Legality question

[Myka]

I understand what is implied in the following posts. I know it is legal to drive across the border to the USA to pick up corals and bring them back to Canada provided you have the corals listed with genus and specie; for example Acropora tenuis. There is a list of corals that you can't bring across, and a competent border guard will check the names you have provided (most border guards aren't going to know if you lie about the names though, wherein lies a large import problem - and a different thread lol). I have never had any troubles doing this. I was under the impression that what you do with them after this (like selling frags) is totally legal. Am I mistaken?

I have brought a few pieces up from the states, and might see about bring some more up, but for me to sell something I brought up I would have to make it worth my while, or wait for it to be big enough to make my own frag.

You do know what you are admitting to right?

Please tell me you didnt post a picture of the act on facebook too?

Best to keep this private.

[phi delt reefer]

all stony corals require a CITES permit - so if you bring it into Canada without one then your technically doing something illegal. They are an Appendix 2 class - this means you just need a CITES Export permit filled out by the US retailer you are purchasing from and that will allow you to bring them into canada (no cites import permit reqd on appendix 2 items). The US agency that reviews the form can take up 90 days to approve.

the export permit must be filled in by the retailer and its a lot of work with a lot of dumb questions. Like who collected the item from the ocean, how was it collected, etc. Granted they have absolutely no way to verify this but it seems like a waste of everyones time. I would doubt that any retailer would be wiling to fill in the permit unless you are spending several hundred dollars with them.

you are allowed to bring them in for personal use or for resell but its a different permit. The resell one is even more paperwork and i believe there is a fee attached.

[fencer]

WRT Acros

Any transport of corals across international borders require a CITES tag. You only need to be caught once...
FYI...it is also illegal to transship province to province

[Myka]

Why do they let you drive across the border with these corals then? I have done it, I know many other people that have done it. They even told me in person that I would need CITIES to import using a shipping method, but to walk them across they can look at the corals so it's ok...same with fish. They just told me no live rock, and the corals can't be mounted on any natural surface over 1x1". I used to do this regularly in the early 90s, but haven't tried in recent years. If they tell me it is ok, then how could I get in trouble for it? :eek:

FYI...it is also illegal to transship province to province

You're saying that almost every vendor out there is conducting illegal business by shipping corals across any provincial border? Where do you get this info? There are A LOT of guilty parties out there!

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

The way I remember from few years back.
The fee I paid for a cities was $600 per shippment so the order has to be large enough to justify $600.
The paper work would have to be filled by the supplier and when done within 60 days usually 30 days.on arrival to your destination you have tofill another form and a customs inspection only sometimes is done on the shippment.
A bit of hassle unless you are a distributer or a retailer.
You will be lucky to find a retailer in the US to say sure for doing a cities unless like I said for a large order.

[fencer]

Either they don't care or they don't know what you have

[Myka]

Either they don't care or they don't know what you have

They looked on their computer, and asked me if I had some particular species that I had never heard of. :lol: I was like...14?? I went to the US bi-weekly and spent my babysitting money on fish, corals, and inverts. It was the closest LFS that had SW.

[ALang]

Interesting, Myka. Tagging along...

[fencer]

Even if you had what they listed on the computer and you said no they have no way of telling any way. I have brought stuff only by air and ask and inspect all the time. I don't do that now as someof the LFS in town do a good job at geting some choice stuff

[Myka]

Even if you had what they listed on the computer and you said no they have no way of telling any way.

Ya, that's a different topic though.

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

There seem to be a debait on the right answer, I think someone should give those guys a call and the right answer.
I think depending on the situation sometimes if you are a child or maybe a reefer with a couple pieces of corals showing its only for your tank they will simply letyou gowith no hassel.

[reefermadness]

whether the customs agent knows it or not CITES is still NEEDED for any stony corals including all SPS and LPS to legally import/export across CAN/US borders. This FACT is indisputable.

It sucks but its true. There are enough threads on the forum already about the subject.

[Myka]

There are enough threads on the forum already about the subject.

Ya, but it's all relative to the source. ;)

[phi delt reefer]

myka when i get home i wlll post my emails from the US and Canadian governing bodies for CITES...

they let you go when you were 14 - because you were 14 year old girl lol. They dont make me pay taxes on everything i bring over...its just an imperfect system. honestly you could just say "these are all softies" - bag em up 10 times and its not even going to look like anything online so they will just let it go. This is illegal though so if you get caught be prepared to screw yourself for life everytime you go back to the border.

problem with the cites list is that it lists the ORDER latin name which NONE of us recognize;

Kingdom:Animalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal)Phylum:Cnidaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnidaria)Class:Anthozoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthozoa)Order:Scleractinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scleractinia)Family:Acroporidae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acroporidae)Genus:Acropora


we are used to Acropora xyz... CITES Appendix two lists the ORDER Scleractinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scleractinia) as Stony Corals requiring CITES export permit. LPS falls into the same order but you can see how they screw us by saying everything under that ORDER is CITES controlled.

the forms for personal use of corals is free and their is no charges. As soon as its for a business be prepared to pay.

[Myka]

...problem with the cites list is that it lists the ORDER latin name

...CITES Appendix two lists the ORDER Scleractinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scleractinia) as Stony Corals requiring CITES export permit.

...the forms for personal use of corals is free and their is no charges. As soon as its for a business be prepared to pay.


Oh I see. Very interesting. That even counts Zoanthids which are often legal to export from countries. Hmm.

Are you saying that there are "personal use" CITIES permits? These are free? I assume they probably take several weeks to get in order? Is this where the whole "can't sell frags" law comes in? I can bring them in, but if I frag it I have to give it away instead of sell. Also very interesting.

[phi delt reefer]

Oh I see. Very interesting. That even counts Zoanthids which are often legal to export from countries. Hmm.

Are you saying that there are "personal use" CITIES permits? These are free? I assume they probably take several weeks to get in order? Is this where the whole "can't sell frags" law comes in? I can bring them in, but if I frag it I have to give it away instead of sell. Also very interesting.


yep - if you are just a collector then the cites export permit is free. if you are a retailer then its a different form and you have to pony up some cash.

its legal to export everything but live rock i believe. just need the right permits. fish dont need any permits unless its a controlled species (ie possible extinction or may cause harm to canadian eco system if released)

[msjboy]

from the previous threads, so has anyone actually brought in personal corals with some CITES form then?

I noticed that http://coralfanatics.com/shipping.html does have the ability to ship some corals internationally... does it mean if they provide paperwork of the corals, one can
a) bring it across the border from say a USA post PO box
b) or in what I read, get it in the Fedex mail albeit, expensive shipping.

Also, I know of some plant people who have CITES permits for plants.... do they have the ability to bring in corals for you then?

msjboy

[jorjef]

from the previous threads, so has anyone actually brought in personal corals with some CITES form then?

I noticed that http://coralfanatics.com/shipping.html does have the ability to ship some corals internationally... does it mean if they provide paperwork of the corals, one can
a) bring it across the border from say a USA post PO box
b) or in what I read, get it in the Fedex mail albeit, expensive shipping.

Also, I know of some plant people who have CITES permits for plants.... do they have the ability to bring in corals for you then?

msjboy

Funny this came up. I just asked about a week ago and the reply from Coral Fanatics was there was a $275.00 document charge and $75.00 shipping. I never inquired further on what the document charge covered.

[phi delt reefer]

lol i am not suprised they charged that much. I saw the US form and i didnt feel that any store would go to the hassle of filling it out unless i was going to spend some real money with them.

with that said - US importers buy from the same exporters as our Canadian importers buy from. If your store imports their own corals vs. buying from a local wholesaler you can see if they can bring in some better selection or piggyback off their order for your personal use.

[saltcreep]

It's been pretty much covered. All scleractinia require CITES permits, be it an export or re-export permit.

Since these corals are not endemic to the US, a re-export will be required to be obtained prior to shipping from the US. With that application the original export permit (from the original country of origin) will be required to be supplied to the US Fish and Wildlife.

It's a little blurry when dealing with cultured product as in many instances, tracing the original import to the US is almost impossible.

Yes, when dealing with CBSA (or Canadian Wildlife) they do not have the resources nor the knowledge to adequately deal with imports of coral. Further complicating things will be the new legislation coming into force in December that will oversee imports of fish (but that's a whole other ball of wax).

[Skimmerking]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting reading there Mindy and Phil

[chandigz]

Oh I see. Very interesting. That even counts Zoanthids which are often legal to export from countries. Hmm.

Are you saying that there are "personal use" CITIES permits? These are free? I assume they probably take several weeks to get in order? Is this where the whole "can't sell frags" law comes in? I can bring them in, but if I frag it I have to give it away instead of sell. Also very interesting.

Zoas/palys and softies are none cities. They should be fine as long as they are not attached to a coral based substrate. Only hard corals need cities permits. Any hard corals coming from the states require a re-export permit with a copy of the original export cities permit from the country of origin because the states do not have any of their own coral available for cities export.

[naesco]

A couple of points need to be re-stated and comments made.

It is simply illegal to import SPS into Canada without CITES permits accompanying the shipment.

If you attempt to do so you will be charged with a serious offence and the Courts will deal with you severely.

A hobbyist who imported a butterfly and got the exporter to falsify the invoice was fined $25,000.00 and the courts comments were harsh to him.

The comment that border staff would not be able to tell a softy from and SPS is not true.
Wildlife have experts on staff who can do a better job at identifying coral than 99% of us on this board.

If you get horny over a certain coral picture, print it out and take it to your LFS. They will find an exporter who will ship them one for you.

[intarsiabox]

A hobbyist who imported a butterfly and got the exporter to falsify the invoice was fined $25,000.00 and the courts comments were harsh to him.


I assume you are talking butterfly fish? A few people posted earlier that fish don't require cites yet, why would someone falsify a document to say otherwise? Was this an endangered one? Just curious as I prefer to buy fish after only seeing them first hand anyway.

[Myka]

If you get horny over a certain coral picture, print it out and take it to your LFS. They will find an exporter who will ship them one for you.

That's what I do! :mrgreen:

[naesco]

I assume you are talking butterfly fish? A few people posted earlier that fish don't require cites yet, why would someone falsify a document to say otherwise? Was this an endangered one? Just curious as I prefer to buy fish after only seeing them first hand anyway.

No it was a butterfly on the CITES list that the collector imported. Marine fish that we import do not require CITES yet. There was talk about putting the Bangaii Cardinal on the List but it was not approved.

[intarsiabox]

No it was a butterfly on the CITES list that the collector imported. Marine fish that we import do not require CITES yet. There was talk about putting the Bangaii Cardinal on the List but it was not approved.

Wow, that turned into one expensive bug!

[saltcreep]

If you get horny over a certain coral picture, print it out and take it to your LFS. They will find an exporter who will ship them one for you.

But that product still may not be able to be shipped to Canada. Again, there are issued with obtaining re-export permits from USFW for some cultured corals.

[lastlight]

Wholesalers just need to stumble upon similar looking corals with no specially described lineage right?

[saltcreep]

Sure can...as long as you are able to obtain permits. This is essence is the entire point of the thread. It is actually pretty black and white.

[lastlight]

I mean a wholesaler is always getting corals in. If they spot something that looks just like a red planet on a dive could they just bring that in via the same process they bring us Canadians all the other stuff we get? It would not be stamped ORA...

[saltcreep]

You're right. It then comes down to whether you are able to find those cherry pieces and be able to charge a premium.

[lastlight]

(Legally) Why is it so much worse to bring such a coral to Canada from the USA than it is from Fiji or something? Maybe I'm missing something. Is it just a USFW conspiracy to make Canadian tanks a bit less rad?

[naesco]

(Legally) Why is it so much worse to bring such a coral to Canada from the USA than it is from Fiji or something? Maybe I'm missing something. Is it just a USFW conspiracy to make Canadian tanks a bit less rad?

The point you are missing is that CITES dictates that SPS coral cannot be exported and imported without a CITES permit.
Otherwise an 'exporter' from China (the USA would not be a problem) could simply ship to Canada or any country illegal corals with only a re-export document and not the original CITES permit. It avoids fraud and places a heavy penalty on the orignal importer to ensure that the coral entered the country properly.

[lastlight]

Oh so all corals that the wholesalers sell to the retailers came with CITES? Sorry I guess I could actually do some reading on this too.

[fishytime]

Maybe I'm missing something. Is it just a USFW conspiracy to make Canadian tanks a bit less rad?

well that part of things is just simple math.......Canada is small potatoes, when you compare it to the European and U.S. markets.........collectors/distributors will appease the the big markets with the "cherry" corals.......but at least they throw us a bone up here every once in a while:wink:......

[lastlight]

well that part of things is just simple math.......Canada is small potatoes, when you compare it to the European and U.S. markets.........collectors/distributors will appease the the big markets with the "cherry" corals.......but at least they throw us a bone up here every once in a while:wink:......

Just be careful where you catch it I guess. Thanks for the education guys!

[fencer]

CITES is an international agreement not setup by usfw

[wickedfrags]

generally yes, but not always, depends on the country they are imported from

Oh so all corals that the wholesalers sell to the retailers came with CITES? Sorry I guess I could actually do some reading on this too.

true, but Toronto got into the game of "re-exporting" corals to the US many years back......you just need a good guy over there to pick corals for you

well that part of things is just simple math.......Canada is small potatoes, when you compare it to the European and U.S. markets.........collectors/distributors will appease the the big markets with the "cherry" corals.......but at least they throw us a bone up here every once in a while:wink:......

correct, and it is voluntary, not all countries choose to participate, Tonga being an example (at least 3-4 years back anyway). You don't get a CITES when you import from Tonga.

CITES is an international agreement not setup by usfw

[saltcreep]

(Legally) Why is it so much worse to bring such a coral to Canada from the USA than it is from Fiji or something? Maybe I'm missing something. Is it just a USFW conspiracy to make Canadian tanks a bit less rad?

It's not any "worse" exporting from the US versus any other country. The process is just a little different in that with permits from the US proof of legal import to the US has to be provided to the USFW in order to obtain the CITES re-export permit.

Otherwise an 'exporter' from China (the USA would not be a problem) could simply ship to Canada or any country illegal corals with only a re-export document and not the original CITES permit. It avoids fraud and places a heavy penalty on the orignal importer to ensure that the coral entered the country properly.

An exporter in China would not export using the original CITES permit. They would apply to the Chinese government (if they are a CITES signatory - I haven't checked) for a re-export permit but would require the original at the time of application.

Oh so all corals that the wholesalers sell to the retailers came with CITES? Sorry I guess I could actually do some reading on this too.

They should come with a CITES permit or an acceptable permit from a non-signatory country, otherwise they are illegal.

correct, and it is voluntary, not all countries choose to participate, Tonga being an example (at least 3-4 years back anyway). You don't get a CITES when you import from Tonga.

Tonga is a signatory so you do get a CITES permit. Marshall Islands an example of one that is not, however they do issue permits that are accepted by CITES signatory countries.

[naesco]

generally yes, but not always, depends on the country they are imported from



true, but Toronto got into the game of "re-exporting" corals to the US many years back......you just need a good guy over there to pick corals for you



correct, and it is voluntary, not all countries choose to participate, Tonga being an example (at least 3-4 years back anyway). You don't get a CITES when you import from Tonga.

http://cites.org/I/new/cites_map_l.gif non CITES members