Sick fish....QT tanks and the headaches... how do you cope?

[Hustler]

So.... fresh into saltwater i have everything up and running and all my tests are good...
all of a sudden i see my powder blue covered in slime... so im googling like crazy and have about 50 diffrent causes and i go check on em.... Dead.
next day i see both my clowns covered in it... So i buy a QT tank.... Didnt want one... never needed one in 20 years of keeping freshies but i did it...
Lost 1 clown a day after the move but the other is doing great...
I chaulk this up to brooklinella?
All my other fish in the display seem fine and everyone eats like pigs but from what i read stress is the kicker... How do you avoid stress when adding new fish?
Ill try the FW dip from now on but i guess it dosent work with the clownfish desies anyways....
Ive been following the "do you QT" poll and really i agree a health new fish should be fine to toss right in but at the same time.... marine fish are little A holes that are insistent on causing whatever trouble they can....
In fresh you could raise the temp... add some salt and cure just about anything....
Is there any tricks i dont know i can use for my display that will help this out....
Im feeding garlic with my food just cus i believe its a wonder cure for myself so it must work for fish :)

[Hustler]

Now... In the QT i still keep live rock and sand right?
I have a heater and filters with no carbon....
Still trying to find the right treatment for this slime sluffing Im still guessing is clownfish desies.... weird they were fine for months till the powder got stressed though?

[daniella3d]

It coulde be marine velvet, or it could be broklynella, hard to tell.

It is important since the treatment is different and with broklynella only formaline works, and for velvet you need Cupramine.

If the other fish are not infected, I would think broklynella. The best way to start would be to do a dip in formaline and then put the fish in quarantine and continue treating with formaline. You can try Seachem Paraguard, as this is a broad spectrum med that is effective againts many things like ick and bacterial infection.

If you treat with Cupramine don't put any liverock in the tank because it will be contaminated with copper. If you treat with Paraguard put some cycled liverock in the QT so that biological filtration will be working.

Now you would need to treat all the fish and leave your tank without fish for 6 weeks, because if you reintroduce the fish into contaminated water they will become sick again, plus not just because your other fish don't show sign yet, it does not mean they will not eventually start as well. Most parasites have cycle.

AS for saltwater being harder to treat for disease as freshwater...I can see you never had to deal with discus plague...I spent one week hardly getting any sleep trying to save my discus from that deadly disease. I managed to save them all but one but darn I was exhausted from the lack of sleep after that week. I never had any problem with my marine fish but I do what's right..and I quarantine. If a problem would show up it would be limited and easy to treat fast in quarantine. I nearly loast my discus because I did not quarantine...lesson learned.


Now... In the QT i still keep live rock and sand right?
I have a heater and filters with no carbon....
Still trying to find the right treatment for this slime sluffing Im still guessing is clownfish desies.... weird they were fine for months till the powder got stressed though?

[staceyd72]

Sorry to hear of the lost. If you suspect Brooklynella try using formalin, I've used this in the past and had good success with it, however I cannot quite recall the exact dosage I used. You should get on the medication regime immediately upon discovery to be effective, the longer the parasite is free to do its damage the faster they reproduce, and eventually death will occur to the host fish.

For a QT tank(should be mandatory for a PBT) no live rock is required, but some hobbyists do however use live rock. I just used some four inch PVC for hiding, no light, but I use a dedicated skimmer and run some carbon.

There are no 'tricks' just careful planning and patience. Research the fish you wish to purchase and put them through quarantine, same with corals. I know, it's easier said than done. Good luck.

[Hustler]

Almost anyone i talk to around here dosnt QT anything.... as most of the stores we frequent have copper tanks ect anyways and will hold fish a while for you as well.
Seeing as everything was healthy and eating prior to adding them i figured i would have the same luck...
And luck is what i chaulk this up to with salt water....LOL
Im not about to tear down my display... Ill deal with the QT and do a dip from now on i guess... but if its stress that causes it then a dip is just increasing the chances...

[lpsreefer]

Maybe u have some parasite or bacteria in ur tanks water, maybe try a uv sterilizer. Just an idea. I know it helped out in my tank.

[Myka]

I think a quarantine tank is a MUST for all large tanks simply because of the number of lives invested (and often the number of dollars) in the tank. One new fish can wipe out the whole tank. Marine Velvet is probably the scariest SW disease.

Copper is the devil imo. I won't buy it. Copper doesn't treat anything that a different (safer and better) medication could treat. For Velvet and Brookynella I use Formalin (dips) which is easier to use and is safer for the fish.

Personally, I dip all incoming fish in FW (RO/DI) with some methylene blue after they are done drop acclimating (to the quarantine tank). You NEED a digital pH meter for this as you have to match the pH of the freshwater with the pH of the quarantine tank. It takes a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of baking soda to raise the pH of RO water. Here's a great reference: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine-fish-care-health-disease-treatment/18887-freshwater-dip-marine-fishes.html. This same author also has a great reference for Formalin dips, although I don't think that all incoming Clowns should be dipped as most are captive bred these days and tougher...if they are wild caught, then yes they should be dipped. http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine-fish-care-health-disease-treatment/25290-formalin-treatment-marine-fishes.html

Here's something I typed out for someone else (I'm feeling lazy):
A quarantine tank shouldn't have live rock in it. Just a heater, small powerhead pointed at the surface for good gas exchange, and some pieces of PVC for them to hide in. You can use black or white PVC, just the fittings or some pieces of pipe. Use at least 50% water from an established tank to fill the QT, and add a seasoned filter pad from the established tank as well. I like to use a SeaChem Ammonia Alert which works very well and lasts a year. I use AmQuel to detoxify ammonia when needed. Most ammonia test kits are not compatible with ammonia detoxifiers, but the Ammonia Alert is. You don't need a light on it, but you should have a lid of some sort because new and sick fish startle easily and are prone to jumping out.

For hyposalinity you HAVE TO use a refractometer to measure salinity as you need to be very accurate. Here is an ok link the hypo...wish I could find a better one: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?144242-A-general-guide-to-Hyposalinity

[The Grizz]

Well I hate to say it but I would be leaning more towards Velvet then anything else as its a fast killer, it wiped out my very first 65 gal in a matter of days after it had been up for almost 6 months, I only had one survivor a yellow tang. I really don't know where it came from or how to treat for it, if you even can because it kills so fast.

I don't have a QT set-up full time but can put one together in a matter of minutes. I usually only buy fish from a few LFS & from well established tanks.

A UV will do nothing for Velvet, has one on my 65 to no avale. All my fish would eat until the last day or 2, all of them had a very slimy coat & where very pale. My Volitan Lion was the hardest one to watch go because of the way Velvet eat away at it huge fins, desolved them right to the cartilage. It was so very hard to watch.

Good luck mate, hope I am very wrong for the rest of your fishes sake.

[daniella3d]

Luck has the strange habbit of turning around...


Seeing as everything was healthy and eating prior to adding them i figured i would have the same luck...

[jostafew]

Sorry for the loss in your tank, hard lesson learned it sounds like. It still baffles me to hear about ppl who don't QT livestock before adding to the DT... I've only been in the hobby for two years and i've already heard more than enough stories to justify the time & expense, nevermind the couple occasions where my QT has already saved my ass! It's not that expensive, not that hard, i can't think of a good reason to not QT... And IMHO just because ppl get away with it does not make a legitimate reason. Russian roullette, just not worth the risk.... Btw if it wasn't answered above, no it's not recommended to have sand and live rock in the QT, unless you don't mind throwing it out on a regular basis (can't clean it properly if needed).

[daniella3d]

That's only true if you use copper (cupramine or other copper) but if you use formaline or Paraguard it's not toxic and liverock is good because there is no ammonia problem. Without liverock ammonia must be monitored twice per dans and water in large quantity must be ready at any time the ammonia start to rise. Ammonia at high PH is very toxic and only a small trace can kill fish. I suspect that those who fail and kill their fish in quarantine are not paying attention to ammonia.

and live rock in the QT, unless you don't mind throwing it out on a regular basis (can't clean it properly if needed).

[mike31154]

Now... In the QT i still keep live rock and sand right?
I have a heater and filters with no carbon....
Still trying to find the right treatment for this slime sluffing Im still guessing is clownfish desies.... weird they were fine for months till the powder got stressed though?

Best of luck with your treatment & sure hope you don't lose too much, but... seems to me looking at your tank build that it hasn't been up all that long & a lot of livestock was added in a short period of time (end of November 2011?). Correct me if I'm wrong, however if this is the case that will certainly have an impact on the health of your fish. Sure a 300 is a large tank & is probably more forgiving when adding livestock, but it's still best to take your time. Sorry I don't have any advice as to treatment & that's been pretty well covered so far in the thread. Again, hope things work out ok & the remaining livestock stays healthy.

[Myka]

Hustler, everyone looks good and eats well before they get H1N1 too. ;)

That's only true if you use copper (cupramine or other copper) but if you use formaline or Paraguard it's not toxic and liverock is good because there is no ammonia problem. Without liverock ammonia must be monitored twice per dans and water in large quantity must be ready at any time the ammonia start to rise.

Ammonia is easily and inexpensively controlled using AmQuel ($12 for a 1-5+ year supply depending how often you use it) or other ammonia detoxifiers. Ammonia is easily and accurately monitored using a SeaChem Ammonia Alert ($10 for a year). No need for large, expensive water changes.

Live rock can't be in a tank with copper because it will absorb the copper and make the treatment ineffective (not to mention ruin the rock). Not that I believe any fish should ever be treated with copper though.

[daniella3d]

Ok but be very carefull with any ammonia neutralizer because some will bind with Cupramine and release the copper into a toxic form. It is documented on the Seachem site.

Things like Prime only neutralize the ammonia for 24 hours so it must be taken out of the system by water change if there is no biological filtration or redosed on regular basis. It also affect the level of oxygen in the tank if the temperature is high.


Ammonia is easily and inexpensively controlled using AmQuel ($12 for a 1-5+ year supply depending how often you use it) or other ammonia detoxifiers. Ammonia is easily and accurately monitored using a SeaChem Ammonia Alert ($10 for a year). No need for large, expensive water changes.

Live rock can't be in a tank with copper because it will absorb the copper and make the treatment ineffective (not to mention ruin the rock). Not that I believe any fish should ever be treated with copper though.

[Reef Pilot]

I feel really bad when I keep reading about this over and over with SW newbies. That's because I got sucked in, too, by some of the long time SW "experts" here who claim quarantine is not necessary, and garlic is the best remedy. And if your livestock still dies, well, you are just a bad fish keeper with stressing your fish, and your water quality must not be good enough. At least that is the implied message. Might be good for their egos, but sure doesn't help people who are new to SW.

I learned my lesson just over a year and now quarantine everything, incl corals. I did a lot more research outside of Canreef, and no doubt in my mind, that is the only safe practice with new livestock. As others have stated, though, be sure your QT is cycled, too, so you don't have any ammonia problems. I keep my 30 g QT running all the time, with a canister filter, so don't even need any live rock.

I do the hyposalinity routine and take a full 2 months and use that time also to get my fish feeding well, so they are strong and ready before going into my display tank. I have done this twice now, with 100% success rate.

I think the best advice for newbies should be to set up a QT. After many years, and once you become a SW "expert", then maybe you can get away without it, if you really know your fish, and exactly where they came from prior to your purchase. But the only really safe practice, IMO, is quarantine.

[Myka]

Ok but be very carefull with any ammonia neutralizer because some will bind with Cupramine and release the copper into a toxic form. It is documented on the Seachem site.

Yes good point, this is just another reason to not use copper. ;)

Things like Prime only neutralize the ammonia for 24 hours so it must be taken out of the system by water change if there is no biological filtration or redosed on regular basis.

This is simply not correct, it needs to be redosed because there is more ammonia added to the tank via the fish pooping. I use these types of products everyday in high volume. I prefer to use AmQuel though because it is cheaper and strangely enough it is twice the concentration of Prime.

[daniella3d]

No sir :) I am right about this that Prime dissipate in about 24 hours:

from SEachem web site:

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html

"Prime dissipates from your system within 24 hours"

That too has been well documented. I was quite surprised when I first learned about it. So what happen to the ammonia when it dissipate? Do they mean it's been consummed by the bacterias? and if there are no bacterias what happen after 24 hours? not quite sure.


This is simply not correct, it needs to be redosed because there is more ammonia added to the tank via the fish pooping. I use these types of products everyday in high volume. I prefer to use AmQuel though because it is cheaper and strangely enough it is twice the concentration of Prime.

[Hustler]

Well my main issue that ive come across is when people say the fish should be added at the same time or they will fight.... But then say your adding too many fish at once... One by One they will fight and die... all together its too fast on the system??? ...
Ive got over 400lbs of fully cycled LR in there plus the monster skimmer and bio reactor... Its not the water...and other than the occational nipping i dont see where stress would come from?

[mike31154]

Comes down to that when adding livestock there's no simple or one size fits all solution in salt water. Don't know about fresh, never had a freshwater system. Such a variety of species available with salt water and with it variety of needs, it's hard to know when or how the best way to add them is. I made more than one error as well when starting my system, had a few losses due to not researching & impulse buys. Getting better though. Watching a few beautiful fish die has tempered my impatience.

[daniella3d]

Because parasites are there and they are living and multiplying, it does not mean that your fish absolutelly must be stressed for the parasites to colonize them.

Stress or no stress, eventually the parasites number will grow.


Well my main issue that ive come across is when people say the fish should be added at the same time or they will fight.... But then say your adding too many fish at once... One by One they will fight and die... all together its too fast on the system??? ...
Ive got over 400lbs of fully cycled LR in there plus the monster skimmer and bio reactor... Its not the water...and other than the occational nipping i dont see where stress would come from?

[Myka]

No sir :) I am right about this that Prime dissipate in about 24 hours: "Prime dissipates from your system within 24 hours"

You've taken that out of context. Once Prime has bound NH3 into NH4 it doesn't dissipate back to NH3. Excess Prime that has not bound to NH3 will dissipate.

Well my main issue that ive come across is when people say the fish should be added at the same time or they will fight.... But then say your adding too many fish at once... One by One they will fight and die... all together its too fast on the system???

If everything was "perfect" you would have a different quarantine tank for each fish, but that's unlikely. You can quarantine many different kinds of fish together provided you buy a few compatible fish at a time. Make sure the size of the quarantine matches the number, size, and type(!) of fish. Long narrow tank make better quarantines if you are going to quarantine multiple fish at a time because they can maintain a distance from each other. A 45 gallon tank would probably be suitable for many of the fish you are planning to get, but bigger or more active fish (like large Tangs) would need something bigger. You can also use egg crate to make dividers. In a tank your size, you could easily add 2-4 fish at a time depending on the size of the fish. Use water from the display for the quarantine tank to save on the cost of salt. You can keep "old" water from water changes in a barrel, just pour it through a filter sock and use it within a couple weeks.