Sump pump size...

[hdrob]

Hello,

I am new to reefing and building a 130g reef setup. I plan on using a 50g for a sump and was planning on having a fuge (maybe as part of the 50g or add a 20g?) as well. The DT has dual 1.5" drains and returns.

Would a dart hybrid be too big of a return pump for all of this?

I was also planning on using koralia powerheads in the tank for more flow.

Hopefully that's enough info. I'm assuming that a dart hybrid would be too much for a return pump. Just wondering what others thought.

Thanks!

[mark]

Skimmin had a really nice 120g with a Dart (here (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=36668))

[Lampshade]

I have very close to the same setup as you, i've got a 150gal, with 50 gal sump that has a 20gal fuge as part of it. I have 2x 1.5" returns set up as a herbie, one side of the tank is done with the gate valve for flow adjustment, the other 1.5" is the emergency drain. the flow back to the tank is done through 1.5" PVC and splits to 2 x 1.5" going into the tank(I'm planning on choking these down to 2x3/4" for some more velocity comming out of the nozzle) I've got 3x kora 4's for flow in the tank and using a dart gold pump for the return. I've got a bunch of stuff T'd off the return, my carbon/refugium are right now, and once i change the nozzle's in the tank i should have enough back pressure to put my pellet reactor on there too.

The Dart Gold i'm using has LOTS of flow, i have a dump from the outlet back into the sump to be able to change the output, i usually run it dumping about 1/4 of the flow back to the sump right now. I lost a lot of flow going to herbie, the 1 overflow cannot handle the amount of water that is needed. I had duroso before but was having problems with microbubbles.

I'd suggest going for it, i'm wasting a bit of flow right now, but saving on heat since i have reactors running off the return rather than having individual pumps.

[MKLKT]

Generally you want the turnover in your tank to be 10:1 or greater from return rate:tank volume. Remember you have to take into account the head height for the returns of the water being pumped back up from the sump to. You'd probably want to play with baffle ideas to put a fuge in that (low flow is better for refugiums.)

For example I have a 65g display with a 20g sump and I have a pump that outputs ~950GPH at 4' which is the vertical distance the water is traveling.

[Lampshade]

One other thing i would STRONGLY suggest. If your tank isn't set up yet, drill a few more holes, cap them if you won't use them, but that is one thing i wish i did, i'd run a side overflow witha stockman setup, and use 4 1.5" hols for a closed loop setup.

Even if you don't go with the overflow, drill a couple more so you can set up a herbie.

[mark]

The Dart Gold i'm using has LOTS of flow, i have a dump from the outlet back into the sump to be able to change the output, i usually run it dumping about 1/4 of the flow back to the sump right now. I lost a lot of flow going to herbie, the 1 overflow cannot handle the amount of water that is needed. I had duroso before but was having problems with microbubbles.



valve back to reduce flow and your power consumption will go down

[Lampshade]

valve back to reduce flow and your power consumption will go down

Nice, thanks, i'll give it a shot. Already pretty efficient, can't complain. only uses 130W, valve might cost more than i'd ever save :S

[hdrob]

That's great. Thanks for the reply!

If the flow wasn't too over the top I was going to go with it. Like you said, I can always Tee off excess flow back to sump. I wasn't going to drill for closed loop, but I might still do it. The tank that I'm hopefully picking up this weekend has 2 corner overflows with one hole in each overflow (hole is drilled right in the centre, no room for another hole). Just outside of each over flow is is another hole for return. So, I should be able to setup one overflow as a semi-herbie with the second overflow as an emergency drain? Or should I set it up with stockman type of drains?

I like the look of a separate 20g refugium beside the DT. I guess by using the one pump and splitting the flow to fuge and other equipment, I should be ok with the dart.

Thanks a lot.

-Rob.



I have very close to the same setup as you, i've got a 150gal, with 50 gal sump that has a 20gal fuge as part of it. I have 2x 1.5" returns set up as a herbie, one side of the tank is done with the gate valve for flow adjustment, the other 1.5" is the emergency drain. the flow back to the tank is done through 1.5" PVC and splits to 2 x 1.5" going into the tank(I'm planning on choking these down to 2x3/4" for some more velocity comming out of the nozzle) I've got 3x kora 4's for flow in the tank and using a dart gold pump for the return. I've got a bunch of stuff T'd off the return, my carbon/refugium are right now, and once i change the nozzle's in the tank i should have enough back pressure to put my pellet reactor on there too.

The Dart Gold i'm using has LOTS of flow, i have a dump from the outlet back into the sump to be able to change the output, i usually run it dumping about 1/4 of the flow back to the sump right now. I lost a lot of flow going to herbie, the 1 overflow cannot handle the amount of water that is needed. I had duroso before but was having problems with microbubbles.

I'd suggest going for it, i'm wasting a bit of flow right now, but saving on heat since i have reactors running off the return rather than having individual pumps.

[mark]

I'm more than happy with my modified Herbie (dual overflows, one chamber primary, second has the emergency) but some discussion about using a Beananimal with dual overflows on page 100, post 2495 (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1541946&page=100).

Bean is as silent as a Herbie and some say more range on a Bean before adjusting required.

[George]

The tank that I'm hopefully picking up this weekend has 2 corner overflows with one hole in each overflow (hole is drilled right in the centre, no room for another hole). Just outside of each over flow is is another hole for return. So, I should be able to setup one overflow as a semi-herbie with the second overflow as an emergency drain? Or should I set it up with stockman type of drains?

-Rob.

With 2 holes, you can do a full herbie. Not sure what you meant by semi-herbie. You will use one hole as the main drain and another one as the emergency.

[hdrob]

I was asking if mark's setup was possible or if anyone had it setup like that.

One hole per overflow with 2 corner overflows.

Thanks Mark!

[mark]

Only issue I could see with running primary in one and emergency drain in the other overflow is water becoming stagnant in emergency's chamber.

Was going to raise the lip height of the overflow with emergency but never did. What I ended up doing was drill a hole in the side of the emergency drain standpipe so I have a small but continuous movement of water. My sump can easily handle the full volume of the chamber in a power outage but I still drilled it up near the top of the standpipe and have a 1/4"OD tubing running to the bottom. Since hole is near top, that's my siphon break.

I'm also running a 20g fuge separate from my sump and just tee's the primary drain. About 200gph to the fuge rest to the sump. Here's (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=69375) my post on converting from dual Dursos to the Herbie.

[hdrob]

I was planning on raising the emergency overflow lip.

Is there a benefit to letting a small amount of water flow through emergency overflow?

[mark]

think it's a either or type thing. Raise the lip or if both OFs same height, move the water a bit. For the emergency drain line itself, can't see advantage of running water through it, though see some conventional Herbies always running a little moist.

btw since you only have a single hole in each, seems a Bean is out.

[sphelps]

Why not use all drilled holes for drains so you can setup a dual herbie, then just run your return behind and over your tank.

And the dart isn't a bad size for the tank, a little big but nothing it couldn't handle. Personally I would go with a good quality internal pump for noise and reliability but that's just my personal preference.

[mike31154]

The way he described his overflows (post #8), the extra, or return holes are drilled outside of them. He'd have modify or move the overflows to include these outside holes (or plug them?) to do the Herbie using all drilled holes.

[sphelps]

The way he described his overflows (post #8), the extra, or return holes are drilled outside of them. He'd have modify or move the overflows to include these outside holes (or plug them?) to do the Herbie using all drilled holes.
IC, in this case I would personally wouldn't use a standard herbie design, I think using a second overflow with the purpose of emergency only will lead to problems as already stated such as stagnant water even if it's higher as water will still sit around the bulkhead which could lead to mold growth and that algae smell. What I would do is use the one overflow as a primary to take the majority of the flow, you can still set it up with a gate valve but adjust it so a small amount of flow still goes through the second overflow which would have a durso standpipe. Setup the durso so it has a small siphon break hole and a longer downspout, if the primary clogs up the durso will siphon under the higher load to prevent tank overflow. The second overflow will need to be slightly higher but nothing significant, a layer of silicone should be sufficient.

[Lampshade]

sphelps is right with the problem waiting to happen. I'm currently runnign that setup, since i only have 2 holes drilled in my tank and i'm running a herbie. A herbie emergency drain should be bigger than the original, mine is not. I've got the main fairly restricted, but if it was to 100% plug, there would be problems, i don't think the second overflow could handle 100% flow. It would top the overflow and still make the drain, but my tank would be near/at 100% full.

As for the stagnant second overflow, i have a 1/4" hold drilled about halfway down my emergency drain, keeps a bit of flow, but still lots of sediment at the bottom of the overflow.

But yes, i would recommend another hole drilled to run a herbie (a 2" if your main return is 1.5"), it's silent. There's lots of other setups around too, i like the stockman, or the Beananimal mentioned is a great one as well. All preference.

[mark]

From first hand experience have to disagree that a modified Herbie is a problem waiting to happen. Mine's been up since last October, water in the 2nd chamber can't be that bad as snails don't seem to find it a problem. As for sediment, what's in the overflow is what's left from when I pulled out the Durso. If it was a problem guess I could just siphon out when I did a water change.

Idea for the emergency being a Durso is interesting but since I'll need to worry about flooding at 2000gph if the primary became blocked, I'd be reluctant having the emergency standpipe anything other than a open pipe.

Drain size, here's a calculator (http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx) for a guide, (towards bottom). 1.5" should be able to handle a Dart.

[hdrob]

Maybe I'll start with a durso or stockman setup first and if that's not quiet enough, try something else?

Beananimal is out, I have single-hole corner chambers.

Thanks for the input!

-Rob.

[sphelps]

From first hand experience have to disagree that a modified Herbie is a problem waiting to happen. Mine's been up since last October, water in the 2nd chamber can't be that bad as snails don't seem to find it a problem. As for sediment, what's in the overflow is what's left from when I pulled out the Durso. If it was a problem guess I could just siphon out when I did a water change.

Idea for the emergency being a Durso is interesting but since I'll need to worry about flooding at 2000gph if the primary became blocked, I'd be reluctant having the emergency standpipe anything other than a open pipe.

Drain size, here's a calculator (http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx) for a guide, (towards bottom). 1.5" should be able to handle a Dart.

Well provided it was maintained it may not cause a problem, but why bother adding something that does little good and requires extra maintenance. Using a whole overflow box for emergency reasons only is a waste, 99.9% of the time does nothing but take up space. The reason Herbie overflows have the second drain is because the first is so fine tuned that very minor changes can cause the water to back up but the chances of the primary drain actually clogging 100% is very unlikely. Overflow boxes should always be screened to prevent large enough objects from clogging the drain. Most people don't run Herbies and many only run a single drain, I've personally never seen a or heard of a full clog before with a standard overflow setup.

In addition if you setup the Durso properly it will siphon at higher flow rates and extending the downspout to the bottom of the overflow box will actually add head pressure and will be capable of flowing more than a straight pipe that is typically used in a Herbie setup. Plus on top of that using the standpipe will allow more freedom in tuning, if your flow increases or decreases slightly you will not have to adjust the valve like you would on a typical setup. Lastly by sending some water to the second overflow you eliminate the questionable stagnant issue and you get the benefit of more surface skimming by actually using that second overflow for the purpose it was intended for. There really is no downside to this and I've always setup Herbies in this fashion.

[mark]

Main reason I went Herbie was noise from the air in the lines. The display itself with Dursos was near silent but the gurgling finally became enough. Can't see going back.

If was to do over again from the start, would definitely layout for the Herbie the primary and emergency standpipes in the same chamber. I've got an established tank, basement sump and now a finished basement so to either cut out the overflow (then I'd have my return and emergency bulkheads open on the floor of the tank) or to swap my drains with my CL inlet just isn't worth the hassle.

To the OP, you're got a dry tank now, enlarging the overflow chambers to accept a second (or 3 bulkhead) to get right from the start, might be something to consider.