LED Craze

[ponokareefer]

I am wondering to all those that are jumping into the LED craze that is happening, if it is really going to be worth it? There are a few points that have been briefly brought up or not at all, but have me concerned.

1. Successful fixtures haven't been out very long, so haven't been tested by actual reefers over the long haul. Will they stand up?

2. Do bulbs actually last 50,000 hours and remain effective? Or will they be very ineffective after 25,000 hours? My MH's, PC's and T5's don't burn out after a year, but I change them for good reason anyway.

3. The cost for fixtures compared to MH's and T5's is way higher right now. I can buy a decent MH or T5 fixture for less than a DIY LED kit. Are you really going to save that much on energy bills and bulb replacements to make that up?

4. While you save on not changing bulbs every year, at $5/LED, when you actually replace bulbs, are you going to be even saving money on bulbs? I need about 80 to 100 LED's over my tank, and that is $400 to $500 for the LED bulbs. That is way more than what I spend right now on replacing my current MH's and PC's.

5. I don't own a unit, but are there instructions on how to remove and replace bulbs for a pre-made unit? Aren't they soldered in and together? Personally, I'm not messing with soldering a pre-made unit or I would have just gone with a DIY unit.

[ALang]

Good points.
Am tagging along to see what every says.

[StirCrazy]

1. Successful fixtures haven't been out very long, so haven't been tested by actual reefers over the long haul. Will they stand up?

Sucessfull LED fixtures have been out for almost 7 years now.. don't know where you are getting that impression from.

2. Do bulbs actually last 50,000 hours and remain effective? Or will they be very ineffective after 25,000 hours? My MH's, PC's and T5's don't burn out after a year, but I change them for good reason anyway.

at 50,000 hrs the LEDs are said to have lost 15 to 25% of there intensity, with no color shift, so you can look at this as yes you can use them for the full rated life. will some burn out befor then.. probably, incorect use can burn them out pretty quick, but as long as you keep them cool then you should be fine.

3. The cost for fixtures compared to MH's and T5's is way higher right now. I can buy a decent MH or T5 fixture for less than a DIY LED kit. Are you really going to save that much on energy bills and bulb replacements to make that up?

I don't understand what you using for pricing.. to buy a new 2 bulb MH fixture or for me to build a DIY LED is about the same price and in some cases the LED is cheeper to build. I agree that pre-made systems are still expensive but are you adding the 10 years of bulb changes to the MH system that you wont have with the LED system... LEDs get a lot cheeper then.



5. I don't own a unit, but are there instructions on how to remove and replace bulbs for a pre-made unit? Aren't they soldered in and together? Personally, I'm not messing with soldering a pre-made unit or I would have just gone with a DIY unit.

why do you want to remove and replace bulbs?

I don't think your getting the idea behind LED set ups.

I don't know how big your tank is but to need 100 LEDs it must be pretty big. also what do you have in it?

so you can get a 96 LED kit for about 700 to 800 bucks, add say 150 for hanging stuff and heat sink well say 1000.00 finnished.

so now I got to J&Ls and buy a set up for a 48" long tank. two MH bulbs two T5's and a hanging kit. 1050.00 now that is the marinstar fixture with two giseman 13K bulbs, digital ballast, and two Uri super actinic t% bulbs. now add the bulb cost for 10 years at 240 per year total cost of this fixture is 3090.00 so three times the cost of the LED fixture. and this is not including the savings in power from both the fixture and the reduction on the load of chillers and such.

so after 10 years you buy a new LED fixture.. and good chance after 10 years you'll be buying a new MH fixture also. so worst case you save 2K.

Steve

[sphelps]

All those topics have been discussed and debated several times already so I'm not going to get into all those specifically again, as you can see already people respond aggressively with rhetorical questions rather than proving answers and comments from actual experience. I however will make a few points from my recent experience.

First off you won't notice any substantial power savings, while they do certainly use less power in comparison to some other options you won't be jumping for joy each month when you get your power bill. So if this your only reason forget it.

Next LEDs are not as bright as other options like MH, don't be fooled by PAR readings as LEDs do better as the spectrum is defined in the areas a PAR meter detects. While par may be what you're really after keep in mind you might be surprised at the overall light your tank puts out, this might actually be a benefit as many people find high light aquariums hard to look at, LEDs will fix this but to me the overall wow effect isn't there.

Not all corals will respond to LEDs that well, some seem to do very well but others show washed out color, almost like slight bleaching but not really, corals are still healthy but color is almost somewhat transparent. You may also find the overall color and effect to be somewhat artificial, hard to describe but if you compare side by side it's easy to see.

Controllable features are just gimmicks, while very intriguing you may find the features fairly useless after showing them off to all your friends. In addition the effects of such features result in a constantly changing light pattern which tends to go against stability rules, the effects in the hobby are still somewhat uncertain.

If you're into photography they aren't always ideal, I've found setting WB very difficult and contrast isn't as good as with MH.

Finally count on adding a par meter to your budget as who knows what these things actually put out now and a few years down the road. Also remember LED fixtures are like computers and what's available today will be obsolete after a year or so and of all lighting options LEDs will depreciate the most so resale will kill you.

While there are pros and cons to LEDs, I've found most people tend focus on the pros so I've focused more on the negatives just to show there are too sides.

[lastlight]

I've also been working on my new tank in the basement and umm... it is very cold in my fishroom (as I intended). I imagine my heaters would be on all the time if I was to go LED which could potentially destroy any energy savings.

[mike31154]

Don't have a LED set up for my tank yet, but have been keeping tabs on the breakneck pace of LED lighting development for several years & recently began the switch to LED bulbs for home lighting. I don't consider it a craze, the technology is maturing quickly and choices as to form, function, colour etc. are increasing daily. This is the advantage I look at when considering LEDs, the sheer flexibility of choice that's becoming available.

The CFLs (compact fluorescents) the government & energy savers have been pushing for a number of years now will soon themselves be pushed out of the market by emerging LED technology. Initially I was happy to switch from traditional filament bulbs to CFLs around the home to save a few bucks on energy, but found many of them did not last as long as advertised. Furthemore, each one contains traces of mercury & has a mini ballast built into the base. Hazardous waste each time you need to replace one. Pull one apart & you'll be amazed at what's crammed into the base, hard to imagine that they are so cheap now, considering the manufacturing complexity compared to traditional filament bulbs. Fluorescent tube fixtures are a bit better in this regard in that the ballast is separate so you're not throwing it out just because a bulb/tube burns out. To be fair, LEDs require a driver or power supply as well if you wish to run them on your AC house current since they are a DC voltage device. They should last a lot longer though, no mercury and with a little creative thinking, it is possible to run them straight from a DC voltage source such as a bank of batteries charged by a solar array, wind generator etc. No voltage conversion required other than to ensure you're using the correct level of DC voltage & current to drive the LEDs.

Look around & you'll see many of the big players slowly switching to LED technology. Automobile lighting, street lighting, factory lighting and so on. Eventually this will bring the price down to a reasonable level for the average consumer. Starting to see more high power LED E27 Edison base screw in type bulbs appearing on store shelves already. If one of these burns out, no soldering, a simple replacement like any other bulb. Although, If you pull one of these apart, you'll find the LED(s) is(are) replaceable with some soldering skills, so you don't really have to turf the whole thing into the garbage. The 'driver' built into the base of one of these can always be reused, unlike the CFL offerings. A year ago it was tough to find anything like that. The price is still up there though, discouraging people from spending their hard earned $$s on a single bulb. This will change as competition heats up & the various levels of gov't get on board with incentives to buy LED lighting vs the CFL 'craze' that's been going on for a few years now.

I recently bagged a few cool white MR16 type 4 x 1 watt bulbs along with a pile of sockets for a pretty good price on eBay. MR16 form factor is traditionally used with halogen bulbs as accent lighting but is a good candidate for aquarium lighting. Designed to run on 12 Volt DC, easily replaceable two pin plug in type bulb. Passive aluminum heat sink built into the bulb, optics included or can easily be removed/replaced by unscrewing the bezel. You could easily mix & match a bunch of these to dial in the power & colour you need for your particular system. If you have a variable power supply, you can dim them as well. All you need is one or more 12 volt DC wall worts of sufficient power to run the number of bulbs you're using.

https://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pY_n_n89UgPKWF4LWEt68x-E-orLobrInmwglHgadsPcKa_CTMLwz_rLV-5szrgxHgAfSEegzUjQ/P1040396e.JPG?psid=1

https://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pY_n_n89UgPJXmMN9Ud9yZ3BncvVIi6nR7xKS8n_-OdmdjlOB0TgB89Z86ZLdX3-fFkeav9WrDP4/P1040398e.JPG?psid=1

https://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1p1gsENSgOljIMFLRbWNEUIt2CXGhOjT5ogTSEKoK1LKIWRqc LseiY0XbvLCkv7g_nlM9fXomGIng/P1040394e.JPG?psid=1

https://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1po3LjqNt7cO_VcqCu-QELz9uJkdf9qBR2HlWe6Q0qZJDWlZHBa-Colh0ymPPNVM33WA-LopJkPY4/P1040400e.JPG?psid=1

https://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pcWCQtU1v4esOLWhEmxn3tXKPPIsaohkAggDifcQkRhhsSsB 8y_1Sh9VsTT-_rg81_GHwp2hUF18/P1040399e.JPG?psid=1

If I remember correctly I paid just over $30 for 5 of these bulbs & about $25 for 50 wire sockets, shipping was free from China. Wouldn't take a lot of DIY effort to pick up an aluminum U-channel from Princess Auto, mount the wire sockets, get a few wall worts & voila, I have a pretty decent LED fixture for my 4' tank for $500. Dimmable if I wish & bulbs easily replaced. They might not be the latest Cree LEDs, but still very bright & hard to beat for the price. Still waiting for better selection & further price drop, but in the meantime I've mounted 3 of these over my kitchen sink. 12 watts of power for some fairly bright lights to do the dishes under.

[mike31154]

I've also been working on my new tank in the basement and umm... it is very cold in my fishroom (as I intended). I imagine my heaters would be on all the time if I was to go LED which could potentially destroy any energy savings.

Some insulation around the sump in the fishroom in the winter & a Poseidon return pump to help heat the water while it's pumping away.

[ponokareefer]

Sucessfull LED fixtures have been out for almost 7 years now.. don't know where you are getting that impression from.

What fixtures are people still using that are 7 years old?



at 50,000 hrs the LEDs are said to have lost 15 to 25% of there intensity, with no color shift, so you can look at this as yes you can use them for the full rated life. will some burn out befor then.. probably, incorect use can burn them out pretty quick, but as long as you keep them cool then you should be fine.

Good to know

why do you want to remove and replace bulbs?

You just said they last 10 years. I guess you just throw the fixture out and buy a new one? What happens if a bulb burns out? Do you have to replace the whole fixture?


Steve
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[ponokareefer]

Thanks for some of the input Sphelps. One point you brought up that I have an issue with as well is the fast evolution of LED's. If one breaks or burns out in 3 years, are they even going to make that type anymore? We are on XP-G's now, are we going to be on XP-T's in 3 years and no one will carry XP-E's in 3 years? All of this doesn't matter though if you can't even change out the bulbs on a fixture.

[Cal_stir]

i built my 72 led fixture, the dimming feature is awesome, the colour temp can be controlled, i went 50% wh, 35% royal blue and 15% blue but wish i had went 40% wh, 30% rb, and 30%bl, very little heat, been running about a year now with no issues, bought 2 extra of each led type in case of failure, about the same wattage as my 4 bulb t5 ho,but less heat, much brighter and it shimmers, all LPS and soft corals thriving(i have no sps), i'm sure it will last 10 years but i'm also sure that in a few years i will have upgraded to a much larger system and there will be huge advances in lighting technology and i will use it for a gium light or sell it or something.
i do love my led light.

[Hustler]

Im pretty sceptical myself as I have to do an 8 foot tank and the costs are INSANE..... But I do know they work well and are way cheaper in the long run.... I wont be doing a diy but Im in the market for them for sure if they can be found for less than a few grand...

[mseepman]

I'm doing a DIY fixture for my new tank and I can't find a downside to LED. For all the statements of "Where are the nice tanks"...people obviously aren't looking very hard as LED has been around a long time and some amazing tanks are represented out there.
As with all trends...people try different things until they find the one that works...I guarantee the first people using MH were running things in the 6k range and thought it was "awesome".
With the right combination of bulbs and dimming, LED's can be made to fit almost anyone's color choice.

Just my 2 cents though and I encourage everyone to follow the lighting method of their choice.

[ponokareefer]

I'm doing a DIY fixture for my new tank and I can't find a downside to LED. For all the statements of "Where are the nice tanks"...people obviously aren't looking very hard as LED has been around a long time and some amazing tanks are represented out there.
As with all trends...people try different things until they find the one that works...I guarantee the first people using MH were running things in the 6k range and thought it was "awesome".
With the right combination of bulbs and dimming, LED's can be made to fit almost anyone's color choice.

Just my 2 cents though and I encourage everyone to follow the lighting method of their choice.

A lot of concerns I have are not to do with DIY fixture's. They are much simpler to modify or change and if there is an issue, you have put much less money into it. Thanks to modularled, you don't even have to solder anymore, which is a huge bonus if I ever did go this route. Are you planning on buying a bunch of extra LED's just in case you have bulbs burn out/break and the ones you are using go obsolete?

[Blom]

Im pretty sure a lot of the pre-package systems are able to be upgraded (ie remove lights/pods). I know my AI sol is, you can remove the pods from what I understand. Cant say I've taken it apart as of yet. I just thought of a point here, against the "what happens to the light in 5 /10 years" group. How many people have the same system for 10 years? Im sure there are people, but as to how many. Most of us upgrade ever other year lol

[ponokareefer]

Im pretty sure a lot of the pre-package systems are able to be upgraded (ie remove lights/pods). I know my AI sol is, you can remove the pods from what I understand. Cant say I've taken it apart as of yet. I just thought of a point here, against the "what happens to the light in 5 /10 years" group. How many people have the same system for 10 years? Im sure there are people, but as to how many. Most of us upgrade ever other year lol

With how expensive units are, I would think you would be in the minority if you are replacing them every other year. I've had mine 7 years with no issues. Also, changing out lighting fixtures seems to go against the concept of maintaining stability to a system.

[mseepman]

In regards to DIY...really there is no concern in my mind to them going obsolete. I'm using the latest XP-E and XP-G Cree's to get the best amount of light for my $ and everyone knows that the ML version has come out (new improved generation). If some of my LED's quit I would adjust accordingly. If enough quit that I needed to re-add lights, I would get another $25 driver and add whatever is the newest LED...total cost...around $60-80. In 5-10 years...I figure that's a good investment. I personally feel the drivers are more likely to give me issues than the LED's.

I don't have my house complete yet so the new tank is not up and running. I am in the middle of my LED build and will have to be patient about seeing it on a tank.

[intarsiabox]

I seem to remember the VHO craze, the MH craze, the T5 craze, the T5HO craze and LED. All have been used successfully, all have their fans and all have advantages and disadvantages. I don't really see the point of this thread you argue anything positive mentioned and seem to fishing more for vindication against LEDs than any answers. You're never going to hear all positive responses on any lighting technology and they all can work when done properly. Maybe I'm wrong but this how it's coming off as to me.

[ponokareefer]

I seem to remember the VHO craze, the MH craze, the T5 craze, the T5HO craze and LED. All have been used successfully, all have their fans and all have advantages and disadvantages. I don't really see the point of this thread you argue anything positive mentioned and seem to fishing more for vindication against LEDs than any answers. You're never going to hear all positive responses on any lighting technology and they all can work when done properly. Maybe I'm wrong but this how it's coming off as to me.

I set up this thread as I am considering LED, but have some concerns that I don't have the answers for. There has only been one concern that has been satisfied(50,000 hours).

I realize all lights have their plus's and negatives, but this is a fairly new product, and the last time it was mass produced, the company went under. There was probably a lot learned from this but there are still issues with unanswered questions. I know what I have with MH's, PC's and T5's, but I don't with LED's, so I ask questions. I want to know exactly what the negatives and positives are before I make a change.

[intarsiabox]

The bulbs may change be it better color, more efficient, etc., but the power supplies for LEDs are capable of running older or newer bulbs. Maybe not as many bulbs if you decide to change to higher wattage, but then a 250W ballast won't work so great on 400w MH's. So maybe long term a DIY system may be easier to up grade if it came to needing more drivers but a prebuilt one should have no problems if it ever needed same type bulbs replaced. I see LEDs following MH, just as there are 70,150,250,400W bulbs for different requirements (but all types of bulbs are still available), there will be 1,3,5W LED lamps available for different applications as well. LED technology is pretty old now, it's the applications of use that are new. I've seen tanks lit with LED fixtures that gave me headaches to look at and others that looked amazing. There is no clear cut answers as what is pleasing to me could be very bothersome to you.

[Hustler]

PM me the build threads...... and anyone willing to build an 8 footer LOL ill run a test for you..... I know a fair bit about Lumens and all that jazz.... and I know LEDs are here to stay even the older tech works better than new MHs if its the right bulbs in the right color order.... I want it and need it.... Im just not shelling out that kinda cash to find out my fish eat what they were trying to grow lol

[mike31154]

Maybe my initial post here (#6) was a bit long & dry so many readers just didn't bother & skipped it. The point I was trying to get across is that DIYing a LED solution for your system is getting easier all the time without having to solder or even use 'modular' LED components. More & more conventional screw in base bulbs are appearing on store shelves. Many of them now feature high power LEDs of suitable colour temperatures for our application.

If you're willing to be patient and wait or search online for vendors offering these types of bulbs at a reasonable cost, you should be able to build a suitable fixture with replaceable components using conventional bulb sockets that have been in use since the light bulb was invented. Many hobbyists have been using the PAR38 floodlights screwed into normal household sockets to light up their little slice of the ocean. If one burns out or a new improved LED appears on the market, chances are before long, another PAR38 with the new technology will be out there as well and you can switch it out without having to discard an entire fixture.

The MR16 lamps I described in my earlier post are another option. I've been watching some of the DIY LED builds with massive heat sinks & hours of soldering involved. Have a lot of respect for the patience & work they put into them & the end results are quite impressive. But it's not something I'm prepared to undertake when there are so many other, easier options appearing on the LED horizon.

[ponokareefer]

Maybe my initial post here (#6) was a bit long & dry so many readers just didn't bother & skipped it. The point I was trying to get across is that DIYing a LED solution for your system is getting easier all the time without having to solder or even use 'modular' LED components. More & more conventional screw in base bulbs are appearing on store shelves. Many of them now feature high power LEDs of suitable colour temperatures for our application.

If you're willing to be patient and wait or search online for vendors offering these types of bulbs at a reasonable cost, you should be able to build a suitable fixture with replaceable components using conventional bulb sockets that have been in use since the light bulb was invented. Many hobbyists have been using the PAR38 floodlights screwed into normal household sockets to light up their little slice of the ocean. If one burns out or a new improved LED appears on the market, chances are before long, another PAR38 with the new technology will be out there as well and you can switch it out without having to discard an entire fixture.

The MR16 lamps I described in my earlier post are another option. I've been watching some of the DIY LED builds with massive heat sinks & hours of soldering involved. Have a lot of respect for the patience & work they put into them & the end results are quite impressive. But it's not something I'm prepared to undertake when there are so many other, easier options appearing on the LED horizon.

Which companies are you referring to?

[mike31154]

Which companies are you referring to?

Regarding complete fixtures or MR16 & PAR38 lamps? I understand the AI SOL has had a significant price drop recently, so it stands to reason there will be continued downward pressure price wise with all LED items, fixtures as well as individual bulbs & discrete components such as single LEDs. Companies that don't follow the market trends will soon fall by the wayside. The big guys, such as GE, Phillips, Osram are savvy enough having been around forever, that they'll be fine. But you never know, look what happened to GM a few years ago. I'm quite surprised they've apparently bounced back they way they have.

[mike31154]

Here's a thread on Canreef featuring a nifty LED build using PAR38 lamps. Pretty much plug & play, if one burns out or you wish to change colours etc. easy to replace. Can add more at any time to further customize. Nice looking tank from what I can see.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=71390&highlight=PAR38+LED

[ponokareefer]

Thanks for the info Mike. Here is a link to a build on reefcentral using PAR38's.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1931230&highlight=par38+led

In terms of cost, they seem like they would be the cheapest out there, and easiest to do. Are their any sponsors or Canadian companies that sell PAR38's for reef tanks?

[mike31154]

Not sure about Canadian distributers at this point, I've been somewhat lazy in researching that since I'm on the MR16 kick at the moment. All lighting providers in Canada seem to be really dragging their feet in getting decent LEDs on to store shelves. This is why I'm still holding off and ordering bits & pieces though fleabay from China. I got a LED screw in bulb at London Drugs last week on a coupon so cost ended up being fairly reasonable at under $20. It's a dimmable Phillips 8 watt 470 lumens at 2700K bulb meant for household use, so not much good for our application. But it's surely only a matter of time until reasonably priced goodies are available more suited to our purpose.

This is why I continue to wait and use my current 2x250 MH & T5HO set up. If I had more disposable income, I'd have purchased a LED fixture some time ago. The EcoTech Radion is awful tempting since I run MP40 VorTech pumps, but the price is too high at the moment and in the end, I'm not convinced that the light communicating with my pump drivers is really necessary. I could buy a hell of a lot of MR16 bulbs for the price of a Radion. Yes, the pumps are costly too, but I started with a single new one & purchased the others used.

[StirCrazy]

Not sure about Canadian distributers at this point, I've been somewhat lazy in researching that since I'm on the MR16 kick at the moment. All lighting providers in Canada seem to be really dragging their feet in getting decent LEDs on to store shelves.

your not going to see a lot of canadian companies producing low cost led lighting. its a fact of economics. the canadian market is to small and our power is to cheep for them to sell a reasonable amount that why you tend to see new stuff starting to trickel in in the home lighting market but its not cheep. Home depot actualy has the new philips ones on for 15 bucks off which makes them afordable.. I have bought 10 so far and have another 4 ot 8 to go to finnish switching my house over to LED. these ones are exelent bulbs.. look yellow when there off and put out light just like a normal light bulb when there on.

if you watch the market we will start getting ones that are big sellers in the US.

I reciently ran into this issue with my smoker and the pucks I like. the crown royal pucks for the bradley are now discontinued (I bought the last 4 boxes they had in canuck rubber here) the reason being that it is not cost effective to make them for the canadian market alone and due to them being a by product of booze they are no longer alowed to be inported in to the US with out large tariffs so they are no longer making them.

it sucks, but it is a result of our cross boarder teriffs and trade agreements.

Steve

[mike31154]

Home depot actualy has the new philips ones on for 15 bucks off which makes them afordable.. I have bought 10 so far and have another 4 ot 8 to go to finnish switching my house over to LED. these ones are exelent bulbs.. look yellow when there off and put out light just like a normal light bulb when there on.
Steve

That's the exact same Phillips bulb I got at London Drugs with the coupon.

[StirCrazy]

That's the exact same Phillips bulb I got at London Drugs with the coupon.

don't need the cupon at home depot. and they extended it till into nov also now.

Steve

[ponokareefer]

Just out of curiosity, what should I be looking at for the number of LED's? For PAR38's, I have the exact same tank as the reefcentral thread, which is a 125 gallon. He suggest using 7 PAR38's. That's only 49 led's, and all XR-E's. Modularled has a kit for a 4 foot tank that has 72 LED's in it, but now carry the HO XR-E's, which, I would assume, would mean I would need less. Reading some theards on reefcentral, they recommend even higher numbers though, which is where the numbers came from my initial post. My tank is 24 inches deep, I have 2 clams, RBTA, frogspawn, and soft corals.

[mike31154]

Hard to say what each individual should be looking at with any particular LED solution, since we all have slightly different tanks & requirements with respect to the livestock we choose to keep. If someone is having success with a particular size tank that's similar to yours, especially with a PAR38 set up, you will likely be in the ballpark for your own system. The great thing about the PAR38 form factor, is you can always add another without too much rewiring. PAR38s are continuing to evolve with more and higher power emitters being installed in them all the time. Pretty sure I've seen some with 12 individual LEDs in them.

I was at the Home Depot yesterday and there are already a number of new offerings in the LED lighting section compared to when I was last there a few weeks ago. The lights Steve (StirCrazy) purchased for home lighting are currently on sale for under $13, so I picked up a couple more myself. This price would have been unheard of just a few months ago, let alone even having something of this nature on the shelf. Not for aquarium, but the writing certainly appears to be on the wall. Other lighting technologies will eventually be eclipsed by LEDs.

I mentioned I was looking at a 12 volt DC solution with my MR16 schtick. I just read that one of the LED manufacturers is actually working on an AC powered LED, no driver required. Most folks may not be aware of the fact that conversion of AC to DC to run LEDs (DC devices) results in a 15 to 30% power loss in the process. So each of those Meanwells, buck pucks or whatever driver you use, is consuming extra power that would be better utilized using a straight DC voltage source.

I just ordered a couple of these to see how they may work:

https://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pQ7PSDIjjYSN3xJGYkQCZUcMGDueNzt3w59pvo6mxENIMkAu kZEpIxpPZPB0JS4mKUPW_4Ikpv0w/10WattLED.jpg?psid=1

They are 10 watt Cool White LEDS & the price is right for experimenting. Chips similar to these although at 50 & 100 watts look to be the ones used in the Ecoxotic Cannon type LED lights that cost a freakin' fortune. By buying these chips yourself, with the reflector & lens assemblies, you can build something similar for less than $50. I got two sets of two of these for $21. The reason I chose the 10 watt jobs is again, they can run directly off 12 volts DC. Might be wise to add a regulator/driver to ensure the voltage & current does not deviate too far off the 12 volt nominal voltage. If this ends up working well, I may ditch the MR16 build and do this instead, or a combo. To me, the craze in DIY LEDs seems to be single Cree emitters in the 3 watt range. Not sure everyone needs that much light and am trying to see if alternatives such as this are viable.

[StirCrazy]

. Most folks may not be aware of the fact that conversion of AC to DC to run LEDs (DC devices) results in a 15 to 30% power loss in the process. .

I think you got that backwards Mike, generaly going to DC is much more efficient. for example changing your furnace from a 120V fan to a 12V unit will save you about 25% on your power consumption due to your furnace. if you go with a varable 12V fan the savings are even more.

the main reason for having AC is the ability to change its voltage easy and it carries over long distances better.

I think the man drive for developing AC Line voltage driven LEDs is cost. no ballast needed, can be dimmed with a simple wall dimmer from home depot ect.....

Steve

[mike31154]

Sorry, I simply meant to highlight that the voltage conversion process itself uses some power, not that DC is less efficient. Efficiency depends on the individual device design & usage regardless whether it's designed for AC or DC. Even the conversion process from DC to AC, using an inverter, loses some efficiency. The inverter robs some power to do its job. While the 12VDC furnace fan you mention may be more efficient, you still need a device (transformer/rectifier) to bring your 120VAC down to the 12VDC. The transformer/rectifier uses some power itself, not much mind you, but if you had a 12VDC supply in your home home & could ditch the TRU, you would run even more efficiently, saving additional power over the long term.

Ideally the grid would provide us with both AC & DC, this way we could choose to run either type of device without converting the voltage using drivers, xformers, rectifiers, power supplies, etc. in our home. Not that far fetched these days even. The province of Manitoba has the distinction of having some of the longest DC power transmission lines in the world. Trouble is, they convert it back into AC before connecting it to the grid since this has been the standard in homes since the dawn of the electrical age. People with solar/wind/micro-hydro power that are also still connected to the grid already have this option to an extent, depending on the capacity of their home power genreation system. This is why I'm thinking of getting a solar array & some batteries. I already have a small wind generator, but haven't set it up yet. Once set up I can run DC devices such as my VorTechs from the battery bank using 24 VDC with 12 VDC as backup and also a certain amount of my LED lighting straight from the DC source. Come to think of it, I believe the MR16 LED lamps I have already handle either 12VAC or 12VDC. An old MR16 LED I salvaged out of a fixture was polarity sensitive, I had to plug it into the socket the correct way, my new ones automatically sense, so they're foolproof.

Here's a link to a pretty good article about the development & usage of AC LEDs. A little technical in parts, but plenty of less complex info as well.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/features/3/5/2

[StirCrazy]

Here's a link to a pretty good article about the development & usage of AC LEDs. A little technical in parts, but some plenty of less complex info as well.

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/features/3/5/2

good article, not technical at all. I was wondering how they would overcome the 60hrtz flicker, but I see they do add a capacitor which is basicly converting the wave form to a flatter output which will simulate a form of a DC signal, reducing the effect of the flicker.

this does show a lot of prommis especialy in lenght of runs, if they run the two side wave form they basicly have 60V at 15 amps X2 so essentualy you could run 300 3watt LEDs in one string. and see a power savings of about 4% if I am reading it right, as that is the average 12V driver inefficiency. in bigger led's like 100 watt units that are used for arena lighting and such you would realize a much larger power savings.

imagine 3 or 4 100watt briglux LEDs over your tank for lighting.. :mrgreen:

[evaneatspie555]

i was just wondering why led is soo expensive

[ponokareefer]

i was just wondering why led is soo expensive

It's a new technology offering a lot of advantages so has high demand.
Since it is newer, it is not mass produced to the extend of other lighting options, so availability is not high.

So, high demand plus low quantity equals really high price. As more and more companies produce it and more consumers buy it, it will be more widely mass produced and costs will eventually come down.

[evaneatspie555]

It's a new technology offering a lot of advantages so has high demand.
Since it is newer, it is not mass produced to the extend of other lighting options, so availability is not high.

So, high demand plus low quantity equals really high price. As more and more companies produce it and more consumers buy it, it will be more widely mass produced and costs will eventually come down.
thank you tat deff helped :)

[Veng68]

I actually want to try a Kessil Canon to see how it compares to my 150 MH.

http://kessil.com/products/a150_led_aquarium_light.php

Cheers,
Vic

[Samw]

don't need the cupon at home depot. and they extended it till into nov also now.

Steve

Too bad I missed the half price sale by a week. Those $15 one are now priced back to $30. I wanted one so I bought one tonight at full price. I like it. Many Home Depots were out of stock due to the sale. I also bought a 3W LED GU10 replacement and a 3W LED Chandelier replaceennt. I like these as well.

Philips AmbientLED 12W

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/12w-led-a-dimmable-soft-white/926038

3W LED Chandelier

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/3w-led-chandelier-dimmable-soft-white/926044

[StirCrazy]

Too bad I missed the half price sale by a week. Those $15 one are now priced back to $30. I wanted one so I bought one tonight at full price. I like it. Many Home Depots were out of stock due to the sale. I also bought a 3W LED GU10 replacement and a 3W LED Chandelier replaceennt. I like these as well.

Philips AmbientLED 12W

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/12w-led-a-dimmable-soft-white/926038

3W LED Chandelier

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/3w-led-chandelier-dimmable-soft-white/926044

Sam, would the chandelier one be good for a dining room with a 5 light chandelier? ya I was hoping the sale would extend to dec also... I bought 10 of the LEDs alread and I need 10 more :rolleyes:


Steve

[martinmcnally]

You right that you do loose some power in the AC DC conversion process of course. Every electrical component is going to draw power. However you talk about using a direct DC source. The only direct DC source available without AC DC conversion is a battery! If you dont have AC LEDs and you dont want to use batteries your only other option is an AC DC converter.

The 30% inefficiency is way off.

Mean Wells use 12% of their power consumption to generate DC (ELN-60-48D or P version) and Inventronics are slightly better using only 7% (75W version).

[mike31154]

Sam, would the chandelier one be good for a dining room with a 5 light chandelier? ya I was hoping the sale would extend to dec also... I bought 10 of the LEDs alread and I need 10 more :rolleyes:


Steve

At Costco in Kelowna yesterday they had some 4 watt chandelier type LED lamps in 3 packs. I think they were actually Cree too. $19.99 IIRC. Don't youse have a Costco in Kamloops? Must make it a point to check out that location next time I'm up there.

[mike31154]

With respect to running LEDs on AC or DC. Note that the article I linked to in an earlier post says that LEDs are 'usually' considered to be DC devices. LEDs are nothing more than diodes which happen to emit light. Diodes are commonly used in any number of circuits whether AC or DC. They will conduct when voltage goes positive & block current when it goes negative. They're used in a bridge circuit configuration in most power supplies to rectify an AC signal to DC. A bridge circuit consists of 4 diodes. By hooking them together in this manner the result is a DC output with some 'ripple', so not entirely pure DC voltage. The ripple or noise is minimized by further filtering of the signal using resistors, coils & capacitors.

Therefore, you can in theory run almost any LED on an AC signal, it does not necessarily have to be specifically designed for AC. However, the same way you need to limit the voltage & current when using a DC supply or driver, you need to ensure any AC signal used does not exceed the diode's or LED's maximum current, or it won't live very long. The diode must also be able to handle the reverse voltage while blocking the signal when it goes negative. Depending on the frequency of the AC signal (60Hz in the case of our homes), you will not even perceive that the LED is actually turning off & on 60 times a second. The average human eye can not perceive a flicker at that frequency. That's one of the reasons 60 Hz is used to supply our homes with power. Should that number ever drop into the 40 Hz or lower range, you will start to see a flicker in most lighting, including incandescent & some flourescents.

There are plenty of applications where AC, or for better efficiency, PWM (pulse width modulated) signals are used to drive LEDs. This can save power, reduce heat & increase the life of LEDs driven that way since the power to the LED is actually switched on and off at a high frequency. The main difference between AC & PWM is that the AC is a nice curved sine wave going from positive to negative through a zero reference, whereas a PWM signal is more analogous to a square wave going form zero to whatever the nominal positive voltage is, then back to zero. Our house AC goes from zero to 120, back through zero to -120 and so on. Clearly 120 volts either way would quickly fry any LED in short order. This is why we use some sort of transformer/rectifier or driver to bring that voltage/current down for most LED applications.

Using an AC or PWM signal to power our tank LEDs makes little sense, since we want our livestock, mainly coral to get maximum exposure to the light source and switching to LEDs from MH or T5 is already saving us a bundle in power. We don't want or need to turn the LEDs ON/OFF in rapid succession for our purpose. It does however make sense in small battery powered devices such as headlamps or flashlights, where we want to maximize battery life. Using a PWM in such a device turns the LED off & on rapidly, inperceptible to the eye, but saving power since the LED is turned off for half the time.

Here's an interesting tidbit on the concept. A couple of years ago during a backcountry ski trip, one our ski companions came back inside after dark saying he perceived some sort of strobe effect while watching the snow fall with his Black Diamond LED headlamp. Needless to say we ridiculed him, getting old, too much alcohol, you get the idea. Bruce insisted that he was sober & after some coaxing got a few of us to go out & verify that he was not going bonkers. Sure enough, there was the strobe effect! Back inside we went & started wondering whether we were all seeing things. After some discussion, more beer, wine, single malt scotch, we finally came to the conclusion that BD is using some sort of oscillator circuit (or micro inverter) in the headlamp to turn the LEDs on & off rapidly. Too rapid for the eye to see normally, but the falling snow somehow enabled us to percieve the flicker or strobe, sort of like a helicopter blade when filmed. Personally I found it difficult to believe BD would go to those lengths to extend battery life in something like a headlamp. But it is a competitive market and out in the boonies, where a headlamp could get you back home, you want to get the most out of those 3 AAA batteries. Bruce actually contacted BD after his return & they confirmed that there was indeed a PWM circuit in the headlamp.

Ha, what a saga. If you read all of that, thanks, it certainly took a while to put down.

[StirCrazy]

At Costco in Kelowna yesterday they had some 4 watt chandelier type LED lamps in 3 packs. I think they were actually Cree too. $19.99 IIRC. Don't youse have a Costco in Kamloops? Must make it a point to check out that location next time I'm up there.

ya I have been looking at thoes, but untill i see them in use they can sit on the shelf as they are cool white and I don't want blue light in my dinning room. the ones that philips makes are warm white.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Depending on the frequency of the AC signal (60Hz in the case of our homes), you will not even perceive that the LED is actually turning off & on 60 times a second. The average human eye can not perceive a flicker at that frequency. That's one of the reasons 60 Hz is used to supply our homes with power. Should that number ever drop into the 40 Hz or lower range, you will start to see a flicker in most lighting, including incandescent & some flourescents.




actually you will see a horrible flicker with the LEDs, and yes you see the flicker on a florescent, it is a bout a 50/50 toss up between people who it bothers and who it doesn't. I never knew it bothered me until I upgraded all my fluorescent to electronic ballasts now I really notice the 60 Hertz flicker on old fixtures. Digital or electronic florescent ballasts are why people don't see this flicker at all anymore as it raises the Hertz to 20,000 or higher. so old people like me who remember when electronic ballasts were a thing only the rich an famous could afford :mrgreen:

in the case of LEDs they show the flicker even more because they only produce light on one of the wave lengths of a cycle (where every other light uses both sides of the wave, so they are already off 1/2 the time on a ac signal, so this intensifies the 60 Hertz flicker.

you will have to be down to about 40 or 30 Hertz before an incandescent will show a noticeable flicker and for them they are not actually turning on and off but rather a slight dimming as the element cools. I have had a 40 watt bulb down to 25 Hertz and while after a bit it would be annoying, it was not really a flicker but rather it would dim and bright dim and bright, but fading between the two extremes not on off

Steve

[Samw]

Sam, would the chandelier one be good for a dining room with a 5 light chandelier? ya I was hoping the sale would extend to dec also... I bought 10 of the LEDs alread and I need 10 more :rolleyes:


Steve


Hi Steve. I think you will like them. But best buy 1 and see for yourself or see if your nearest HD has demos on the floor.

[mike31154]

actually you will see a horrible flicker with the LEDs, and yes you see the flicker on a florescent, it is a bout a 50/50 toss up between people who it bothers and who it doesn't. I never knew it bothered me until I upgraded all my fluorescent to electronic ballasts now I really notice the 60 Hertz flicker on old fixtures. Digital or electronic florescent ballasts are why people don't see this flicker at all anymore as it raises the Hertz to 20,000 or higher. so old people like me who remember when electronic ballasts were a thing only the rich an famous could afford :mrgreen:

in the case of LEDs they show the flicker even more because they only produce light on one of the wave lengths of a cycle (where every other light uses both sides of the wave, so they are already off 1/2 the time on a ac signal, so this intensifies the 60 Hertz flicker.

you will have to be down to about 40 or 30 Hertz before an incandescent will show a noticeable flicker and for them they are not actually turning on and off but rather a slight dimming as the element cools. I have had a 40 watt bulb down to 25 Hertz and while after a bit it would be annoying, it was not really a flicker but rather it would dim and bright dim and bright, but fading between the two extremes not on off

Steve

You have sensitive eyes then. I ran the 12 volt DC MR16 4 watt LEDs I got off both a 12 Volt AC wall wort & a 12 Volt DC one which is what they are currently running on. Did not see a flicker with the 12 VAC supply, but there was quite an audible 60 Hz buzz, so decided not to stay with that scenario, since there's no point trying to save power over my kitchen sink. Three MR16 bulbs at 4 watts each are already providing way more light than the 4 old halogen ones without having to run the LEDs on half cycle.

Ha, ha, since you notice the 60 Hz flicker of light fixtures, you'd really be knackered in Europe then, where they deliver the 220 Volt AC line power at only 50 Hz. You'd have a never ending headache from your lights.

[StirCrazy]

Ha, ha, since you notice the 60 Hz flicker of light fixtures, you'd really be knackered in Europe then, where they deliver the 220 Volt AC line power at only 50 Hz. You'd have a never ending headache from your lights.

ya, but in the three years total I have spent in europ, middle east and such, a lot lighting was halogen or incadesent. they also have been using electronic ballasts for there florescent way longer than us, so realy it isn't bad.

lots of peopel are sensitive to the 60 hrtz they just don't realize it. lot of headaches and ect from office enviorments and such.

Steve

[Seth81]

With the dimmable LED drivers they have now boasting 92% efficency, I'm not too sure why anyone would bother going AC. I just finished my DIY CREE XM-L LED fixtures, with some Royal Blues, they are sooo much brighter then I expected! Now to connect them up to my PLC and program a day/night sequence :biggrin: