD]

The permits are only required for international trade(import/export/re-export). I'm only saying that once these items enter the country we can only assume they were legally imported unless you have access to the permits for proof. If you were trying to re-export from Canada to another country or from the US to Canada, you would need copies of the original CITIES permit from the country of origin. The reason most cultured corals from the US (like some ORA)cannot be legally re-exported into Canada is because they do not have a copy of the original permit of origin.

But how could anyone know if a coral originated in the ocean or from a frag of a frag of a frag?

[reefwars]

But how could anyone know if a coral originated in the ocean or from a frag of a frag of a frag?



if its in your tank in this country its assumed permits were had to bring it in making it legal for you to have, its getting caught in the process of importing without having the proper documents thats illegal.....anyone could have black market animals in there tank theres no way to tell.

[jtbadco]

which is exactly why we should be getting rid of the ones we do catch.

And just to clarify, by getting rid of, I mean to say get them out of the industry,..I'm not suggesting Myka get the AK out.:twised:

[chandigz]

But how could anyone know if a coral originated in the ocean or from a frag of a frag of a frag?
Thats the problem you can't and either can they. The way customs sees it they all originated from the ocean at one time. Any piece of calcium carbonate based coral skeleton is considered to be part of an endangerded species whether captive grown or wild. They cannot tell the difference between a third generation frag containing none of the original coral or a clipping of a wild coral. Canada and the US as well as other countries do not allow export of there own corals so that coral had to come from somewhere. The only way to kind of prove that coral is legal is with a copy of the permit. But who is to say a certain permit goes with a certain coral. I guess a permit containing Acropora could really be used for any re-export of an acropora. Who would know?

[fishytime]

^^^so we should ignore the fact that this guy just got convicted of 18 offenses and support him because none of us can prove were our coral came from?

shouldnt you, being in the industry, be supportive of a conviction off such offenses......HE DIDNT HAVE THE PROPER PAPERWORK!.....anyone who makes the importation of cites regulated specimens knows the paper-trail that NEEDS to be followed........it not like he was like, "dang! I done forgot to the fill out and file the paperwork".......If this is your business then you KNOW what avenues you need to follow to legally import things.....


Sad part is, is he will not see jail time and likely be forced to pay a nominal fine (especially if this was his first trip through the system) and will still be selling stuff tomorrow......this is where the customer can make a difference

[chandigz]

I agree, him not having permits was illegal and he should pay. Importing these species is not. The reason these species (CITIES schedule II)require CITIES permits is that they are on watch list a quota system in order to monitor and control export/import so they don't become so endangered that they become a "Banned" (CITIES schedule I species). Not having the permits means that they were not counted in the quotas which could have an impact on the overall outlook of the species and if allowed to continue could make them truely endangered. I agree that an example should be made so that others don't try. None of these species are banned yet. BUT....

Currently there are several special interest groups In the US that are pushing for several coral species including several species of acropora, euphyllia(frogspawn, torch, hammer) and others to be moved from CITIES schedule II to CITIES schedule I. If this happens they would be considered "banned endangered species" and you may require permits to keep the ones you have(grandfathered). If this happens you would not legally be able to import, export, devide or frag(now you would need multiple permits but your new peice would not be grandfathered so it would be illegal), sell, give or transport over state and possible provincial lines. The worst part of this is that it would make captive culturing of these species illegal so if the species did become extinct in wild the it could be gone for good This is what over harvesting because of illegally imported endangered species could lead to.

[chandigz]

^^^so we should ignore the fact that this guy just got convicted of 18 offenses and support him because none of us can prove were our coral came from?

shouldnt you, being in the industry, be supportive of a conviction off such offenses......HE DIDNT HAVE THE PROPER PAPERWORK!.....anyone who makes the importation of cites regulated specimens knows the paper-trail that NEEDS to be followed........it not like he was like, "dang! I done forgot to the fill out and file the paperwork".......If this is your business then you KNOW what avenues you need to follow to legally import things.....


Sad part is, is he will not see jail time and likely be forced to pay a nominal fine (especially if this was his first trip through the system) and will still be selling stuff tomorrow......this is where the customer can make a difference

Like I said in my intial response what he did was wrong. I was not defending him. No where did i say it wasn't wrong. I just wanted to let people know the facts about the species they were keeping. I just wanted to let the people that were saying that they would never keep an endangered species of coral that they should have their facts straight. All hard coral/live rock(Scleractinia sp.)are on the CITIES list. They are there because they are endangered. We all like to point fingers but we need to know the facts. These species can be legaly imported. He did it illegally and its good that he got caught.

[Delphinus]

CITES, not CITIES! :p

[reefwars]

CITES, not CITIES! :p


way to stir up trouble tony lol:pppp

[fishytime]

CITES, not CITIES! :p

:lol:....you crack me up Tony

[jtbadco]

Thank you both for clarifying. It is admitted that we were incorrect about the circumstances of the convictions. Regardless my concern was with his involvement in the hobby and him breaking the law, not what his specific charge was.

I wanted to bring attention to something that should concern us all. My intent was to help inform and support the hobby.

Another point about which I won't speculate too much....What we have heard about here was one set of circumstances where he was investigated and caught and prosecuted. When most criminals are caught,...it is not their first time at bat. I would not be shocked to find out he has committed other acts that he was not caught at.

[chandigz]

CITES, not CITIES! :p

Doh!! Got me there.

[jtbadco]

I don't know,...I'm pretty sure it's CITIES.:razz:

[Delphinus]

Sitties?

[reefwars]

cfties

[chandigz]

Well I said more then my two cents so ill leave it at that. Glad he got caught, convicted, and he should pay the price so our hobby can continue. Hopefully we can continue to learn, keep, culture, trade, and love our endangered species and who knows one day we could be repenishing the ocean if continuing global warming and greenhouse gasses make some of these species extinct in the wild.

[jtbadco]

Amen:canada:

[The Grizz]

I don't know,...I'm pretty sure it's CITIES.:razz:

Sitties?

CITES, not CITIES! :p

Sighties........:razz:

[vshawn]

IMO this hobby is a privilege and losers like him need to be shutdown because everything that is abused in this world is eventually taken away. people like him are why this hobby is so expensive.

[MarkoD]

IMO this hobby is a privilege and losers like him need to be shutdown because everything that is abused in this world is eventually taken away. people like him are why this hobby is so expensive.

Lol did you make an account just for that post?

Welcome :)

[wingedfish]

I'm starting to think there is a vested interest in Jayson going down.... Some here (some peggers) are spending lots of bandwidth telling us what an evil doer he is. Yeah I think it's unanimous that passing 20 000 lbs of permit needed rock under the nose of the powers that be wasn't too bright. But the maximum? C-mon.

Never met him, I have a SWC skimmer and lights. Had a warrantee issue with the skimmer pump and only payed shipping for a replacement. Besides this black eye I have nothing bad to say about him or his product.

[reefermadness]

The reason most cultured corals from the US (like some ORA)cannot be legally re-exported into Canada is because they do not have a copy of the original permit of origin.

ha...what. I lost this battle a while ago.

[jtbadco]

Actually this was only intended to be a small post to bring attention to the issue.
It was all of the small people with nothing better to do than flap their lips who turned it into a big deal.

By all means please continue.

'(some peggers) are spending lots of bandwidth telling us what an evil doer he is.'???

Who the heck would you expect to speak out against this, people from Norway? It happened in our city, our community. Stands to reason we would have a voice about it. Any responsible fish-keeper should.

If you guys think it's not a big deal,...then shut your pie holes and the thread will go away. It's only still active because of all the jerks condoning his actions.

[Doug]

Actually this was only intended to be a small post to bring attention to the issue.
It was all of the small people with nothing better to do than flap their lips who turned it into a big deal.

By all means please continue.

'(some peggers) are spending lots of bandwidth telling us what an evil doer he is.'???

Who the heck would you expect to speak out against this, people from Norway? It happened in our city, our community. Stands to reason we would have a voice about it. Any responsible fish-keeper should.

If you guys think it's not a big deal,...then shut your pie holes and the thread will go away. It's only still active because of all the jerks condoning his actions.

Those last comments are really nice. :sad:

If one of the other staff members wish this thread open, they can reopen it.

[muck]

Nope... I think we are about done here.