Peppermint Shrimp Spawn (Lysmata boggessi)

[DeneBanger]

No more than two hours after lights out my PS released the clutch and now I have several hundred larvae in the nursery! Upon observing them for the last two hours I have come to believe that the kreisel system is not the best method for rearing Lysmata and attempts to keep them suspended in the water column are unnatural and probably account for the low success rates in breeding this species. Let me explain my observations, the larvae are all attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery and arranging themselves in the same position, head down, abdomens gently beating in the water column. The nursery has been established for about two months and has plenty of diatoms and a nice brown film algae along the sides of the tank. Upon first glance I thought that perhaps they were getting caught in the film algae until I noticed that they are actually reaching out and taking a hold of the sides. I'm ruling out the possiblity that they are accidentally getting stuck because they have all taken on the same position (heads dow,n abdomens gently beating in the water column), if they were getting stuck they would be every direction including being stuck on their backs and they are not. Then every once in a while they will release themselves move along in the current and then reattach themselves. They appear to be feeding off the film algae in the nursery.
The set-up that I am using is a slightly modified version of the same breeding system that I discuss in my book "Breeding Berghia Nudibranches the best kept secret".

[monocus]

in which way has it been modified?i am going to be building one of your tanks using a 15 and 10 gal that i have kicking around-i'll just be cutting the bottom with hole saws instead(i have 10 different sizes)

[DeneBanger]

I just modified the power filter to one that is rated for 3 gallons and ran the feed line directly into the nursery rather than through the PF. Also added a PF to the sump.

[DeneBanger]

in which way has it been modified?i am going to be building one of your tanks using a 15 and 10 gal that i have kicking around-i'll just be cutting the bottom with hole saws instead(i have 10 different sizes)

very good idea! you may have to put some eggcrate under the inner chamber (or tank) to keep it suspended

[DeneBanger]

I'm also running 4 foot NO flourescents up top and I've added an aragonite sandbed to the sump and a flourescent tube over the sump for naturally occurring algae growth to provide a very nutrient rich water column.

(for the berghia don't run any lights except for harvesting)

[DeneBanger]

Here's another interesting observation, if I turn the lights out and wait an hour or so the larvae all release from the sides of the nursery and float around in the water column. If I turn the lights on again and wait for about a half hour they all start to reattach themselves to the sides of the nursery.

[monocus]

i have lots of egg crate and i have store bought under gravel filters that i am going to use-for lighting i have switched my whole house to led(including my aquariums and plankton reactors)i have various led bulbs and tube fixtures to experiment with,and i know about no lighting for the berghia.my 3 berghia tanks have 3 sides of the tanks blocked off with plastic wrapping paper to allow less room light in-works really well and you can still observe the berghia

[DeneBanger]

Now the larvae (http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/dictionary.php?word=Larva&fulltext=larvae) are beginning to take "prey", this time around I have decided not to go down the normal route of NHBBS, instead I have been starting to feed them fresh water cyclops in the 200-400 micron range. Based on my experience with raising seahorses I have come to learn a couple of things:
1) artemia cysts are notorious for carrying pathogens (especially vibrio sp)
2) I have only found hydroids in association with this food source.

and thirdly, one way to cut down on pathogens or disease is to introduce a food source from a different environment altogether. When we were raising seahorses we used a fresh water mysis (PE Mysis) in order to help reduce/eliminate disease.

[DeneBanger]

I just came back from feeding the PS, and now my "female" is holding eggs again so it looks like I'll have another batch of larvae in about two weeks. Just before she released the first clutch I noticed she was developing eggs behind her head and now just a day and a half later (after she was moved back to the mating tank) they have moved down to her abdomen.

[DeneBanger]

Quick update at 36 hours old the larvae have developed talked eyes.

[DeneBanger]

Quick update: this is now day 3...last night the larvae were swimming in erratic circles which leads me to believe that they went through some type of molting process because today they are all swimming normally again......but I am still at bench mark zoea 2. Tomorrow they should go through another major molt (zoea3) and develop tensile "fins". I have also noticed them still eating "meaty" food heartily and also grazing on the film algae on the sides of the nursery. I watched one very closely and it actually left a little "plow" mark in the algae about a 1/4 of an inch long as it gobbled away.
Since my "female" is holding a clutch again I think that I am going to concentrate on "her" diet and focus on foods with a very high DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid is an omega-3 fatty acid) rather than EPA. DHA is important in the development of the central nervous system. Drawing on my experience breeding seahorses I learned that most marine organisms have the ability to convert DHA into the necessary EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid) that they need but they cannot convert EPA into the necessary DHA that they need in development as a result you will see premature deaths in larvae or fry that are suffering from a DHA deficiency. So let's start right at the source and "pump mama" up with a high DHA diet while she is carrying the eggs.

[asylumdown]

This is one of the coolest threads I've seen in a while. Consider me subscribed.

[mark]

tagging along as well

[DeneBanger]

thanks.
So this afternoon stopped by the fresh fish counter at the local grocery store and picked up some ingredients for "mama's" diet:

1- small fresh squid $1.39
2- oysters on sale for 0.99 ea $1.98
1- large scallop $3.00
1- small piece of marlin steak $1.64 (I talked nice to the girl on the counter and told her what I was doing...she giggled and cut me a corner off the steak, I think I would have preferred some fresh mackerel but they were fresh out...anyway the marlin is a more coarse meat and that is what I was looking for.
1- bag of dried red seaweed $3.99

(and of course a box of medium sized ziplock top freezer bags and a handful of hot peperroni sticks to eat on the way home :biggrin:)

Once home, out came the blender and in went the squid, scallop, oysters, marlin and a small chunk of red seaweed (just enough to turn the whole batch a purple/grey colour once blended). Hit the blender button and let it blend away until it looked and smelt like a stinky thick milkshake. From there it was a matter of spooning it into the freezer bag, squeezing the air out and letting it lie flat in the freezer until fully frozen. Then I can break off a chunk or shave off slices for the Peppermints (mamas and pappas) and figure I have enough for about 3 months maybe. (The larvae I am going to keep on shaved FW cyclops...store bought BTW)

I was so pleased with my gourmet, I put a bit on the end of my finger and introduced it to the broodstock....man, they almost lept out of the tank at it,....fought over it and then each went its way with a nice little glob of seafood goo! Nothing better than when you've spent all day in the kitchen and the guests love the meal! Didn't hear a burp tho.

So today I measured the flow through on the nursery....3 gallons an hour... this gives me approximately a tank turnover of filtered water from the sump every two hours. (In other words it's a constant 100% water change in the nursery every two hours and its easier than maintaining a reef tank....that's for sure..life is good!)

Also did a 5-gallon water change on the system....that took less time than a cup of tea.

So all in all the system is working perfectly for Peppermints and their larvae,...next week I'm going to introduce a few snails into the nursery to help eat left over food....haven't decided which yet but I'm certain that I can co-breed snails along with the Peppermints (well we'll see) if not I'll set up another breeding chamber and toss them in that (the system is totally modular and I can pretty well add or subtract breeding chambers and broodstock tank set-ups in a few minutes).

[DeneBanger]

Okay so it's now day 4, although I don't have the ability to accurately measure the length of the larvae at the moment, they look to be about 2-3 mm long now. No other major changes at the moment...their just doing what larvae do...eat and swim, but I have noticed that they aren't attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery as often as what they did the first day. I guess that would be because they can handle the meaty foods now and aren't interested in the film algae as much any more. Gearing up for the next major molt which will bring me to zoea 3, things seem to be moving along well because I can see that their tails are less heart shaped now and broadening out with slight notches. So things are still looking pretty good at the moment.
Now, the way that the broodstock have been gobbling down the "new" food and the amounts of it that I can see in their digestive tract leads me to believe that I must have been starving these before hand and they certainly weren't getting enough (I had them on the FW cyclops as well up until yesterday's creation of the new food). Okay, I'm guilty...and I'm certain that this first group of larvae were probably not of the highest quality. Not only because of a "poor" diet in mama but this was her first batch as well. The broodstock were all very small and couldn't have been more than a few months old from post larvae.
Now, let's take a look at the losses so far....after the first night I lost most of the larvae but that has more to do with me experimenting with this system and I most certainly had the re-circulation PF (power-filter) far too high (there is no chance for the larvae to be sucked into this PF because this PF draws water in from an outer chamber). The second day the PF was still too high and finally had to be turned off all together with just the input water turned on at a rate of 3 gals/hour to give the breeding chamber a constant water change. As the larvae get larger I'll experiment with turning the PF back on...what I might have to do is add a very small recirculation pump to the water jacket between the inner and outer chambers...we'll see maybe next batch, I don't want to introduce too many variables at this point (this is were I think we as hobbyists make alot of our breeding mistakes..we panic make a million changes and then lose track of what has been done and loose sight of all the causes/effects. The inner chamber of the breeding unit holds all the larvae and none can pass through to any of the filtration equipment or return water, here I am not using any type of a screen but rather a natural barrier. So, right now it looks as though I have somewhere around 10-15 larvae left give or take a few (for now I am okay with that number since the goal of the first batch was to prove out the slight system modifications necessary when adopting my system from nudibranches to crustaceans....this passed with flying colours, so a little pat on the back for me, and the first major goal is a complete success). This frees me up to concentrate and spend my efforts on dietary needs. Really looking forward to the next batch because of the major diet change for mama and it'll be round two for her. On batch two we won't make any other changes to the diet, the broodstaock on the new food and the larvae on shaved frozen FW cyclops....but that for batch two.
Alright then...patiently waiting for the next major molt to occur and then we'll be at zoea 3.

[DeneBanger]

Well speaking about the success of the breeding system, we have had intermitten power outages all day, this last one was about 1 1/2 hours...during such events the breeding chambers all become independent and hold water with no adverse effects on the larvae or broodstock (however, this is dependent on ambient temperature).

A few random thoughts...if I have to add a small pump in the water jacket between the inner/outer chambers of the breeding chamber.....what I might do is add a small 9-watt submersible UV I'll hold that thought. Also, the inner chamber design could also be incorporated right into the design of a sump or if there is already room in an existing sump an inner chamber could easily be added (whereby the sump itself would become the outer chamber of the breeding chamber). This would make a breeding set-up possible for any and every hobbyist around the globe to incorporate into their reef or salt water set-ups. How is that for a home aquaculture explosion....maybe even a movement of truly conscientious aquarists! http://www.ultimatereef.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/smile2.gif By doing incorporating an inner chamber to every sump....well, it would take no time and very little effort to toss in a few snails or what have you...makes a lot of sense to me.

[RedCoralOnlineStore]

Tagging along! Intriguing! Would love to see pics of the setup! Great thread! Looks like I need to pick up a copy of that book!

[DeneBanger]

Today is day 5 and there are no larvae left from this batch. I'm pretty certain that this was a weak or poor quality hatch...just based on the observations of how the broodstock are devouring this new food and the quantities that they are able to consume compared to their previous diet of FW cyclops. I am expecting that this synopsis will be enforced as I continue to work with this species.

So mama's expected due date for batch two is June 16th which is only 11 days away....stay tuned to this thread.
:preggers:

[DeneBanger]

Tagging along! Intriguing! Would love to see pics of the setup! Great thread! Looks like I need to pick up a copy of that book!

Certainly! I've made arrangements for stores to buy at wholesale prices and purchase direct from the publisher.

[DeneBanger]

So now we are getting close to mama shrimp's expected due date of June 14th, in preparation I moved her from the broodstock tank to the nursery. The eggs look quite engorged but are still an olive green colour, over the next few days they'll start changing colour and the day of "delivery" (or a day before) the eyes spots of the larvae will begin to show. Mama is quite comfortable in the nursery and on occasion cleans the eggs with her rear legs.



This time I've added four very small Nassarius snails to the nursery to help with any uneated food. For this batch I'm going to stay with feeding the larvae shaved FW cyclops. In a batch or two I may moved over to NHBBS but for now I want to see if there is another food source that is easier (or more convenient) for home hobbyists to use.

[DeneBanger]

Today was the expected due date for the larvae. No larvae after 14 days, but mama's eggs are starting to look a green/grey colour so my guess is we are still about 2-3 days off, which will bring this batch of eggs to 16-17 days.

Now while I was feeding them tonight, the other one is carrying eggs too! This is a small clutch, compared to the other one. Not sure when this happened, perhaps at the same time...not really sure, I'll have to keep close attention to the egg colour on the second one and move it to the nursery just before the hatch. With any luck I should have two spawns within a few days of each other.

......stay tuned!

[DeneBanger]

Here are a couple of pics of mama holding eggs.

[DeneBanger]

It's day 20 and both are still holding the eggs.....

[monocus]

shouldn't the eggs hatch in 10-14 days

[DeneBanger]

shouldn't the eggs hatch in 10-14 days
......that is what I thought, but here we are at day 20 and I have two that are still holding the same eggs. I have begun to see eye spots on one of the clutches so that means I should see the larvae in the next few days from at least one shrimp. What I find interesting is that the system is 77-82 F so to have them holding eggs for this long seems extremely interesting. Perhaps this will be a very healthy batch..... or not....we are about to find out!

[DeneBanger]

This is day 21...on one of the PS the eggs are completely silver and full of eye spots...so I am expecting one batch of larvae after lights out tonight...the other PS is still holding but the eggs are starting to look green/grey so the second batch should follow in a few more days...

[DeneBanger]

Quick update....still no larvae! Both PS are STILL holding and the eggs on both are now a distinct silver and plenty of eye spots are visible to the naked eye...perhaps I'll have a nursery full of larvae tonight.

Now a note about the snails that I've added to the nursery, I added them too soon! On several occassions I've caught the adult PS killing them for a little escargot even though they are very well fed....so not a good idea to add the snails until after the larvae have arrived and the adults have been moved back to the broodstock tank. With this new diet that the adults are on I've observed significant growth and of course this prolonged period of carrying the eggs. We are now at day 22, I was of the understanding that it only takes 10-14 days for the larvae to hatch as was my experience with the first batch. Now, I'm starting to think that this prolonged period is far better and should produce higher quality larvae (time will tell) and that the previous 14 day cycle (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/glossary.php?do=viewglossary&term=34)may well be a premature cycle (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/glossary.php?do=viewglossary&term=34)as a result of poor nutrition (this is only an idea based on what I'm currently observing).

Now as far as the system goes, I am running a set of NO flourescents across the broodstock and the nursery; however, because the nursery has very little flow through I am starting to see the development of cyano (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/glossary.php?do=viewglossary&term=11), so the plan is to move the lights to a position several feet above to create more of an ambient lighting effect. If this doesn't help with the cyano (http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/glossary.php?do=viewglossary&term=11)then I'll switch to a light source for the broodstock only tank and leave the nursery with no direct lights. (The photoperiod is important to get the PS to keep spawning).

....my next entry should be the announcment of the larvae (I hope).

[DeneBanger]

Day 23...............both still holding.............

[DeneBanger]

Here is another very interesting occurrence.....today, while feeding the adult broodstock I noticed an empty carapace, the adults have undergone a full molt while holding the eggs at day 23 and it has not effected the eggs at all. I didn't know that this was possible.
So while we are waiting on this ever so slow larvae to make their grand appearance, let me mention something about feeding time. At feeding time I simply slice off a sliver of my frozen seafood goo and stick it to the end of my finger, each PS comes up to the surface in turn hangs on to my finger then takes off to the bottom of the tank again with a nice little clump of food. It has gotten to the point that they only have to see me coming and up they come!

[asylumdown]

Is the 10-14 day hatch period widely described elsewhere? If that's how long it's supposed to go, it's nuts that they haven't hatched yet. I'm imagining my sister 9 months overdue...

[DeneBanger]

Is the 10-14 day hatch period widely described elsewhere? If that's how long it's supposed to go, it's nuts that they haven't hatched yet. I'm imagining my sister 9 months overdue...

From what I understand yes....the 10-14 day hatch period seems to be what is the norm, but here I am at DAY 23 (and yes it is like your sister being 9-months overdue). Another thing some of the breeders are saying that it is not possible for the shrimp to molt and still be carrying the eggs......yet I have this situation, the carapace and the shrimp ready to release.

She is HUGE and waddles with a sideways canter dragging her abdomen along the bottom.

[DeneBanger]

Here is a pic of the left over carapace from the molt that occurred at day 23 while the PS was still holding the eggs (this one has been holding eggs now for 23 days). Please note the reflectivity of the eggs which is caused by the formation of the eyes of the larvae and please note the formation of a new batch of eggs behind the head.

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=9474&p=83722

[Magma]

seems to be really close to the head to be eggs, I thought shrimp carried the eggs closer to there tail, also doesnt mating happen after a fresh molt?

[DeneBanger]

seems to be really close to the head to be eggs, I thought shrimp carried the eggs closer to there tail, also doesnt mating happen after a fresh molt?

When the eggs first develop they develop behind the head and then are transfered down to the abdomen (more specifically to the swimmerets or pleopods) where they must be fertilized or else they will just drop off after a few days. In the pic of the PS you can see the eggs in the abdomen that are ready to be released, you can also see the new batch forming behind the head which will make their way down after the release. Yes you are correct that mating occurs after a fresh molt.

[DeneBanger]

Yesterday night the larvae arrived! Approximate count 20 at day 24-25! Their names are Sally, Susan, Robin, Brett, Marcus Apollius Mentis.......LOL! Just kidding! A small batch but the PS are still quite young.

These are doing the same as the first batch, they are attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery, for those that have attached themselves to the sides their positions are all the same, heads down and abdomens gently moving in the water column. Now it is time to feed the rascals.

[DeneBanger]

Day 2 the larvae seem to be doing very well, this morning I noticed that they have developed stalked eyes so now we are at zoeae 2. At day two this batch seems alot larger than the first, best guess is that they are approx. 2 maybe 3 mm long. Here's another observation, when I shine a flashlight into the nursery at night I've noticed hundreds of little copepods in the range of 100-200 microns feeding off the microalgae, these weren't there for the previous batch or at least they went unnoticed. I can't tell if they are feeding on them or not but for now I'm going to assume that the presence of the copepods is a good thing.

Another note the shrimp that just spawned is holding eggs again, and its mate is still holding....I've lost track of how long the mate has been holding so I'll just keep an eye on the egg development for now.

[asylumdown]

You lost the larvae on day 5 last time, is there something special that happens to them at that time the's extra risky?

[DeneBanger]

You lost the larvae on day 5 last time, is there something special that happens to them at that time the's extra risky?

Yes it is the molt from zoeae 2 to zoeae 3, so we'll see what happens this time around. For this batch I have not changed the diet for the larvae, but depending on what happens with them I might change the diet for the next batch to NHBBS. Once you have PS spawning they seem to be machines so it looks like I will have alot of opportunities to experiment.