Zeovit/Brightwell Neozeo Help/concerns

[ReefOcean]

I am starting a new system, and want to have the system as healthy and colorful as possible. I have dabbled in dosing here and there, stopped, started again, stopped and so forth.

I skimmed the PDFs for both systems and they pretty much work the same. The respective Zeostuff is placed in a reactor, water flows through it, it removes some stuff, promotes nitrifying bacteria and what not. This also seems like the most dangerous part. Improper usage, applied with some additives can cause cyno blooms, tissue narcosis and bleaching all the way down to an epic fail system crash.

Then I read on and, there are a bunch of additives which to me, are similar to stuff that has been on the market for years. Amino sups, iodine, iron, bacteria sups etc. There is also color vitalizing additives.

So what part of the ULTRA nutrient reduction is promoting coral growth and color explosion? I mean, I am sure it helps, but running a phosban reactor with a carbon filter is pretty much the same thing, right? They had me, until I read about the specific additives that many people already used (but from different companies) and about the...supplements designed to vitalize colors..which to me, is the stuff that is actually promoting healthy corals.

Now my question is, is the nutrient reduction headache really that necessary, or can I just run the more beneficial additives through my system? The whole nutrient reduction section of each PDF seemed vary vague and was almost put there to make there system a "system" and not just a cocktail of additives you can get elsewhere.

Zeovit goes even as far as to say they suggest using their activated carbon, because there is a wide varying difference between theirs and other manufacturers which my cause an implied downturn in your progress. Like really?

The PDFs also took the opportunity to remove all responsibility from themselves by saying that bad stuff can happen, quite often, almost definitely, if you don't follow the directions with laser precise percussion. To me, when I am using an eye dropper, in a guesstimated volume of water this is not laser precise precision. When I could get tissue narcosis on a coral I could probably keep in nutrient laden phosphate filled water this doesn't seem to promising of a formula. It just seemed like they were spamming their instructions with warnings and accountability loopholes because they are aware that they are going to have many ****ed of customers.

Maybe these systems work because they are just forcing people to dose properly and keep nitrates down. I have my doubts that their ULTRA low nutrient removal system is worth it. There additives and sups have merit though. Nothing a skimmer and a phosban reactor really cant handle

I could be wrong, I might be missing the vital scientific relationship between zeo media and the sups you put in. Seems to me that you are putting your corals so close to demise, to maximize their color potential. Again, i could be wrong.

Any help with me understanding this system better would be appreciated. Any comments, personal experience etc would be good too.







Thanx :biggrin:

[Milad]

As far as the carbon goes. They are right that the difference between each carbon can make a huge impact on the water. I just started using ROX from kent and marineland carbon and man what a difference a quality carbon makes.

[lenzh]

These systems use the same basic steps:

1. Create a home for bacteria - zeo media and filter
2. Seed the home with the right bacteria - microbial additives (different brands)
3. Feed the bacteria with a carbon source - (I use vodka, but there are lots of others out there)
4. bacteria are happy and use the carbon source along with nutrients in the water column to fix nitrogen and phosporus that can either be skimmed out or used as a more complex food source for aquarium inhabitants.

Once you get the point where your nutrients are low, you will also have removed a lot of the complex amino acids and trace elements that corals take up. This is where the dosing of all those pricey additives comes in.

So...

If you think you can maintain a low nutrient environment without zeo (it is possible) then yes, go ahead and dose without that system, but be aware that most of those additives are designed to put back in a controlled way, what the zeo system is removing. Hope that makes some sense.

[lorenz0]

1 word.... prodibio

kz takes up to much time

[albert_dao]

Maybe I can clear this up (please note that my information will be biased towards the KZ products due to my profile):

1. Probiotic systems assume that you have stable water parameters in place. These values must reflect NSW levels, not the elevated levels that are typical of artificial reef systems. Of these, the KH is of particular concern. Do not elevate this value beyond 8.0.

You will also have to start paying attention to the potassium levels since the Redfield ratio starts to matter once the bacterial colonies start to manifest.

2. The warnings assume users have done zero research into the topic and/or are not following directions. Granted, any product, if misused, can cause catastrophe (heaters, uncovered MH bulbs anyone?).

There is also wiggle room regarding the dynamic nature of every reef system; e.g. you can set up two identical systems (water volume, rock volume, livestock, equipment, etc) and come back in six months with wild variance on either.

Either way, it's expected. Ever read the warning labels on a paper shredder? You should see the documents on the commercial unit I have in my office.

3. Many of the additives can be used within or without their probiotic components. However, many of the supplements only produce optimized results within the context of ULNS. How you get there is of little concern.

4. Nothing a skimmer and a phosban reactor really cant handle

Not quite. Skimmers and chemical medias are passive filtration methods that rely on organics and nutrients being delivered to them. You can't, for example, break down a nutrient deposit within your rockwork or sandbed by using more GFO. It will continue to remain sequestered within the substrate until agitated into the water column.

Probiotic systems route this by developing a microbial community that can integrate into the biological stratum of the entire system, depleting nutrient batteries and making them unavailable to more obtrusive lifeforms. Eventually, these biomass's and their mineralized nutrient loads become exported by mechanical means (skimmer, water changes) as they enter the water column. This is possible since a large part of the manifold strains are bacterialplanktonic.

Anyway, if you want a scientific insight into this topic (with empirical data and research documents), go here:

http://zeovit.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=76

Gary (mesocosm) has assembled a veritable library of information relevant to this topic and has paraphrased much of the research jargon into laymen terms (or close enough).

HTH

[lenzh]

Maybe I can clear this up (please note that my information will be biased towards the KZ products due to my profile):

1. Probiotic systems assume that you have stable water parameters in place. These values must reflect NSW levels, not the elevated levels that are typical of artificial reef systems. Of these, the KH is of particular concern. Do not elevate this value beyond 8.0.

You will also have to start paying attention to the potassium levels since the Redfield ratio starts to matter once the bacterial colonies start to manifest.

2. The warnings assume users have done zero research into the topic and/or are not following directions. Granted, any product, if misused, can cause catastrophe (heaters, uncovered MH bulbs anyone?).

There is also wiggle room regarding the dynamic nature of every reef system; e.g. you can set up two identical systems (water volume, rock volume, livestock, equipment, etc) and come back in six months with wild variance on either.

Either way, it's expected. Ever read the warning labels on a paper shredder? You should see the documents on the commercial unit I have in my office.

3. Many of the additives can be used within or without their probiotic components. However, many of the supplements only produce optimized results within the context of ULNS. How you get there is of little concern.

4.

Not quite. Skimmers and chemical medias are passive filtration methods that rely on organics and nutrients being delivered to them. You can't, for example, break down a nutrient deposit within your rockwork or sandbed by using more GFO. It will continue to remain sequestered within the substrate until agitated into the water column.

Probiotic systems route this by developing a microbial community that can integrate into the biological stratum of the entire system, depleting nutrient batteries and making them unavailable to more obtrusive lifeforms. Eventually, these biomass's and their mineralized nutrient loads become exported by mechanical means (skimmer, water changes) as they enter the water column. This is possible since a large part of the manifold strains are bacterialplanktonic.

Anyway, if you want a scientific insight into this topic (with empirical data and research documents), go here:

http://zeovit.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=76

Gary (mesocosm) has assembled a veritable library of information relevant to this topic and has paraphrased much of the research jargon into laymen terms (or close enough).

HTH

What he said...

[albert_dao]

1 word.... prodibio

kz takes up to much time

I concur; it bereaves me of two minutes of my life each day :P

In all seriousness, it is time consuming, but it has more to do with having to be exceptionally anal about watching your parameters and maintenance more than anything. The dosing is gravy. I enjoy it as much as I enjoy feeding my tank. I dose, the corals get big. I feed, the fish swarm at the front of the glass. Both activities make me happy.

If you're looking for a set and forget system, I'd look at all the Bio-pellets out there. They require exactly zero dosing once stabilized.

[ReefOcean]

As far as the carbon goes. They are right that the difference between each carbon can make a huge impact on the water. I just started using ROX from kent and marineland carbon and man what a difference a quality carbon makes.

Okay. Is the only reason I would run carbon is to clean up water for better light penetration? Is there worries about other brands of carbon having materials in them that might react negatively to other suppliments within the zeovit system?

[lorenz0]

the reason i said prodibio is because of the dosing regiment. Its hard to miss and is a very simple system compared to the zeovit

I tried the zeovit and it did not suit my life style. From shaking the rocks at the right time to making sure I made my schedule for dosing. My final conclusion on the system was that you need to make sure your home to shake your rocks when your pump is on. also in the mornings i would forget to dose start. To say the least i struggled. The dosing took almost no time, I am just a zombie in the morning.

I like the prodibio system because I can change my water on sunday and than every second wednesday I dose. I'm on my 4th week with no issues and I am already seeing great results. no more counting drops or measuring mL, just 1 vile per a product once every 2 weeks. can't complain about that anymore

[ReefOcean]

Ah Okay, So what I understand, the consensus is that the probiotic step is designed to remove nutrients from all over the tank, when I was just considering what was located in the water (That can be caught by skimming and filters). I can use other methods if I want, as long as the same effect is being achieved.


If you think you can maintain a low nutrient environment without zeo (it is possible) then yes, go ahead and dose without that system, but be aware that most of those additives are designed to put back in a controlled way, what the zeo system is removing. Hope that makes some sense.

Okay, this was something I was worried about. So if I choose to go ahead with either method, I should definately fully reasearch the system requirments for each additive and not just read "hey, this stuff makes blue colors pop" and dump it in willy nilly.

If you're looking for a set and forget system, I'd look at all the Bio-pellets out there. They require exactly zero dosing once stabilized.

I was looking at these too. Not much info though compared to Zeovit. From the few "reviews" I read, some people experienced their corals becoming worse, with intense cyno blooms. Others werent very impressed with the changes and some were very happy. I just couldnt really find a comprehensive explanation or detailed success story to fully sway me into the biopellets.

Anyway, if you want a scientific insight into this topic (with empirical data and research documents), go here:

http://zeovit.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=76

Gary (mesocosm) has assembled a veritable library of information relevant to this topic and has paraphrased much of the research jargon into laymen terms (or close enough)

Will read, thanks a for the info.

[ReefOcean]

the reason i said prodibio is because of the dosing regiment. Its hard to miss and is a very simple system compared to the zeovit

I tried the zeovit and it did not suit my life style. From shaking the rocks at the right time to making sure I made my schedule for dosing. My final conclusion on the system was that you need to make sure your home to shake your rocks when your pump is on. also in the mornings i would forget to dose start. To say the least i struggled. The dosing took almost no time, I am just a zombie in the morning.

I like the prodibio system because I can change my water on sunday and than every second wednesday I dose. I'm on my 4th week with no issues and I am already seeing great results. no more counting drops or measuring mL, just 1 vile per a product once every 2 weeks. can't complain about that anymore


hehe, that sounds a lot like me. I am serious about commiting to a dosing regiment, but who knows how long I can keep it up for.


So this is strictly a dosing regiment? No magic rocks/zeo pellets required? i just tried to google it, read a little from reefcentral but I am at work hehe. I will read more about it tonight

[naesco]

If you are starting up a new system, don't add anything at all other than salt unless you have too.

[ReefOcean]

Sorry, i didnt mention. Starting a new setup but transfering everything from my old setup to the new

[albert_dao]

Sorry, i didnt mention. Starting a new setup but transfering everything from my old setup to the new

Probiotic systems are harder to integrate into older systems than they are into new.

What's your experience level like?

[ReefOcean]

Probiotic systems are harder to integrate into older systems than they are into new.

What's your experience level like?

The tank wont be completely established. For starters, The equipment will be new. The skimmer, the pumps etc. I am currently running barebottem atm. The new system will have a sand bed. The only thing I was considering transfering over to the new tank will be LR and water.

I would prefer not to cook my rock, I may give select spots a good brushing. i may add a few new pieces of rock, and cycle again. I actually have about 50 pounds of dried rock/skeletons I smuggled back in a duffle from Oahu I might use for base.


As for experience, I have been doing SW for about 7, coral for about 5 and SPS for about 2 years.

[albert_dao]

Ah, lots of experience.

In that case, you should have no difficulty with a probiotic method as long as you pay attention to all your variables. You may also want to establish the bacteria in your new system for a couple weeks prior to adding any livestock.

[ReefOcean]

After some careful consideration, reading various messageboards and re-reading the instuction manulas of each system, I have opted to go with the Brightwell system for various reasons

1) I found the Brightwell instructions easier to follow and with better explanations
2) I have experience using various Brightwell products on and off and like them quite a bit (I swear by their calcium sup)
3) The Brightwell products a much cheaper
4)The dosing instuctions seem easier
5) If I am not satisified with the results or Neozeo, I will still have a low nutrient system and can slowly integrate in Zeovit or try something else that's new.


thanks for the help! :smile:

[lenzh]

An informed choice is the best. Good Luck.

I have had good results mixing and matching products from different companies, (KZ, Fauna Marin, and others) the main thing is that you understand what each product is supposed to do, how it's supposed to work, and what to look for and test for when trying to figure out the appropriate dose for your system.

[albert_dao]

After some careful consideration, reading various messageboards and re-reading the instuction manulas of each system, I have opted to go with the Brightwell system for various reasons

1) I found the Brightwell instructions easier to follow and with better explanations
2) I have experience using various Brightwell products on and off and like them quite a bit (I swear by their calcium sup)
3) The Brightwell products a much cheaper
4)The dosing instuctions seem easier
5) If I am not satisified with the results or Neozeo, I will still have a low nutrient system and can slowly integrate in Zeovit or try something else that's new.


thanks for the help! :smile:

Ah, no prob. Best of luck. Probiotics - done right and you'll never go back to GFO again.

[ReefOcean]

I will work extra hard on the doing it right part. hehe, thanks again :biggrin: