Dosing - can't find the right levels.

[doch]

I'm stumped. Big time.

I recently upgraded and up until this point, had no trouble at all finding the right amount to dose in order to maintain proper levels (Ca ~400, dkh ~7-8, and Mg ~1350). Since the upgrade, everything is FUBAR.

My Mg skyrocketed to 1900! I turned off the Mg pump, did a water change, it came down to 1700... kept the pump off. 3 days later, did another water change, tested again - 1850. WTF!? No Mg coming in, and it raised. Does new glass and or silicon leach Mg into a tank?? (J/K. I think)

My Ca has been all over the place, but within semi decent levels, so I'm sure that it will settle in with time.

Alkalinity.... again... WTF? Had my pump set for 30 minutes, tested, it was at about 5dKH. Added some Reefbuilder or whatever it's called (the raise alk one), and upped my dosing time to 35 mintutes. Waited 3 days, tested again, 5dKh. F. Did a water change, tested, 5. Added some more reef builder... time will tell with the result.

I'm getting... wait, I AM frustrated. Is there a step that I'm missing? Are my test kits shot? Am I on some serious drugs? I'm lost... please help.

[Myka]

Testing can be frustrating because the kit is only as accurate as the user. Be very careful when measuring water, measuring powders, and make sure the drops are even. Do it the same way every time. Use a knife back to level off the powders, hold bottles "perfectly" vertical (not on 45 degrees), and get air bubble out of the syringe when measuring water. Sometimes the first drop out of a bottle isn't a "perfect" drop and shouldn't be used. If you just fill to a line on the test tube, get a syringe and measure water instead. Test, dose, wait an hour, test again. This way you know how much a certain amount of dosing affects the tank. Knowing this can also help when adjusting dosers as you should be able to figure out mL per minute and how much is dosed per mL. Finally, test at the same time everyday...preferably in the morning before the lights come on. Testing in the evening after lights go out is a good time too. Also, when I adjust dosers I only adjust by a couple minutes at a time. If I adjust a doser I always test that parameter as the end of the dosing cycle (I dose calcium during the day and alkalinity at night).

Provided the testing is accurate...

What salt mix are you using?

Alkalinity can be a giant PITA to keep steady. I would say get the Mg down to normal levels, and then forget about it for now. Concentrate on one parameter at once because adjusting one will impact another, this is why you're seeing really wacky numbers. Once Mg is in a relatively good place (say somewhere between 1250-1400 ppm), concentrate on calcium (somewhere between 380-440 ppm), then look at alkalinity (6-10 will be fine for now).

[fishytime]

What brand of test kits are you using and how old are they?

[Parker]

I agree with the above. A while ago I had a test kit refrencing very little No3 in my tank, I bought a new test kit and the actual levels were close to 15.

[Maverick00]

sry alittle off topic, Does the "hanna checker" offer more than just phosphate and alkalinity at the moment? Im personally alittle sick of guessing where the approx the color value is.

[fishytime]

sry alittle off topic, Does the "hanna checker" offer more than just phosphate and alkalinity at the moment? Im personally alittle sick of guessing where the approx the color value is.

the calcium checker has been in stores for a few weeks

[ScubaSteve]

I can't really offer a solution to the Mg problem other than you didn't wait long enough on the tests. Let the tests sit for 5 mins before you determine what the reading is.

Alk can be a bitch. I found my tank actually DOES use a ton of alk when given the opportunity. So don't be surprised if you do end up using a lot here, especially after an upgrade. This is also because water actually has a fairly limited solubility of carbonate compared to calcium, so alk fluctuates more than calc.

[mark]

maybe slow down? With the dosing, water changes and supplementing going to be hard to figure things out.

Once you confirm your test kits and that the volume being dosed is what's expected, might try slowly manually supplementing levels, once stabilized, turn on the doser just to maintain your target levels.

If you're doing RHF DIY solutions (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php) there's a chart for how much a day for a guide.

[fishytime]

Calcium, magnesium and carbonate hardness need to be thought of as a perfect triangle...... the big three.....if one one these sides of the triangle are out of whack it makes maintaining/altering your other parameters very difficult...... you need to achieve a balance......once things are in balance, maintaining/ altering the parameters.....is easy.....as mentioned, there are many reef additive calculators out there that will help you determine how much of the product you use, you will need to use......... now that you are into a larger tank you will likely find that using off the shelf additives will no longer be economical......look into buying your additives in bulk.........Im not sure what dosing pump your running and what features it has, but if you can, try doing the math and setting the pumps to dose several times a day......"one shot" doses are ok if you have to do it that way, but dosing several times a day will limit the large spike, gradual decline effect that "one shot" dosing has.....this is what I love about the profilux dosers......I can dose small amounts 24 times a day and my parameters or rock solid......something that really has a positive effect on the finickier corals.....

[doch]

OK... I'll try to respond to everything at once... hopefully I din't miss anything.

I have both elos and Hanna for Ca... just switching over to the Hanna as I just got it. The readings seem to be different, but I'll verifiy that later.

As for the Mg, elos test kit... it is about a year old. I'm not sure that I trust it.

Alk - I'm at the tail end of the bottle of the Master test kit for this, and I now have the hanna checker. Readings between these two seem to be very close.

As for the actual testing process, I see what you're saying. There can be discrepancies when things aren't exactly the same as far as process, but even to put things in the ballpark, something is not right.

I think I'm going to go home in the morning (I'm on nights) and test everything again with all of the kits that I have. Hopefully this will shed a little light on the situation. I'm also thinking that I'll follow advice above and get everything to the appropriate levels manually, and then continue with doing. The main one that concerns me though is the Mg... if I'm not dosing Mg, and the levels are going up... WTF!? How do I get it down to 1350 if that's the case? Something is not right. I don't trust the Mg test kit. What is a good brand of Mg test kit?

[Maverick00]

the calcium checker has been in stores for a few weeks

really? i havent seen it here yet, Ill have to pick one up!

[fishytime]

really? i havent seen it here yet, Ill have to pick one up!

try Red Coral Online:wink::biggrin:

[Myka]

try Red Coral Online:wink::biggrin:

Shameless self-promotion.

[mark]

for the Ca tester some negative threads here and other forums about ease of use (lack of) and non-repeatability.

[doch]

for the Ca tester some negative threads here and other forums about ease of use (lack of) and non-repeatability.


Yeah, I'm not 100% sold on this one.... err... well.. I guess I am since I bought one... lol. I do trust my elos Ca, so I'll go home and test with both and see what's up. The Phosphate and Alk ones seem great!

[Tracey2]

Sailfert is good for mag, I would definitely replace your elos if its going up wihtout adding. I like the alk & phosphate hanna but am not loving the calcium and feel I have to double check it with my sailfert, disappointing to have to have 2 test kits. I find if I focus on alk and keeping it steady everything else falls into place, unless calcium is really high making it difficult to maintain alk, I test alk, calculate dose and just dose calcium equally.

[Myka]

The main one that concerns me though is the Mg... if I'm not dosing Mg, and the levels are going up... WTF!? How do I get it down to 1350 if that's the case? Something is not right. I don't trust the Mg test kit. What is a good brand of Mg test kit?

If your inhabitants are too concerned about it, I don't think you should be either. Honestly, I think there is some testing or kit discrepancies. It takes a TON of Mg to go from 1300-1900 Mg. To give you an idea I use about 1 cup of Mg mix to go up by 100 ppm on my 90 gallon tank.

I have had no issues using Salifert for Mg (I use Elos for Cal and Alk). I haven't used the Elos kit for Mg.

You didn't say which salt you're using. Have you done any water changes in the time that you have been messing with the dosing?

[doch]

UN-#$%&ing-believable.

Come home today and run a test.

Mg... same as yesterday... this to me is positive believe it or not.
Ca... Hanna Checker says 486, Elos says somewhere between 250 and 300. Judging from the comments here, I'm going to side with the Elos, and give dirty looks to the Hanna.
Alk. F. FFFFFFF. I can't believe it. Tested yesterday... ~5dKh, added a little alk raiser.... 14.8. WTF!?!?!? I'm running 250 gallons of water... I added approximately 2 heaping spoons worth of this stuff along with the normal daily dose. Seriously?
Dosing pump for the Alk is off... I'll test again tomorrow... hopefully it comes down.

BTW... I also ran out of the Hagen KH test fluid, so I can't comment on the difference between the 2. Last i checked though, they were very close to the same. What's with the Hanna Ca Checker? They sure seem to have pooped the bed on this one... 200 ppm off of the Elos? Wow.

[Myka]

So right now the only doser running is the calcium? I would just leave it like that and alkalinity and Mg will sort itself out.

Boost your calcium up to 450 ppm (over 24 hours)...this will lower the alkalinity a bit. I have had alkalinity up to 19 dKH before it started to irritate corals.

Did you have dosers before the move?

[doch]

So right now the only doser running is the calcium? I would just leave it like that and alkalinity and Mg will sort itself out.

Boost your calcium up to 450 ppm (over 24 hours)...this will lower the alkalinity a bit. I have had alkalinity up to 19 dKH before it started to irritate corals.

Did you have dosers before the move?

Yeah, I did. That's the thing... it went so smoothly the first time around. I set them up, guessed at 20 mL/day, tested the next week, adjusted to 25mL/day, and it was perfect. Done.

I'll add a little Ca and try again tomorrow. Thanks

[viperfish]

What kind of dosing pumps are you using? I ran your Alk numbers (5 to 14.8) on the BRS calculator with your tank volume and it would take 630 ml of recipe 1 to gain that much. So whatever you're adding is some potent stuff. I still think there must be an error on the testing side of things, either with the kit or the method. An alk increase of that much would kill almost any SPS and shock the hell out of any other coral. I'm with fishytime on this one, go get yourself some bulk chemicals, and use accurate dosing pumps. You only need two pumps, the Mag doesn't get dosed as much as the Calk and Alk, I actually use an IV bag for Mag and it works like a dream. Once you have the right hardware, go to the BRS site and follow their instructions to the letter and I guarantee you will have success.

[Cal_stir]

what salt are you using?
H2Ocean is bad for settling out during transport and you must mix the salt up before using it, if you don't, your levels will be all over the place.
I do not about other salts doing the same thing

[doch]

I actually do have alk brs stuff, mixed to their specs. I'm running 3 of the dosing pumps that oc sells... Can't remember the brand name. I'm sure it's a test issue... There's no way that it could jump that much that fast... Unless my controller glitched and left my alk pump on all day... But it was off when I got home.

I do use h2 ocean salt... Never had any problems before.

[Cal_stir]

apparently H2Ocean uses different grain sizes for their ca, alk, and mag, and if it had a bumpy ride in the truck they settle at different levels in the pail, could be your problem.
try testing your mix before adding it to your tank.

[fishytime]

what salt are you using?
H2Ocean is bad for settling out during transport and you must mix the salt up before using it, if you don't, your levels will be all over the place.
I do not about other salts doing the same thing

I would recommend to everyone that they roll their buckets of salt before using them......no matter what brand you use:wink:

[doch]

I would recommend to everyone that they roll their buckets of salt before using them......no matter what brand you use:wink:

Doug, when you say roll... you literally just mean to take the full bucket and say roll it down the driveway a few times or what? I always wondered about an easy way to do this.

[fishytime]

Doug, when you say roll... you literally just mean to take the full bucket and say roll it down the driveway a few times or what? I always wondered about an easy way to do this.

yup......roll it down the driveway......roll it down the hill.......roll some sod with it........roll it down the river........whatever floats your boat......I prefer the living room with a couple tumbles thrown in for good measure....

[freezetyle]

yup......roll it down the driveway......roll it down the hill.......roll some sod with it........roll it down the river........whatever floats your boat......I prefer the living room with a couple tumbles thrown in for good measure....

I put a bucket on each end of a barbell and slam out a few reps to really shake it up. :lol: