LED Lighting - DIY vs Premade Fixtures

[frozen_reef]

Hi,

I am looking at putting LED lighing in my tank, I been looking online and there are companies that have fixtures that will produce metal halide equivalent light. At the same time I would like to retro fit my existing hood, can I get the same type of intensity with a DIY kit or should I buy one from a manufacturer?

Thanks for you help.

[ponokareefer]

I'd go DIY right now. The technology is moving along so quickly that you can get more advanced LED's using a DIY setup compared to the newest fixtures. Make sure you look for the best LED's out there right now, which are made by CREE. There are a few companies out there that sell DIY equipment including a canreef sponsor out of Red Deer, modularled.ca. You don't even have to solder with modularled's equipment, making it much simpler than other companies. You'll need to do your research to determine what you need depending on your tank size and what you want to keep in it.

[sphelps]

After doing DIY I would never do it again, you really don't save any money, a little but not worth the effort. My fixture cost more than 2 radions which would probably do the exact same thing I wanted mine to. Plus it's much harder to sell a DIY fixture if you ever wanted/needed to.

[ponokareefer]

After doing DIY I would never do it again, you really don't save any money, a little but not worth the effort. My fixture cost more than 2 radions which would probably do the exact same thing I wanted mine to. Plus it's much harder to sell a DIY fixture if you ever wanted/needed to.

I'm shocked you didn't save any money on yours compared to radions. My costs are looking to be about half of any other fixture out there, and more than half on radions.

[frozen_reef]

ponakareefer what type of tank did you put LED's in?

[ponokareefer]

I am waiting on modularled to get the new HEW's in and then I will be putting them over my 125 gallon reef. I don't have any SPS, so the light demand isn't huge.

[sphelps]

I'm shocked you didn't save any money on yours compared to radions. My costs are looking to be about half of any other fixture out there, and more than half on radions.

I spent well over $1500 on mine and that's before the controller I just added. I had to do a little R&D to find out how much or certain colors I needed to add to get the effect I wanted without causing negative effects so I did buy a few more LEDs than I needed but not that much more. I will also admit I think I added more LEDs than I actually needed but again it's a somewhat unknown variable and a little experimenting is needed, all costs money. Then you have to consider the time envolved in building it, mine time was huge, if I spent the same time working some extra hours at work I would be able to buy many Radions with the extra cash. Then when you're all done you gotta go buy a $400 par meter just see what level to run the thing at.

The radions are only about $750 each, everything is done and figured out for you and you'll even find PAR reading on line for various outputs. All you have to do is just plug them in and they even come with warranty.

So it's a no brainer for me at this point but if you really enjoy spending your time building such things then it may be worth while but other than that it's hard to see an upside to DIY these days.

There's also no way you could replicate a radion for less or even close to half the cost. 120W of the latest and greatest LEDs will run you upwards of $200, 5 independent PWM drivers will run you another $200, then the heatsink, wire, fasteners, fans, grease and all the other stuff will run you over $100. So you're already over $500, then add your controller which is also wireless on the radion with nice software that anyone could use. You'd need a 5 channel Arduino controller and the ability to code in C+ language to do a standard wired version and that's already $200+. Plus think about what that will actually look like when it's done, it won't be pretty ;) And that doesn't include the nice reflector the radions have to create better color mesh and single point effect.

[toytech]

I just finished my led fixtures. Got 2 24led kits from aquastyle.com , showed up in 4 days got to pick my colors and the kits came with 24 leds heatsink , drivers , rehostats , fans /fan drivers , wire , heatsink epoxy . Both kits and shipping cost me 265 to my door .All said and done im super happy , sure there not crees but there super bright and the colors are fantastic and i dont think you could be the price.

[doch]

For a while I was thinking about DIY. Since seeing the price drop on the AI Sols, I decided to spend an extra little bit of money and have something that I KNOW will work. I vote for the Sols. Personally I think that the Radions are too gimmicky. I don't understand the need for red and green... I like the blue tint.

[StirCrazy]

Then when you're all done you gotta go buy a $400 par meter just see what level to run the thing at.



um.. you don't need to buy that and if you want one you could have bought a apogee for 99 bucks that you use your multimeter to read.

generly from what I have seen people that spend more than it would have cost to buy a set up for there tank, end up with a way better system. granted the looks might not be as good for some, but I think your wood case is nicer than any metal one I have seen.

Steve

[sphelps]

um.. you don't need to buy that and if you want one you could have bought a apogee for 99 bucks that you use your multimeter to read.

generly from what I have seen people that spend more than it would have cost to buy a set up for there tank, end up with a way better system. granted the looks might not be as good for some, but I think your wood case is nicer than any metal one I have seen.

Steve

I use to work with electrical equipment that operated in the mV range, as a result I know your typical multimeter from CT doesn't accurately measure mVs, you'll spend about $200 on a decent fluke meter to get accurate results. Then I'd question calibration among other things, seems like a decent solution however with so many unknowns already I personally wouldn't want to add anymore. In other words if you build a DIY light it might not be wise to build a DIY meter to test it. You also have to ask why apogee would charge $100 for the probe and $300 for a mV meter, you really think that mV meter is nothing special, something that could be replaced for a few bucks?

[StirCrazy]

I use to work with electrical equipment that operated in the mV range, as a result I know your typical multimeter from CT doesn't accurately measure mVs, you'll spend about $200 on a decent fluke meter to get accurate results. Then I'd question calibration among other things, seems like a decent solution however with so many unknowns already I personally wouldn't want to add anymore. In other words if you build a DIY light it might not be wise to build a DIY meter to test it. You also have to ask why apogee would charge $100 for the probe and $300 for a mV meter, you really think that mV meter is nothing special, something that could be replaced for a few bucks?


um.. I am using a fluke. you sure do make a lot of asumptions. I needed a good one for HVAC, and electronic controles for my work, also electronics has been a hoby of mine for about 20 years.. but for whats its worth, my 80 buck canuck rubber digital auto range multi meter that I bought for keeping in my automotive shop, gives the exact same reading as my FE115

Steve

[sphelps]

um.. I am using a fluke. you sure do make a lot of asumptions. I needed a good one for HVAC, and electronic controles for my work, also electronics has been a hoby of mine for about 20 years.. but for whats its worth, my 80 buck canuck rubber digital auto range multi meter that I bought for keeping in my automotive shop, gives the exact same reading as my FE115

Steve
Wasn't making any assumptions, just saying you need a decent multimeter, if you have one good for you, not everyone does....

Where did you order your sensor from Steve?

[mseepman]

This is just my opinion, and some of what I'm saying below is meant to have some humor so please take it that way.

I totally disagree that DIY isn't cheaper than manufactured. The Radions are $825 each the last time I checked and they indicated I would need 6 over my tank when I was at MACNA. $4950 (plus tax) and then I would have to spend the money to figure out how I was going to hang all of those fixtures in an attractive way. If i went with Vertex...one 72" wouldn't light my 32" wide tank so then I'm into the whole thing for $8000 or more. YIKES!!

I'm buying an Aquarium controller for the tank anyways as I'm not going to give up purchasing a controller just because the lights can control themselves. Lightening storms are cool, but like most men, my attention span is pretty short so that will grow boring pretty quick. Maybe my aquarium controller will be able to do it?

I will be into my fixture for just a hair over $2100 and a little elbow grease. This figure includes the extra module that I will have to buy with a controller to do the dimming. I will be using the same (or possibly better) CREE LED's as the Radion. It also includes the equipment I will be using to power lift the light up and down which I couldn't do with 6 Radions for any reasonable amount.
I personally can't work additional hours for my job at night so my time is just my time. Note that there is definitely a lot of time involved in making one of these, but I got more time than money so this works for me.

Lastly, can someone help me understand why anyone would need a PAR meter for a DIY light and not for a manufactured light? Did Ecotech build in a PAR meter and not tell me? Even Sanjay agrees that PAR meters do a poor job of measuring LED. I believe that as with all things in this hobby, you have to start off slow...so dim down the lights and then ramp them up over time.

[sphelps]

You don't need a par meter with most purchased fixtures because typically the company gives your the par readings so you already have your base line, plus there's quite a few people already out there taking and posting various par readings with these fixtures, you'd be somewhat redundant to take them yourself. With DIY it's not that simple, so many variable like number of LEDs, type, operating current, drivers, lenses, heat transfer, controller output, ect. You don't really have a base line and you don't know what effects over time will be. You could always guess and check but corals can be expensive experiments.

Also keep in mind comparing a typical DIY build to fixtures like radions and other high end ones isn't always a good comparison. If you're going to omit all the features that these come with then don't add that to your savings. I could also build a go cart that would be pretty fun and get me from A to B but it wouldn't be fair to say I saved $200K cause I didn't buy a Ferrari. With Radions for example will your fixture have 5 channels of PWM control for 5 colors? Will you have specialty designed reflectors? Will you have wireless control? Will you even be using the same LEDs?

Mark, for your example you should compare it to 6 AI sol modules which without a controller will cost you around the same as your DIY build.

[Lampshade]

I don't think you can compare Radions or Vertex to a DIY. Radions are nice.... but they're like a buying a Ferrari to pick up groceries with.

You can get AI SOL's, $2500 for a 6' tank up to 30" wide, 6 units, lots of power.

People argue about how there's better bulbs out etc... but at some point there is a light that works, people can't say that you need the "best" light available to grow corals. If you apply that logic to halides we'd be using 1000W street lights on our tanks and nuke everything in there.

Don't get me wrong, i love DIY stuff, i've got 200+ hours into an arduino controller that's saved me $200 maybe, that's a pretty crappy hourly rate.

Just saying that in this argument of cost efficiency of a DIY, there are premades that will be worth it once you factor in what happens if you overload a couple bulbs, or screw up a solder, etc. And in the end, your time is worth something, so unless you enjoy the time spent on a DIY, you're not saving too much.

[mseepman]

With Radions for example will your fixture have 5 channels of PWM control for 5 colors? Will you even be using the same LEDs?



Well I will have 4 channels for PWM control...only using 4 colors. As for the same LED's...they only tell us that they are using XP-G's or XP-E's (both of which is what I'm using) but they don't get into binning....I know I bought the best bins possible for all my LED's...can the same be said for them as a mass producer?

Don't get me wrong...I think their light was awesome looking. Still haven't really seen it over a tank with anything live in it. What I will give them is the link to their pumps. I will be using Vortechs and I won't be able to link my lightning storms between devices.:cry: Their wireless functionality is a little over-stated...wireless to their equipment, but nothing else so I struggle to give them too many kudos for that.

I would hate to think that after all the elbow grease I'm expending...I still only rank as a go-cart and not even a freaking KIA...give me some credit...:razz:

[sphelps]

Credit has to be earned :wink:

[Reef-Geek]

This is just my opinion, and some of what I'm saying below is meant to have some humor so please take it that way.

I totally disagree that DIY isn't cheaper than manufactured. The Radions are $825 each the last time I checked and they indicated I would need 6 over my tank when I was at MACNA. $4950 (plus tax) and then I would have to spend the money to figure out how I was going to hang all of those fixtures in an attractive way. If i went with Vertex...one 72" wouldn't light my 32" wide tank so then I'm into the whole thing for $8000 or more. YIKES!!

I'm buying an Aquarium controller for the tank anyways as I'm not going to give up purchasing a controller just because the lights can control themselves. Lightening storms are cool, but like most men, my attention span is pretty short so that will grow boring pretty quick. Maybe my aquarium controller will be able to do it?

I will be into my fixture for just a hair over $2100 and a little elbow grease. This figure includes the extra module that I will have to buy with a controller to do the dimming. I will be using the same (or possibly better) CREE LED's as the Radion. It also includes the equipment I will be using to power lift the light up and down which I couldn't do with 6 Radions for any reasonable amount.
I personally can't work additional hours for my job at night so my time is just my time. Note that there is definitely a lot of time involved in making one of these, but I got more time than money so this works for me.

Lastly, can someone help me understand why anyone would need a PAR meter for a DIY light and not for a manufactured light? Did Ecotech build in a PAR meter and not tell me? Even Sanjay agrees that PAR meters do a poor job of measuring LED. I believe that as with all things in this hobby, you have to start off slow...so dim down the lights and then ramp them up over time.

just read this, how big is your tank? as far as I know for a 4 foot tank you only need 2 radions, and that has the same par as 2 250w mh
http://www.mrsaltwatertank.com/radion/

[mseepman]

Radions do a 24" spread in each direction. Tank is going to be 84" x 32"...so we've got a few issues with achieving the spread.

[Lampshade]

I think with a DIY you will definitely be getting a more custom light for what you need, don't get me wrong. I'm looking at adding supplemental lighting to my halides, and probably going to be going DIY. That's the reason for DIY most of the time, after tools, time etc, you don't save too much money, as much as people think you do anyways.... unless you cheap out on parts, and then you end up with a cheap product.

A well built LED is well worth it in the end I believe, but as for this thread asking about cost, you won't be saving oodles of money.

[StirCrazy]

Wasn't making any assumptions, just saying you need a decent multimeter, if you have one good for you, not everyone does....

Where did you order your sensor from Steve?

direct from apogee. when I got it they were 80 bucks but that was 10ish years ago.. probably needs to be sent back for a recal. I likes that one as I could mount it to a acrylic track I built and test any tank at exactly 10" below the top of the tank while mantaining exactly a 90 degree angle.

Steve