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Troy F
06-20-2002, 12:32 PM
How many of you would pay more for captive bred fish? I'm sure the price would be considerably more and of course the selection is limited. Have a look at www.orafarm.com/ (http://www.orafarm.com/) and see what is available.

Oops, try that.

[ 20 June 2002, 09:02: Message edited by: Troy F ]

BCReefer
06-20-2002, 12:49 PM
Troy the link did not work for me? Anyone else?

Patrick

Troy F
06-20-2002, 01:03 PM
That should work now.

Delphinus
06-20-2002, 01:13 PM
Actually it's http://www.orafarm.com/

Personally I would like to see more of this kind of thing. I think it should be a two-way street: We as consumers should be willing and ready to pay more for captive raised; and retailers should be be willing to sell them for less than their wild-caught counterparts (whether this means subsidizing captive-raised, or artificially inflating the cost of wild-caught -- which way is the "better" ... well who knows. Retailers have to make a profit in order to stay in business .. more on this later).

I was quite disappointed to learn that C-Quest (another captive breeding facility) went under. The rumour I heard was that a cyclone, hurricane, or some kind of tropical storm basically wiped them out, they lost their broodstock, equipment was damaged, etc. and basically they just couldn't recover economically. So we lost one source of captive-raised fish. So obviously this business is rather precarious -- it's probably done more for the love of the hobby and "doing the right thing" rather than making a profit.

Ultimately, a business has to make a profit in order to be sustainable.

So, if being green is important to us, seeing captive-raised livestock over livestock that was recently plucked from the ocean, then we as consumers have to do our part, and support those businesses that are trying to offer this.

Just my $0.02 ... you asked if I was willing to pay more for this sort of thing and my answer is "yes."

[ 20 June 2002, 09:15: Message edited by: delphinus ]

Doug
06-20-2002, 02:20 PM
100% agreement guys. My clowns are all captive bred, as are my 3 bangaii. The clowns are American, :D , while the bangaii are good ole Manitoba boys & girls. :D

Tony, I keep hearing that about C-Quest, then again, some time later, I hear they are still operational. :confused:

canadawest
06-20-2002, 08:28 PM
As you could probably guess, I too am all for captive raised over wild caught.

Of course as a breeder of Bangaiis I am biased perhaps, but I do believe in the preservation of the species by reducing wild catches. My two Oscellaris clowns are captive raised.

But I too fall under the category of "price conscious" or even cheap. If my captive raised Bangaiis were being sold for twice the price of wild caughts, why would anyone (except for ethical type reasons) buy the more expensive ones?

I think that it boils down to increasing the awareness of the advantages of having captive bred livestock over their wild caught counterparts.

Troy F
06-20-2002, 10:22 PM
Posted by Andrew: If my captive raised Bangaiis were being sold for twice the price of wild caughts, why would anyone (except for ethical type reasons) buy the more expensive ones?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you pretty much answer the question in your question; for ethical reasons. You (figuratively) may also want to surmise that by buying captive bred fish and corals, you promote those businesses to carry on with their work. If those businesses are unsuccessful there may not be a hobby in the not to distant future.

The fish available at this time are pretty limited and in the case of the dottybacks, don't do much for a community tank (for the most part). However, everyone has clowns and most people have some form or another of goby genuses. There in lies the reason I posted this thread. I'm curious if you as hobbyists would look at captive bred specimens at an inflated price for the eithical reasons.

Tony, you make a great point about inflating the price of wild caught in order to subsidize the captive bred fish. I love that idea. A hefty tax wouldn't be anything new to a Canadian government.

StirCrazy
06-20-2002, 11:23 PM
let me pose another question, why do "captive raised" fish have to be more expensive that "wild caught" in most cases they are local so there is next to no shipping charge (which is about 50% or more of the cost of most imported fish) also they are supposed to be more hardy.. Meaning that there should be less die off (another reason the lfs doesn’t have to charge as much)

There is no reason that a store can't sell stuff like this for the same price or even cheaper than wild caught except for greed itself. They see an angle that they can push it as superior than a wild caught and mark the price higher, saying that you are more responsible if you buy this local raised fish.

I have a friend that breads angelfish herein town and he gets 1.00/fish. The stores he sells to mark them up to usably 6.00 to 8.00 each where wild ones are 12.00 to 14.00.
Now I know that the average angel spawn is larger than a cardinal spawn but not that much... maby 4 times the numbers. So even if you sell a fish for 10.00 there is no reason the LFS should only mark it up to 20.00 and promote locally raised fish. Instead they crank it higher than wild caught and hinder its acceptance.

I consider myself more ethical and anal than most when it comes to providing for my fish and even I would not pay an inflated price for local raised fish... Hmm I think 10% more would be my limit and that would be pushing it.

I don't know maby my thinking is backwards bbut if we were honest and charged acordingly woulden't that encourage more people to buy localy raised fish?

just a though

Steve

Troy F
06-21-2002, 01:41 AM
Steve, you are way off. The cost of raising captive bred fish is a lot more than bringing in wild caught. Have a look at the facilities that they have to keep up. Think about how much money you have in your tank, then think bigger, granted they aren't running the lighting that we are for a reef but you get the idea. Ask Andrew what he'd charge for his cardinals if he had to actually cover costs.

This isn't freshwater so the comparisons don't really hold true.

You may be willing to pay 10% more now but in a couple of years or so you'll be paying more than that. Fish may be safe a while longer but corals won't be available too much longer. That is my prediction.

BCReefer
06-21-2002, 02:03 AM
In my tank the fish are a big part of tank but I am limited to a small quantity so now I am more than willing to pay twice the rate of wild caught.

When my tank gets bigger I will still be willing to pay more but I will have to stock slower. To be a true to the hobby we should do as much as possible in conservation. I don't mean that every single item in the tank needs to 100% captaive bread, but we can at least try.

My 0.03 worth!
Patrick

Cthulhu
06-21-2002, 04:14 AM
Al my seahorses will definitely be captive bred, even if it should cost 2 or 3 times the price. For the ethic, and also becaue CB seahorses are much more easier to keep than wild caught ones.
For other fish, the only choice is usually only WC, except for the more common species like clowns. I dont think I'll be able to find CB scissortail gobies, but if I do I'll choose CB for sure.

DJ88
06-21-2002, 04:42 AM
I would pay more..

I have already looked into getting captive rasied. Trying to get a LFS to bring them in is difficult tho. Due to costs. Most people out there other than the more enlightened ;) won't pay top dollars for a captive rasied fish. Too cheap. and really don't care if it is taken from the wild.

ron101
06-21-2002, 04:44 AM
Considering we shell out 1000's on lighting, a large portion of which has to be replaced every 1-2 years I think paying 2-3 times more for captive bred fish is not out of the question.

Factor in that a healthy marine fish will outlive the average MH bulb by several times I think they are a relative bargain.

Another thing to consider is the losses associated with wild (aka drug) caught fish. These losses could potentially be drastically reduced. No more having to go through 2 or 3 fish in order to get a healthy one.

In short, I would definitely pay more for captive bred.

Ron

Bob I
06-21-2002, 04:45 AM
Big Al's here in Calgary sells tank bred in Edmonton Ocellaris Clowns, as do Pisces. They are about the same price as wild caught. I had two, and found them to be the dumbest things on earth. They had no personality at all. My wild caught ones have lots of personality. All the captive bred ones learned to do was jump out of the tank.

Big Al's also sell tank raised Maroons and Tomatoes.

Doug
06-21-2002, 09:49 AM
Then the other thing is, how do we know its actually tank bred fish were purchasing? Besides of course buying from a dealer like Inland Aquatics, which we cant do anyways.

For us here in Canada, we must rely on our lfs to bring them in.

StirCrazy
06-21-2002, 10:45 AM
Hey Troy, I would be very interested in a actualy cost breakdown to raise say 10 fish to sale size from Andrew. I know there are expensed like salt for water and another filter and such, but that is all one time purchases (aside from the salt and food) so the problem is how do we factor that cost into the price of a fish. If you spend 300.00 on equipment for a grow out tank, then sell 10 fish you have to ask 30.00/fish to recover your cost but if you sell 1000 fish then it only costs 0.30/fish..

but ya it would be interesting to get some accurat costs (not including the equipment) on raising say 10 fish. the reason I say not including equipment is that is a start up cost and while it will be factored into the final sale price it is not a direct cost. what I am looking at is cost of food, salt, power, ect...


Steve

Cthulhu
06-21-2002, 12:38 PM
raising fish can also be time consuming. Some of the things, like culturing artemia, may not be a lot of fun, so the time too has to be paid for.

In some years, when I get more experience with seahorses (I dont even have them yet.. still 3 weeks before they arive!), I'll try breeding them.

There are lots of advantages to having CB seahorses rather than WC. They are much more resistant to siseases, and they dont come in with diseases, like WC can. It must be the same thing with other fishes..

Do you really see a difference in behavior, like Bob said, that CB lack personnality?

Delphinus
06-21-2002, 01:14 PM
Personality, hmmm.

My two A. ocellaris are captive-bred. One is about 4, 5 years old and the other about 2. They are a mated pair. I never really felt that they lacked personality, until I put a ritteri into their tank. They now never leave their anemone home. So to be fair, they might still have personality but I never see them except when they dart out to catch a piece of food. The rest of the time, they are just having sex and breeding like rabbits. Yeah, it's cool, but it's not interesting to look at (there is nothing to look at. They literally are completely buried in the anemone, you can't see them at all. The anemone's interesting to look at, but the fish aren't because they're invisible. Is this making any sense? I dunno..)

My yellow tang, OTOH, which of course is wild-caught, has more than enough personality for my liking. That is, if "personality," is of course defined as "the urge to eat and eat and eat and eat eat eat. I must eat! Did I mention I must eat? DON'T FEED THAT CORAL, FEED ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!" You get the idea. It gets a little tiresome sometimes actually, that I can never feed any corals in that tank because the tang, or the shrimp, steal anything and everything. Ok, to be fair, the fish isn't as bad as the shrimp, which can be loathesome little theives sometimes. (They don't even eat the stuff they steal. It's enough satisfaction to them, just to ensure that nothing else in the tank can eat. "Oh shoot, that open brain is about to swallow a teeney tiny morsel. I MUST DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO PREVENT THIS." Stupid shrimp. Personality or no, leave my corals alone! Ok, I take that back. They're pretty to look at, they breed and provide a planktonic food source, but man, are they ever annoying little theives some days...)

Doug: I've heard conflicting rumours about C-Quest too. The thing that has me convinced, is this. There used to be a website for them, www.c-quest.com (http://www.c-quest.com) I think. That site no longer exists, but the domain was taken over by some other company. To me, that cinches it. It means they are either gone for good, or the rebuilding process has set them back so far that it wasn't ecomonically feasible to continue to pay to advertise their existence in the meantime, which is an unusual tactic for a business (it basically means they're out of business). Who knows, maybe there are other factors involved too. I thought the guy who was running it was doing so as a hobby business so-to-speak, after he had retired from his "real" vocation. Perhaps it was too much work, and he decided simply to enjoy his retirement without worrying trying to keep a barely-viable business afloat.

Starting to see some comments that to me, give credibility to my idea of artificially inflating the cost of wild-caught. If wild-caught costs $10 each, and captive bred costs $20, of course, people will gravitate towards the wild-caught. If, however, the cost of wild-caught was made to be, say $30, suddenly that $20 doesn't look so bad anymore. I think there are valid cases where wild-caught should be an option, for example, a breeder who needs genetic diversity, or perhaps a specialized hobbyist or something like that, but in those cases those people are probably willing to pay a tiny little bit extra anyways. For the mass-consumption market, captive-bred should be more than adequate. I think, anyways...

[ 21 June 2002, 09:25: Message edited by: delphinus ]

SuperFudge
06-23-2002, 12:35 PM
Steve,

Costs are Prohibitive for anything beyond our systems and not even comparable to fry born and reared in our home tanks.

A couple of years ago,I purchased the equipment to do so for a small 500 gallon operation.(my intended start up size).

After research on my own,aswell as working with N.R.C (national research council),it was clear to both of us that after labour,maintanence costs, shipping, losses, possible markets (NRC`s end) and a net profit,it just wasnt possible....with an anuall profit of $6100 per 500 gal.(average)

You could say,well,we could have 5000 gals then.
This would be beyond (our) market potential by far,as compared to our American neighbors and relating to the numbers and species that can be sucsessfully reared reliably.

The next consideration instead,was raising W/C juviniles to marketable size, this wouldve increased variety aswell as possible markets.
After headed in this direction for a while I also declined,per gallon profit is decreased with variety as they need more space for more species.
Considerable losses with the purchase of juveniles aswell coupled with the costs of importing them remained the same.

Then it just became an ethical issue for me... again,what/who was i benifitting ?
As i would still be collecting wild caught,with only a slightly higher sucsess rate than an LFS.

In the end,i will leave it up to home scale guys Such as andrew,and to our neighbors,as Troy`s link points to,and support them fully.

Marc.

[ 23 June 2002, 19:54: Message edited by: Superfudge ]

BC_Grl
06-24-2002, 10:52 PM
Yes, I may be ignorant about these matters, but... I'd go for the cheepest. To me, I don't care if it is wild-caught or not. As long as it is healthy and happy, that is all I care about. If I wasn't getting a 'superior' animal, I would only spend the extra money if I wanted to help a breeder-friend out.
That is my 2˘ worth. Sorry!

Aquattro
06-25-2002, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by BC_Grl:
Yes, I may be ignorant about these matters, but... I'd go for the cheepest. To me, I don't care if it is wild-caught or not. As long as it is healthy and happy, that is all I care about. If I wasn't getting a 'superior' animal, I would only spend the extra money if I wanted to help a breeder-friend out.
That is my 2˘ worth. Sorry!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, that's certainly a bold statement!!

DJ88
06-25-2002, 03:23 AM
Well, that's certainly a bold statement!!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is isn't it?

Jeanna,

The reason a few of us here prefer to buy captive raised animals, whether they are corals or fish is that if we don't try to make an effort to take some pressure off of nature for the creatures we take out of the ocean we won't have a hobby in the future.

We as hobbiests do this by fragging our corals and trading amonst each other wherever possible and in the case of fish, if we can buy tank raised we do.

In this new world conservation is key. We aren't the only area that is immune to this train of thought. If anything we should actively PROMOTE it.

All it takes is one politician to start something and the hobby gets closed. The sale and ownership of macro algea of all types was very nearly banned in California because of lack of knowledge by people outside of our hobby. This would have shut down live rock importation due to macro's gorwing on LR. It takes very little. With the reefs and fish populations declining we need to do our part in saving as much as we can. I am not saying the reefs are gone in a couple of years but lets try and se if we can save tehm for the future reefkeepers.

I am not saying I do it each and everytime but if I was able to buy a tank raised over a wild caught. Hands down tank raised wins. No question in my mind.

Aquattro
06-25-2002, 03:28 AM
Darren, I have a great idea for people that want a reef tank without spending the money involved.

http://www.branchs.com/

With these, you don't need the lighting, sumps, pumps or for that matter, salt. What ya think?? :D

DJ88
06-25-2002, 03:34 AM
Shiver Git!! lol

that is just tacky.. lol at least it isn't REAL coral skeletons.. lol

Aquattro
06-25-2002, 03:51 AM
Darren, I'm anxious to see this web page in particular finished. Any ETA?

http://members.shaw.ca/canreeftank/info/philo.htm

Mak
06-25-2002, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by DJ88:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, that's certainly a bold statement!!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is isn't it?

Jeanna,

The reason a few of us here prefer to buy captive raised animals, whether they are corals or fish is that if we don't try to make an effort to take some pressure off of nature for the creatures we take out of the ocean we won't have a hobby in the future.

We as hobbiests do this by fragging our corals and trading amonst each other wherever possible and in the case of fish, if we can buy tank raised we do.

In this new world conservation is key. We aren't the only area that is immune to this train of thought. If anything we should actively PROMOTE it.

All it takes is one politician to start something and the hobby gets closed. The sale and ownership of macro algea of all types was very nearly banned in California because of lack of knowledge by people outside of our hobby. This would have shut down live rock importation due to macro's gorwing on LR. It takes very little. With the reefs and fish populations declining we need to do our part in saving as much as we can. I am not saying the reefs are gone in a couple of years but lets try and se if we can save tehm for the future reefkeepers.

I am not saying I do it each and everytime but if I was able to buy a tank raised over a wild caught. Hands down tank raised wins. No question in my mind.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very nicely said DJ ;) .

I'm going to be reading up tonight on Corals and Fish that don't belong in our aquariums, cause I ALMOST bought a Carnation Coral today on an impulse buy :( .

Got any names to start off my list?

[ 25 June 2002, 00:43: Message edited by: MAK ]

Delphinus
06-25-2002, 11:33 AM
BC_Grl, you say "if it's not for a superior animal." One thing that I don't know has been emphasized yet in this thread about captive-bred, is that with certain measurable qualities, captive-bred IS superior.

The key factor is that they have adapted to life in captivity. They've known nothing else. Thus, there is no effort required in order to get them to accept foods for example. The risk is less that they carry some kind of parasite capable of bringing them down (or others).

I know this point gets hammered again and again, but it does bear repeating: the cost of wild-caught is far greater than the economic price we pay. We may pay less at the store for the fish, but the environment is sharing part of the burden with us. (Isn't that magnanimous of the environment? I think we don't thank the environment enough for what it does for us ... ;) )

Just my $0.02 ...

Dorkel Marine 1
06-28-2002, 07:05 AM
Wow this is a hot topic. Nice passion from reef raf. I'm very new to this hobby. And one thing I'm learning in this game is patience. The way I see it right now is I can wait. I can wait until I've saved enough money to buy that tank raised fish. I can wait until my tank is completely cycled. And I echo the comment by the person that said if we spend umpteen dollars on equipment then we can spend upmteen dollars on the livestock. But I can understand the budget. I'm still waiting to have my first coral. And the only reason is the budget. My tank is cycled , the readings are right on and I'm just waiting. I've waited quite awhile. But its good. It helps me realize how impulsive i am at times. So again i can wait till there's enough to buy the tank raised fish. And amen to this website. I've stayed away from some errors because of your advice and my endless reading. I just read an article on the philipines and their reefs. Man they kill a lot to get a few. But we can do what we can do. So to make a long story short. Yes I would definetly pay more. i'm gearing up slowly for some of those tank raised Bangliss, (spelling error i know), save me some andrew and I'll pay ya next year. Yuck Yuck. enough said. good topic we need to talk more over these things.
ps. They have community gardens how about community fish rearing. well I think thats already happening here with a few of you.
pss. Ya know my 5 year old son already knows what a tank raised fish is and coral. and he innocently said "That would be better." I think fish like to stay at home just like us." Now he's not aware of the big picture but an intersting opinion out of a babe. Did I say a long story.
Happy reefin. George.

BC_Grl
06-30-2002, 05:19 PM
"I have a great idea for people that want a reef tank without spending the money involved."

I have no problems spending the money needed.

I see your points re: conservation etc. And had no idea on the other points. I was only trying to say that I wouldn't spend $40 on the same fish that I could buy for $30, that's all. But when I now see there IS a difference in the 2, I would probably go for the tank-raised over the wild-caught.

[ 30 June 2002, 13:28: Message edited by: BC_Grl ]

Aquattro
06-30-2002, 05:31 PM
Jeanna, the point is that it ISN"T THE SAME FISH! The $30 fish could of been caught with cyanide, dynamite, etc. It got shipped with a whole bunch of other really stressed fish and for sure has a weakened immune system. All this means that there is a good chance the fish will perish in your tank.
I lost a powder brown tang that just wasted away. It was $50. I would gladly pay double that if a captive raised was available for that species. Something I knew hadn't encountered all the above perils. My powder brown is gone and so is the $50. I would bet $500 it was caught with cyanide. I didn't see a lot of savings in that fish.
By the time you've got your tank set up, you'll have spent thousands; and then you think buying a potentially dying fish over a captive raised is worth saving $10?? I just think that's incredible. You are, of course, entitled to your thoughts and opinions. But so am I. And I think that kind of attitude sucks and is detrimental to MY hobby.

BC_Grl
06-30-2002, 06:31 PM
christ, but that was my point: I had no idea that there was a difference. Now that I see there IS a difference, I would spend my money more wisely and buy the captive-raised.

You see, unless someone tells you that there IS a diffence, how are you to know? I did not run into how the animals were caught and treated yet in my reading. I would not knowingly buy an animal that was poisoned to be captured and mistreated in other ways just to save a few bucks. That is why I had just said before, that now I know that there is a difference, I would spend the extra money.

I originally thought that the only difference was in cost of the owner spending time, $$ on extra equipment, and other costs on breeding the animals rather than a small commission from the lfs. And I know from other hobbies in the past, it is often cheaper to buy something than to make it. And the quality is about the same. You just cannot replace the value of your time & costs...

That is also why I used the words "I may be ignorant on these matters" because I am ignorant. Not ignorant in the way you're thinking: that I don't give a damn, but ignorant in that I didn't know any better.

Wouldn't it have been better had someone questioned me why I think that way or did I know the conditions the animals were put through before flaming me? Then I could've explained that I thought the only difference was cost? And that was it?

I can understand why this is a passionate subject to you all... but what I cannot understand is why others can't explain something to someone who clearly is not knowledgeable in this particular area without making them feel like they've done a horrible wrong. That maybe I shouldn't get into this hobby since I am so incredibly heartless & cruel.

To you all: I am very sorry for my statements. I had no idea of any of the conditions of these poor animals or any of the details that has been given to me. If I had known, I wouldn't have said what I said. Should I have asked what the difference be? MAybe. But again, I only thought the diffence was in the dollar amount. Like buying a name-brand "product" over no-name...

No cheers from me.. I am very sorry. :(

Troy F
06-30-2002, 06:39 PM
Jeanna, hats off to you for looking at the issue and making an informed decision. This is a very touchy subject and I think Brad misunderstood your point in the same way that I did and that is the other kind of ignorance. Don't worry if we all don't agree everytime, as long as we can all learn from one another, the board is a success. If you learned something here then the thread was also a success.

Cheers to you Jeanna smile.gif .

BC_Grl
06-30-2002, 06:47 PM
Then would some of you please send me articles or links regarding this subject to my email address, please? I would like to print them or store them in my favourites list on the 'net. That way if I have to make this point clear to anyone, I can do it properly without saying "well, someone on the ng said this..."

Aquattro
06-30-2002, 07:09 PM
Jeanna, nothing personal against you; there are tens of thousands af saltwater hobbyists that either don't know the difference and/or don't care.
Unfortunately you put your hand up and became a target. For others reading this thread, I've met both Jeanna and her husband Andy. I believe they will become concientious hobbyists as their knowledge grows.
The unethical capture of fish is a large part of the hobby and is propagated by many/most aquarium stores.
One store owner is quoted as saying " Well, nowhere is a sign saying I DON'T sell cyanide caught fish" to a customer's concern about a recent fish loss.
This LFS buys the cheapest fish available to maximize profit without regard for any environmental issues or the end result to their customers. If a fish dies from cyanide, rhey can come buy another. And then you need to assess the damage from cyanide to the corals in the vinicint of the fishing grounds. As you are all aware, coral doesn't swim very fast. Dump some NACN in the water and the corals bath in it.

If inland breeding facilities offer an alternative to this, even at an elevated cost, we as hobbyists MUST support them. If we don't, we and our kids will end up collecting stamps as a hobby. This hobby is a sustainable resource if managed properly, but we need to do our part.