Reducing Nitrates

[Reef Pilot]

I have an old tank (100 g with a sump and lots of live rock) with a heavy bio load, and I notice that my nitrates are pretty high, about 40 - 90. I do change 20% water once a month, and have a skimmer that produces about 1/2 a cup of black skimmate a week. I don't have any delicate corals, but the tank is full of Colt Corals, Frogspawn, large Bubble Coral, big Toadstool, some zoas, and some other smaller corals, and they seem to be doing fine. I have to add CA and buffer (to keep KH up) every few days. I have about 10 fish, biggest being a 5 inch Foxface, and 4 inch Yellow Tang, also smaller butterflies and fair sized Cinnamon Clown (with a bulldog attitude), who seems to have a bottomless stomach.

Anyway, fish and corals that I have all seem healthy, but would like to add some more delicate and colorful corals, and prune back more of my other corals. But I think I should get my nitrates down more before I do that. I could change water more often, but that gets expensive with salt.

I read and heard that some people use carbon dosing and bio pellets to help reduce nitrates (and phosphates). So I decided to try the Vertex Pro-Bio pellets with a reactor. However, after reading up on that, saw some cautions about how to get started, and the risk of creating Cyano red slime, and other problems. And the instructions recommend using a nitrate bacteria starter, as well as something to get rid of the Cyano.

I notice there are a few products available for this, but are there some that people would recommend for the bacteria starter, and Cyano?

Any advice or help with his would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Aquaria]

I'm using brightwells microbacter7 it's what the chick at jlaquatics recommended Same pellets

[Myka]

40 ppm nitrate is big, 90 ppm is huge. If you are looking at delicate corals you should aim to be under 10 ppm. I'm not into the bio pellet rage as I have heard too many negative reviews and have seen too many tanks with massive cyano outbreaks from using them. Imo, a little elbow grease will get you the same results.

Nitrate is created by organic breakdown. Basically you need to d a better job cleaning your tank and the nitrate will come down. However, your live rock and sandbed will leech nitrate for quite some time. You need to prevent organic breakdown from happening. Do you have any bio media in your filters? Bioballs, ceramic rings, anything like that? If so, you need to slowly remove these by 1/4 each week until they are all gone. How about sponges or pads? Any sponges/pads need to be replaced (not rinsed) every week at least.

Next, take a look at the sandbed. How deep is it? The deeper it is the more likely it is to collect detritus. If the sandbed is really old and has never been cleaned I would suggest removing it. Removal can be fatal to the tank if precautions aren't taken...ask if you want more info.

Next, take a peek at powerheads. Is detritus settling on the sand anywhere? If so, add powerheads or adjust current powerheads to blow there so detritus can't settle there anymore.

Then start feeding your fish less, and make sure you just feed a little at a time so it doesn't blow all over the tank. Switch to pellets instead of flake or frozen. When feeding frozen thaw in a cup of water, and then strain the food so that dirty water goes down the drain instead of in your tank.

Finally, if you have a heavy bioload, consider finding homes for a fish or two. What do you want more? Corals or fish?

[Reef Pilot]

Thanks for the response, Myka. Good advice, and can't disagree with anything you said. The best solution would be to take my tank apart, clean everything, rearrange my live rock and corals, and basically reset up the entire tank. I plan to do that down the road, but would like to try a few things first to see if I can bring down the nitrates without redoing everything. Like I said, everything in the tank looks pretty healthy, except my nitrates are high.

Currently I vacuum my sand bed, clean my live rock with a tooth brush where I see some debris or algae, and clean my filters about every 2 weeks, but there many parts that I can't get at, so no doubt that is contributing to the nitrate problem with the collection of detritus. I do have lots of flow in the tank, so that is a good thing. But I do have some sponge and filter material in the filters to catch any floating debris. But I try to clean those frequently, before they can produce too much nitrate, but quite possibly they are contributing to the problem as well.

I try to feed my fish carefully, mostly freeze dried, which floats and gets eaten before it settles. Also, I feed pellets, but again make sure they are consumed. They do get some frozen, maybe once a week, but that is well washed in RO water, before going into my tank. And I don't think I have too many fish for my tank size. I have already sold a couple fish, one large Bird Wrasse, which was a real pig eater. So my fish bio load has come down. My biggest eaters currently are the Foxface, and the Cinnamon Clown. The Foxface keeps growing, though, so I guess that doesn't help.

In any case, I still want to try the bio pellet route, just to see if this would work on my tank. If not, or it causes other problems, will then have to get on with redoing the tank. I have read and talked to some people that said it worked wonders for them, with reducing nitrate, and handling a high bio load.

So, I am still looking for suggestions on what bacteria starter to use, and how to kill cyano. From what I have read, those are very important cautions with using bio pellets.

[Reef Pilot]

I'm using brightwells microbacter7 it's what the chick at jlaquatics recommended Same pellets

Thanks, I can try that. Also, have heard that Chemi-Clean works well to kill Cyano. Have also had some recommend dosing with Vodka prior to introducing the bio pellets.

Any more thoughts on those suggestions?

[apexifd]

Thanks, I can try that. Also, have heard that Chemi-Clean works well to kill Cyano. Have also had some recommend dosing with Vodka prior to introducing the bio pellets.

Any more thoughts on those suggestions?

heard some people crash their tank using chemi-clean. you can get some sand sifter to get rid of the cyano on sand, and turkey baster to blow them off the rock.

They will eventually go away when you get your nutrient down.

and you don't really need to start vodka pior to pellets. just start with 1/2 of require amount, and add more slowly. Usually microbacter7 from brightwell or similar products should also help in terms of adding more diversity of nitrifying bacteria.

[apexifd]

I'm using brightwells microbacter7 it's what the chick at jlaquatics recommended Same pellets

Renee???

[Myka]

ChemiClean works well. The only people that crash their tanks are the ones who don't read the directions. It's really not a big deal, just keep the tank aerated with a stone or let the skimmer overflow (remove the cup).

I like the Prodibio products for bacteria. They have a BioClean product that works really well. It's a combination of two of their products.

A sulphur denitrator would be the easiest way to lower such high nitrate, but it can be a tricky piece of equipment. Best run with an ORP controller.

[Aquaria]

Renee???

Prob, brown Curley hair? Works up front

[Reef Pilot]

A sulphur denitrator would be the easiest way to lower such high nitrate, but it can be a tricky piece of equipment. Best run with an ORP controller.
I have never heard of a sulphur denitrator. But I have heard that dosing with vodka works also, and was told to try that first. Sounds almost too simple. Anyone have any experience with that?

[reefwars]

hummm it doesnt make sense to me why your nitrates are so high your feeding light amounts, regular water changes, your bioload isnt really that high, your cleaning your tank,running skimmer,corals are alive....how old is your rock??? what are your phosphate readings?? lots of LHA?? are you sure your test kit is accurate???

[reefwars]

personally i would up the water changes to a larger volume maybe 20% a week that will bring it down considerately but you will need to find out where its coming from or it will just come back,like myka said elbow grease is the cure basically not to pollute your tank and keep it clean,adjust your flow so ditrius doesnt settle in dead spots.feed a bit less untill its down.

[fishytime]

I agree with Denny, more and larger water changes.......the solution doesnt lie in a bottle.....also 1/2 cup a week is diddly squat for skimmate, what kind of skimmer is it?.....my BK will produce that much in a day!

[Parker]

my BK will produce that much in a day!


Mr. Fancy Pants! :mrgreen:

[paddyob]

ChemiClean works well. The only people that crash their tanks are the ones who don't read the directions. It's really not a big deal, just keep the tank aerated with a stone or let the skimmer overflow (remove the cup).


Hit and miss with Chemi Clean. Once it worked fantastically. This last batch... my zoas started to decline and the cyano went nowhere.

I agree Myka.... nitrates are user error or improper cleaning.

Keep up the maintenance and reduce feeding. All will be fine. Don't overthink the problem either!

I have ten, well fed (meaning 2 feedings daily/minimum) fish in my 70 and my nitrates are consistently zero. As is NO2, PO4.

I do a water change monthly. Run my skimmer and two reactors (warner ecobak, carbon).

Keep it simple. The more you do... the more room for error.

[paddyob]

I have never heard of a sulphur denitrator. But I have heard that dosing with vodka works also, and was told to try that first. Sounds almost too simple. Anyone have any experience with that?

Bignose is using Vodka. Message him.

[Money pit]

Once you have your No3 under control, give a thought to adding a refugium with algae or an Algae scrubber. The idea of a fuge with algae, is to use a type of algae that is more efficient at using No3 and Po4 then green hair. I think most people agree Chaeto is the type to use.
An algae scrubber is a similar concept, but rather than using an efficient algae, your giving the algae a better place to grow other than your display tank. With a scrubber you use fast flow and lots of light to grow turf or green hair on a plastic canvas surface.
I've use both and they work equally well, both have pluses and minuses when compared to each other. With a fuge you can set it up as its own display, with all the creatures that eventually start showing up, it can be interesting, a negative is that it works best in its own small tank or container, unless you have an empty compartment in your sump.
A scrubber can be set up above the sump, but its not very attractive, so its best used where it isn't on display, on the plus side if you put a fan on the scrubber it works like the rad in your car, and will lower the temp of the tank. I have a scrubber on my tank, I'm on the 3rd floor of an apt bldg and the temp stays below 80 in the summer.

[paddyob]

Once you have your No3 under control, give a thought to adding a refugium with algae or an Algae scrubber. The idea of a fuge with algae, is to use a type of algae that is more efficient at using No3 and Po4 then green hair. I think most people agree Chaeto is the type to use.
An algae scrubber is a similar concept, but rather than using an efficient algae, your giving the algae a better place to grow other than your display tank. With a scrubber you use fast flow and lots of light to grow turf or green hair on a plastic canvas surface.
I've use both and they work equally well, both have pluses and minuses when compared to each other. With a fuge you can set it up as its own display, with all the creatures that eventually start showing up, it can be interesting, a negative is that it works best in its own small tank or container, unless you have an empty compartment in your sump.
A scrubber can be set up above the sump, but its not very attractive, so its best used where it isn't on display, on the plus side if you put a fan on the scrubber it works like the rad in your car, and will lower the temp of the tank. I have a scrubber on my tank, I'm on the 3rd floor of an apt bldg and the temp stays below 80 in the summer.


I am not familiar with a scrubber. Seems interesting to use it also for cooling.

Could you post a pic?

[Gripenfelter]

What kind of skimmer do you have?

My old skimmer produced 1/2 cup of crap per week.

New one pulls 1 L of dark green matter every day. I found my nitrate count was higher if I turned it down to only pull out black crap.

Also I would do weekly 5% water changes instead of one big 20% one at the end of the month.

What food are you feeding the fish?

If your tank is fairly well stocked you might want to consider a refugium.

[Money pit]

I am not familiar with a scrubber. Seems interesting to use it also for cooling.

Could you post a pic?


Can'.t remember how to post pics, but if you go here
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/index.php?sid=afdb71b0d1fbaf9a3c39612e2735108f

You can learn all you need to know. There is alot of hype on the above forum, seems some have had fantastic results. My results have been good, but its not the be all and end all that some would have you believe, so take it all with a grain of salt.

[Reef Pilot]

What kind of skimmer do you have?

My old skimmer produced 1/2 cup of crap per week.

New one pulls 1 L of dark green matter every day. I found my nitrate count was higher if I turned it down to only pull out black crap.

Also I would do weekly 5% water changes instead of one big 20% one at the end of the month.

What food are you feeding the fish?

If your tank is fairly well stocked you might want to consider a refugium.
I don't know what kind of skimmer it is,... an old one, so it may not be the best. And not sure if I have it dialed right.

As for feeding, while I am careful that the fish eat all that I give them, I do feed them about 4 times a day, which I know is a lot. I added some new fish a number of months ago, incl delicate butterfly fish (which took a while to train), and want to make sure they are well fed and healthy. They have fattened up pretty good already and will be cutting back to one feeding a day in the future.

As I have mentioned, I want to try the bio pellet route, and maybe vodka dosing, just to see how it works. It is an old tank, and will be resetting in the future, and maybe sooner if this doesn't do it.

I do have a refugium, with lots of Chaeto, but it doesn't grow very quickly for some reason. My phosphates are not too high (last time I checked), but my nitrate is always very high.

[fishytime]

How old and what brand are your test kits?

[Gripenfelter]

I don't know what kind of skimmer it is,... an old one, so it may not be the best. And not sure if I have it dialed right.

As for feeding, while I am careful that the fish eat all that I give them, I do feed them about 4 times a day, which I know is a lot. I added some new fish a number of months ago, incl delicate butterfly fish (which took a while to train), and want to make sure they are well fed and healthy. They have fattened up pretty good already and will be cutting back to one feeding a day in the future.

As I have mentioned, I want to try the bio pellet route, and maybe vodka dosing, just to see how it works. It is an old tank, and will be resetting in the future, and maybe sooner if this doesn't do it.

I do have a refugium, with lots of Chaeto, but it doesn't grow very quickly for some reason. My phosphates are not too high (last time I checked), but my nitrate is always very high.


I have 21 fish. I feed them once a day. 2 pinches of spectrum pellets and a sheet of seaweed.

[lastlight]

I agree with Denny, more and larger water changes.......the solution doesnt lie in a bottle.....also 1/2 cup a week is diddly squat for skimmate, what kind of skimmer is it?.....my BK will produce that much in a day!

</ego-stroke-a-thon>

[fishytime]

</ego-stroke-a-thon>

oh, your just bitter you sold yours:razz:

[lastlight]

oh, your just bitter you sold yours:razz:

Well no kidding =)

[martinmcnally]

I battled with Nitrates for a LONG time. Tried everything from lights to sand to rock to skimmer etc. I was recommended bio-pellets. Tried one brand and it didnt make any difference then i tried Vertex Bio-Pellets, after about 3-4 months my Nirtates fell to zero and have never risen since. I think a good skimmer is a big part of the equation too though.

[Reef Pilot]

How old and what brand are your test kits?
About 6 months at most old. I have other tanks, too, and they test differently, plus have tried it on new SW, and nitrates come out zero, so I think they are quite accurate. I use the API test kit.

One thing I learned a long time ago, is that you need to follow directions on the test kit very carefully. Specifically, you need to shake the bottles and vial for at least 30 seconds after bottle #1 and then at least 1 minute after bottle #2 and let it sit for a few minutes after. If you don't do that, you will get a false low reading. Which is what may be happening to some people who think they have low nitrates.

Walter

[Reef Pilot]

I battled with Nitrates for a LONG time. Tried everything from lights to sand to rock to skimmer etc. I was recommended bio-pellets. Tried one brand and it didnt make any difference then i tried Vertex Bio-Pellets, after about 3-4 months my Nirtates fell to zero and have never risen since. I think a good skimmer is a big part of the equation too though.
Good to hear, and that is what I have heard from a few others. I just bought a Vertex reactor,and the Vertex Pro-bio pellets. I haven't set it up yet, and still doing research before I start. Seems like the most important thing is to start up slow, so that is what I am planning.

Have had more than one person tell me though, to start with slow vodka dosing first, and then the bio pellets with the reactor. So might try that too.

I don't think my skimmer is working right though, judging by what little skimmate I get, and from what I have heard from others. Will see what it does once I start the carbon dosing.

[Reef Pilot]

I've been running the Vertex bio pellets for about 5 months now, and have seen my nitrates gradually go down from a high of 100 to 20 with my latest test just today. My tank looks much better now, with rocks and sand bed surfaces fairly clean, and hair algae has completely disappeared.

I have a very old mature 100g tank (10 years running), which I inherited when we bought the house about a year and a half ago. The tank was a real mess, overgrown with soft corals, lots of detritus everywhere, and full of all kinds of algae. I was scrubbing the rocks with a toothbrush and vacuuming the sand every 2nd week at least. It helped a bit, but my nitrates stayed consistently high, usually at least 80. I was changing 20% water monthly, and still do the same. I have quite a few fish (always hungry) and I feed them quite a bit, probably about 4 times a day, although small amounts at a time.

Amazingly, my fish and the corals didn't seem to mind the high nitrates, and always seemed quite happy. I had to do some major trimming of my corals, as they took over my whole tank right to the surface water. Now my fish have more room to swim, too. I dose a lot of calcium and alk buffer, too, to keep those parameters up.

My plan going forward is actually to reset this tank, and I am in the process of setting up a new 135g downstairs so I can transfer the fish and corals during. I am planning to go either bare bottom, or a very thin sand bed. Then I want to try my hand with more fancy corals like SPS and Zoas.

But I wanted to see if these bio pellets work, and would have to say they definitely do, judging from the results. I should mention that I also used MB7, and started off very gradually with the amount of bio pellets in my media reactor. That kept me from having any cyano or other undesirable effects from the bio pellets.

Anyway, just a FYI, in case anyone else is thinking of going this route.

[daniella3d]

I had to stop using Brightwell MB7 and biofuel because of cyano outbreak. Do you think that it's the pellets that made a difference in your case? Before I was dosing with vitamin C and had no cyano, one week after starting MB7 and biofuel I had cyano growing everywhere. I stopped and the cyano is almost gone now.

As for the chemiclean, I used it and it worked well, but the cyano will return of the conditions are right so this is not a definitive solution.

But I wanted to see if these bio pellets work, and would have to say they definitely do, judging from the results. I should mention that I also used MB7, and started off very gradually with the amount of bio pellets in my media reactor. That kept me from having any cyano or other undesirable effects from the bio pellets.

Anyway, just a FYI, in case anyone else is thinking of going this route.

[Reef Pilot]

I was actually dosing MB7 prior to using the bio pellets, based on research with other users (reef central). The MB7 introduces beneficial bacteria which is what the bio pellets use and actually prevents cyano, or so I was led to believe. In any case, I never had any cyano problems at all in this tank.

Having said that, I did have a cyano outbreak in another tank, but that tank was totally aside from this one, and I did not use MB7 or bio pellets with that one. However, I did treat it with ChemiClean and it only took one treatment to clear it up, and the cyano has never returned.