LED experience for under $2

[naesco]

There as been some hot discussion lately about LED lighting as opposed to the dated MH technology and it ocurred to me that many reefers may not have seen their coral under LED lighting so.... Go to the 7-11 and buy one of those lighters that have a BLUE LED light on the bottom of the lighter that you can turn on and off.
Turn all the lights off in the tank, the room and the ajacent areas and close the blinds to stop outside ambient lighting hitting the tank. Than shine the blue LED light on your coral.
The fluorescence you see is almost shocking. Picture in your minds eye your whole tank lit with LED.

[Aquattro]

To get a real representation of the coral color, I take frags outside. If I wanted to artificially color them, I could tint the glass blue and purple :)

Seriously, MH has another 10 years on my tank before it's outdated. I have yet to see a tank with LED that I like, and I sure wouldn't spend money on doing that to my tank. No, I haven't seen a lot of tanks lit by LED, but of those I've seen, I haven't liked any yet.

[naesco]

To get a real representation of the coral color, I take frags outside. If I wanted to artificially color them, I could tint the glass blue and purple :)

Seriously, MH has another 10 years on my tank before it's outdated. I have yet to see a tank with LED that I like, and I sure wouldn't spend money on doing that to my tank. No, I haven't seen a lot of tanks lit by LED, but of those I've seen, I haven't liked any yet.

Actually it is not artificial colour. Many SPS and LPS have enzymes in their mass. When hit with lighting like the blue light from LED or to a lesser degree the blue light from actinic light, the enzymes react causing the coral to fluoresce; a natural response not an artificial one.

In other words humans looking a brown sps frag see brown under MH. That same sps frag will look stunningly green or pink or purple depending on the natural enzymes in the coral of the coral. I think that is what the fish and inverts see.

So Aquattro what would you rather see? Brown or bright red, green, yellow or pink

[reefwars]

ill say this i got to see a friends tank the other day with his diy led fixture and it was dimmable and very nice indeed infact alot nicer then the vertex alummina(?) that ive also seen in person on a few tanks:)


i do like my halides but they run hot and are expensive to maintain so im thinking diy led fixture in my canopy either way both are effective and both are expensive lol:)

[Aquattro]

So Aquattro what would you rather see? Brown or bright red, green, yellow or pink

I'd rather see a realistic color, as I might find the same coral in the wild. Wild corals don't have enzymes activated by LEDs on a reef :)
If this is your thing, that's great, it's just not what I want on my tank. Maybe as the technology matures, and the effects I don't like are addressed (and the Porsche price tag drops), I might look at them. Years from now. Maybe.

[intarsiabox]

I'd rather see a realistic color, as I might find the same coral in the wild. Wild corals don't have enzymes activated by LEDs on a reef :)
If this is your thing, that's great, it's just not what I want on my tank. Maybe as the technology matures, and the effects I don't like are addressed (and the Porsche price tag drops), I might look at them. Years from now. Maybe.
Maybe you could start dealing in black market marine goods to pay for that porsche?:lol:
I'm still on the fence with LED's right now but I'm hoping as they become more popular they will drive the prices of top end T5 and MH fixtures down as well as bulb prices.

[fishytime]

I was gonna say that I could put a string of X-mas lights on my tank and make the color look good:wink:

[reefwars]

I was gonna say that I could put a string of X-mas lights on my tank and make the color look good:wink:

you may be onto something there doug possibly a new breakthrough in the lighting realm;) i still like the idea of tinting the glass blue hehe:) maybe even one of those urinal thingys that make your water blue in your toilet lol that could possibly work too eh??:):):)

[freezetyle]

To get a real representation of the coral color, I take frags outside. If I wanted to artificially color them, I could tint the glass blue and purple :)

Seriously, MH has another 10 years on my tank before it's outdated. I have yet to see a tank with LED that I like, and I sure wouldn't spend money on doing that to my tank. No, I haven't seen a lot of tanks lit by LED, but of those I've seen, I haven't liked any yet.

Brad, are you free tomorrow (tuesday) night or the night after? Come over and take a gander at the new tank. i think i might be able to sway you on the Led.

I think the main thing causes your bias to MH is based on the fact that many people who add led tend to sway away from the 10-14k spectrum. So you get the over saturated florescence which can look cool for party tricks but in my mind is a little bit much

[Aquattro]

Jon, I might be, but it's not the color, it's the flicker of blue vs white shadow. If the light was only 1 color, that might remove that issue.
And, I'd really need to see a full blown SPS tank after 3 years to ensure a constant output. Time will tell, but I love MH, and since I have MH, it works out well :)

[toytech]

I agree that the blue/white flicker is kinda annoying , but being able to fine tune your color temp by dimming the different color LEDs is a huge plus . Next tank i light will be with a diy led setup , probably from rapid led . Now i just have to hurry up and get a new tank .

[sphelps]

MHs are certainly not outdated, still by far my personal favourite for color and effect. LEDs can't offer the effect from the single source which creates stunning rays and shadows for contrast. By far the most natural lighting and the best lighting for photography is MH. Also for actinic effect fluorescents take that prize not LEDs.

[StirCrazy]

I think the main thing causes your bias to MH is based on the fact that many people who add led tend to sway away from the 10-14k spectrum.

Bingo. I for one do not like 14K or higher, but rather a crisp 12K. so when I build my LEDs I will be build them so thats what I get when both colors are on full.

as for Naesco's statments.. sorry I have to go with Brad on this one.. when you see a coral in the wild during the day you are seeing the true color. I used to do the same as Brad with my corals.. take them outside for a true color. when in the tank especialy when lit with RB leds you are getting a floressence line you stated and yes the corals has thoes emzines but you do not see that in the wild, except for some cases of deep water corals where there is no real visable light.

yes there is floressence in shallow reef but to a very small degree, for a small period at sunrise and sunset there will be more but no where near the amount you see in artificialy lit reefs.

Steve

[RuGlu6]

Seriously, MH has another 10 years on my tank before it's outdated. I have yet to see a tank with LED that I like, and I sure wouldn't spend money on doing that to my tank. No, I haven't seen a lot of tanks lit by LED, but of those I've seen, I haven't liked any yet.

+1
I have seen tanks under LED and none are to my liking. When i see a few years old tank under LED that producing polyp extention growth and vitality like MH does may be then i will consider the LED.
If and only when the price tag is considerably lower then it is now.
There is no way i will spend 2K on LED lighting when i can get MH for under $300 (http://www.aquatraders.com/48-716W-Metal-Halide-T5-LED-Combo-p/54267.htm)

[Skimmerking]

Jon, I might be, but it's not the color, it's the flicker of blue vs white shadow. If the light was only 1 color, that might remove that issue.
And, I'd really need to see a full blown SPS tank after 3 years to ensure a constant output. Time will tell, but I love MH, and since I have MH, it works out well :)
yup I'm with you Brad MH hasn't failed after how many years

[StirCrazy]

+1
When i see a few years old tank under LED that producing polyp extention growth and vitality like MH does may be then i will consider the LED.


people keep saying this but there are several tanks out there that are aproaching 4 years running and yes the growth, PE and color are just as good (and even better on a couple I have seen) than MH, on some systems that people have made.

don't get me wrong I am very Pro MH, but I do see the other side of LED also. very expensive like you said to buy a premade system thats good, but about the same as MH if you can build your own. it cost me 600 just to build my 2x250 MH, and I can build a LED that will cover the same size tank for about 700.

Steve

[Skimmerking]

really 500 on how big of a tank Steve I should get you to build me one for mine

[StirCrazy]

really 500 on how big of a tank Steve I should get you to build me one for mine

smaller than yours :mrgreen:

that would be 700 like I posted not 500, that would have been on my 90 (3x2x2) and I would end up with a high PAR level, spend another 150 and the PAR would be through the roof.

sorry not building now due to my job and no time. Have to finnish training at work and get my shop finnished then we'll see.

Steve

[Kmarrs]

I just started my very first reef tank i dont have any corals but i absolutly love my MH fixture. Landed coming from the states i bought it complete with bulbs for $400 can't beat it for 656w. I think LED'S still have alot to prove.

[albert_dao]

I think LED'S still have alot to prove.

Big thread would like to have a word with you:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991180&page=4

:D

[Milad]

You guys realize LEDs are cheaper than MH in about 2-3 years time if you do a DIY.

Think of the bulb cost, electricity cost of the MH, electricity cost of the cooler to cool the tank because its getting hot.


Aquattro you just need to see the right LEDs, not your standard LFS issued marineland strips. I konw there are a few guys in Victoria that have picked up LEDs from me, you should hit them up for a tour of a real LED fixture with quality LEDs.

[reefwars]

You guys realize LEDs are cheaper than MH in about 2-3 years time if you do a DIY.

Think of the bulb cost, electricity cost of the MH, electricity cost of the cooler to cool the tank because its getting hot.


Aquattro you just need to see the right LEDs, not your standard LFS issued marineland strips. I konw there are a few guys in Victoria that have picked up LEDs from me, you should hit them up for a tour of a real LED fixture with quality LEDs.


thats if your leds even last 3 yrs and what if you upgrade then you need more leds while a mh can be used on a variety of tanks.if not installed correctly leds burn out if you want to up grade its a pita and its trial and error on colour like t5's are if you order too many blues your screwed if you order too many whites your screwed.mh have been proven year after year and they work we know this leds are still in the experimental stage and sure they have their benefits but so do mh.im thinking about trying out some leds from you milad so dont think im bashing but at this time they def arent supperior.its kinda like acryliuc vs glass both have pros and cons:)

[marie]

I will stick with my MH's. I actually use them to heat my tanks because I don't use heaters and I am one of the few people that actually prefer the 10K colour and use XM 10Ks with no actinic supplements :lol:

[intarsiabox]

Or just wait 3 years and really good quality manufactured LED fixtures will probably be cheaper than DIY is now and you still would break even.

[Milad]

thats if your leds even last 3 yrs and what if you upgrade then you need more leds while a mh can be used on a variety of tanks.if not installed correctly leds burn out if you want to up grade its a pita and its trial and error on colour like t5's are if you order too many blues your screwed if you order too many whites your screwed.mh have been proven year after year and they work we know this leds are still in the experimental stage and sure they have their benefits but so do mh.im thinking about trying out some leds from you milad so dont think im bashing but at this time they def arent supperior.its kinda like acryliuc vs glass both have pros and cons:)

Some good points.

They can burn out on you if you over power them or get less quality ones or mount them incorrectly. I guess I just have faith people use them correctly.

As far as too many of a certain color, thats not big deal as long as you get dimmable drivers. If you dont, then you are screwed. Most people get close the 14K look then adjust their light using the dimmable drivers to the color they want.

So lets say you are like my girlfriend and you go through mood swings... Ok I dont have a GF but lets pretend I do.... And one day you like 14K look and 3 months from now you decide you want more of a 20K look. As long as you have dimmable drivers, its a flick of a switch to switch between the looks. Cant do that with MHs.


I currently work for a company that deals with maintenance and building of buildings. We did a pilot project on street lighting around one of our campuses by switching out the lighting which was MH or HPS to LEDs. First people are amazed by the color the LED lighting is producing, second the maintenance superintendents are shocked because over the last 2 years they havent had to touch any of the lamps, zero maintenance. Not only that, the energy manager for the campus is high fiving the lighting superintendent because hes saving him so much money.

I know its not a reef example but out in the field, LEDs are being proven day after day as zero maintenance.

[Milad]

btw thread is derailing! back to OP topic, Ill have to give that a try to see how it looks.

[intarsiabox]

I've been leary of LED's since last year when I went into one of the local SW stores to see the new LED fixture they had on display over their main display tank. After about 30 seconds I started getting a bad headache from it and the lights produced a grid effect all over the tank. I don't know if this is typical and I wish I could remember which brand it was so I could avoid it. It wasn't a cheap set up either. My LED flashlight actually looks better this fixture did.

[reefwars]

btw thread is derailing! back to OP topic, Ill have to give that a try to see how it looks.


i was actually over to a friends house the other day who ordered some leds with you and believe me hes got me sold its a beautiful set up and the lights are amazing i do like the dimmable drivers and the no heat or maintanance issue.things i didnt like though were where its diy theres no room for error on installation, bulbs have a possibility of burning out quick from heat,to add extra led's means a fair bit of work plus you need to find something to mount them on plus heatsink as well.

what happens when the leds get wet? what about salt creep?

ill send you a pm as i do want to order some like i mentioned they both have great features youll just have to send me step by step instructions on install lol:)

[whatcaneyedo]

Remember the PFO Solaris fixtures? Does anyone still own one or did they all break down as PFO went out of business? I'll wait for the industry to mature some more.

I'm also concerned about the spread. A single 250W MH in a good reflector can light a 3'x3' area quite well. What would a person need to achieve the same goal with LED? I plan to make my next tank 5' long and 3' front to back which I'll be able to comfortably light with my current two pendants.

[Milad]

Most people put a pane of glass between the LEDs and tank to prevent salt creep and getting them wet. Acrylic works too but it can sag.

You can also mount the LEDs more than a foot above the tank and there shouldnt be any salt creep/wetness.

Is your friend on canreef? Which LEDs did he get? You may have been spoiled by the new XM-Ls, they are inhumanly bright.

[reefwars]

Remember the PFO Solaris fixtures? Does anyone still own one or did they all break down as PFO went out of business? I'll wait for the industry to mature some more.

I'm also concerned about the spread. A single 250W MH in a good reflector can light a 3'x3' area quite well. What would a person need to achieve the same goal with LED? I plan to make my next tank 5' long and 3' front to back which I'll be able to comfortably light with my current two pendants.


thats kinda my thing too im using my 250w halide on my 20g and can upgrade to a larger tank with no upgrade to light as it has a good refector if i were to order leds for my 20g and wanted to upgrade back to my 60g cube is the spread gonna cover the extra width??:)

[reefwars]

Most people put a pane of glass between the LEDs and tank to prevent salt creep and getting them wet. Acrylic works too but it can sag.

You can also mount the LEDs more than a foot above the tank and there shouldnt be any salt creep/wetness.

Is your friend on canreef? Which LEDs did he get? You may have been spoiled by the new XM-Ls, they are inhumanly bright.


they are insanely bright lol but the beauty is you can power them down which leads to my next question if you have to power them down what are you really losing??

[Milad]

Remember the PFO Solaris fixtures? Does anyone still own one or did they all break down as PFO went out of business? I'll wait for the industry to mature some more.

I'm also concerned about the spread. A single 250W MH in a good reflector can light a 3'x3' area quite well. What would a person need to achieve the same goal with LED? I plan to make my next tank 5' long and 3' front to back which I'll be able to comfortably light with my current two pendants.


The spread is all about the optics. Most LEDs come with 125 degree lens on them. Most users of tanks that big put something like 60 degree optics on the LEDs to focus the light on the area. To get an output of a 250W MH you can do about 36 XP series LEDs or 28 XP/XM mix. I would think coverage is more of an issue of a single point light than a bunch of smaller spread out LEDs. For instance my penisula casts shadows because of how my rock work, under a standard MH fixture. With LEDs, you can spread them out with the correct optics and you can get more coverage, or tighten them up and do spotlight effects.

Here is some info on picking the right optic but it will give you an idea how the coverage works depending on which optics you choose and how high you hang the light. http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/pages/Choosing-the-right-optic.html

[Milad]

they are insanely bright lol but the beauty is you can power them down which leads to my next question if you have to power them down what are you really losing??

Only thing you are loosing is intensity I guess? Not sure what the question is.

[reefwars]

Only thing you are loosing is intensity I guess? Not sure what the question is.

i guess you answered it lol so if i were to power them down what the benefit of having them full power say to half power?? or vice versa what would the effect be say to corals what would they lose or gain??

[Milad]

i guess you answered it lol so if i were to power them down what the benefit of having them full power say to half power?? or vice versa what would the effect be say to corals what would they lose or gain??

Less power
Cons: Less lm, so less light for the corals
Pros: LEDs run at lower heat so they last longer and they are easier to cool

More Power
Cons: LEDs run hotter, harder to cool, can reduce the life of the LED if they are running hot for too long
Pros: More light for your corals


Someone posted a very interesting picture somewhere which I should have saved on dimming his LED fixture when he had just put in the sand into his aquarium. The sand "grabbed" the light and it was interesting to see how dimming effected the intensity.

The only way I can explain it is if you had a balloon and you filled it with air and put it inside an empty tank. The area of the balloon was the most intense part of the light (100 intensity). A bit outside the area it fades down to 0.

So as you release air out of the balloon you can imagine it getting smaller and the intense part of the light becomes smaller. This is you running them at lower power. Now you add air to the balloon, the intense part of the light gets bigger and it starts getting closer to the sand and hitting the glass. This is you turning up the power.

Its not efficient to turn up the power to hit the sand, its more efficient to just add optics to control the light to where you want it to go.

im kicking my self for not saving that image. I might have to just grab a tank and throw some sand in it and an LED light over it and dim it to show you what i mean. It was kinda eye opening.

[Milad]

Maybe I should start a new thread for questions/answers on LEDs for everyone on canreef. Interested?

[reefwars]

id be for sure do it up:) theres alot of people who have questions including my self:)

[Ryan7]

I just set two of these 100w led spotlights over a 220G 2 months ago, with dimable ballasts.

http://www.ecoxotic.com/catalog/product/gallery/id/89/image/393/

http://www.ecoxotic.com/aquarium-led-lights/cannon-pendants/cannon-led-pendants.html


-easily spreads the tank
-12" above the water and may be too bright (testing stage, currently dimmed to 75%)
-costs about $250 more then what I would have spend on MH
-way less heat transfer
-brings out corals colours better then any light I have seen

cannot comment on coral growth as of yet with these

Nothing wrong with MH, but so far these are proving to be better IMO.

[Aquattro]

Ryan, with spots like that, depending on color, I could see these replacing MH. As long as growth is good long term. Keep us posted.

[Aquattro]

You guys realize LEDs are cheaper than MH in about 2-3 years time if you do a DIY.


for me it's not entirely about cost, although there is no way I could afford a new light setup if even I thought they'd stop the aging process :)

I like the light I get from MH point source lighting, and I don't like LED lights. I don't like the shadows or the colors or even the flicker. Some may be better than others, but they just aren't what I'm looking for. I have my heat handled, bulb replacement annually doesn't hurt financially and hydro is hidden in my bill, and as far as I'm concerned, a part of the hobby I chose.

The lights posted above by Ryan7 may alleviate some of this, and if I get robbed and someone steals my tank and insurance will buy me a new one, I might look at them. Maybe.
but for now, I prefer MH, which works out well since that's what I have, and I'm not throwing away perfectly good lights to get something I like less.
Lighting always comes down to personal taste, and LED are not to my taste.

[lastlight]

Those could be potentially game-changing...

I've read these high-powered canons are not nearly as energy efficient as the lower wattage LEDs but it sounds like 3 or 4 of these 100w versions would light a 400g nicely...

So their 50w versions are not dimmable by the looks of things?

[lastlight]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2019873

There is a guy with 3 of the 100w 12ks over a 500 and he loves them. Here goes my evening/early morning ugghhh....

[lastlight]

Looks like I'd need a controller to use the dimming however. I don't think you can program those drivers. They connect to a controller. Also... since these things are a single color (12k or the bluer one) you'd have to mix them if you didn't want a really blue or a 12k look. By the time you spread these over a tank and start mixing I imagine you'd see the 12k/blue banding in the tank.

[Aquattro]

Brett, agreed. But I'd have to see the 12k, it might look ok, or you could add a T5 tube for blue (somehow)

[lastlight]

Brett, agreed. But I'd have to see the 12k, it might look ok, or you could add a T5 tube for blue (somehow)

Agreed I'd really like to see one first. And I can't see myself just buying one to test either as it's still a lot of money.

After reading that RC thread I do get the feeling that these things are not quite as good par-wise as an actual fixture with 3w LEDs.

[Aquattro]

Ya, they're LED, but not in the sense of what most people consider LED for tanks. These especially would need to be proven long term.

[lastlight]

Thankfully I love my halides. And I'll need the heat rather than hate it once I'm into the basement tank. :mrgreen:

[Aquattro]

Ya, other than Radiums not being available anymore, I love mine too. And my 1/2hp chiller takes care of any heat that they can throw :)

[lastlight]

That might change if Radium gets their act together. My XM 10k bulbs should arrive soon. I'll post pics of the scorching par monsters here maybe for the LED folk.

They'll each run 360w on my PFO magnetic. It's all about going green =)

[Aquattro]

Jeff says the radiums are out due to mercury content or some such thing. Might try the Geismanns next.

[Milad]

Agreed I'd really like to see one first. And I can't see myself just buying one to test either as it's still a lot of money.

After reading that RC thread I do get the feeling that these things are not quite as good par-wise as an actual fixture with 3w LEDs.

True, you cant look at the wattage and compare LEDs. 50w of CREE XM LEDs will be much brighter than the 50w cannon.

I think we read the same thread on RC, they didnt get good reviews.

[whatcaneyedo]

The spread is all about the optics. Most LEDs come with 125 degree lens on them. Most users of tanks that big put something like 60 degree optics on the LEDs to focus the light on the area. To get an output of a 250W MH you can do about 36 XP series LEDs or 28 XP/XM mix. I would think coverage is more of an issue of a single point light than a bunch of smaller spread out LEDs. For instance my penisula casts shadows because of how my rock work, under a standard MH fixture. With LEDs, you can spread them out with the correct optics and you can get more coverage, or tighten them up and do spotlight effects.

Here is some info on picking the right optic but it will give you an idea how the coverage works depending on which optics you choose and how high you hang the light. http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/pages/Choosing-the-right-optic.html

So to get what I need I'd have to build it myself? Ouch... I haven't even completed my current trade.

[lastlight]

Jeff says the radiums are out due to mercury content or some such thing. Might try the Geismanns next.

Apparently they won't supply the proper paperwork declaring the mercury levels. I'm guessing that means the reef world is a super tiny slice of their market and they can't be bothered... OR these bulbs are loaded with mercury and they gave up. Either way it stinks.

[Milad]

So to get what I need I'd have to build it myself? Ouch... I haven't even completed my current trade.

Yes but just hold out for couple more months and ill have a kit for you that basically is plug and play. No soldering, no drilling, no tapping. Just pick the colors and plug in the power.

[StirCrazy]

Remember the PFO Solaris fixtures? Does anyone still own one or did they all break down as PFO went out of business? I'll wait for the industry to mature some more.


haha, they were using old old LEDs, not anywhere near the power of the current ones.

I'm also concerned about the spread. A single 250W MH in a good reflector can light a 3'x3' area quite well. What would a person need to achieve the same goal with LED?

3x3 from a single MH is not a good even output and is realy streatching the light out. yes it can light this amount but at a lower par. 2x2 is the effective max for MH.

Steve