New tank syndrome in an addition?

[doch]

Ok, I added a frag tank and a water change tank to my relatively new, but fully cycled tank. I have noticed over the last couple of weeks that the algae in the frag tank has exploded. Up untill now, I just figured that I need a clean up crew, but tonight my wife suggested that it's only NTS. Is this possible? The frag tank is the same water as the 160... but it has a huge algae bloom. Is it a bloom that I should wait our, or should I add some serious clean up crew?

Something to add... I'm running cheap made in china ebay style LED lights on the tank. All the corals seem to be doing OK.. not spectacular, but OK... could this be the problem?

[reefwars]

whay kind of algae like diatoms??

[Cal_stir]

I would say NTS, it takes about 6 months to completely cycle a system, any time you add something to a new system it will cycle,the system will adjust, wait it out, don't add anything else for a while.

[doch]

There's a little bit of diatoms, but mostly a weird hair algae that I've never seen before. I'm not going to be adding anything until November... I'm working a shutdown right now so there's not much time for anything but work. Hopefully by then it's settled in. I just wish that I had a chance to grab a handful of snails and hermits for the sump and the frag tank. Oh well.

[Myka]

Explaining algae with NTS is a crock imo. The only algae that should be expected is diatoms. Anything else is a nutrient problem. Do you have GFO? Have you tested nitrate and phosphate? If so, which kits, what readings?

[reefwars]

Explaining algae with NTS is a crock imo. The only algae that should be expected is diatoms. Anything else is a nutrient problem. Do you have GFO? Have you tested nitrate and phosphate? If so, which kits, what readings?


i knew it would happen eventually but we agreed on something lol:):)

shes right , algae feeds and like anything if it starves it dies.diatoms will die off and dissapear in time as well and if theres any sort of excess nutrients in your tank algae will feed off it and it really doesnt take much.i doubt your light is the problem:)

[reefermadness]

Explaining algae with NTS is a crock imo. The only algae that should be expected is diatoms. Anything else is a nutrient problem. Do you have GFO? Have you tested nitrate and phosphate? If so, which kits, what readings?

I agree that it's not NTS or a "cycle". But I don't agree that it has to be a nutrient problem. I have done this a few times and what I notice is that when adding a new brightly light frag tank to an existing system, you will get algae in the frag tank for months till the new surfaces get coralline and bacteria coated.

In fact I just did the same thing again about a month ago....and my frag tank is growing algae like no ones business....yet my display is awesome with not a sign of algae and 0.00ppm p04 on a hanna in the system. I know I don't have a nutrient problem.

This can be explained by my above statement about new surfaces and also the fact that I have many algae eating inhabitants in the display tank and none in the frag tank.

People say if you can grow algae you have a nutrient problem.....which you may but it's not a very good sign. Many algae's (especially macro algae such as hair, cheato, clalurpa and bubble) need very little nutrients to grow. Think of awesome tanks with refugiums loaded with algae.

Micro alage like diatoms should never be an on going problem.

I say you manually clean for now and add some fish or snails if you can. It should get better in time. It's good to run the tank for a few months with nothing in it and the light on it.

[Myka]

Darryl, I've seen this many times as well. I can explain this.

As you said, the new surfaces don't have a bacteria coating nor any coralline algae growth. This means there is nothing competing against the algae in that tank. If a person leaves the new tank in the dark (cover it) for a few weeks to age it without light he won't get this algae bloom. Some people call it NTS, I would prefer to call it Reefer Not Taking Required Steps For Prevention. :lol:

Hair algae actually requires quite a lot of nutrients to grow well. If there is hair algae there is a nutrient problem, a person can't argue that imo.

Chaeto, Caulerpa, and especially Valonia all require much less nutrients. This is why Chaeto and Caulerpa are often used for macroalgae culture for nutrient export. Valonia is too invasive for most people to want to use as it releases spores, and requires very very little nutrients to grow very well which can be problematic. Caulerpa can "go sexual" and spawn in the tank, so it is often avoided for nutrient export as well. Valonia and Caulerpa have roots so pieces that break off will sprout up elsewhere which can make them invasive. Chaeto doesn't have roots and doesn't "go sexual" so it doesn't sprout up elsewhere and is not invasive. Chaeto and Caulerpa will not survive in an ULNS provided by Zeovit or other systems, however Valonia may still persist...that is low little nutrients it requires.

Awesome tanks loaded with macroalgae in a culture tank (I prefer this word to refugium as I believe a refugium is not for nutrient export, but for zooplankton culture) are possible because there are excess nutrients in the tank. The macro culture tank provides a place to store the culture algae away from an area where it could become invasive. Chaeto is a great tool for this because as described, it is not invasive, but also because it requires less nutrients than hair algae, diatoms, cyano, dinos, etc. So Chaeto will suck up the small amount of nutrients before they can build up to a point where there are enough nutrients that other algae will start to grow. Essentially, Chaeto will out compete most other algae provided it has a good place to grow.

[Cal_stir]

Explaining algae with NTS is a crock imo. The only algae that should be expected is diatoms. Anything else is a nutrient problem. Do you have GFO? Have you tested nitrate and phosphate? If so, which kits, what readings?

The frag tank is a new tank and the algae is only in that tank, if there is a nutrient problem then why no algae in the main tank. the frag tank should cycle it out, could be something that was on the glass, imo.

[Myka]

The frag tank is a new tank and the algae is only in that tank, if there is a nutrient problem then why no algae in the main tank. the frag tank should cycle it out, could be something that was on the glass, imo.

I thought I explained that in my last post...? :neutral:

the new surfaces don't have a bacteria coating nor any coralline algae growth. This means there is nothing competing against the algae in that tank. If a person leaves the new tank in the dark (cover it) for a few weeks to age it without light he won't get this algae bloom. Some people call it NTS, I would prefer to call it Reefer Not Taking Required Steps For Prevention.

[Cal_stir]

OOPS, I thought you said "Explaining algae with NTS is a crock"

[Myka]

I'm pretty sure I made it rather clear that the only algae that counts for NTS is diatoms, everything else is a nutrient issue. The tank has a nutrient issue, but there is enough competition within the tank that it is not apparent. Is there an echo in here?

If the OP has any more questions about his tank, I'm sure he will ask them. ;)

[reefermadness]

I agree with 99.99% of what you are saying. I will say that if you have lots of hair algae you probably have a nutrient problem but to get a tuff here or there is possible with-out a nutrient problem.

Also I don't think diatoms is the only algae I see in the frag tanks I have set up. Right now I'm battling diatom, cyano (many consider it an algae but I know its a bacteria) cotton candy algae and some algae that is almost like a green hair but thicker and shorter. This tank is just about a month or so old tied into my system. I had a smaller frag tank previously and went through the same thing for months.

[doch]

OK... so my nitrates are as clear as clear can be on a hagen (go ahead and knock it) test kit. My phosphates did actually get a little on the high side... about 0.15 on a Hanna. I have since started running GFO again. I started full zeo, but there were a few things that I overlooked when I set it up. I read the instructions on the bottles, and followed them, not realizing that there is more of a set up process. I've ordered a new sump, and once I get that, I'll properly set up and run the zeo that way that it was supposed to be run. I don't really understand why the instructions on the bottles don't reflect these specifics. Oh well.

I also hijacked a few snails and hermits from the display tank and threw them in the frag tank... I'm sure this will help some.

Reallistically, this bloom is likely due to my phosphates creeping up. GFO has been on for about a week now, and I'm sure that the levels are down to <.1 which is as low as I was ever able to get it on my old tank.

How do you bring your phosphates down to 0.00?

[Myka]

I'm not sure how sensitive the Hanna Checker is compared to the D-D Merck kit, but even people using Zeovit rarely get down to 0.00 ppm phosphate using the Merck kit. Getting to 0.08 ppm is doing quite well. Keep in mind that if you have any algae growing in the tank the true phosphate level will be higher as the algae are sucking it out of the water column as it grows. Sometimes, but not always you can get a higher phosphate reading if you test in the morning before the lights come on. You're doing everything right regarding phosphate.

As far as Zeovit goes, have you joined the Zeovit forums yet? Which Zeovit products are you using? I would suggest you just use the Zeolites, Bak, Food, and Start to begin with. Don't start using any of the other additives until you have removed your tank of every little bit of algae. Absolutely do not follow the directions on the bottles when it come to the other additives. I was using 1/4 what the bottles said and got the best results that way. I was not able to dose Iron or B-Balance without getting algae blooms. If you get diatoms or cyano when you start the additives you're dosing too many additives.

[reefermadness]

All I know is I bought a hanna checker and got 0.00 and tested 3 times. It was a while ago though.....and I know I must have some...but its low.

The hanna p04 checker is +/- .04ppm accuracy. Really not that good considering most people recommend PO4 to be less than .03ppm.

[StirCrazy]

plus remember the test kits we can afford only measure inorganic phosphate not organic phosphate. so it is quite possible to get 0 phosphate readings but still have phosphate.

as for the rest I agree with Myka 100%

Steve

[reefermadness]

Are you guys saying I have a nutrient problem?

[StirCrazy]

Are you guys saying I have a nutrient problem?

haha, mexican turbo snails will mow down the cotton candy in no time. I had it in plague proportions and they took care of it with in a week.

Steve

[Myka]

Are you guys saying I have a nutrient problem?

Yup. If your tank has nuisance algae anywhere...then ya. If you can grow chaeto like no tomorrow...then ya.

Diatoms are essentially the warning flag of problems that are going to arise if something isn't done. If you see diatoms, replace GFO and look at nitrate/phosphate levels and sources. You know the saying, "Fart is [poop]'s warning call." :lol:

[doch]

I'm not sure how sensitive the Hanna Checker is compared to the D-D Merck kit, but even people using Zeovit rarely get down to 0.00 ppm phosphate using the Merck kit. Getting to 0.08 ppm is doing quite well. Keep in mind that if you have any algae growing in the tank the true phosphate level will be higher as the algae are sucking it out of the water column as it grows. Sometimes, but not always you can get a higher phosphate reading if you test in the morning before the lights come on. You're doing everything right regarding phosphate.

As far as Zeovit goes, have you joined the Zeovit forums yet? Which Zeovit products are you using? I would suggest you just use the Zeolites, Bak, Food, and Start to begin with. Don't start using any of the other additives until you have removed your tank of every little bit of algae. Absolutely do not follow the directions on the bottles when it come to the other additives. I was using 1/4 what the bottles said and got the best results that way. I was not able to dose Iron or B-Balance without getting algae blooms. If you get diatoms or cyano when you start the additives you're dosing too many additives.

Sorry... I meant to say that I'm dosing about 1/3 of the recommended dosage of all of the products I use. I've been using the supplements (k,b, phols, coral vit, eisen, kalimidofluor, coral snow, amino acids, and maybe a couple others) for quite some time with no ill effects, but since the upgrade I started with full zeo (zeolites, bak, food, and start) . I'm not on the zeo forums, but I have lurked around there for a while and done some reading. This is what has taought me that I've done the start up wrong. The replies to questions that I've read have been suggesting to dose bak and food daily, directly into the reactor pump. I didn't do this. I dosed about 1/3 of the suggested dose twice a week for the whole time. Also, I didn't run my reactor on a 3 hours on, 3 hours off schedule... full time. Like I say, I'll be switching the sump semi soon, and at that time I'll follow the proper set up protocol. For now, GFO, and time.

Thanks for all the replies guys/gals.

[Myka]

Sorry... I meant to say that I'm dosing about 1/3 of the recommended dosage of all of the products I use. I've been using the supplements (k,b, phols, coral vit, eisen, kalimidofluor, coral snow, amino acids, and maybe a couple others) for quite some time with no ill effects, but since the upgrade I started with full zeo (zeolites, bak, food, and start) . I'm not on the zeo forums, but I have lurked around there for a while and done some reading. This is what has taought me that I've done the start up wrong. The replies to questions that I've read have been suggesting to dose bak and food daily, directly into the reactor pump. I didn't do this. I dosed about 1/3 of the suggested dose twice a week for the whole time. Also, I didn't run my reactor on a 3 hours on, 3 hours off schedule... full time. Like I say, I'll be switching the sump semi soon, and at that time I'll follow the proper set up protocol. For now, GFO, and time.

Thanks for all the replies guys/gals.

Oh, I see. I'm surprised you haven't run into any algae troubles yet using all those additives without the full system. It took me a good year to figure out the Zeovit system...it is not easy to do imo. Albeit I never had the reactor working proper either. Once I finally got a reactor ready for it I gave up on the system because I was working out of province and the tank maintenance company didn't know enough about the Zeovit to adjust dosing when it needed it.

That reminds me...I should hook up that reactor again. I found it preferred to dose the basic 4 at full dose.

[reefermadness]

Yup. If your tank has nuisance algae anywhere...then ya. If you can grow chaeto like no tomorrow...then ya.

Diatoms are essentially the warning flag of problems that are going to arise if something isn't done. If you see diatoms, replace GFO and look at nitrate/phosphate levels and sources. You know the saying, "Fart is [poop]'s warning call." :lol:

But if I didnt add the frag tank....I would have no algae to speak of. Hanna didnt register a thing and my NO3 is .2ppm. I run GFO and biopellets....what more can I do besides stop feeding the tank and my corals are all doing so well that I don't think I want to try that. I think I will just wait it out and I have a feeling that everything is going to be fine in the frag tank with-in a month or two.

[doch]

Oh, I see. I'm surprised you haven't run into any algae troubles yet using all those additives without the full system. It took me a good year to figure out the Zeovit system...it is not easy to do imo. Albeit I never had the reactor working proper either. Once I finally got a reactor ready for it I gave up on the system because I was working out of province and the tank maintenance company didn't know enough about the Zeovit to adjust dosing when it needed it.

That reminds me...I should hook up that reactor again. I found it preferred to dose the basic 4 at full dose.

I've actually stopped dosing everything right now. Since I didn't set it up properly in the first place, I stopped everything. I've still got flow going through the reactor though... should I shut it down? I'm thinking of firing up the bio pellets for the time being until I have time to go pick up my sump and return pump... after shutdown (I'm working 75hours/week right now).

So you're saying that I should run the bak/start/food at full recommended dose? What's the 4th? Zeolites?

[Myka]

I've actually stopped dosing everything right now. Since I didn't set it up properly in the first place, I stopped everything. I've still got flow going through the reactor though... should I shut it down? I'm thinking of firing up the bio pellets for the time being until I have time to go pick up my sump and return pump... after shutdown (I'm working 75hours/week right now).

So you're saying that I should run the bak/start/food at full recommended dose? What's the 4th? Zeolites?

Yeah, the Zeolites is 4th. Those are the only 4 things that are good as recommended by Zeovit. The others' dosing needs to be seriously hacked down.

I don't see any reason to shut down the Zeolite reactor, or start up Biopellets. Too many changes for the tank aren't good. How long before you wil be going again on the Zeovit?