Possible ich??

[kuatto]

I noticed what looks like ich on my rabbit fish(small white dots on fins and side).he is not scratching or breathing hard,active and eats well.So far he is the only one with the spots(might have just started)so i want to stop this in its tracks,but i dont have a qt tank set up.The tank has a few softies and some snails,so treating the tank with ick meds are out of the question(or is it?)I've been reading about others using garlic if started early with good results,what do you all think?
I'm going to do a partial water change and test everything(if this is ich,its got me puzzled on how it started)Also thought of a fresh water dip,but dont want to stress him out netting him,so i thought about the garlic.

Jim

[EmilyB]

Definitely try the garlic and source out his stressors.

[BCOrchidGuy]

Try the garlic for sure, put a couple drops on some flake food or some brine shrimp etc.. raise the temp a few degrees if you can, got a cleaner shrimp/wrasse??

Doug

[Jim Barry]

My Carribean Tang had Ich and I used a product called Cryptopur.

http://www.sera.de/English/autoframe.htm?url=http://sera.de/english/News/news.htm

It cleared up the Ich problem in 6 days without hurting any of the corals. The only casualty was my cleaner shrimp.

It turned the water a disgusting copper color and the zoos all closed up for the week but are now responding fine.

This combined with garlic may do the trick.

Good luck.

Jim

[kuatto]

I crushed some garlic(stinks like hell)and mixed some frozen blend seafood(been soaking for about 20 min)will feed that tonight,plus i mixed up enough for a couple of days.
A cleaner wrasse or shrimp would last about 2 seconds in that tank with my lion(he just spotted the feeding dish on top of the tank,he doesn't miss a thing when it comes to food :mrgreen: )

[BCOrchidGuy]

lol yeah I guess a small cleaner/shrimp would be a bad investment... adds new meaning to the term, rent a wrasse..

Doug

[kuatto]

He's my baby(growing quick,got to get moving on much bigger tank).Of all the fish I own,my lion is by far my favorite.My wife says he eats better than us,with all the shrimp,squid,clams.

[BCOrchidGuy]

I've always been fascinated with Lions but I want inverts, and small fish. I love gobies, small wrasses, etc..

Doug

[kuatto]

Good excuse to get more tanks :biggrin:
After having over 25 various size tanks and numeruos rubbermaids on a rack system for reptiles,a couple is no problem(I think about how many tanks 33-180gal I gave away when I got out of the reptiles :redface: )Who knew I'd be into salt water later on?

Jim

[EmilyB]

Try to get a as much garlic into the fish as possible. I assume he eats nori? If so, rub a clove of fresh garlic on it before serving. :biggrin:

[apepper]

There is a really good series of articles in Advanced Aquarist about itch. It describes the life cycle, transmission and treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans "Saltwater itch". There are 3 articles so far of the 5 part series and it is very good an describes the most effective treatments. They are very well written articles that you might find helpful.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

Quote from the introduction:

"Despite all of the information currently available about this parasite, it still remains to be one of the most serious threats to the health and well-being of captive teleost marine fish. This is due in part to misinformation about the life cycle, mode of transmission and treatment options that are perpetuated largely (albeit unintentionally) by misinformed hobbyists and retailers. This five part series will detail these and other aspects pertaining to Cryptocaryon irritans in an attempt to dispel such misinformation."

[Beverly]

Jim,

Ich has to be introduced into a system for fish to get it. Ich is an extremely opportunistic parasite and does not hang around a tank waiting for a fish to have a lowered immune system to become active. If there is ich in a tank, you can be sure it will attach to your fish and begin its life cycle. As long as there are fish in a tank that are not being successfully treated for ich, the ich will continue their life cycle indefinitely until either the fish are dead or the fish have been removed for 6 weeks during which time the ich have no hosts and will die.

Any new additions to any of your tanks lately? Using tools on an infected tank with other tanks can spread ich. Check all tanks for ich, especially if there have been new additions, including macroalgae, corals, sand from someone's tank - just anything new at all over the past month or so.

I have ich in my 72 gal because I did not quarantine one fish that had one spot of ich on its dorsal fin (did not notice this until it was already in the reef). Am currently cycling a 20g hospital tank to treat the fish with hyposalinity:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Have used Kick Ick with no success. Am now soaking the PE mysis normally fed to the fish in the 72g with copious amounts of Garlic Xtreme and Zoe, though I have always used one drop of GE and lots of Zoe all the time I have had these fish. I don't expect the garlic to solve my ich problem, but it is something to try while the hospital tank finishes cycling. I may get lucky with the GE, which would save a lot of trouble so I wouldn't have to break down my reef to remove the affected fish.

As of this moment, my fish are not infected as far as I can see, which means the little monsters are in the sandbed in their cysts waiting to hatch and infect my fish to an even greater extent than they have previously.

Cycle, hospital tank, CYCLE!!!!

[mnoll406]

Hey Jim,
I have had ich in a couple of my tanks. Certain fish are ich magnets. I worked in a shop that had a black tang, that would get ich at the slightest bit of stress. In my experience, reduce the stress, and the ich goes away. I have never lost a fish to ich, and I have never treated for ich. Do a few water changes, and make sure your parameters are wher they should be. Try the garlic, but stay away from the other medications. No knowing what longterm effects it will have on your tank.

Mike

[kuatto]

If I use water from 3 tanks(got to do water change anyway)to fill the quaratine tank,do I still have to cycle it(bare bottom,no rock,just a filter)and is six weeks going to be long enough for both the qt tank and the reef tank with no fish? :confused:
I've been feeding the garlic soaked food as much as they(actually all the tanks)will eat several times a day.I've read that lions are copper sensitive,so what else can i use in th qt tank?Come hell or high water,I will rid my fish of this pest!!(I would never foregive myself if I lose them over something that I might have caused :sad: )

Jim

[EmilyB]

Kuatto, check your alkalinity also. I've had alk problems cause ick-like symptoms, or ick perhaps. It disappeared after correction tho.

If the ick is that bad, I'd go with hyposalinity, however lions are also sensitive to that I believe. :neutral:

[Beverly]

Jim,

Am currently cycling a hospital tank. It's a bare 20g with a PVC elbow and T for the fish to hide in if they need to. The H-tank has two small powerheads (for extra ciculation and aeration) and an Aquaclear 200 and an Aquaclear mini, with media chambers containing two foams each and NO carbon or anything else. The foams are where all the nitrifying bacteria are growing to handle the bioload of the animals intended for the tank.

If you already have cycled foams in a filtration system from one of your tanks, you can use them. Otherwise you are going to have set up the tank from scratch and cycle the thing. Could take six weeks or longer to cycle.

I started the cycle in my 20g with a tablespoon of dry food, which is a lot imo, but I need to treat three fairly large fish in that little 20g. Tank has been set up at least three weeks. About a week ago, I got a 0 ppm reading of ammonia and have about 5 ppm nitrite. I now feed the tank daily with about 1/2 teaspoon of dry fish food to sustain the ammonia-eating bacteria as well as to continue building up the nitrite-eating bacteria.

Don't know what nitrite levels are today, but am going to clean the algae off the glass, do a 5 gal water change, then clean the filtration systems and foams in the outgoing changewater. I know the foams are very cruddy from all the food I've been feeding and from algae I cleaned off the glass last week. I think I'm getting close to the end of the cycle, so I want to test the tank after a through cleaning to see how ammonia and nitrite fare. Afterward, I will continue to feed the tank daily and test for ammonia and nitrite every other day. When I am positive the tank has cycled, I'll clean the foams again, then in go the fish.

When the tank is fully cycled and ready for the fish, I will remove all the water from the 20g. Right away, I am going to move 10g from the 72g ick tank to the H-tank so the fish are not shocked by the change in water params. I will replace that 10g with NSW, then add 10g more from the 72g to top up the 20g, then top the 72g with another 10g of NSW.

When beginning to cycle your tank, imo, you can use water from any tank you have. But the article I posted suggested doing a water change and using water from the ick tank when adding the fish so are not shocked so much by the move.

HTH.

[kuatto]

I managed to fill a 29gal I have with tank water from the tanks i have set up(had to do water changes anyway).I'm going to use the big canister filter from the ick tank and replace it with a smaller filter(still enough for the ick tank,since the bio load should be greatly reduced).
Will the corals in the infected tank be ok(just softies)with just reg water changes and not being fed by myself?or should i continue to feed(but lesser amnts because of no fish)

[Beverly]

Jim,

Corals in the ick tank will be just fine with regular water changes. Continue to feed the tank to maintain bacteria, and, yes, imo, feed slightly less.

If you are going to do the hyposalinity treatment, you ABSOLUTELY need a refractometer to make sure salinity stays at the recommended level. I got mine from J&L, but AI might have them too. Follow the instructions from the hypo link to the letter. You need to keep an eye on salinity (twice daily, or more often, imo), as well as pH and alk with low salinity. Also watch for ammonia spikes as you lower salinity and afterwards. Do weekly water changes and clean your media weekly, or more often if you're getting ammonia. RC is a good place to find out about doing hyposalinity with your lion if you have any questions or doubts.

Have just done the major clean on the H-tank. What a lot of crud stuck in the powerheads and AC filtration systems :eek: Broke down all PHs and ACs and cleaned them in outgoing changewater. Managed to break the heater while I was at it :frown: At least the tank looked pretty clean until I added another bunch of dried food. Next time I add dry stuff, I'm going to soak it in SW before putting it in the tank so it doesn't get sucked up into the ACs.

Geez, I HATE ick and having to do all this cr*p to get rid of it :evil:

I've been adding about 10 drops of Garlic Xtreme to the PE mysis my ick fish have been eating for the past three days. I'm still hoping the garlic will be all I need to use, but am not counting on it. Will know within a week or two if it works, but will not be satisfied that garlic works until the fish are ick-free for a full six weeks.

[kuatto]

I agree,ick is evil :evil:
You might have broke your heater,but I did one better,I broke my hydrometer :cry:.I'm not going to try the hyposalinaty(I want to treat with as little stress as possible)The fish are eating so much garlic,they're starting to smell real good :mrgreen: .I think I figured out what caused the problem,I had unplugged everything during a tank cleaning a week or 2 ago and foregot to plug one of the plugs back in(yup the heater :redface: )by the time I noticed,the tank dropped in temp.

Jim

[Beverly]

Jim,

I don't think a temp drop would bring on ick if the ick was not already in the tank. Ick has a specific life cycle. When they hatch and there are no fish to attach to, they die and there is no more ick. Something must have brought it into your tank over the last month or so and you may not have noticed the first or second cycles of adult ick on your fish.

I'm wondering if you might have picked it up from something that went into your tank during our frag and MA swap before Christmas. I had ick at that time, but I was VERY SURE I never took ANYTHING from my ick tank to pass along to anyone else. OMG, that would have been the worst thing I could have done!!!!, but was careful not to do that. My other two tanks are ick-free because I have been scrupulously keeping all cleaning/feeding tools, pails, etc. that I use for the ick tank away from my other two. Another PITA :mad:

To make sure you have no more ick in your ick tank, keep your fish in the H-tank for six weeks, leaving the ick tank without hosts for that period of time. Then your ick problems should be gone as long as you've successfully treated the ick in the H-tank.

BTW, how did you break you hydrometer? I broke mine awhile back, but was able to put it back together pretty easily. The H-thing dislodged and the swing thing came out. Yes, those are the technical terms, btw :biggrin: I just put it back together, no harm done.

[kuatto]

No worries about you giving me ick,none of the other tanks that I put the MA in are showing any signs of ick(nock on wood :biggrin: )As for the hydrometer,its one of the glass one that doubles as a thermometer.

Oh crap! I just realised I use the same cleaning magnet in all the tanks :cry: (well,I guess time will tell)

Jim

[Gujustud]

I just got my first damsel a few days ago. I believe he had the ick as well. He had some white spots on him. I'm not sure if it was the shock of going into my tank. Anyhoo, I soaked some of the fish food I have in some fresh garlic, and put some in the tank. He doesn't really eat a lot, at least when i'm not there, just runs around the food and stuff. Only once I say him take some food in. However today I noticed that the white spots are declining which is good. I've only had the guy since Friday.

[Beverly]

One dose of garlic is not going to cure your new damsel of ick. That the spots have started to go away is the sign they have gone into the reproductive stage and will appear again in several days.

Here are links about ick posted at the beginning of this thread:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm


HTH.

[Gujustud]

One dose of garlic is not going to cure your new damsel of ick. That the spots have started to go away is the sign they have gone into the reproductive stage and will appear again in several days.

Here are links about ick posted at the beginning of this thread:


Thanks for the info. I did mix up a bit of the food and some garlic in a small container, so I will continue to feed him over the next week at least. I also added a airstone to my tank temporary.

I read those articles, very informative. The only thing is that he still doesn't seem to be eating the food when I put it in the tank. Maybe he eats it later, but not when I'm there. Is that normal?

[BCOrchidGuy]

The garlic gets into the slime coat of the fish and the parasite doesn't like to attatch to a fish that .. has BO... keep feeding garlic..

Doug

[Beverly]

The only thing is that he still doesn't seem to be eating the food when I put it in the tank. Maybe he eats it later, but not when I'm there. Is that normal?

If the fish isn't eating the food you are feeding it, I suspect it was eating something else at the lfs. Find out what it was eating there and feed it the same food, without the garlic at first. Once it gets used to eating the food it was eating at the lfs, add a small amount of garlic to the food. Then increase the amount so that the garlic is overwhelming.

I still don't have faith in the garlic method, but since my H-tank has not yet cycled, I'm giving it an honest, thorough try. I feed my ick fish, which are two 2" fairy wrasses and a 3" angelfish, PE mysis. For one tablespoon of food, I use 10-12 drops of Garlic Xtreme and a about half teaspoon of Kent Zoe. Half the food is consumed in the morning feeding, the other half is refridgerated until the afternoon feeding. The pm feeding mysis must be REALLY saturated with garlic by then :eek:

I will continue feeding this garlic/mysis concoction for the next six weeks, or until the H-tank has cycled. If the ick does not affect the fish for six weeks in the display tank, I will deem the garlic method a success..... but not until then.

[Gujustud]

If the fish isn't eating the food you are feeding it, I suspect it was eating something else at the lfs. Find out what it was eating there and feed it the same food, without the garlic at first. Once it gets used to eating the food it was eating at the lfs, add a small amount of garlic to the food. Then increase the amount so that the garlic is overwhelming.


I bought the same food the lfs was feeding him. He wasn't eating it at all, so yesterday after I added some garlic, he had a few bites of it. This morning I gave him more, but he didn't eat. About 1 hour ago, I gave him some of the food (without garlic) and he gulped it all up in a few seconds. Maybe he's just getting use to the tank?

[Beverly]

I bought the same food the lfs was feeding him. He wasn't eating it at all, so yesterday after I added some garlic, he had a few bites of it. This morning I gave him more, but he didn't eat. About 1 hour ago, I gave him some of the food (without garlic) and he gulped it all up in a few seconds. Maybe he's just getting use to the tank?

The fish would be hungry whether it is getting used to the tank or not, proved by the fish gulping down the non-garlic food. JMO, but I would add just a bit of garlic to the fish's food for the next few days until it gets used to the garlic smell. I'm sure the fish will come around to eating once it knows that garlic is part of his new food. Again, jmo.