Longest Possible Safe FW Dip?

[rastaangel]

To date I have lost 2 achilles, 2 purples, a yellow, a powder blue and a hippo tang in QT, they were the only deaths in the QT all other fish survived. I have always gone to extreme lenghts to stop any parasites in my DT and QT every fish for 3 weeks min but as you can see from my list thats alot of dead fish and lotsa gone money...
So my question is how many of you just FW dip a fish then drop it into your display? How long do you dip? I have always done a 5 min dip before they go into the QT, but I have read anything less then 20-25 min or until the fish is in danger isnt doing a good enough job...
IF I decide to pick up another tang that would be my plan of attack

[jorjef]

Just curious, how big is your QT tank and is it just an empty glass box or is there some PVC etc. for fish to take cover in ? Again just curious not implying anything..

[rastaangel]

40g QT with lotsa hidding places, both PVC and chisled out dead rock. All of those tangs were seperate occasions, never at the same time. I have never had more then 3-5 fish in QT at once

[fishoholic]

The longest FW dip I did was 7min, then it looked like it was going to kill my fish so I pulled him out quick. 5min in a FW dip is a long time for a SW fish IMO.

[rayjay]

I dip the seahorses for 12 minutes unless they become completely unresponsive to touching them.
For other fish I've not had to do any since I got into seahorses so I don't know if they can go that long.

[Funky_Fish14]

I've seen a yellow tang in FW tank for 30 mins once. Have frequently seen FW dip of 10-20 mins.

[rastaangel]

I have done 10 min on fish that had a bad fluke problem but never more then that... Just wondering if anyone else does much longer?
I still dont know if im even gonna both with another or risk a possible outbreak in my tank.

[fishytime]

Ive always felt that QTing a tang in a small tank is a bad idea......typically tangs do not ship/ move well,.......plus they are stress magnets and are claustrophobic.... so one could imagine what tangs sometimes go through when we buy them..........first they are netted, put in a small bag and shaken up, completely in the dark for anywhere from 1 - 3 days.....then they are put into a LFS environment, which if QTed, means being treated chemically in a small tank before being netted again and moved out to be put on display.....being on display usually means a smallish tank with little to no live rock for comfort and high volumes of people walking by and pressing their noses up against the tank.......then someone buys the fish, so it is netted and bagged again.....we take them home and freshwater dip it and stick it into yet another small tank for a couple more weeks......then we net it again and put it in our tank.......thats a lot of stress in a relatively short amount of time for a fish that doesnt take stress too well

[rastaangel]

Ive always felt that QTing a tang in a small tank is a bad idea......typically tangs do not ship/ move well,.......plus they are stress magnets and are claustrophobic.... so one could imagine what tangs sometimes go through when we buy them..........first they are netted, put in a small bag and shaken up, completely in the dark for anywhere from 1 - 3 days.....then they are put into a LFS environment, which if QTed, means being treated chemically in a small tank before being netted again and moved out to be put on display.....being on display usually means a smallish tank with little to no live rock for comfort and high volumes of people walking by and pressing their noses up against the tank.......then someone buys the fish, so it is netted and bagged again.....we take them home and freshwater dip it and stick it into yet another small tank for a couple more weeks......then we net it again and put it in our tank.......thats a lot of stress in a relatively short amount of time for a fish that doesnt take stress too well

You make a valid point, but you missed the nail LOL
I have a large QT, bigger then most peoples displays so its not like im sticking a 6" tang in a empty 20g. My QT is full of rock and what not to try to relieve stress yet every single tang I buy dies on me weither it was a fresh import or was held in there system for a month

[doch]

I think that the nail was hit directly. A 40gal tank is way too small for any tang, and this is part of the point that Fishytime is trying to make. Tangs need space to move. If they don't have enough room to swim, this may add to the other stresses of the capture and relocation. I tend to agree with him. The less stress the better for them. I've been looking for a powder blue for quite some time now, but haven't found one that looks healthy enough, and has been in an LFS long enough for me to grab.

[rastaangel]

My 40g is a hell of alot bigger them what I see most tangs in on display at stores. But were wondering of path here LOL
1. How long can you FW dip a fish?
2. Would you do a FW dip then add the fish to your DT w/o being QTed

[whatcaneyedo]

Why freshwater dip a tang? Take your time, look around, choose a healthy specimen and plop it into your display. I've only purchased two tangs: a powder blue and a purple. Both had been in captivity for several years before I acquired them and have done well in my system ever since they were introduced. Many fish are tough to find 'used' but tangs are not one of them.

[rastaangel]

I dont have that luxury as I live atleast 2 hrs from my LFS so I cant watch it for weeks before I buy it

[marie]

The longest (and only time) I've been able to leave a fish in fresh water was about 90 sec's.....I thought I had killed it

I am in the same boat with choosing healthy fish. I am a long ways away from the nearest fish store and have to rely on someone else to choose my fish so I can't afford to not quarantine, especially after I lost half my stock to marine velvet.
That said, I quarantined and treated my Achilles successfully for 8 weeks

Here's Doofus 6.5 yrs ago, recovering from fresh water dipping and copper treatment
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/mariesnell/2005_0302quarantine0009.jpg

[whatcaneyedo]

The Total Pet (our only SW LFS) in Prince George isn't exactly the alpha omega of aquarium stores... The tangs I bought were from other hobbyists.

[rastaangel]

I have largely considered that as a option BUT most people that are selling the tangs I want are either to large for there system and thus prob to large for mine as well, selling cuz of aggression and/or they want way to much money

[dreef]

I've never dipped any of my fish..and i'm 3-1/2 hours from that store you go too :P I've had my tangs for years. I just pickup the phone and order and go to the depot..to get my treasures.

[TimT]

I have given lots of fish a 15 minute fw bath to clean them of ick, velvet and flukes. If the bath is done correctly and the fish is healthy/strong enough there is usually never a problem.

You must make sure that the water is at the same temperature, pH and has been aerated for several hours to equalize the dissolved oxygen levels. Typically well water has low to no dissolved oxygen.

If the fish goes rigid with fins erect and maybe also twitching it has gone into shock and must be removed from the fw bath immediately. Observe the fish to make sure it starts to breath properly, if it does not then gently hold the fish near a powerhead so it gets a gentle flow through it's mouth. That helps carpet surfers if they are not too far gone.

Fish will normally lay on their sides in a fw bath.

If a fish has an open wound NEVER give it a fw bath.

You are dealing with some extremely sensitive fishes. IMHO Achilles are probably the most sensitive tang available. They are followed by the powder tangs.

For whether to FW dip an Achilles tang, I would NOT dip it if all the following were true;
there was a properly sized UV sterilizer on your tank,
the temp of your system was always stable(within 0.2°f),
the fish showed no signs of ick or scratching at the store and none of it's tank mates were scratching either,
it had not gotten cold during transport.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Tim

[daniella3d]

why FW dip? it's harsh on a fish. I would do a one hour dip with Paraguard and then yes quarantine the fish and if everything is fine after 4 weeks then in the display tank.

As for how long to FW dip, as long as the fish stand it, usually not very long, no more than 20 minutes or so. Paraguard is safer and the fish usually show no sign of stress. A 40 gallons aquarium is no bigger than any 40 gallons aquarium, it is still 40 gallons. A fish need its vital room to breath and have enough oxygen. If the aquarium is overcrawded and something goes on the edge than fish die from lack of oxygen. I see it so often. This is why I don't put any more fish in my 75 gallons although it looks empty of fish.



My 40g is a hell of alot bigger them what I see most tangs in on display at stores. But were wondering of path here LOL
1. How long can you FW dip a fish?
2. Would you do a FW dip then add the fish to your DT w/o being QTed

[TimT]

I prefer to try and stay away from chemical meds whenever possible due to them usually containing carcinogenic components.

There are several advantages to a FW bath over a Paraguard bath for fish that are healthy and strong.

1. FW is free.
2. FW is non toxic
3. FW does not need to be disposed of in an environmentally safe manner
4. FW is not a carcinogen
5. FW will not stain your skin, clothes or the aquarium silicone
6. FW works no matter what the concentration
7. FW is safe for human consumption :-) Important if you have young kids.
8. FW does not leave a fish injured
9. FW does not stress a fish by burning it's gills and skin like Paraguard does.

I have observed lots of fish show no stress reaction at all when going into a FW bath. Even anthias and fairy wrasses don't freak out. I can only remember two fish going into shock out of 100's that I have given FW baths too. One was a rabbitfish and the other a pacific sailfin. I have only lost 4 or 5 due to pre existing ick infections that were quite severe. As a wholesaler I have been doing FW baths on fish for about 10 years so have done a lot of them.

If a fish is in a weakened condition due to parisitization then a hyposalinity treatment in a QT may be a better option.

[daniella3d]

Please state your reference that said that Paraguard is carcinogen and burn the skin of the fish??

I use it all the time and I never saw a fish being burned, quite the opposite. I use it to treat disease for weeks and never saw any burnt skin, not even in concentrated bath.


I prefer to try and stay away from chemical meds whenever possible due to them usually containing carcinogenic components.

There are several advantages to a FW bath over a Paraguard bath for fish that are healthy and strong.

1. FW is free.
2. FW is non toxic
3. FW does not need to be disposed of in an environmentally safe manner
4. FW is not a carcinogen
5. FW will not stain your skin, clothes or the aquarium silicone
6. FW works no matter what the concentration
7. FW is safe for human consumption :-) Important if you have young kids.
8. FW does not leave a fish injured
9. FW does not stress a fish by burning it's gills and skin like Paraguard does.

I have observed lots of fish show no stress reaction at all when going into a FW bath. Even anthias and fairy wrasses don't freak out. I can only remember two fish going into shock out of 100's that I have given FW baths too. One was a rabbitfish and the other a pacific sailfin. I have only lost 4 or 5 due to pre existing ick infections that were quite severe. As a wholesaler I have been doing FW baths on fish for about 10 years so have done a lot of them.

If a fish is in a weakened condition due to parisitization then a hyposalinity treatment in a QT may be a better option.

[poleyc]

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Ich.html

[Reefer Rob]

Fresh water dip is the most dangerous, stressful thing you can do to a fish. Been there done that... temperature, PH balance, etc etc, it wasn't pretty. Better to do a hypo salinity treatment... and carefully... if you treat at all. The only time I've lost fish is during treatments :surprise:

[rastaangel]

Fresh water dip is the most dangerous, stressful thing you can do to a fish. Been there done that... temperature, PH balance, etc etc, it wasn't pretty. Better to do a hypo salinity treatment... and carefully... if you treat at all. The only time I've lost fish is during treatments :surprise:

I tend to disagree! There are some things that can only be killed quick and effectivly by a FW dip. Case and point marine velvet isnt killed by hypo but a FW dip does it in 5 min
I have NEVER lost a fish in a dip and dipped every single fish I have ever got for 5 min or more

[MarkoD]

I dip all new humans entering my house for at least 10min.


Never a fish, seems like it would stress it out to much

[Reefer Rob]

Yes, I dipped lots of fish too. I thought it was great. Then there was the one fish... it was a heart breaker. I haven't done it since.

[Reefer Rob]

I dip all new humans entering my house for at least 10min.


Never a fish, seems like it would stress it out to much

If that's a tequila dip I'm in! :mrgreen:

[MarkoD]

If that's a tequila dip I'm in! :mrgreen:

BYOS (bring your own snorkel)

[daniella3d]

A freshwater dip will not cure broklynella, so it is not the best way to make sure a fish is parasite free I guess.

I tend to disagree! There are some things that can only be killed quick and effectivly by a FW dip. Case and point marine velvet isnt killed by hypo but a FW dip does it in 5 min
I have NEVER lost a fish in a dip and dipped every single fish I have ever got for 5 min or more

[rastaangel]

I know a FW dip isnt the be all to end all cure but thats not the point of this... Its would you add a tang to your display from the LFS with just a FW dip and no QT

[dreef]

Yes.. i don't dip and i don't have a QT.I get my fish from the same LFS you do.Some of my tangs are 4 years old,don't even know what ick looks like..call me lucky :)

[rastaangel]

Im calling you lucky, knock on wood LOL
Ive battled ick alot and lost some very beautyful fish before I QTed everything
I think they only way I will take the chance is if I find a healthy blonde naso

[daniella3d]

Then how do you know it's healthy? not just because it looks healthy does not mean it is not having the begining of something nasty that has not show up yet, why the QT.

You asked if I would put a tang in my DT with just a freshwater dip then the answer is no. I would do the FW dip and still quarantine for 4 week in observation because no dip is 100% sure.

Im calling you lucky, knock on wood LOL
Ive battled ick alot and lost some very beautyful fish before I QTed everything
I think they only way I will take the chance is if I find a healthy blonde naso

[Jan]

"You must make sure that the water is at the same temperature, pH and has been aerated for several hours to equalize the dissolved oxygen levels. Typically well water has low to no dissolved oxygen. "

Tim,do you use R/O water or tap and what do you use to equalize the PH?

[BlueWorldAquatic]

We have had good success with FW dip, but only in extreme cases.

If the fish dies from a FW dip, it was already too far gone before it already.

From my experience with FW dips, this is only really effective in parasites.

Like rats leaving a sinking ship, they drop/release because they want to survive.

A fish can survive around 20+ minutes in the FW dip, just keep an eye on them, looking for signs of stress (Darting, jumping, laying on side, heavy breathing)


Check on your QT water, is it from you DT? or do you do it fresh?

A product a lot on my customers like is Marc Weiss ImmunoVital. It really helps the fishes immune system, or from my experience at least. You can add this to your DT once a month also as a precationary measure.

Brookynella is completly different, a dip with Formalin is needed.

Ken - BWA

[rastaangel]

My QT water always comes from my display from water changes.
I have used immuno vital in my DT and QT unless im using copper

[TimT]

Hi Daniella3d,

Sorry, it took me a bit to find the references.

Please state your reference that said that Paraguard is carcinogen and burn the skin of the fish??

Here are the references for carcinogenic effects of some of Paraguard's ingredients.

Malachite Green -

"Female rats exposed to malachite green chloride had increased incidences of thyroid gland follicular cell adenoma or carcinoma and hepatocellular adenoma, and a dose-related increasing trend in mammary gland carcinoma."

taken from this link.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691506000202


Formaldehyde, which is a simple aldehyde -

"In 2011, the National Toxicology Program, an interagency program of the Department of Health and Human Services, named formaldehyde as a known human carcinogen in its 12th Report on Carcinogens "

taken from
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde


For Aldehydes -

"Cytotoxicity may also be of major importance in acetaldehyde carcinogenesis but further studies are needed to prove or disprove this assumption. For a large number of aldehydes (relevant) data on neither carcinogenicity nor genotoxicity are available. From epidemiological studies there is no convincing evidence of aldehyde exposure being related to cancer in humans."

taken from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2017217

I think it safe to assume more research needed on aldehyde carcinogenicity. However there are lots of different types of Aldehydes.


In regards to formaldehyde burning the fishes gills and skin. It has that burning effect on humans so it is safe to assume the same effect on fishes.

"When formaldehyde is present in the air at levels exceeding 0.1 ppm, some individuals may experience adverse effects such as watery eyes; burning sensations in the eyes, nose, and throat; coughing; wheezing; nausea; and skin irritation. Some people are very sensitive to formaldehyde, whereas others have no reaction to the same level of exposure."

taken from
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde


Hi Jan,

Tim,do you use R/O water or tap and what do you use to equalize the PH?

I use my Ocean Fresh Alk to increase the pH of the RO water. Ocean Fresh Alk is an aluminum free Sodium Bicarbonate. I have a Lamotte Digital pH meter for checking the pH.



Ken makes some good points.

If the fish dies from a FW dip, it was already too far gone before it already.

From my experience with FW dips, this is only really effective in parasites.

From my experience with FW baths they are good for flukes, ich, velvet, early stage of brookynella(no peeling skin/mucous layer visible). They also help with the mysterious Bali clownfish(occelaris) disease. All of which are parasites. FW baths do NOT help with intestinal worms, HLLE, Lymphocystitus and fin rot.

I am not trying to hijack the thread but from my experience the food that you feed your animals has a direct effect on their health. This is easily observed in cats and dogs. Feed them cheap food and you will go to the veterinarian$$$$ far more often. The same applies with fish, feed them a poor quality food and they won't do as well as if they had a nutritionally balanced and natural food. That is why I started to produce the Ocean Fresh Pacifica Plankton (http://www.oceanfreshaquarium.com/pacifica-plankton/). I found that the fish did much better on it than any other food I had tried. I have used it for well over 10 years to keep fish in top condition. When you feed your fish a food that is naturally high in vitamins, minerals and immuno-stimulants you don't need to use all the other food additives etc.

That being said, I am rather biased towards these products for a couple reasons; I know they work from using them myself and I am producing them in sizes suitable for sale to reef aquarists. There is my commercial disclosure. ;)

Cheers,
Tim

[daniella3d]

Although paraguard does not contain formaldeyde, so that part does not apply to paraguard. I was more refering to its carcinogenic effects on fish when used as a dip.

'ParaGuard™ is the only fish and filter safe aldehyde based (10% by weight) parasite control product available. Unlike highly toxic and difficult to use formalin based medications, ParaGuard™ contains no formaldehyde or methanol and will not alter pH.'

So basically that leave the malachite green that might be toxic but is it at such concentration and for a dip? I never had any fish show any adverse reaction when doing one hour dip in Paraguard. They did not seem stressed either and where very relaxed during the dip...not so much for freshwater dip..which seem to be so stressfull for them and often kill them.


Hi Daniella3d,

Sorry, it took me a bit to find the references.



Here are the references for carcinogenic effects of some of Paraguard's ingredients.

Tim

[rastaangel]

Kinda just answered my own question...
I picked up a very unique misbar clownfish today that was in a system with a puffer that had a obvious ick issue.
Got home and preped a FW bath for him. 2 deg warmer, .10 PH less, 5 drops methelyne blue. He sailed clean threw 25 min and didnt show any signs of stress until 33 min at which point I stopped

[AquaticFinatic]

i picked up a white cheek tang that had been in jl aquatics for 3-4 weeks from what i was told. looked fine and has been in my display tank for a week now. today he is showing signs of a few spots(white) should i pull him out and fresh dip him? i haven't got a qt big enough for him as hes over 5" long. he is in a 200g right now with my other fish. thanks :cry:

[rayjay]

Dipping the tank will only be temporary relief for it as the ich is in the tank.
He has an outbreak now due to the stress of being moved to your tank, and possibly due also to trying to establish a territory that others are not willing to give up on.
I would redo the reefscape so that they ALL have to re-establish their territory at the same time, making it easier for it to settle in.
If ich gets to be quite bad you may have to give it a dip just to give it more time to get established, but removing it to dip it is a big stressor in itself.

[TimT]

Since the tang is already in the Display tank my suggestion would be to get a UV sterilizer. Powder type tangs tend to be ick magnets... any temperature fluctuations and they get a few spots. I think a UV would do the tank well and would keep ick from overwhelming the fish.

[rayjay]

UV normally only works part of the time and is a big expense that IMO, isn't worth the money.
The problem being not all of the parasitic stages of the ich go through the UV and the fish, remaining stressed, still presents visible signs of the ich.
You DO however, lower the level of inherent zooplankton that the corals feed on as some of it goes through the UV and is killed off along with the portion of parasites that are killed.
IMO the best answer is STILL to remove the source of the stress.

[TimT]

In an ideal world it is best to try and remove the stress on a fish. It may not however be possible as it could be a health issue with the fish. The fish go through a lot stress and handling from Reef to Retail.

In the real world the Ick doesnt care if the fish is stressed or not. A fishes immune system is so compromised by the time a hobbyist sees it that providing a stress free environment wont help it much. A good analogy is to compare Ick to a mosquito. Eating a healthy diet and living stress free won't stop you from being bitten if mosquitoes are around. There are people who are mosquito magnets while others hardly get bit. I seem to be the magnet type. LoL

In a Display Tank UV works well when properly set up... flow rate and wattage. A lot of times people don't set it up properly so it does next to nothing and they figure UV doesn't work. For a 200 gallon tank I would recommend a 50 to 60watt UV with a pump that does about 500gph. I setup a Coralife Turbo Twist 36 watt with a Maxijet 1200 on a 150 gallon tank and it cleared up the ick in no time. Cost was about $250.

There is only one life stage that Ick and Velvet can be destroyed and that is the free swimming stage when they are trying to find a new host. Most tanks don't produce a lot of zooplankton so I would not risk your fish for it. Chances are most zooplankton larvae is from pods or bristle worms anyways.

Cheers,
Tim

[AquaticFinatic]

thanks timt for the advice. great info :biggrin: