Wild Seahorses @ J&L??!!

[deano]

What's with J&L selling wild caught seahorses? It's not as if captive bred seahorses are not available! It's nice to see that they sell ORA fish, but the wild seahorse thing is nothing to be proud of.

[Beverly]

Don't get me started on this topic :evil:

Captive bred seahorse can found in Canada at:

http://www.seanic.ca/ (bought mine here)

http://www.aquaparadice.com/

The best board for seahorse info is:

http://www.seahorse.org/

Next best SH board is:

http://www.syngnathid.org/

[Quinn]

What's "certified collection" all about? Aren't seahorses endangered regardless?

[saltcreep]

It's called price. This whole issue of CB versus WC will be debated for a long time to come. Again it's called price. Generally WC are cheaper than CB. Sorry to be blunt but the majority of the hobbyists look at the price before all else.

[whaase]

Why are so many seahorses removed from the wild? I've only known of a couple people to have them.... just wondering where they all go?

Walter

[EmilyB]

Why are so many seahorses removed from the wild? I've only known of a couple people to have them.... just wondering where they all go?

Walter

China for one place

http://www.american.edu/TED/SEAHORSE.HTM

[saltcreep]

Estimates indicate that about 2% of all wild collected seahorses are destined for the aquarium trade...the balance is for "traditional chinese medicine".

[whaase]

Estimates indicate that about 2% of all wild collected seahorses are destined for the aquarium trade...the balance is for "traditional chinese medicine".

:bad-word:

Walter

[naesco]

If they are in fact wild, J&L is being totally irresponsible and we all need to let them know that.
Next time they will think twice about ordering wild.

[saltcreep]

Irresponsible...those could be MAC certified at source. Apparantly coming from a certified collection area with sustainable methods. Get the whole picture first before you condemn them.

[Quinn]

MAC. :rolleyes:

We already had a good discussion about the wholesalers and retailers and respect from us hobbyists. It had something to do with profits versus sustainability and livestock health...

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Alot of people seem to make alot of comments that are based on little first hand knowledge, alot of "fancy" talk if you ask me.....

[Quinn]

Where's the fancy talk.

I did some quick research and found that while generally seahorses are not considered to be endangered, their numbers are declining rapidly. Several species are in fact on the Red List. As noted previously, the majority of these are used in traditional medicines (hey another good use for cloning). The Philippines has the most money invested in the seahorse trade - and we all know where MAC does most of its work in SE Asia... this is an animal that is relatively easy to breed in captivity. There is no need to import them from the wild, especially with the low success rates I would expect most seahorse keepers experience.

Your very own UBC is part of http://www.projectseahorse.org, as is Guylian, one of the world's largest and most well-known chocolate manufacturers - looks like only those crazy greens are in on this one eh? Maybe you're the one with "little knowledge", Kyle.

[StirCrazy]

If they are in fact wild, J&L is being totally irresponsible and we all need to let them know that.
Next time they will think twice about ordering wild.

ya lets get them :rolleyes:

[StirCrazy]

Estimates indicate that about 2% of all wild collected seahorses are destined for the aquarium trade...the balance is for "traditional chinese medicine".

if this is infact a true estimate then my position would be that the hobby is having no impact on the population whats so ever and that maybe we should be banning the chineese from harvisting them.

Steve

[Beverly]

Your very own UBC is part of http://www.projectseahorse.org, as is Guylian, one of the world's largest and most well-known chocolate manufacturers - looks like only those crazy greens are in on this one eh?

On the sh.org board, very little positive is said about Project Seahorse. They are one of the most influential bodies in the Cites evaluation of seahorses, yet they are not quite as knowledgeable as they claim to be.

One of the Cites proposals they have made is to make it illegal to catch SHs under 4", regardless of a particular species adult size. Dwarf SHs, for example, are only an inch in length at adult size, yet they are not endangered. The SHs I keep, H. whitei, only grow to 4" in length, so this species would not be available for collection at all, and as far as I know they are not endangered. There are other a few other species whose adult size is 4" or under and all of them would be exempt from collection.

Not that I am in favour of mass collection of wild seahorses at all. But if there are to be breeding programs around the world to lessen the impact of SHs used for TCM and of SHs for the aquarium trade, there must be some wild collection at various points to ensure genetic variation in the captive bred animals, especially for those in the aquarium trade.

JMO.

[saltcreep]

There is still going to be wild harvest of horses even after CITES listing takes affect in May. Harvest numbers will be controlled by quotas. Even after May WC horses should still be available.

The point I was trying to make WRT to MAC, was that, why should we jump to conclusions and condemn a store for having these animals for sale. Any item that is harvested in a sustainable manner should be okay for sale, in simplistic terms. Maybe these horses came from a certified supplier and were certified through their facility. Shouldn't be a problem to me.

[Beverly]

Any item that is harvested in a sustainable manner should be okay for sale, in simplistic terms. Maybe these horses came from a certified supplier and were certified through their facility. Shouldn't be a problem to me.

One of the problems of keeping wild caught SHs is that they are hard to feed. Initially, they need live food which may not be readily available to many hobbiests. Brine shrimp, while easy to cultivate at home, are not a nutritious meal for SHs. Pods that have been given the opportunity to grow in a refug may be good for the short term, but WC SHs, who are great if slow-moving hunters, will quickly consume them.

Training WC SHs to accept dead food, such as mysis and PE mysis in particular which is highest in HUFAs, is hugely time consuming and often frustrating. Not every hobbiest will have the patience or perhaps even the knowledge to know how to train WCs to eat dead foods.

Unfortunately, too, WC SHs can come with difficult to diagnose health problems.

Ultimately, both lack of proper feeding and inability to treat possible illness can easily lead to the death of WC SHs for many new hobbiests.

I know many of us have inadvertently killed marine fish through ignorance. I know I have and that sucks to me :sad: SHs are more specific in their requirements than, say, clownfish or even angelfish, therefore much more thought must be put into the acquisition of WC SHs than with "normal" marine fish, or with CB SHs that are already trained to eat dead foods.

IMO, wild caught seahorses should be left to those who have studied in great detail the care of the species they intend to keep and be well prepared for difficulties in caring for them.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Where's the fancy talk.

Please re-read my original comment, and then read your opening comment right below it....
thats what Im talking about, I am very well aware of the things going on in this industry as is Saltcreep, you on the other hand, as you have stated, have done some "quick" research and have jumped to conclusions without knowing the whole picture(this is done very frequently on boards such as this). I wouldnt expect you to know everything that goes on in this industry as you are a hobbiest, not dealing with the business end. Being in the business end I make a point of knowing as much as I can about whats going on in this industry, you could say it is detrimental for me to do so.... Instead of jumping into something that you dont have the whole picture of, it would be a good idea to ask someone that does know the whole picture as Saltcreep does, he hasnt done some quick reasearch, he has dedicated a large portion of his life to know what is going on, he is "in the know" Reading a few pages on the internet does not put you in the know. Please dont take offense as I think it is good that hobbiests like you are concerned about the welfare of our beloved marine life, but I think it would be wise to ask someone in the know, before jumping to conclusions... Look at Saltcreeps comments, he knows what he is talking about, Im not saying that you dont, Im saying people are making comments and passing acusations without haveing the whole picture. And Steve, what you said would be a dream come true, especially since the seahorses that are used in TCM have no medicinal value, traditional hokus pokus...
And naesco, I think asking questions before making acusations would be of great benifit to gain a better understanding of the whole picture, if you had the whole picture you would realize that sustainable harvesting of wildcaught marine life is a very good thing for this hobby, and for the enviroment. And I think that the selling of WC seahorses collected in a sustainable way should be handled with care, I feel it is the stores and the hobbiests responsibility to make sure they are able to be cared for in the best manner possible, unfortunatly this isnt always the case....

[saltcreep]

Ah Beverly, the whole point of this thread was the issue of a LFS having WC horses for sale. I am trying to play devil's advocate with this. I have suggested that if the collection is "sustainable" what is the problem. People seem to light their hair on fire (no I'm not suggesting you are) with issues such as these. This issue seems to revolve back to an unsuitable species list (USL).

After a late night discussion (and many beverages) with two of the owners of the larger wholesale companies on the US, they started to change my mind on this subject. If collection is done, for any species of fish or invert, in a sustainable method (stress the sustainable) does it matter if those species die in a short time in an aquarium? After all, with sustainable collection, the wild populations would support this collection. Don't forget a great majority of all collected fish die even before they reach your home.

Now again, the point I was making...why condemn a store for having an item, nevermind care requirements, without knowing how it was collected?

[Beverly]

Don't forget a great majority of all collected fish die even before they reach your home.

Point well taken, even if a particular species is collected by a sustainable method, and notwithstanding the deaths of animals in our home aquaria due to ignorance.

[Quinn]

Please re-read my original comment, and then read your opening comment right below it....
thats what Im talking about, I am very well aware of the things going on in this industry as is Saltcreep, you on the other hand, as you have stated, have done some "quick" research and have jumped to conclusions without knowing the whole picture(this is done very frequently on boards such as this). I wouldnt expect you to know everything that goes on in this industry as you are a hobbiest, not dealing with the business end. Being in the business end I make a point of knowing as much as I can about whats going on in this industry, you could say it is detrimental for me to do so.... Instead of jumping into something that you dont have the whole picture of, it would be a good idea to ask someone that does know the whole picture as Saltcreep does, he hasnt done some quick reasearch, he has dedicated a large portion of his life to know what is going on, he is "in the know" Reading a few pages on the internet does not put you in the know. Please dont take offense as I think it is good that hobbiests like you are concerned about the welfare of our beloved marine life, but I think it would be wise to ask someone in the know, before jumping to conclusions... Look at Saltcreeps comments, he knows what he is talking about, Im not saying that you dont, Im saying people are making comments and passing acusations without haveing the whole picture. And Steve, what you said would be a dream come true, especially since the seahorses that are used in TCM have no medicinal value, traditional hokus pokus...


No offense to him, but Saltcreep is part of the industry. Therefore he may or may not have a biased view. Certainly he makes some good points.

My "quick research" could be referred to in academic communities as a literature synthesis, or secondary research. Certainly it was not as complete as one would like, and in fact is not a synthesis at all, since I only have one source, which as Bev has pointed out may not be particularly reputable. However my source has undoubtedly drawn their data from a wide variety of sources (a synthesis), and has participated in a great deal of field research and theorizing on the trade, something that I doubt any of us have done. As Saltcreep indicates, he is only now beginning to think about this area. You are making a fundamental mistake in assuming that just because someone has spent a lot of time in an area that they are an "expert". As for firsthand knowledge, that makes up a relatively small portion of the "knowledge" available to us. If you look at any academic paper, be it in the area of criminology, political science, psychology, biology or medicine, you will find at the end a great number of references, ie. not firsthand knowledge, simply references to references to references of firsthand knowledge. If research is fancy talk to you, well...

I certainly do not feel that my ten-minute post is worthy of recognition for its carefully researched and cited data. Unfortunately I don't have time to write a paper on the state of seahorses globally at this juncture. My point was that the recognized authority on endangered species globally (the International Union for Conservation of Nature; IUCN) recognizes the rarity of certain seahorse species. Given that the average hobbyist who is buying seahorses couldn't give a damn about what species they have, the stores should attempt to stock solely captive-bred animals, since it is an option in this case. Likewise with animals like clownfish, certain gobies, damsels, angelfishes, etc. I don't ever believe this hobby/industry will be completely free of animals deaths due to poor handling and maintenance practice, but we should at least attempt to use animals that are not at risk.

Agreeing with Saltcreep, if these animals are from a "certified" collector, perhaps located in an area, collecting a species that is not threatened, then we can't complain all that much. But enough concerns over the MAC certification process have been raised in the past. The point is that importation of these animals is relatively needless.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

I guess the point I was trying to make was that a few people were jumping the gun and making harsh acusations and condeming a store for something that they dont have the whole picture of. I doubt many hobbiests have spent even many hours researching the seahorse subject and situation, their probably are a few that have studied the situation in depth as they seem to be very devoted to seahorse husbandry. Then you have some members that are in the industry and are, "in the know", they have dedicated days, months, years, to research, not hours..... These individuals usually have a much clearer pic of the industry and are a great resource for hobbiests to draw knowledge from. When you are on a first name basis with alot of the biggest players in this industry,(the folks who have touched almost every fish in your tanks) you get a sense of where the hobby is going, and what the situations are. I wouldnt refer to Saltcreeps view as biased, I would call it an educated view. Trying not to be pompas, the simple fact is that I know alot more about whats going on in this industry than you do, as does Saltcreep. Its not meant to be an insult at all, because of our involvement in the industry, and dedication to it, we have access to information that you do not. If you read every article on the planet on the situation, we would still know more than you about it as we have "inside" knowledge.(I originaly meant to use the phrase "inside" knowledge, not first hand) I was just trying to make a simple point with too many words. (trying to walk lightly...)
Please dont take offense, if we didnt know more than you, we wouldnt be doing our jobs very well....
There are a few industry players that wont even visit this board anymore because of the politicts, and stubborn uninformed opinions.... (I take it with a grain of salt, no skin off my butt :mrgreen: )
If you were good at your job, and someone who has little or no experience in your field of work comparitively repeatedly told you that you dont know what your talking about(by repeatedly arguing fact), and they know whats up after dedicating a millionth of the time you have to research, you would get annoyed too

[Quinn]

Certainly Saltcreep knows more about this industry as a whole than I do. You may well know more also, although no one really knows much about you or your company so I will reserve judgement... :neutral:

However, while some industry members may be more "in the know" about the industry itself, I would not be so quick to assert that they are more "in the know" on the subject of conservation, the true effect of the trade on wild populations, etc. As far as seahorses go, perhaps Bev knows more about these animals than both of you, even though you know more about the trade in these animals. And how many LFS employees and so on are there out there that don't even know how to differentiate between A. ocellaris and A. percula? I would speculate that a very small proportion of industry members truly know what they are talking about. It's absurd to suggest that industry members inherently know more about the hobby as a whole.

This is comparable to police, who think they are somehow more skilled at identifying criminals and understanding the phenomenon of crime than lawyers, judges and criminologists, who have in fact made the police.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Please dont take offense, if we didnt know more than you, we wouldnt be doing our jobs very well....


I guess that comment should sum up what your saying... I agree with you wholeheartedly, alot of industry players dont have a clue, simply put, "they suck" if they are not willing to "learn" the trade, they should go screw something else up that is less important than living animals....

Im pretty sure Bev knows more about them than I do, I dont dedicate as much time as she probably does to them, I can care for them, raise them, breed them, but could know alot more, on the other hand I know alot about the situation with seahorses, as well as the rest of the industry...
I am "lucky" you could say... I have made friends with a bunch of very key players in this industry and have an "inside line" on whats going on...

[Quinn]

The principle of unknowns - maybe all of us have our contacts on the "inside". :rolleyes: Gossip doesn't account for much.

[UnderWorldAquatics]

For somereason I doubt that....?????????
Some people sure do seem to know alot! even though they have only been involved in marine aquaria for just over a year....
Mabey Im just annoyed..... I dont know how rolling ones eyes is supposed to be taken, but you might as well tell me I dont know jack crap
You know more fancy words than I do, I know more about the aquarium industry than you do. I dont percieve arguing over something that one is not fully familar with as intelligent.....
Okey Dokey, I think I have said more than needs to be said.....
"Take me with a grain of salt, Im just purging..."

[Quinn]

Against the exhortation of my good peers, I'll drop out of this discussion at this point, in the interest of keeping it on the original topic of seahorses, and will wait for a more suitable thread to appear in which to continue this current exchange.

[fishnut]

I, for one, support boycotting stores which sell WC animals when there are CB species available, or at least refusing to buy WC, and making purchases of CB where possible.

This is my view due to sustainability reasons, and also because the CB are just so much better suited for aquarium life - they are used to the food, to life in a tank, to people, and they don't have the diseases the WC ones do.

Less stress due to long shipping distances for the CB = healthier animals.

Just MHO.

[nickb]

While people working in the industry undoubtedly know far more than most of the rest of us about the process of acquiring stock, etc., nearly all of them are in the business to make profit. That isn't bad, but it can influence one's approach to conservation, etc. There are many instances of 'industry knows best' leading to major environmental problems (think about many whale species, cod stocks). I am not saying this is the situation with sea horses (I don't have the knowledge to say that). I am suggesting that people's opinions should be judged on the facts used to support them, not on the stength of conviction or on 'being in the know'.

I've been researching the possibility of starting a seahorse tank. Every site I have read says the same thing: buy only captive bred sea horses. This is to reduce the demand on the wild population. But also becuase of their better record in aquaria (something which should be taken into account). There is a role for WC seahorse for the experts and breeders but I have trouble seeing them being sold to neebies. As such, I share the concerns about a major Canadian aquarium vendor selling WC seahorse without provide clear disclaimers, etc.

Sites of potential interest would include:

http://www.seahorse.org/
http://www.syngnathid.org/
http://www.saseahorse.com/

[BCOrchidGuy]

Beverly, please correct me if I'm wrong but buying a CB seahorse doesn't guarantee that they'll eat frozen when they arrive. Shipping can turn them off eating frozen food and in some cases they will starve to death before they go back on frozen.
Just wanted to let folks know, even CB Seahorses aren't all that easy. Dwarf or pygmy seahorses will eat and do well on enriched brineshrimp but they HAVE to be enriched.

Beverly? anything to add or correct?

Doug

[Beverly]

Beverly, please correct me if I'm wrong but buying a CB seahorse doesn't guarantee that they'll eat frozen when they arrive. Shipping can turn them off eating frozen food and in some cases they will starve to death before they go back on frozen.
Just wanted to let folks know, even CB Seahorses aren't all that easy. Dwarf or pygmy seahorses will eat and do well on enriched brineshrimp but they HAVE to be enriched.

Hmmm..... Interesting topic, Doug. Long answer follows:

None of my CB H. whitei ever starved after arrival, though they were certainly in a different environment in my tank than they were at Seanic. My 28g was set up with 25-30 lbs LR, 3" sandbed, lots of macroalgae for hitching. There were pods for the SHs to hunt in that rich natural environment.

At Seanic, their SH tanks are like those at a lfs, with a bit of LR, a few places for hitching, probably a bare bottom, and no places for pods to populate for hunting.

When my new SHs arrived, they went back to their instinctive hunting way of life because of the more natural environment. Broadcast feeding the tank the way Seanic did it was not successful for me because the mysis would float to all the hidden places in the tank where the CBs would never be able to find no matter how long they hunted.

When I realized this feeding method wasn't working very well, I began to spot feed each horse to make sure they ate. It was a PITA to spot feed 4 SHs, so I did more reading. The idea of the feeding station was mentioned in a few posts, so I decided to set one up and train my SHs to know there was a consistent place in the tank where they would always find food.

Training consisted of removing each SH from its original hitching spot and allowing it to hitch to the MANY hitching places around the feeder. I then added the mysis to the feeder. One SH might have taken a mysis, but the others ignored them at first. I gently blew the mysis around in the feeder to catch their attention, at which time more would eat.

Took about a week for them to know the feeding clues and for them to all go to the feeder on their own when they were ready to eat. But they did not balk at the idea of eating dead food. They were already accustomed to doing so, unlike WC.

Only a rare few WCs catch onto eating frozen fairly soon after arriving in a new tank. From what I read at sh.org, it is ALWAYS prudent to be prepared with an unending supply of live food in the event dead food is never accepted. More WC NEVER accept dead food than accept it.

I have also read about the training methods of getting WC to eat dead food, but it almost always involves starting out with live food and a feeding station. The WCs are removed from their hitching spots and placed at the feeding station where live food goes into the feeder. Once they learn where the good live food is, the dead food is fed along with the live food. Most often none of the dead food is eaten. Days later, the live food is injured in such a way that they do not move much but can still move. Dead food is continued to be added to the feeder. At this point some WCs may try the dead food, but many do not. This injured live food mixed with dead food can go on for some time before the WCs ever try the dead food. From what I have read, some people try to trick the WCs some days by only putting in dead food instead of a mix of injured live and dead. Some WCs make the transition, some not. The process is long, frustrating and not always successful.

So, in short, I have not had experience with CBs dying of starvation, though I have read that some folks at sh.org, mostly American SH keepers with different suppliers than those up here, have had some difficulty in getting some of their CBs eating. I am not sure if these SH keepers had tried spot feeding or training their CBs to eat from a feeder. Another factor in new SHs not eating down south could be the CBs didn't make the trip from OR or other American CB SH dealers very well. Some American CB SH suppliers do not have very good reputations, at least according to the complaints I read.

HTH.

[EmilyB]

Have seahorse keepers tried the garlic on the food thing.... :question:

My pipefish went NUTS, I fed him some leftover "tang" mysis. Now he sniffs out the regular mysis as BORING.... :mrgreen:

[naesco]

While people working in the industry undoubtedly know far more than most of the rest of us about the process of acquiring stock, etc., nearly all of them are in the business to make profit. That isn't bad, but it can influence one's approach to conservation, etc. There are many instances of 'industry knows best' leading to major environmental problems (think about many whale species, cod stocks). I am not saying this is the situation with sea horses (I don't have the knowledge to say that). I am suggesting that people's opinions should be judged on the facts used to support them, not on the stength of conviction or on 'being in the know'.

I've been researching the possibility of starting a seahorse tank. Every site I have read says the same thing: buy only captive bred sea horses. This is to reduce the demand on the wild population. But also becuase of their better record in aquaria (something which should be taken into account). There is a role for WC seahorse for the experts and breeders but I have trouble seeing them being sold to neebies. As such, I share the concerns about a major Canadian aquarium vendor selling WC seahorse without provide clear disclaimers, etc.

Sites of potential interest would include:

http://www.seahorse.org/
http://www.syngnathid.org/
http://www.saseahorse.com/

I don't think anyone on this board would disagree with anything you have posted here.
Very well put,
thank you

[BCOrchidGuy]

I tried garlic, with no luck.

Doug

[Beverly]

Yup, use a drop of Garlic Xtreme along with Kent Zoe to soak the PE mysis I feed my SHs.

My feeding station page with details of foods, nutritional supplements, training method, and other info:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/hh-feeders-bw-whitei.htm

Feeding Station Gallery with lots of feeding station and feeding ideas:

http://www.lostmymarblz.com/hh-feeding-stations.htm

[UnderWorldAquatics]

Great site Beverly!