Skimmerless?? Anyone??Miracle Mud?? [Archive] - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

UnderWorldAquatics

01-20-2004, 08:38 PM

Ive done it with reverse sump lighting, I didnt use a skimmer, I didnt do any water changes except for fresh water top up and I only added salt when the salinity dropped over a 4-6 month period(about a cup or 2), it was on a 77 gallon tank with 160W of NO lighting, sump had mineral mud, and calurpea, and liverock, tank had 90 lbs of liverock, a couple dozen corals of all different varities, 1 regal, 2 bangii cardinals, 1 colored bubbletip anemone, 120 or so cleaners of various varities, 2 goldstripe maroons, and a school of chromis. everything did very well, not the best for sps, but it worked great, I also added salifert all in one and iodine ocasianally. I never changed the bulbs and am infact still using them on a different tank, the bulbs were used for 4 years on that reef, I only took it down because I moved, it cost me about $150 a year to maintain it, I used tap water with conditioner.

This tank was setup to see how basically a tank could be maintained, it always looked beautiful.... I dont recommend anyone do this, but it did work in my situation very well

whaase

01-20-2004, 08:49 PM

Uh ohhh. I know he's coming! Bob? :lol:

Walter

Canadian Man

01-20-2004, 09:11 PM

Uh ohhh. I know he's coming! Bob? :lol:

Walter :lol:

monza

01-20-2004, 09:50 PM

I have a jumbo skimmer. Live sand in half my sump and miracle mud in the other half. If I was to have any comment on the mud it would be, it costs to much. Can't really say if it does any good or not. There are no bad effects from it. IMO I would give it a pass. But who know's, deep sand beds when I started mine were the rage now they are on the out.
Now that I can see this post is no help to you, good luck!

Dave

BCOrchidGuy

01-20-2004, 10:04 PM

Thanks for the replies, I used mineral mud in my refugium last time and found my calupera grew rapidly. I'm thinking though of not using calupera so much as seaweeds... I've got tons of research to do, got the tank ordered, I'm making some of my own live rock, I'll probably build a 33 gallon sump but if I decide not to go with the refugium then I'll make my 45/55 acrylic tank into a sump.

Doug

Delphinus

01-20-2004, 10:43 PM

Isn't MM just sand with extra iron? I'm not sure. Is the point of it just to make your macros grow faster? Wouldn't that mean you're pruning more often?

Skimmerless is fine, it depends on the context and your tank management style/practises. I've done with and without. Generally speaking I like a skimmer better, but I find that going with "no skimmer" is less annoying than, say, going with a "skimmer that sucks."

I sure wish we could get eelgrass or turtlegrass from somewhere up here. AFAIK none of the Canadian vendors have any, if you find any please please please please let me know about it, I've been aching to try some for years and years now. I almost bought some last time I was in the U.S. but I chickened out at the last moment because I wasn't sure if it was CITES or not.

... Just noticed you said seaweeds instead of seagrasses. What kind of seaweeds did you mean? "Seaweed" to me means "macroalgae" (of which caulerpa is a type, of course). There are other kinds of macros though. Halimeda, Chaetomorpha, Gracillaria, etc. etc. Chaetomorpha (spaghetti algae .... I sometimes call it brillo pad or "green pubes" [since that's what it kinda looks like] :redface: ) is a nice one not prone to sporulation like Caulerpa and Halimeda are (only thing is it tends to be a bit of a slow grower unless under BRIGHT lighting like halides).

MitchM

01-20-2004, 11:12 PM

You can find an anaylsis of Miracle Mud here:

http://www.inlandreef.com/Testing/MManalysis.html

and a few lengthy discussions here:

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=28&sid=f7cd0b9bdd933ca55e6ea1de83c4177f

:smile:

Mitch

BCOrchidGuy

01-20-2004, 11:56 PM

Mitch, thank you so much, I've been doing google searches on it and not found anything close to that. Amazing that so much hype has been made of it and it's so high in silicone as well as aluminum and iron. I did notice it's got a fair amount of magnesium which would be nice.

Tony, I guess instead of saying seaweeds I should have said see grasses and some macro algaes like mermaids fan which I haven't seen in forever. I've just been hearing to much about caluperas going asexual and that kind of worries me. Not to mention the dramatic damage C. taxifolia and other caluperas are having on the environment when introduced by hobbiests through their waste water etc. I wonder if local sea grasses would survive in an aquarium long term? Christy should have access to lots of turtle grass and eel grass as there are a number of biologists in the nanaimo area doing studies on eel grass and turtle grass (I think turtle grass).

Well, that makes me wonder as well if local mud from the beach would be a benneficial addition to a sump/refugium....

Doug

Namscam

01-21-2004, 12:09 AM

Hey Tony, I dont think any LFS sells eelgrass but if you ask nice to someone on the island they can get you some......Eelgrass are very common on mudflats, saw lots when I was in Bamfield, in general, just find a mudflat, and there you go instant eelgrass ready to be used

Delphinus

01-21-2004, 12:11 AM

Doug, some (although not all) of the seagrass/eelgrass species you have on the BC coast there, have ranges that extend down to the Sea of Cortez. I don't have any of my reference material handy, but I beleive that the Sea of Cortez enjoys water temperatures CLOSE to (albeit not quite exactly) that of a "typical" reef aquarium.

Again I don't have my texts handy with me but it's something I can check at home (as to which species it is that goes down that far south) and get back to you if you're interested. I've often wondered how well those species would do in one of our tanks. The ones that stay in the temperate zone, obviously no need to try those of course. I'd try it myself but unfortunately a walk to the beach and back with my shovel and a bucket is a little far for me. :frown:

Buccaneer

01-21-2004, 12:12 AM

Wonder if the eelgrass will adapt to the warmer water of our aquariums ???

Namscam

01-21-2004, 12:15 AM

I m sure they ll adapt to our aquariums because they are out of the water exposed to the warm air(esspecially in the summer) most of time anyways being on the mudflats and all

BCOrchidGuy

01-21-2004, 12:16 AM

That's what I was thinking, I've been diving on the sunshine coast when the top 10-12 feet of water has been close to 80 degrees for most of the summer. I figure it will adapt....

Doug

Delphinus

01-21-2004, 12:19 AM

BTW, eelgrass (Zostera marina) used to be collected out of Florida but the reason it is so hard to find is because collection of it (for basically any purpose) has been banned (and they are extremely strict in Florida, I don't know how they are in neighbouring states but I imagine they would be as well). Z. marina has a range that extends as far north as Greenland, so to me that suggests that it could be found in the Atlantic provinces (no idea about Canadian rules about collecting it, though).

Turtlegrass (Thalassia sp.) is sometimes available from places like InlandAquaria or billsreef.com (not sure if I have the address correct) but I believe that neither place will ship to Canada. :frown: I asked billsreef.com and they told me to take a hike (well ... politely of course). when I asked Inland, they never got back to me (I'll assume that's a "no").

Tropicorium is a place that has some grass, no idea if it's turtle grass or eel grass, but it is from a specimen collected over 10 years ago and they only sell cuttings of it. When I asked them where it had been collected they just laughed. "It is not collected any more."

Bear in mind that this stuff is supposed to be rather finicky. It may handle tropical reef like temps for part of the year but that does not mean it can withstand it year-round. Don't forget your coastal waters are .. ah ... a little chilly this time of year. :lol:

BCOrchidGuy

01-21-2004, 01:56 AM

Tony, I used to be a dive instructor out here, trust me when I say, "You're right, our waters are a bit cold this time of the year" We used to take folks out for their training dives almost every weekend of the year. Got pictures (Somewhere) of an open water class that we did in what would be considered a blizzard for us out here. Once your in the water the snows not a big deal. Interestingly enough, once you get below about 15 feet our water temperature only changes by about 3 degrees summer/winter. The top layer though can vary greatly (which is were you'll find eel grass etc). Our Island (vancouver island) has some of the most amazing places to dive, you'd be surprised at the varitey of marine life and colour you can see out here. Plumose anemone that are massive, flowing in the current, little strawberry polyps, amazing red creatures, sea squirts, nudibranchs, etc etc etc... Wolf eels that will eat an urchin out of your hand, they look like scared up old mens faces on a 6 foot long tadpoles body but they can behave like lonely puppy dogs.... anyway..

Doug

Bob I

01-21-2004, 02:28 AM

I know you are all waiting, but in my defence the question was asked :biggrin: I do not use a skimmer of any kind, no sump, no water changes, no refugium, no Miracle Mud, no testing. and last but not least NO PROBLEMS.

Oh and I almost forgot, no RO/DI water either.

I do use Chemipure in a Fluval filter. That's it. :rolleyes: :eek:

BCOrchidGuy

01-21-2004, 03:00 AM

OMG BOB!!!! You risk taker... I've been seriously wondering if we're going over board on alot of this stuff. I was thinking of going with the skimmerless idea, and keep my sump just because I like the auto fw top off. Instead of alot of costly additives a 10 gallon/week or even bi weekly water change should handle most issues....

I know I'm kind of going off and even against what I just said but, I've been considering using a plenum under my sandbed in the refugium, and live rock in the tank, no other filtration. Chemi Pure, I agree Bob that stuff does something and I've never had problems when I've been using it. I want an easy to take care of system that grows well, and looks good.... so much to think about.

Thanks for all the replies.

Doug

Canadian Man

01-21-2004, 04:16 AM

EmilyB

01-21-2004, 05:21 AM

Bob just changes tanks every few months, haven't you guys figured that out yet? ... :lol: :razz: :mrgreen:

Seth

01-21-2004, 09:45 AM

Mineral Mud rocks. But I think just sand is fine. The calerpa grows like crazy with mineral mud. Sometimes I think it grows too fast.

I think skimmerless tanks are fine. I never really had any major algae problems like alot of people do except for the inital cycle period when I got cyano but that went away pretty quickly. I never had any hair algae problem nor any bubble algae problem. I have this brown fuzzy algae right now but I only had like 2 snails in my tank. Now that I've added more snails, the brown fuzzy stuff is no problem either.

I am not saying skimmers are useless. Skimmers are very good indeed! After I added a skimmer, water quality seemed to be even better. The water was noticably clearer and my sps seems to color up better.

I'm using RODI water also so that contributes to my virtually algaeless tnak. :razz:

TNTCanada

01-21-2004, 11:18 AM

I tryed some sea grass from a local beach didn't grow for me the roots are sill in my tank the seem to be still a live but the tops died in a couple of weeks the roots have been in there for a month or so. I only have crushed coral in my tank no sand yet that might make a difference.

Beverly

01-21-2004, 01:05 PM

Doug,

My three marine display tanks (28g H. whitei tank, 42g mixed soft/lps/sps hex reef, 72g softie reef) are skimmerless, sumpless and refugless.

Do weekly 15% water changes on them all. Prior to the water change, I clean the glass, then vigorously turkey baste the lr, and gently baste sandbed and corals, which clouds the tank up pretty good. When the tank clears in a hour or so, I remove the powerheads, clean them (detailed below), remove 15% of the water, then add the new water.

All three tanks have Hagen powerheads with quickfilter attachments filled with foam and each week the PHs are removed, broken down and cleaned in tapwater with a toothbrush (never used in anybody's mouth). Impeller chambers are cleaned with q-tips. An amazing amount of crud gets trapped between the parts of the PH, and weekly cleaning definitely makes them run more efficiently.

Foams get special treatment. I get a 2 litre container, fill it 1/4 full of outgoing changewater, and squeeze the living heck out of them. When the water gets dirty, I dump it and get more water, then squeezed them some more. I continue dumping the water until the foams are clean and the water is clear. Foams, even after only a week, pick up huge amounts of crud. And after the basting, even more crud is picked up and exported.

Never had cyano or other algae blooms in any of my tanks with this method, but do encourage the growth of various MA that has come in on the rock so they will suck up nitrate and phosphate.

HTH :smile:

BCOrchidGuy

01-21-2004, 04:19 PM

That's great Beverly, thanks for the input. I've started steering away from the hagan power heads because of corrosion on the shafts, I've tried the hagan pro power heads and like them alright, they sure don't work under pressure though.

Doug

Beverly

01-21-2004, 05:29 PM

That's great Beverly, thanks for the input. I've started steering away from the hagan power heads because of corrosion on the shafts

You mean the impeller shaft? Hmmm... I haven't had any problems with impeller shafts, except when I've broken one, which taught me a lesson not to clean in there with a toothbrush :redface:

If I leave the powerhead uncleaned for over two weeks, which is rare, the impeller and shaft, all the way to the very bottom, gets a huge slime build up. I'm sure this impairs performance. Even when I break down and clean it weekly, I notice an improvement in water movement when I plug the thing back in.

I would imagine slime build up would be apparent in all powerhead impeller chambers if not cleaned frequently, no matter what brand they are.

BCOrchidGuy

01-21-2004, 06:09 PM

Beverly, yes the impeller shafts, I believe they are stainless steel, and I've found they go black. I'm assuming this is a form of corrosion. I know they can get pretty slimely, I like the pro series because they have the ceramic shafts. Alot of people say they have had trouble with the Rio's but I never did, but that was still worrysome enough for me to move away from them.

Doug

Doug

01-21-2004, 07:34 PM

Doug,
I have never had a problem with Hagen powerheads. Used them for more years than I care to remember. Never has one failed me. I would use no other kind myself. I,m going to look at the shafts, as I no not of which you speak. :confused: :smile:

On the skimmerless issue. I have tried many ways but always end up going back to my skimmers. Even with the use of my multi-billion $$$$$$ scrubber. :lol:

Thinking of giving it another try on my new 75g sps cube. Currently is running a large beckett, direct from the tank. My turf scrubber was rated for 250g, but it had trouble filtering my 225g. Perhaps I fed to much. Anyhow, one would think it would do well on the 75, even if its all sps.

Seems aquarists now feed their sps corals, so perhaps a skimmerless but turf scrubbed tank would also do well for them. I plan on using the flow from my stream pumps to keep the crap in suspension, until taken out by powerfilters.

Beverly

01-21-2004, 09:44 PM

Beverly, yes the impeller shafts, I believe they are stainless steel, and I've found they go black.

Doug, will keep an eye out for that, as I have never noticed it. As Doug L. has said, I too have used 802s and smaller Hagen PHs for as long as I can remember and have not yet experienced problems.

LostMind

01-21-2004, 09:52 PM

Hey Doug - what turf scrubber do you have? I am curious about them!

StirCrazy

01-21-2004, 09:57 PM

Seems aquarists now feed their sps corals, so perhaps a skimmerless but turf scrubbed tank would also do well for them. I plan on using the flow from my stream pumps to keep the crap in suspension, until taken out by powerfilters.

I think this is all the more reason to have a very efficient skimmer, you want the coral to get fed but you don't want the unused stuff staying in the tank and decomposing.

Steve

Doug

01-21-2004, 10:26 PM

I have the large model that was once sold by Inland Aquatics. Not sure who carries them now.

Steve, if whats left is particle in nature, why would mech. filtering not remove it or if organic in nature, then the scrubber would remove it. Thats what a skimmer is doing.

StirCrazy

01-21-2004, 10:34 PM

Steve, if whats left is particle in nature, why would mech. filtering not remove it or if organic in nature, then the scrubber would remove it. Thats what a skimmer is doing.

I supose it is but you are now adding a tone of maintence to the system, algae skimmers have to be cleaned regulary as well as do mechanical filters (even more so) you can cleam a skimmer once a week in 10 min. also from what I have read about algae scrubbers is that you have to watch for algae spreading to the tank if your not real carfull.

I like the idea of algae scrubber personaly but they take up a lot of room and from everything I have read are labour intensive.

Steve

Doug

01-21-2004, 11:09 PM

Sorry Steve, you read wrong. One thing they are not, is labour intensive. If anything its less than a skimmer. I, as a user of both, can compare servicing them.

Believe me, I would not change from my skimmer, if the scrubber was more work. Yes, it does take up room, but ok in my situation. Actually they are designed to sit on your tank, behind your light hood. Very nice looking acrylic work. Part of the reason for their cost. Of course if they come smashed to crap in the mail, like mine did, then its ugly with its glass body. :lol:

My beckett needs cleaning every few days also. Its easier to remove the scrubber screen and scrape it, than take the screws from the beckett and clean the various parts. Plus one does not need a large pump and plumbing everywhere, that worries me when some local is looking after my tank.

As good as becketts are, one thing that pees me, is the constant changing in foam production and levels, just because I look at it the wrong way. :lol: Ok, everytime I feed or touch the water. I feed mysis or brine a minimum of a couple times/day. Takes half a day for the skimmer to run again. :rolleyes:

Also the benefit of turf algae and scrubbers, over calerpa type in refugiums, is it wont transfer to the tank. Also one reason for good lighting over the screen, {two 55w power compacts}, is to out compete the tank. Plus RDP lighting.

Anyways, you should know I for one am not anti-skimming. Just like to talk about it on this thread Doug started. My large beckett will not be far away and I just finished the plumbing for a sump as a back up, just in case. :confused:

I also wonder how it would work on an all sps tank. Its does fine on tanks with corals more condusive to that type of system.

StirCrazy

01-21-2004, 11:25 PM

thanks Doug, I didn't realize there were little ones as all the ones I had read about said to make them effective they have to be 2 to 4X the surface area of the tank. do you have pics of yours?

Steve

Delphinus

01-21-2004, 11:32 PM

I would really love to see a dump in action from one. Anyone know of any video clips? :mrgreen:

I would like one just for the water dumping, not even for any turf growing or whatever.

Maybe that'll be a DIY project for later this year. LOL

Doug

01-22-2004, 05:13 PM

Steve, My screen is 24in. by 12in. Although it works well and is rated for 250g, I would not argue in favour of such, from my own experience so far. I have seen a few tanks with them running fine, but not many. Inland does use them to great success.

Thats one reason I wish to see how it runs the smaller tank.

I removed the pics last week. I will take some more when its running after the weekend. Tony, I will do a dump video for ya also. Its a modified surge though, because we built the glass dump chute different than the original design.

I cant even take a pic for you know, as its at a friends, on his 100g sump.

Skimmerking

01-22-2004, 05:19 PM

I can attest to the scrubber working its a awesome piece of kit. The dump is pretty cool lots of life coming out of the scrubber, and tangs love it. its pretty cool to watch the gathering of water and BAM the waer pours out...

MIke

Delphinus

01-24-2004, 05:49 PM

Ok. Sorry it's taken me this long to dig through my books, but I dug out my copy of "Pacific Seaweeds" by Louis Druehl and dig some reading about the seagrasses off the west coast.

The species he lists are Zostera marina, Z. japonica (eelgrasses) and Phyllospadix scouleri, P. serrulatus and P. torreyi (surfgrasses). He lists distribution for both Zostera and Phyllospadix as being "Alaska to Mexico."

As I do google searches on Zostera and read about it being found in England, off the east coast of North America, Greenland, Sweden, ....... I get the impression that these are temperate species. After a cursory search I didn't find any reference to this species being found in the Carribean or south Pacific. This suggests to me it's really not a suitable substitute for the commonly referenced "turtle grass" (Thalassia sp.) for the hobby. :neutral:

I haven't put any focus on Phyllospadix yet but I'm betting I'm not going to find a lot of info that one could use to postulate how it'd do in our reef refugia.

Found this site in my google travels, check this out, a seagrass forum: www.worldseagrass.org (has a great PDF listing seagrass species and their geographic regions).

I guess the stuff we want is Thalassia still. It sort of irritates me now that I didn't buy a small piece from Tropicorium the last time I was in Detroit. Problem is, by the sounds of it you really need to know what you're doing with these grasses otherwise they tend to die real easily. So I had at the time passed on it, thinking that I needed to know more before I commited to trying any. Nuts.

Anyone have a good relationship with Dick Perrin? AFAIK he won't touch any Canadian orders. Anyone on the board from Sarnia? Care to make a weekend drive and pick up a plant and send it to me?? LOL j/k.

When I'm set up in my new place (moving in April) I might start up my quest for Thalassia again but I guess until then I'd just be getting ahead of myself. But if anyone else cares to see if they can find some, please let us know what you find out!!!!