Do I need to reinforce the floor?

[Gripenfelter]

7 foot 200 gallon tank with stand will weigh about 2500 lbs.

It will sit length wise on 2 floor joists that are 16" apart.

The tank will sit perpendicular to an exterior wall.

Joists are wooden I-beams and sitting in the concrete wall on one side and the other side is sitting on a steel beam.

Joists are 15 feet long between the concrete wall and steel I beam.

Do I need to reinforce the floor or will I be ok?

House built in 2009.

[jostafew]

Big tank like that running parallel to the floor joists, I wouldn't do it. This is an incredibly obvious suggestion but any chance you can come out from one of the side walls to be crossing all the joists?

[Gripenfelter]

Yeah I'm looking into that.

[shootingstar]

that is the same size system I was looking at initially.

FWIW
Hubby works in the field so when I mentioned it he got "that look" on his face.....and headed into the office.
After half an hour clacking away on the keyboard and the calculator he came back out and explained just how extensive the renovations to the structure would be.

Our house was built in 98 and is a 4-level side split.

I pondered it for a day or two but eventually decided (for me at least) that it meant crossing that line from obsession to "really ought to be under observation" so I just couldn't do it and modified the plan.

Just my 2 cents, you need to get someone qualified to crunch your numbers and then decide.

[reefwars]

is the floor open from underneathe?? if so build a load bearing wall either permanately or temporarily. fwiw ive had a 180g in the same situation loaded with everything and i had 2x 10 joists and it was fine, not saying its ideal but you would be surprised what your floor holds and my house was 60 yrs old lol;) id still brace it from underneathe if possible:)

[wolf_bluejay]

7 foot 200 gallon tank with stand will weigh about 2500 lbs.

It will sit length wise on 2 floor joists that are 16" apart.

The tank will sit perpendicular to an exterior wall.

Joists are wooden I-beams and sitting in the concrete wall on one side and the other side is sitting on a steel beam.

Joists are 15 feet long between the concrete wall and steel I beam.

Do I need to reinforce the floor or will I be ok?

House built in 2009.

Just looking at the numbers, and I'm somewhat guessing because you don't specify the height of the wood I-beams.
This is a bad, very bad idea without reinforcement.
I doubt the floor would fail, but the flex in the floor from the weight would probably cause the tank to break. A 15' span is pretty big, and with a 7' tank you are going right to the middle of it. And to give you an idea, if you have a "larger" friend, say 300' or so, get him to stand where the corner of the tank would go, and put a glass of water on the floor nearby. And now stand back and get him to jump up and down. Not hard, just bounce repeatedly. You will see the "flex" in the floor.

As well, a 200 gal will weigh in much more than 2500 lbs and closer to 4000 lbs with sump, glass, rock stand and other equipment.
For comparison -- my 220 gal is perpendicular to my joists, with the back side of the 6' tank resting directly above a concrete wall. The joist span if only 8.5'.
I added a closet below the tank on one side, so the span is really only 6' and I added extra joists so that the tank was on 7 instead of 2. I glued and screwed the extra joists to the existing, and beefed up the main beams they rested on. The tank is not on a regular stand, but rather a 3' "wall" build with larger lumber.
I really overbuilt the support, but it cost me a total of $100 to sleep at night. and even after all this, the floor deflected still by about 1/32" when the tank was filled.

So, do you want a tank that moves, shakes and slops all over the place when someone walks past it. Or do you want a tank that doesn't scare the crap out of the kids if you jump on the floor in the room?

Honestly, support the tank. I had a 90 gal before my 220, and it moved a bit as you bounced on the floor while working on it. With the new one, I could have a party beside the tank and feel comfortable.

Just build a closet at the around the tank below (you might have to do a little concrete work as well).

[lastlight]

Great advice there! Our floors will hold whatever we place on them realistically but it's how they hold them. My 225 had poured footings, massive LVL behind and jackposts in front. You could jump as much as you wanted without much more then the SLIGHTEST of a little ripple on the surface.

My 34g Solana bounced around my livingroom like crazy so I even tossed a jackpost under it (still under my 97g). If you have access underneath use it!

[Myka]

7 foot 200 gallon tank with stand will weigh about 2500 lbs. It will sit length wise on 2 floor joists that are 16" apart. The tank will sit perpendicular to an exterior wall.

I come from a carpentry background. I wouldn't do this. What is the floor like on the level below? Dirt? Concrete?

Here's the options I would use:

1. Turn the tank the other way to go across several joists.

2. Reinforce the floor with several short beams running perpendicular to the tank under the current floor joists with adjustable steel jack posts holding them up (don't forget to secure the tops and bottoms of the posts). This would be really easy to remove in the future should you move or take the tank down. However, you need a good base to set the jack posts on.

http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/images3/steel%20jackpost%20adj.JPG

[Gripenfelter]

I guess I should mention I have granite and marble tile flooring.

So the joists are about 12" in height.

On top of that there is plywood. On top of plywood there is a few millimetres of concrete, then a steel wire mesh, 2-3 mm more concrete, then a 12-14 mm thick granite or marble tile.

I come from a carpentry background. I wouldn't do this. What is the floor like on the level below? Dirt? Concrete?

Here's the options I would use:

1. Turn the tank the other way to go across several joists.

2. Reinforce the floor with several short beams running perpendicular to the tank under the current floor joists with adjustable steel jack posts holding them up (don't forget to secure the tops and bottoms of the posts). This would be really easy to remove in the future should you move or take the tank down. However, you need a good base to set the jack posts on.

http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/images3/steel%20jackpost%20adj.JPG


Basement is concrete. Floor is a floating concrete pad. I was told not to put a telepost there because it would shatter the concrete where it stood.

I can jump up and down all I want around my 120 tank and barely a ripple in the water. I had throught about joining the bottom of the joists together with 2x4s. Hmm.

[Myka]

I guess I should mention I have granite and marble tile flooring.

So the joists are about 12" in height.

On top of that there is plywood. On top of plywood there is a few millimetres of concrete, then a steel wire mesh, 2-3 mm more concrete, then a 12-14 mm thick granite or marble tile.

Basement is concrete. Floor is a floating concrete pad. I was told not to put a telepost there because it would shatter the concrete where it stood.

I can jump up and down all I want around my 120 tank and barely a ripple in the water. I had throught about joining the bottom of the joists together with 2x4s. Hmm.

You're going to crack the tiles and/or dislodge them or the grout if you put that big tank on there without a lot of reinforcement.

Whoever told you that you will crack the concrete below was probably right (it won't "shatter" though). Do you know how thick it is? You would probably have to cut out a similar shape to your tank (except bigger each direction), and dig out the dirt below to pour a thick footing to put the jack posts on. Depends how badly you want to put the tank there I suppose! ;)

[Gripenfelter]

You're going to crack the tiles and/or dislodge them or the grout if you put that big tank on there without a lot of reinforcement.

Whoever told you that you will crack the concrete below was probably right (it won't "shatter" though). Do you know how thick it is? You would probably have to cut out a similar shape to your tank (except bigger each direction), and dig out the dirt below to pour a thick footing to put the jack posts on. Depends how badly you want to put the tank there I suppose! ;)

My home builder told me it would crack. Sorry I said shatter. He said crack.

The concrete floor in the basement is 5" thick I believe. The house sits on 24 concrete piles with the exterior walls and centre steel post resting on the piles.

[Myka]

I'm not familiar with prairie building codes (my carpentry experience was in BC), why is your house on piles? I'm assuming you're calling it a basement because it is a living space under the tank, right? With a living space below it could be quite the eyesore to reinforce the floor. Why don't you just get your home builder to come in and suggest a way to reinforce the floor?

Personally, I would just figure out a different way to position the tank.

[Gripenfelter]

I'm not familiar with prairie building codes (my carpentry experience was in BC), why is your house on piles? I'm assuming you're calling it a basement because it is a living space under the tank, right? With a living space below it could be quite the eyesore to reinforce the floor. Why don't you just get your home builder to come in and suggest a way to reinforce the floor?

Personally, I would just figure out a different way to position the tank.

Home builder suggested slipping in another floor joist and connecting the bottoms of the joists together with 8 foot 2x4s or one steel beam.

Just curious if anyone else had any better ideas.

Wish I had my blue prints handy. Reinforcing the joists will not be an eye sore because it will be behind a suspended ceiling.

Gonna put the sump in the basement.

[Myka]

Is the ceiling dropped in the basement or open floor joists or?

You could probably do it with a steel beam, but I would be inclined to use 2 or 3 smaller ones than one big one just to get a lower profile on the underside of the floor. You would have to use good hangers to mount the beam underneath and span at least the 2 joists under the tank and then at least another 2 on either side so the beam(s) would meet with 6 joists.

[Gripenfelter]

It's an office type tile ceiling. Very easy to expose the joists.

I'll look into more joists thanks.

[Myka]

You're welcome. :)

You have space between the joists and the dropped ceiling? I'm just wondering if you have space to hide the beam(s).

I don't think 2x4's are going to be enough, and I don't think you need to add another joist (that's a real pain in @$$ to do). You want to transfer some of the weight from the 2 loaded joists onto other joists (whether you are using jack posts or a beam or WHY). If you use hangers to mount a small steel beam(s) perpendicular to the joists and attach them to neighbouring joists you can transfer the weight by preventing flex. Need good hangers and good hanger nails. i bet you would only need 4" steel beams.

[sphelps]

If access isn't an issue you could just bulkhead in the two supporting joists by adding layers of plywood to each side of the two joists. Add 3-4 layers each side, glue and screw and stagger the seams to span the 15 foot length. Just make sure the ends are properly supported on the concrete wall.

With the floor properly supported, you could build a stand that distributes the weight properly and if you add a layer of high density foam between the floor and the stand you shouldn't break any tiles. Grout lines might crack but that's easy fix, plus given it's marble or stone you probably wouldn't notice anyway.

[Gripenfelter]

You're welcome. :)

You have space between the joists and the dropped ceiling? I'm just wondering if you have space to hide the beam(s).

I don't think 2x4's are going to be enough, and I don't think you need to add another joist (that's a real pain in @$$ to do). You want to transfer some of the weight from the 2 loaded joists onto other joists (whether you are using jack posts or a beam or WHY). If you use hangers to mount a small steel beam(s) perpendicular to the joists and attach them to neighbouring joists you can transfer the weight by preventing flex. Need good hangers and good hanger nails. i bet you would only need 4" steel beams.

Where would I get steel beams from? Home Depot? Rona? McDiarmid Lumber?

If access isn't an issue you could just bulkhead in the two supporting joists by adding layers of plywood to each side of the two joists. Add 3-4 layers each side, glue and screw and stagger the seams to span the 15 foot length. Just make sure the ends are properly supported on the concrete wall.

With the floor properly supported, you could build a stand that distributes the weight properly and if you add a layer of high density foam between the floor and the stand you shouldn't break any tiles. Grout lines might crack but that's easy fix, plus given it's marble or stone you probably wouldn't notice anyway.

Grout is epoxy so it stays flexible.

Not sure quite what you mean to do with the plywood.

[mike31154]

I've been gathering the pieces and planning for a set up somewhat similar to what you have in mind with basement sump. Decided to build a bit of a fish room more or less under the area the display will sit. It's about 6' x 5' and in addition to housing sump, fuge, etc etc, it should take care of any support issues that may arise. The floor joist span in that area is 9' & goes from outside wall to another support at the central chimney. Each side of that the span is longer, 11' to a wall that separates the basement roughly in half down the center. Joist support where they meet the chimney blocks looks a little iffy, appears there's just a cross member attached to the longer joists each side of the chimney. This is another reason I feel better about having the extra support the fish room framing will provide. Here's a pic, not great but should give an idea.


https://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pEPkftbctG41-TbWBeL8f9YRH0_iBJ2Ze_P9p_as6zxlCNf3ChmlygHLc-MaFf9f3zFG1NDrHplA/P1010894a.JPG?psid=1

The plan is for a custom tank in the 5' range & it will be positioned above the far wall framing in the photo. This is a 5' span & top framing is directly under the joist, so should be well supported. Left side of photo you can just see the last 2x4 of the 6' wall. Anyhow, it appears you're still in the planning phase & with basement sump I thought I'd throw the idea out there for a fish room, two birds with one stone. Either way, I'd recommend some additional support.

[Gripenfelter]

Thanks Mike. We eventually will frame in the basement but the problem is I was told that you should never let the basement framing touch the ceiling because the floor is a floating floor and can move. As the house settles the basement floor can crack and move but the upper floors don't. But if you attach the basement framed walls to the floor and joists they will push or pull on the upper floors.

Our house is only 2 yrs old so a lot of settling still involved.

[mike31154]

Aha, yeah, my old place was built in the late '50s, so barring earthquakes, I think it has done it's settling.

[sphelps]

Where would I get steel beams from? Home Depot? Rona? McDiarmid Lumber?



Grout is epoxy so it stays flexible.

Not sure quite what you mean to do with the plywood.
You can get steel I-beams from Varsteel or some kind of steel supplier in the area.

This is what I mean by creating the plywood bulkhead

Start with joist
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist4.jpg

Add plywood layer to cover entire span
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist2.jpg

Repeat staggering seams
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist3.jpg

Repeat again staggering seams and do other side.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist.jpg

You're simply increasing the strength of the beams (joists). By adding 3-4 layers each side on both supporting joists your floor will be strong enough to support the load without deflection.

[Gripenfelter]

Just heard back from the contractor.

He said the way they would do it would be to throw in another joist and connect the other joists together with 8 foot 2x6s and then support the joists with one or two teleposts. The concrete floor will support 2000 lbs per square inch. As long as the telepost has a wide food print it should be ok.

[Gripenfelter]

You can get steel I-beams from Varsteel or some kind of steel supplier in the area.

This is what I mean by creating the plywood bulkhead

Start with joist
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist4.jpg

Add plywood layer to cover entire span
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist2.jpg

Repeat staggering seams
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist3.jpg

Repeat again staggering seams and do other side.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/Joist.jpg

You're simply increasing the strength of the beams (joists). By adding 3-4 layers each side on both supporting joists your floor will be strong enough to support the load without deflection.

AWESOME IDEA!! I like it!!

[mike31154]

Just heard back from the contractor.

He said the way they would do it would be to throw in another joist and connect the other joists together with 8 foot 2x6s and then support the joists with one or two teleposts. The concrete floor will support 2000 lbs per square inch. As long as the telepost has a wide food print it should be ok.

Ok, sorry but now I'm getting confused. In an earlier post you mentioned you had been told about not allowing basement framing to touch the ceiling (I assume that means joists). Something about floating floors and things settling etc. Your contractor now suggests adding joists & teleposts with wide footprints. The way I look at it, my wooden framing is a rather long, albeit narrow footprint and it is made of wood, therefore does have some room to flex no matter where it's attached. Also, as mentioned my basement already has framing supporting the joists down the center for support. How is that different than adding additional framing to support more weight. I'm certainly no expert on these matters and you have me wondering if what I'm planning is sound. Just trying to understand all the different angles here.

[Gripenfelter]

Ok, sorry but now I'm getting confused. In an earlier post you mentioned you had been told about not allowing basement framing to touch the ceiling (I assume that means joists). Something about floating floors and things settling etc. Your contractor now suggests adding joists & teleposts with wide footprints. The way I look at it, my wooden framing is a rather long, albeit narrow footprint and it is made of wood, therefore does have some room to flex no matter where it's attached. Also, as mentioned my basement already has framing supporting the joists down the center for support. How is that different than adding additional framing to support more weight. I'm certainly no expert on these matters and you have me wondering if what I'm planning is sound. Just trying to understand all the different angles here.

I guess I should elaborate.

The telepost is not bolted to the floor or the ceiling. Once a year you use a level to make sure the post and joist are still straight. If it moved you can adjust it via the nut at the top and loosen or tighten it accordingly to keep it straight. You can't do that with wood. :)

[kamil]

How large a tank can I get safely?

The house is from 1970.

The tank is to go perpendicular to 2"x8"joists which are 16" apart.
Parallel to the tank, (in the wall) is a beam composed of 4 2"x10"
Under one corner (of were the tanks is to be) there is a telescoping
support under the beam.

This seams strong, but ..
The 20 + 15 gallon tanks I have on a 4 legged metal 3/4" square tube stand ripple when a person or dog walks by.

Cheers,

Kamil