So confused..ich or not??? Help

[Coralgurl]

This morning I noticed white spots on one of my new clowns, looked up what it could be and came up with ich. The clowns as well as my starry blenny scrape /flick against the rocks and sand. All day I'm in a panic, what to do, try to catch all the fish, stick em a hospital tank? I called the lfs and was told to try garlic and selcom, picked it up along with some tools for rinsing and mixing up some food. Get home and spots are gone from clown, not moved but gone. Fish ate this morning, haven't fed yet tonight. Now my coral beauty has white spots that look like bubbles all over it. I turned up my protein skimmer to help with my phosphates (0.25), just tested and everything is where it should be. Do I have something going on?? I'm going away mid week and am so worried. I'm changing the water tonight and all filters, carbon etc (monthly change is due). Thoughts?? Thanks

[Proteus]

Just went through similar when I upgraded. All fish had whit spots and were faurly stressed. But the next day they were all cleared up. I passed it off as sand and scrapes from hiding in the rock and sand.

[Coralgurl]

Thanks I hope this is all it is! Going to give them the garlic and selcon anyway with their food, it can only help right? Ive been so worried all day. Before any new fish, a qt tank will be set up...but I'm fully stocked now anyway :lol:

[naesco]

Thanks I hope this is all it is! Going to give them the garlic and selcon anyway with their food, it can only help right? Ive been so worried all day. Before any new fish, a qt tank will be set up...but I'm fully stocked now anyway :lol:

Good idea just in case. Soak dry food in the garlic extract (Garlic Extreme) Dry because it soaks up the extract. Feed only garlic soaked food and feed often. Add Selcon from time to time.

[Coralgurl]

I've mixed up a batch to last a few days, going away mid week and my daughter will have to feed. I don't have any dry food, just frozen, but I rinsed then used fresh garlic and added the selcon. Im just not sure about my coral beauty, but she's eating and moving around lots, less shy as well.

[Coralgurl]

I am pretty sure it's ich,my coral beauty looks like shes dying, kinda swimming, nose up and sideways. She normally stays in the back behind the rock, but she's in the centre of the tank out front covered in white dots. My blue chromis then started smacking her with it's tail and she really didn't respond. I don't know what to do, I'm pretty sure my flame angel has some on it's tail, the blenny keeps hitting the sand and one clown now won't come out of the nem. I know trying to catch the all would be stressful to put them in a qt tank but this is horrible to watch. Any suggestions?

[kien]

I turned up my protein skimmer to help with my phosphates (0.25)

Protein skimmers do not remove phosphates nor is it their function to do so. Protein skimmers help to remove dissolved organics (fish poo, amino acids, etc). Protein skimmers will remove organic waste products that may contain phosphorus but phosphorus is not exactly phosphate. Technically, phosphorus is an element (P), and phosphate is a molecular anion (PO4_3-), part of phosphoric acid (H3PO4). Also, our aquarium test kits can only test for inorganic phosphates.

A better way to reduce phosphates is to run Granulated Ferric Oxide (GFO) in a media reactor. Mostly all local fish stores will sell some form of GFO (rowaPhos, etc).

[Coralgurl]

I actually picked some up yesterday and added to the filter tonight. The phosphates have stayed at .025 since I started testing a few weeks ago but has likely been an issue for a while. I actually added phos-pad to the filter. Will see how this works.

[Cal_stir]

fresh garlic works better, put it in a blender and pour off the juice

[Coralgurl]

I'm using fresh garlic with the selcon. Setting up a qt going to get the coral beauty in it and treat, she's the worst but may have to treat one of the clowns as well. We think the others will get better with the food.

[cwatkins]

Go buy some Rowaphos and put it in the little micron bag that it comes with and drop that in your filter as well as the carbon.

Note: rinse it well first with RO water until no more colour bleeds out of it.

[Proteus]

I have used herbtana in the past with good results. I believe red coral carries it

[Coralgurl]

I bought herbtana tonight and read another post that the person used it and next day all fish except one were dead. I also bought ich attack, but don't know whether or not to put either of these in my tank. My bf and I are now fighting over this bec I think trying to catch one fish is going to stress the others and make things worse. We've got the qt set up and added an instant reef something so it can take a fish but it was me chasing 2 fish last week that caused this, he thinks they look fine, but my male clown won't come out of the nem and is breathing heavy. I don't know what the best thing to do is!!!

[Proteus]

The ich is in the tank though and really u will have to remove all or none fish. I have used ick attack and it took Alot of bottles before it cleared. Fish always have parasite and if you stress them
Out buy chasing with a net it's more harm than good. Water changes. Garlic. Selcom and something like ick attack. Herbtana. Or vital immune is a good choice. Also. I used metroplex it's a powder you put in the food which really helped for me it's a antibiotic of sorts. Just make sure you soak food overnight so it absorbs all.

If there are fish in the tank than the ich will never be gone as it used the fish to reproduce. So best is to treat the tank entire and keep it as low stress as possible.

[Coralgurl]

Well I've just dosed with the herbtana and no ones gone in the qt. We are heading out of town and if things don't look any better when we get back, will remove all fish and try hypo. My daughter can look after tank while we are gone to continue treatment. Here's hoping!!

[Coralgurl]

Corals are not liking this.....oh my....

[Coralgurl]

Well first dose seems to have gone well and everyone is doing ok. Corals did not like this treatment but all are open and look good this morning. The anenome looked the worst, it's tentacles got really thin and it's body puffed up but today looks good. The snails completely retracted into their shells, actually could hear and see them falling into rock and sand, but they are back to grazing as well. No change with the fish, actually noticed spots on my flame angles body which I hadn't seen before. That said, everyone came out to eat. Mixing up a new batch of food, feeding them smaller portions more often. I hope we can get this under control!

[Proteus]

Just remember you don't need to see it for the fish to have it. It will infest there gills first which is the heavy breathing you

[Coralgurl]

I can see it on everyone except the cardinals and the chromis. I'm sure that this is a massive outbreak and have no doubt all fish are affected. If I was not going away tomorrow, I would break down my tank to catch everything, put in the qt and hypo them but bec I'm leaving and my daughter is not comfortable with the maintenance, this is the best I can do. I will run the full 10 day treatment and see how things are from there. There are no plans to add any more fish to this tank and will be a long time before adding any corals, but we are set up going forward. Deep breath...

[Gripenfelter]

Soak their food in Selcon or Garlic extract.

[Coralgurl]

Soaking food in both selcon and garlic.

[Coralgurl]

Well it's a sad day, my coral beauty didn't make it, found her dead this morning. She stopped eating yesterday, I watched her try to catch food but couldn't get to it. All the other fish are still showing great appetites and not any signs of problems yet even though they have I h on them as well. Today is the third day of treatment, hopefully it is making a difference.

[jtbadco]

Unless you want to remove them to a QT tank and treat with copper, then garlic and Selcon are your best bet.

I tried a couple of 'reef safe' meds but with little to no noticeable effect.

I have been told that fresh water dips can help remove some parasites too.

[Coralgurl]

The selcon garlic and herbtana seem to helping. One of my clowns barely came out of it's nem yesterday, but today is swimming all over. My blenny is also moving around more today and picking at the algae, yesterday he just sat on a rock up by one of the power heads, was still eating when I fed the tank but that's it. so there appears to be a bit of improvement. I tried to catch the coral beauty last night when she finally came out to try to do a fw dip, then place her in the qt tank as she was by far the worse, but I couldn't get her. I did set up a qt this week but felt the stress of taking my tank apart to catch everyone was going to be more stressful and cause more harm than good. Not out of the woods yet but I think things look a bit better today! Will keep updating this thread.

[jtbadco]

Doing frequent water changes is also advisable. Pristine water will help the fish heal and it will help to remove free swimming parasites from the water column. Do a FW dip on anyone you can catch.

The visible ich parasites will disappear and re-appear on the fish's skin as it follows it's life cycle. Once you have gone 10-14 days without any spots you should be fine.

[Coralgurl]

Ahh, I wasn't sure if I should do any water changes while treating. I did one on Sunday, will get one set up to do tomorrow. I usually do 10 gl on my 55 gl tank, is that enough as I don't have a big enough container to do a larger one.

I still see spots on them, but the clowns and blenny are flashing less. Also, can I treat with the herbtana every 12 hours or just once a day? Instructions say daily so I've been doing at the same time each night, an hour before lights out so they are swimming less.

Thanks for the input!

[Gripenfelter]

If you have a UV sterilizer it would help prevent future breakouts.

[Coralgurl]

I don't have one at the moment but will pick one up before treatment is complete. It would have to be turned off during treatment anyway, I need more salt so will probably head out in the next day or so to pick one up - any recommendations on a decent one? I was at Pisces earlier this week and they have one for around $160, plus the pump and lines, not sure on brand.

[Gripenfelter]

Check how many watts it is. You don't want one too big or it will kill all bacteria. One too small does nothing.

[Coralgurl]

Thanks! I will check out options and add one to the tank. Going to treat for additional 2 weeks once spots gone, have a feeling tank is going to be a mess after with protein skimmer off and extra feeding.

[Gripenfelter]

Why is the skimmer off?

[Coralgurl]

Treatment instructions say to turn it off and pull carbon out of filter.

[Gripenfelter]

Most Reef safe treatments, in my experience, do not work.

You have two options.

1) Quarantine the sick fish and treat with Cupramine.

2) Soak food in garlic and selcon while providing pristine water conditions hoping it will blow over.

Personally I soaked the food and added a UV sterilizer. Ich is like the common cold. All tanks have their own form of it. Untreated, over time some fish get used to it while the touchier fish die.

I've had an 18 W UV sterilizer on my 120 gallon for 4 months. My blue regal tang used to be covered in ich sometimes and sometimes only have a couple of spots. Since adding the UV I don't see a single solitary spot. It doesn't cure ich but it prevents re-infection.

If you keep the skimmer off, keep an eye on your water parameters and do water changes as necessary.

[Coralgurl]

Great suggestions! I'm doing option 2 on your list with the herbtana. The treatments have had mixed reviews, some say it works, some say it doesn't. Some say hypo some say copper (which i also bought this week) but bec these require removal I chose the treatment. This outbreak visibly affected 5 of my 8 fish, the others I simply can't tell. I have water mixing now and will change first thing tomorrow morning.
Im going to finish the recommended treatment time (10 days) and move forward from there, uv sterilizer included-I've heard this works, I do not want to go through this again so with a qt now set up, a uv sterilizer on the tank hopefully this is the last time I see ich on my fish! I did turn my skimmer back on on low, will retest all parameters today, as of Sunday, only issue was phosphates, but I'm dealing with that. Tested yesterday and it's still at 0.25.
Also will qt fish before they go into tank, but unless this wipes everything out, no new fish for a long time.

[daniella3d]

If you do not do a proper treatment, you will always have ich in your tank. It's going to come and go and any new addition that will be stressed might trigger a new outburst of ick.

The best is to remove all of your fish and treat them all, then leave your main tank without fish for 6 weeks or so. That's the only way you are going to be free of ich, or you will have to endure this every now and then.

If you ever use Cupramine, make sure you do not use any water treatment like Prime as it will bind with the amine in Cupramine and release the copper into a toxic form.

Another treatment could be Seachem paraguard and it's quite safe but not for the coral or invert. To be done in a quarantine tank. But at least you could have some liverock in there and have a decent water quality. With copper you cannot put any liverock and ammonia can build up quite fast so this must be checked each day, preferably twice a day.

[Coralgurl]

I realize this leaves the ich in the tank. I've already said why I close this method, I feel it's the best choice right now. The fish are already sick, stressing them more is not going to help right now.

To top it off, my nem has decided to relocate, all power heads are covered but this is restricting water flow. Anyone has a suggestion on a good netting product? Tried a fish net and now have nylons covering them.

[Cal_stir]

Sorry about your Coral Beauty, the garlic keeps them eating and boosts their ammune system, keep your skimmer running, add garlic right to the tank as well as the food, make the tank smell like garlic. I went through this about a month ago, no losses, you can get through this!
And yes, reef safe remedies do not work.

[Coralgurl]

Thanks, I liked the cb a lot but she was def the sickest. I dont know when it started to affect her so treating and feeding was probably too late. The skimmer is back on. One more feeding tonight, still going to treat, it doesn't hurt to continue to try. Glad to hear you made it through with no losses!

[Cal_stir]

Thanks, we have 20 fish, all had it to some degree, yellow tang was completely covered and royal gramma had spots in its mouth, did the fresh garlic for a week, whole house smelled, absolutely no sign of it now and I think Tang looks better now than ever. Good Luck.

[Coralgurl]

Yep, my tank smells as well, using 1/2 clove per batch of food I've been mixing up. Thankfully I'm off for a few days so can really keep an eye on things!

[Coralgurl]

Well I'm starting to remove my fish to the qt today. I finally noticed ich on my chromis today so I don't think things are getting better. Treatment on herbtana is 10 days, today is day 8. My tank is a mess now, sand looks gross, I think this is detris? Anyway, so far I've got the blenny out, he didn't care about the net and was the easiest to catch. I'm going to pull the rock out into tubs and catch the rest, will start copper tomorrow as I need a test kit for it first. I also need to restock water for wc, I only got 10 gl left, got a batch ready to go once I pull the fish out.

None of the other fish except the blenny are showing they are having issues with the ich but they do not look like they are getting any better either. I hope this works.

[Gripenfelter]

I would invest in a good uv sterilizer while you're at it.

[Coralgurl]

Will do! Was planning on getting one anyway.

So I empty all my rock out, catch all my fish, count, hmm missing one. Not in tank, not in qt, not in tub with corals, not on the floor. So, start putting rock back in tank, all in aquascaping done for now, out pops the flame angel. From where?? No freakin clue...... Argh. Now what? Leave it or pull it apart? Can't use the water I mixed up now would be pointless. Do I just treat the fish in the qt tank with the copper, add the uv sterilizer and put fish back in? I have no clue where this fish was hiding!!:twised::evil::evil::evil:

[Gripenfelter]

The fish was wedged inside one of the crevices in the rock.

Honestly, $5 says the flame angel will not survive whatever you decide to do.

Stress or ich, one is gonna kill it.

Less stressful to be around his buddies though.

I would QT it.

QT all fish for 3-4 weeks minimum. Make sure you keep up with water changes and monitor ammonia and nitrate levels.

[Coralgurl]

Bugger! Ok well I'm gonna grab something to eat first then see what I can do. I found a plastic thing which I used to help make tank smaller so fish couldn't swim to other side of tank and that worked fabulously. Will see if I can keep it on one side and only move rocks around, hopefully it stays on the side with the smaller rocks. I started this, gotta finish it. The stress was the reason I opted to leave them in the tank and treat. I guess it's risky either way.

Thank you!

[Coralgurl]

In behind the protein skimmer! Awesome!

[Coralgurl]

All fish in qt now, will start copper treatment tonight, just waiting for copper test. Is this too soon after moving them?

[Cal_stir]

i've never treated with copper but i know it's toxic so you must get the levels correct and follow instuctions carefully, the sooner the better, ich is nasty, causes alot of stress, keep the light low as i think that less stressful for them, you must keep the main tank fish free for 6 to 8 weeks to ensure all the ich is dead.

[Coralgurl]

I just put the first treatment in, second on Wednesday. I made sure I had test kits first and have been researching all afternoon. Display will remain empty for the 6-8 weeks. I am assuming that when they are ready to go back in, it's only a couple at a time or can they all go in at the same time?

I will qt everything going forward, but if all fish survive then I won't be adding anymore anyway!

[Cal_stir]

yes, the tank will need to readjust to bioload, i've been there and 6 to 8 weeks is a long time, it will seem like an eternity, but you must stick it out, good luck

[Coralgurl]

Bad start, both my baby clowns have died within a couple of hours.

Pulling hair out now.....

[daniella3d]

What type of copper did you put in there? Also did you check for ammonia? this is a reason I like to use hyposalinity to cure ich (if it was really ich) as you can have liverock and that's a good way to avoid ammonia buildup. With copper, you can't have anything and you cannot put any dechlorinator to neutralize copper if you are using Cupramine.

So the only way to remove deadly ammonia is to do water change and then mesure copper again and redose accordingly. Ammonia can build up really fast in a small tank loaded with fish and it is very deadly at high PH. Copper is toxic as well to the fish.

Bad start, both my baby clowns have died within a couple of hours.

Pulling hair out now.....

[Coralgurl]

I checked the ammonia after they died, it was at 0.25 but I wasn't sure if the copper was giving it a false reading. I'm using cupramine, there is nothing else in the tank. I will get a water change ready today, will pick up an airstone as well. I have to find a seachem copper test as well, we have the API test. Others look ok this morning, going to feed them and see how they respond.

[Wayne]

Sorry for the loss of the clowns :sad: Hopefully this straitens itself out quick.

[reefwars]

i would think the clowns were to stressed for the treatment, hope its going well ,coppers a tricky process.good luck

[Coralgurl]

Everyone else seems ok for now. Checked the copper tonight, it's at .03 so I don't think I overdosed the tank, was probably stress. I noticed the ich on them first and maybe they were worse than I thought. Hope this is the worst of it.

[daniella3d]

I think they were probably too far gone already. Cupramine is one of the safest copper treatment around as lons as there is no water treatment (dechlorinator like Prime) added to the water.

Your clowns probably had their gills very much dammaged already and the stress of moving plus maybe a lower level of oxygen in the QT may have done the rest.


Since you are going through all this trouble, I would leave the main tank empty of fish for 8 weeks of possible. .25 ammonia is too much, as ammonia is very very toxic at PH above 7 and the higher the PH the faster the ammonia will kill a fish. Higher temperature make that ever worse.

It's too bad that with such level of ammonia you cannot even use an ammonia detoxyfier because it will interfear with the copper treatment. All you can do is to water change and redose the copper. Try also to keep the water temperature a bit lower as ammonia toxicyty is also dependant on the temperature and the higher the temp the more it is dammaging.

for exemple, at 78 F and PH of 8.3, the ammonia will kill a fish or seriously injure it at level of only 0.21 and you already have 0.25 more or less.

Here is a chart for ammonia toxicity: http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html

Do not let your ph rise too much during this treatment for that reason and use a lower temperature, maybe 75F would be better.


Everyone else seems ok for now. Checked the copper tonight, it's at .03 so I don't think I overdosed the tank, was probably stress. I noticed the ich on them first and maybe they were worse than I thought. Hope this is the worst of it.

[Coralgurl]

I too think the clowns were really sick. My blenny seemed to be doing a bit better for a few days last week, then noticed that he was again sitting high on the rocks beside one of the power heads, think to try to get more oxygen. He died this morning. I think he had ich really bad as well, some mornings he was completely white around mouth and gills, would clear during the day then be bad again next day.

I added an airstone yesterday to the qt and noticed my cardinals in a corner barely breathing and my chromis was swimming at an accelerated pace, couldn't figure out what was going on, turned the airstone off, cardinals started to swim and chromis settled down. No more airstone.

My ammonia is still close to .25, ph is 8.1, i have dropped the temp down, thermonitor doesn't show settings so have to check on the side of the tank in a bit, was at 78.

Fish ate a bit this morning, haven't done a water change yet as I can't get the dosing right in my water change bucket and don't want to add to tank until I get it.

So I'm down to 4 fish. I can see see spots on the angel, so keep on going.

I have no plans to put the fish back until they are clear and 8 weeks have
passed. I am not going thru this again!!

[daniella3d]

At this PH and at this level of ammonia, your fish gills might burn and they might not survive. 78F is too much and the dissolve oxygen at this temperature is lower. I would let the temperature go down to 76. That will help for the oxygen and also for the ammonia.

I think when dosing copper it is probably better to have 2 tanks so that there is always a fresh supply of water at the right temperature and at the right copper concentration if a large water change must be done.

I too think the clowns were really sick. My blenny seemed to be doing a bit better for a few days last week, then noticed that he was again sitting high on the rocks beside one of the power heads, think to try to get more oxygen. He died this morning. I think he had ich really bad as well, some mornings he was completely white around mouth and gills, would clear during the day then be bad again next day.

I added an airstone yesterday to the qt and noticed my cardinals in a corner barely breathing and my chromis was swimming at an accelerated pace, couldn't figure out what was going on, turned the airstone off, cardinals started to swim and chromis settled down. No more airstone.

My ammonia is still close to .25, ph is 8.1, i have dropped the temp down, thermonitor doesn't show settings so have to check on the side of the tank in a bit, was at 78.

Fish ate a bit this morning, haven't done a water change yet as I can't get the dosing right in my water change bucket and don't want to add to tank until I get it.

So I'm down to 4 fish. I can see see spots on the angel, so keep on going.

I have no plans to put the fish back until they are clear and 8 weeks have
passed. I am not going thru this again!!

[jorjef]

Okay here's my version of the ugly reality.... Stop now before you frustrate yourself to the point of throwing in the towel completely and selling your system. You have 4 fish left, most not overly expensive fish , green chromis, 2 Bangaii, and a Flame Angel. Let them be if they live they live but adding more of this that and everything else to save them could be making things worse. With them weak to begin with, the stress of moving and being in a Hospital tank and the forever changing water conditions it might be better to just let things stabilize and hope for the best.