Hole in the head

[Proteus]

My Sohal Has developed a patch above his eye. small but still noticeable also looks to be a little swelling. now I did just move some rock and he did get stuck a couple of times so im not sure if its a wound from him freakin out while i rescued him.lol

my tank is 130 gallon so lots of swimming room and diet is a mix of daily misas and or cut up shrimp, and macro every other day also eats NLS pelets daily, food is soaked in cod liver oil and garlic guard and occasionall Selcon. water quality is good I did have a Ph drop and a spike in amonias but that has been dealt with,the only other issue is KH is at 190. i have just made a 20% water chaange and removed the carbon from my tank.

Please give me a little insight as the only write ups found are based on cichlids in which says most part is ue to water quality and poor diet.

[daniella3d]

You should really remove all carbon as I have read often that it does contribute to this disease in saltwater fish. Also it is said that giving garlic on regular basis is not that good for the fish liver.

Just removing the carbon might do the trick.

"The history of activated carbon use at the Toledo Zoo has shown a correlation between the use of lignite (coal-based) carbon and the formation of HLLE lesions in some fishes. Moving the fish to aquariums without carbon filtration sometimes caused the lesions to heal without additional treatment. Once carbon use at the facility was curtailed over ten years ago, cases of HLLE greatly diminished.

Based on those preliminary observations, the Toledo Zoo funded this study, the objective of which was to demonstrate the relationship between carbon use and the development of HLLE. "

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/activated-carbon-hlle-smoking-gun-found

and another reference:

"There have been cases of HLLE where the only change needed was the removal of carbon. In these cases the HLLE developed while carbon was being used. Sometimes other treatments were attempted and either had no effect or did not fully solve the problem. When the carbon was removed the HLLE went away. In some cases the carbon was returned and immediately following the return of the carbon the HLLE returned as well. "

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquarium/carbon.php



My Sohal Has developed a patch above his eye. small but still noticeable also looks to be a little swelling. now I did just move some rock and he did get stuck a couple of times so im not sure if its a wound from him freakin out while i rescued him.lol

my tank is 130 gallon so lots of swimming room and diet is a mix of daily misas and or cut up shrimp, and macro every other day also eats NLS pelets daily, food is soaked in cod liver oil and garlic guard and occasionall Selcon. water quality is good I did have a Ph drop and a spike in amonias but that has been dealt with,the only other issue is KH is at 190. i have just made a 20% water chaange and removed the carbon from my tank.

Please give me a little insight as the only write ups found are based on cichlids in which says most part is ue to water quality and poor diet.

[naesco]

Ammonia?? How long has it been since your tank cycled? How many and what fish do you have in your tank?

Although tangs like non veggie food from time to time all tangs except the blue tang need algae to live and grow. What is the first ingredient on the NLS pellet label. It should be spirulina.
Go to the LFS and buy Wardleys spirulina discs or pellets. Wardley because it is spirulina.
Go to an Asian market and buy non flavoured nori.

You should be dropping in a couple of discs at least twice a day and have some nori on a clip.
Tangs feed all the time throughout the day.

It is important to use garlic extract when you add a tang to ward off ich but I would not be using it and the other stuff daily. Use selcon soaked food now and than.

[Proteus]

thanks for the great info

all carbon was removed the reason for cabon in the first place to remove a little metroplex as i had a stressed out firefish who devopled a little ick. i just never removed it thinking no harm.

and as for the ammonia it was from adding a little to much lr at one time and my ph probe was out of cal. but it was shortlived and is better now

i just did a test on the water prior to water change and nitraes were at 5 and ammonia was at 0.1.

thanks for the advice on feed and food soak. i do use frozen spirulina product daily but i will look intothe wardleys
would it be wise to start a antibiotic or just to travel the road

[Proteus]

sorry tank is a year old give or take a month

[naesco]

No you do not need antibiotics. You need to get the ammonia to zero.

[Jason McK]

Ammonia to zero and increase the nori or speralina based foods.

J

[Proteus]

Ammonia will be 0 ASAP my fuge was jousting my brothers fish as he was moving plus adding new rock. A little much on billows but fugue is m t now and water changes were done I will increase plant matter foods

Is there any veggies I can feed him. That may do good

[Proteus]

K well after taking all advice by increasing plant based foods and ensuring water quality the mark has become smaller buy Alot and seems to be scabbed over it is now about a pin head in size

Thanks to all the people who helped. I will keep a eye on him.

[RD]

Although tangs like non veggie food from time to time all tangs except the blue tang need algae to live and grow

Correct, but that does not equate to any tang requiring spirulina as the main part of its daily nutrient intake.

The optimum nutrient intake for tangs is far more complex than simply feeding them aquatic based plant matter in large amounts. Furthermore the premium pelleted diet known not to induce HLLE that was mentioned in the article on HLLE that was linked to above, was NLS, as was the pellet food used in the study by Tilghman, et-al that took place almost a decade ago.

[naesco]

What are the first 3 ingredients listed on the NLS package/

What is the cost?

[RD]

What does that have to do with anything? One should feed Wardley's because it's cheaper, or because Wardley's gives the illusion that it is high in spirulina content?



Previously it was mentioned that one should not feed garlic on a daily basis due to it's long term effect on liver. The reason for the negative effect on a fishes liver is due to the high level of fatty acids derived from (non aquatic) terrestrial based plant matter. Keeping that in mind, take a close look at Wardely Spirulina Discs, the food that you recommended.

Ingredients
Spirulina Algae Meal, Corn Gluten Feed, Corn Gluten Meal, Corn Distillers Dried Grains, Wheat Flour, Wheat Germ, Wheat Gluten, Wheat Middlings, Linseed Meal, Canola Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Soy Protein Concentrate, Pea Protein, Brewers Dried Yeast, Corn Flour, Rice Flour, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Barley, Calcium Carbonate, Soybean Oil, Spinach Powder, Dried Lecithin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Phosphate (Source of Vitamin C), Dicalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate, Cholecalciferol (Source of Vitamin D3), Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Ethoxyquin (a Preservative), Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Riboflavin, Cyanocobalamin (Source of Vitamin B12), Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite.


Once one gets past the spirulina meal, it looks more like a recipe for pancakes, than it does a fish food. The reality is there is FAR more terrestrial based fillers in that food, than there is spirulina. I don't need to be privy to the various inclusion rates of the raw ingredients to figure that much out.

[Proteus]

Well I am feeding large amounts of marine based fresh macro algea now and it took a day for the tang to rake it but now it's gone in a minute. On the ingredients of the wafers it has been recommended not
To feed corn to the trout in our lakes so why would I feed it to the fish in my aquarium.

The spot on the head to which this thread was made for has disappeared I attribute this to fresh plant matter and I will keep with occasional pellets from NLS. The tang has shown a
Major improvement and loves the fresh algae daily. So I think I found the trick to it and thank you to blue tang for the macro he gave me.

[Proteus]

Oh and also. Even though we put mass amounts of corn into processed foods doesn't mean it's healthy. I myself won't eat corn. Not knowingly anyway

[RD]

Titus - while I'm glad to hear that your tang is doing better, the removal of carbon from your system is most likely the reason for that (see previous link) not an increase in plant matter.

Either way, I'm glad to hear that it's doing better.

[fishytime]

RD..... just wondering if you have anything else to say on this forum besides promoting the food you distribute?

[RD]

I promote sound husbandry practices, fishytime. Something that I have been doing for a long time, long before forums like this even existed.

[Proteus]

Well no matter what the opinions are and weather others agree with them I took in all the info given and so far I am making progress. What works for one doesn't work for another but it's always worth a shot

[naesco]

I promote sound husbandry practices, fishytime. Something that I have been doing for a long time, long before forums like this even existed.

And I have been keeping tangs before forums like this existed and have been lucky enough to swim with them in the reefs

On the reefs I observed tangs spending their whole day eating the marine algae off the rock.
Based on my experience the best food for tangs is marine algae in the form of good quality unflavoured nori and, spirulina.
The best source and delivery method is Wardleys spirulina discs. Unlike other brands, spirulina is the first ingredient listed on the label. The best delivery method is the hard spirulina disks because they remain hard for quite a while.
I scatter them around the tank and they fall to the bottom so the tangs spend their day searching for them just like in the wild.

There may be other products but reefers should look for marine algae based foods and avoid foods that contain land based plant fillers.

[RD]

The reason that I posted in this discussion was to point out that the very food that you dismissed as being adequate for tangs, has now been used in two seperate studies that involved HLLE in herbivorous reef species with resounding success. The previous study was performed in 2001 by Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd, Chris Tilghman, and RuthEllen Klinger from the University of Florida.

In both studies (the Toledo Zoo & Tilghman et-al) the fish fed NLS pellets steadily gained weight, with no noticeable signs of disease, and no deaths. None of the fish fed NLS came down with HLLE. (unlike the other test subjects) It was used by the Curator of Fishes and Invertebrates at the Toledo Zoo as NLS had already been shown not to induce HLLE, hence from a dietary standpoint that could be removed from the equation in his carbon study.

There may be other products but reefers should look for marine algae based foods and avoid foods that contain land based plant fillers.

If you prefer to feed marine algae that's fine by me, but nutrient wise the food that you recommended is about the furthest thing away from what a fish in the wild would find when feeding on any type of marine algae, or the organisms found within that algae, AND it appears to contain massive amounts of land based plant fillers, which you just said should be avoided. Color me confused?

Sure it contains Spirulina Algae Meal, which is followed by .......... Corn Gluten Feed, Corn Gluten Meal, Corn Distillers Dried Grains, Wheat Flour, Wheat Germ, Wheat Gluten, Wheat Middlings, Linseed Meal, Canola Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Soy Protein Concentrate, Pea Protein, Brewers Dried Yeast, Corn Flour, Rice Flour, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soy Protein Isolate, Ground Barley, Calcium Carbonate, Soybean Oil, Spinach Powder, Dried Lecithin

4 forms of Corn, 4 forms of Wheat, and 4 forms of Soy.

Now add up all of the corn, wheat, soybean, linseed, canola, rice, and barley, and your main ingredient of "spirulina" is probably so dilluted that it most likely barely shows up on the nutrient radar. This is precisely what I meant when I previously stated that Wardley's gives the illusion that it is high in spirulina content. Even if one was being generous and allowed an inclusion rate of 25% spirulina algae meal, deducting 1% for the vitamin & mineral premix, that would still leave you with 74% land based plant fillers. They then add soybean oil for additional lipid content, which boosts the terrestrial based lipid content even higher, which we know can cause liver damage in marine specimens when fed in excess.

Still seem like the best source of marine algae to you?

[naesco]

Yes because it it much better than products that advertise as spirulina, or herbivore food and list spirulina down the list of ingredients after land based veggies.

Nori is 100 percent marine algae and when purchased at an asian store is cheap like borscht.

[RD]

Yes because it it much better than products that advertise as spirulina, or herbivore food and list spirulina down the list of ingredients after land based veggies.

It all boils down to the inclusion rate of each raw ingredient.

As an example, a manufacturer making a 1 ton batch of food could have 100 pounds of spirulina in that 2,000 lb batch of food, with the next 19 ingredients each weighing in at 98 pounds. That still leaves some room for additional oil, and the vitamin premix.

That formula could have "spirulina" listed as the main ingredient by dry weight, yet overall it would contain FAR more low cost terrestrial based fillers, fillers with overall poor digestibility, fillers that are known to contain anti-nutritional matter such as saponins, tannins, protease inhibitors, phytic acid, etc, and fillers that contain lipids that are known to cause long term liver damage when fed in excess to marine fish.

IMHO not only would that food be a poor choice for algae supplementation, but due to the fact that it would also be missing key amino acids, and long chain fatty acids, elements that are known to be essential to the growth and overall health of a marine fish, it most certainly would fail as any type of stand alone food for a herbivore, or otherwise.



Another manufacturer could make a 2,000 lb batch of food, and use just as much spirulina as the example above (perhaps even of far higher grade), as well as a substantial inclusion rate of algae meal, which is comprised of several sources of marine algae and micro-algae, and those ingredients could show up further down on the ingredient list simply because of the varying amounts of the other ingredients (that contain the correct balance of essential amino acids & fatty acids) in that formula. That, and have only 1 terrestrial based starch used as a binding agent, that does not contain known anti-nutritional matter such as saponins.

It is virtually impossible to compare ingredient percentages by simply reading a label, unless you are privy to the exact amounts used in each & every formula made by each & every manufacturer.

In some cases the listings on labels are nothing more than a numbers game, and some companies know how to play the game very well. And while I agree that there are foods marketed as "spirulina" or "algae" foods, that overall contain very little marine algae, by the same token one cannot conclude that a food is of high quality by simply looking at the main ingredient. It's always a good idea to look at the little picture (main ingredients) but if the BIG picture doesn't add up, then you most certainly need to consider that as well.


If it is your opinion that certain tangs require some form of algae supplementation beyond what one can find in some of the various pellet foods currently on the market, I have no problem with that, your fish, your call, but as previously stated nutrient wise the discs that you recommended are about the furthest thing away from what a fish in the wild would find when feeding on any type of marine algae, or the micro-organisms found within that algae.

HTH

[naesco]

I agree with most that you posted but unfortuneately we have to rely on the label.
That is why I choose the Wardley spirulina over say OSI which does not list spirulina as the first ingredient.
I use nori as the primarly food but like the Wardley discs as they sink to the sand and give the tangs something to do which they do naturally for a while, while I am at work.

The bottom line is all reefers should read the label. Make sure that the food is not made in China where there are no controls of what is actually in the package and where it comes from. In that regard US and Canadian product is best. Even Hikari, a Japanese fish food producer now has products which are labeled Made in China so you cannot rely on the brand anymore.
We get the choose the food we eat. Our fish and coral can only rely on the choice that we make for them. Choose wisely!

[fishytime]

Hey Wayne.....New Era has a sinking marine algae/ spirilunia log .....I would tell ya the first three ingredients on the label but the sample we were give at the shop doesnt have a label.....anyway.....my tangs love the stuff and all you do is break a chunk off the "log" and drop it in...

[fishytime]

Oops..... Double post

[RD]

According to the nutritional data supplied to me by the US distributor of New Era (Living Color) (via the manufacturer) the New Era grazing log contains Ascophylum, Ulva and Dulce algae, but here's how things play out on the actual ingredient list.

Grazing Log Diet

Composition
Low temp fish meal
Shrimp
Squid
Fibre
Starch
Vitamin pre mix
Mussel
Mineral pre mix
Blended fish oil
Blended algae


Which appears to be almost identical to the composition of their algae pellets.

Algae Pellets

Composition
Low temp fish meal
Shrimp
Squid
Fibre
Starch
Mussel
Vitamin pre mix
Mineral pre mix
Blended fish oil
Blended Algae



I don't think that I need to point out the obvious .......





naesco ........ if sinking discs with a high inclusion rate of aquatic plant matter is what you are after, have you considered these?
http://www.omegasea.net/veggie_rounds.html

Having never used them I can't vouch for anything beyond what you see on the label, but nutrient wise they certainly appear to be far better suited to tangs, than the Wardley discs. Main ingredients are Kelp & Spirulina, and they are not loaded with cheap terrestrial based plant matter. (no corn, no canola, no rice, no soy, no linseed, no barley, etc)


HTH