View Full Version : High Efficiency RO/DI Systems
I really need to do something about my 1:4 RO production (good:waste). Our water is metered and they use the water use to calculate septic use as well, so double ding!
Anyway, I've been scouring high efficiency RO systems and looking closely at description and pictures. I think the only difference between high efficiency and normal output is a booster pump and an auto flush kit. I believe the idea is simply to push the water through at a higher pressure and the auto flush keeps the membrane running at peak performance. I believe this can be done with typical membranes.
Does anyone know differently?
Skimmerking
05-01-2011, 01:13 AM
Mindy those ones that are 1;1 ratio, well the way that its stated that the auto flash kicks in ,however there isn't any power mech's on there that would do that its just a fancy up flush system my system has an extra filter one for 5M-CArbon-1M membrane-DI
phi delt reefer
05-01-2011, 01:20 AM
do you think the efficiency could have something to do with how cold our water is? This company is promising 1:2 ratio on their cold water rated membranes;
http://reefbuilders.com/2011/04/07/growonix-high-flow-cold-membranes/
I just put my hand in a bucket of cold water from the tap for 5 seconds to adjust a heater and my hand started to get numb.
Most of us have good pressure - but Canadian water is frigid!
Mindy those ones that are 1;1 ratio, well the way that its stated that the auto flash kicks in ,however there isn't any power mech's on there that would do that its just a fancy up flush system my system has an extra filter one for 5M-CArbon-1M membrane-DI
No plugins eh? I know one I saw for sure had a booster pump attached to it. Yours is 1:1? Which brand?
do you think the efficiency could have something to do with how cold our water is?
I get 1:4 ratio with semi-warm water around 75 degrees. If I run straight cold water the flow slows down a lot, although the efficiency doesn't change.
Skimmerking
05-01-2011, 01:34 AM
No Mindy I don't have one I still have the original one from 2002 and just add filter to it as i go. i know that mine doesn't give off alot of waste thou. DOW membrane and i still don't have a flush n mine. my water here in the East end its like 850 by the time it gets to me. so I go through 2 membrane in a year,
No Mindy I don't have one I still have the original one from 2002 and just add filter to it as i go. i know that mine doesn't give off alot of waste thou. DOW membrane and i still don't have a flush n mine. my water here in the East end its like 850 by the time it gets to me. so I go through 2 membrane in a year,
Ew! That sucks. My tap water is usually between 120-160 ppm, so my membranes last a couple years(ish). I'm using a Filmtec 150 gpd membrane. I have a manual flush that I use at the beginning, end, and a few times during the day as I'm filling my reservoir. Takes all day.
Skimmerking
05-01-2011, 01:46 AM
that is why maybe you are getting a crappy ratio the 150 gal per day alot of the water is wasted, I found a huge difference in the 50 compared to the 100 saved alot of water and the membrane lasted longer now im getting around 7=8 months out of a membrane on a 50 gal
For me, it's not about saving money so much as saving water. It does annoy me that I get dinged for the septic the same as the water usage though. The savings really isn't that significant, but it mostly pays for the cost of fouling up a membrane quicker. I imagine this is where the auto flush kits come in...hoping they flush the membrane often enough to keep it from fouling.
I think I'm going to try putting a 75 gpd restrictor on my 150 gpd system and add a booster pump. See what happens. :D I have a year on this membrane already and it is still giving me 2 ppm out of the membrane. Lots of life left, but I think still worth the fun. Hehe
Hmmm...from Reef Central:
We feel it is misleading to tell people they can cut down on waste water by adding a second membrane. Here's why.
First - remember that what folks call "waste water" really would be better thought of as "flush water" in that this water serves the important purpose of internally flushing the surface of the semipermeable membrane to keep the membrane from fouling/scaling.
When you configure a system with two membranes in series (the waste from the first membrane going to the "in" port on the second membrane), for this discussion let's say it's two 75 gpd membranes, the system behaves like you have a single long (75 gpd x 2) 150 gpd membrane.
Now - if you use a proper flow restrictor, that is, one for a 150 gpd membrane, you'll have about a 4:1 waste to product ratio. Sounds familiar, right?
If however you don't change the flow restrictor - meaning you keep using the same restrictor you were using when you just had one 75 gpd membrane, then you'll see a waste to product ratio much lower than 4:1. But remember that the recommendation for a ~4:1 ratio comes from the membrane manufacturer. They are telling you that you need about a 4:1 ratio to keep the membrane flushed and keep the membrane from fouling or building up scale. Run the system with a lower ratio and you will foul/scale the membrane(s) quicker than would have otherwise been the case.
Instead of adding a second membrane to lower that ratio, you could have just changed out your flow restrictor ($4) instead. A much less expensive approach to get you to the same endpoint in terms of saving on waste water.
Now, to confuse things just a bit. Filmtec specs call for the 4 to 1 ratio on the basis of assumptions about the water that will be supplied to the membrane. If you have very soft water you MAY be able to get a decent service life from the membrane running at a ratio lower than 4 to 1 (e.g., 3 to 1). Remember that the waste water from the first membrane is about 25% harder than your tap water.
Bottom line: If what you are after is reduced waste water, experiment with a different flow restrictor for $4 instead of messing around with a second membrane plumbed in series.
As a side note, you can also lower the ratio by increasing the pressure delivered to the membrane (with a booster pump), because flow restrictors are sized assuming you are providing factory spec conditions (50 psi and 77 degrees for Filmtec membranes). Increase the pressure and you'll drive more water through the membrane and viola - less waste water. But as I mentioned above, if you do this (just like over-restricting a membrane) - the lower the waste to product ratio, the shorter the lifespan on the membrane.
Makes sense?
Russ
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2005963&highlight=efficient+membrane
phi delt reefer
05-01-2011, 03:20 AM
Myka - run the waste water line outside your down spot and just have it run off your lawn/driveway.
Or do they measure your sewage usage by just doubling your water consumption (thats how they do it here in London)
Myka - run the waste water line outside your down spot and just have it run off your lawn/driveway.
Or do they measure your sewage usage by just doubling your water consumption (thats how they do it here in London)
Ya, the septic usage is the same number as the water usage. :neutral:
As much as it chaps my ass to get charged for something I'm not really using (all that waste water is doing is flushing the membrane anyway) it bothers me more to be wasting fresh drinking water that I don't necessarily need to be wasting.
mike31154
05-01-2011, 05:34 AM
Check your home's plumbing for a Pressure Reducing Valve (PRV). Most homes not on a well, that is on city water, will have one to protect the house plumbing from over pressure. These valves are generally set to keep the pressure in your house from exceeding 60 psi. I have a Watts series 25AUB and those are the specs. It is adjustable however and I've tweaked mine to give me just above 80 psi. I also have two outdoor faucets plumbed in before the PRV so I get full city water pressure for the garden hose. I've measured that recently at about 110 psi. This drops off a bit with a hose running full blast.
In any case, I've found the 80 plus psi works well with my 75 gpd system particularly in the winter months when the input water temperature is down to 8 Celsius. I consider this tweak my 'free' booster pump. It keeps production at a good pace, but I haven't seen much difference in good to waste ratio, although to be honest, I've never taken the time to accurately measure my good to waste ratio, I'm pretty much guessing. I collect all the waste water in a couple of 55 gal plastic drums and use it creatively around the home & garden. I've pretty much given up on any of the magic bullet 1 to 1 solutions and simply don't consider the waste water as such, since I use it for other purposes.
As far as the membrane & wear etc., my system has been running for just over two years on the original membrane. The only thing I've changed so far is pre filters. Just finished a run of RODI water this evening and at the end I recorded 86 psi input @ 8 degrees C. My second pressure guage before the membrane showed 63 psi, so I'm losing 23 psi through the 3 pre filter stages. Probably time to change the 5 micron poly filter. When it's new, the pressure loss is around 20 psi. So it's safe to say that my membrane is working at close to 10 psi above the pressure (50 psi) that most manufacturers use when rating their membranes. Here's a little tidbit of info I saved to a text file on my hard drive, don't recall where I got it, but I'm pretty sure it's good data.
"Membranes are typically rated at 77 degrees and 50 psi.
For every pound of pressure lower than 50(psi) subtract 2% of the output. For every degree(F) below 77, subtract 1.4%.
Example: Let's take 40 psi water at the 77 degree temperature with a 50 GPD membrane.
50 GPD - 20% (40 psi) = 40 GPD.
Now let's take the 50 psi, but reduce the temperature to about 40 degrees:
50 GPD - 51.8% (since it's 37 degrees colder x 1.4) = about 26 GPD"
With the substantially colder water than manufacturer's rating for nominal production, I'm thinking my extra 10 psi helps a little in keeping the flow going somewhat better than if I was using the standard 50 psi house pressure available by default through a PRV. On the positive side, the colder water allows my 75 gpd membrane to get the input TDS of around 210, down to 0 after the membrane, so my DI media is hardly working at all and I haven't touched that either. If I recall correctly, the warmest input water I get is around 15 degrees C and during that time, the best RO reading I get is 1. I used to run a long length of input tubing through a bucket of water with a heater in it to get the temp up, but gave up on that idea some time ago, since I saw no significant benefit in production.
Sorry, long rant, but bottom line is, I choose to save the waste water for other uses rather than pursuing a 1 to 1 ratio using dual membranes, booster pumps etc. The quote you provided from BFS regarding the flow restrictor sounds interesting though, I might give that a go. Change the flow restrictor and maybe try hooking the input directly to the 110 psi city water pressure... Should probably confirm that all the components can handle the extra pressure though, lest I blow the whole system up!
wingedfish
05-01-2011, 02:38 PM
In BC where most (if not all) water is gravity fed, the growing areas have high pressures for the farmers and the houses have pressure regulators. On the prairies, all municipal water is fed by pumps and it is not cost efficient to supply high pressure water and so no need for pressure regulators. Stuck with what the city gives you.
Also, if you figure the price to run that booster pump in electricity and initial cost, you may find the cost of the water might be cheaper.
Rain collection into a barrel filtered and then pumped into the ro might be worth it, but a quarter of a 55G drum at prairie rain rates makes for few and far between water changes.
Cost of water and low efficient RO systems is at this point, a necessary evil of the hobby. 1:1 sounds great, but I'm skeptical.
StirCrazy
05-01-2011, 03:01 PM
Mindy, buy a JG valve or any falve that will fit on your waist water line and then you can measure the output and adjust as nessasary. as for flushing just flush ever 5 or 10 min manual while you are making water.. cheeper than a auto flush.
I think I had mine dialed into about 2:1 in victoria as I only had 16PPM out of the tap. Probably could have went to 0.5:1 with no problems there.
Steve
mike31154
05-01-2011, 03:14 PM
Hmm, interesting info on the non use of PRVs on the prairies. Greater Vernon appears to be an exception to the BC gravity fed norm though. There are insufficient sources/reservoirs in the surrounding mountains to provide water for everyone here. The bulk of our water comes from Kalamalka Lake. There are two pumping stations drawing water from the lake and they've recently upgraded the pumps to double HP. The city keeps cranking up the water rates to keep up with development, since the growth around here has spawned an ever increasing demand for water, which is relatively precious due to the dry climate. They've spent millions of $$ upgrading the Duteau Creek source which traditionally had high turbidity during spring run off causing frequent boil water notices. Even though the Duteau Creek source is up in the hills, there are still pumps involved to process the water through the fancy new treatment plant. And yes, they nail us with sewer charges based on the water meter reading, like Mindy in Saskatoon, double dinged. Even though in the summer the bulk of the water use is for lawns & gardens. Many more people xeriscaping their properties, turning them into gravel pits. I'm beginning to wonder whether keeping a garden is still worth it. As for the farmers & orchardists around here, there is a separate 'gray' water irrigation source that's turned on around this time of year and off again in the fall. Sorry, getting off topic here, but hey, it's still about water right??
mike31154
05-01-2011, 03:19 PM
Mindy, buy a JG valve or any falve that will fit on your waist water line and then you can measure the output and adjust as nessasary. as for flushing just flush ever 5 or 10 min manual while you are making water.. cheeper than a auto flush.
I think I had mine dialed into about 2:1 in victoria as I only had 16PPM out of the tap. Probably could have went to 0.5:1 with no problems there.
Steve
Ha, ha, yeah, 16 TDS is pretty sweet out of the tap. I'm pretty sure I've read that some folks on the coast just use DI, no RO membrane, zero waste that way, other than the DI media I guess.... and even that can be recharged if you don't mind working with some caustic chemicals.
Great idea using a JG valve to adjust the waste flow, a kind of variable restrictor! I think I have an extra one kicking around and will give that a go. Thanks.
Funny how stuff works, folks on the coast with too much water, rain forest, Manitoba getting flooded out, and those of us in between a little on the dry side.. With cheap rates and an overabundance of H2O, it's easy to get complacent about running waste down the drain.
wingedfish
05-01-2011, 03:26 PM
I stand corrected, and suspect the high pressure is for elevation issues. 1/2 psi per foot of rise.
mike31154
05-01-2011, 03:39 PM
I stand corrected, and suspect the high pressure is for elevation issues. 1/2 psi per foot of rise.
Hey, it's a big province, like most of them. Kelowna, just down the road has a large reservoir up in the hills, so likely most of their water comes gravity fed from that, perhaps some from Okanagan Lake, dunno, haven't really researched that area. Kelowna is easily twice the size of Greater Vernon.
Mike, thanks for your detailed posts! I will look for a PRV although apparently I shouldn't have one. I would be very nervous turning it up though because the house was built in the 60s, and a broken line would reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally suck!
Our house is quite small and the fish have pretty much taken over already so collecting the waste water is mostly out of the question. I have overflowed the washing machine several times with waste water already, and we just don't have the space for more 55 gallon barrels.
However, in the summer this might not be such a bad idea. A friend of mine just bought a couple 55 gallon barrels and a pump to hook up to his sprinklers. Good idea.
Mindy, buy a JG valve or any falve that will fit on your waist water line and then you can measure the output and adjust as nessasary. as for flushing just flush ever 5 or 10 min manual while you are making water.. cheeper than a auto flush.
Steve
Ya good call. Didn't think of that...sooo simple. :lol:
Aquatec has a simple, compact auto flush. Found it online for $50. I sent an email to BRS to see if they can get one in for me since their booster pumps are Aquatec too. From reading BFS's post on RC it sounds to me like frequent flushing would be quite important if I am going to be mean to the membrane. On the other hand, the auto flush is the same cost as replacing a membrane. Not really economically smart. Again though, it's the waste that drives me nuts.
go through at least 2g a day plus water changes, might flush once a month, use a adjustable restrictor valve set for 3:1 , on my second membrane in 5+ years (and thinking probably replaced my first membrane well before needed) and still get over 6 months before I replace my DI.
mike31154
05-02-2011, 03:32 AM
Mike, thanks for your detailed posts! I will look for a PRV although apparently I shouldn't have one. I would be very nervous turning it up though because the house was built in the 60s, and a broken line would reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally suck!
My house is old as well, built around the same time as yours I reckon. A tag on one of the gas pipes has 1958 on it! As far as I can tell the copper water pipes are the original installation and they're handling 86 psi no problem, in fact, the water line into my house is the same diameter copper pipe and it's dealt with city water pressure since the place was built. Not sure it was always at static 110 psi, but it has been since I moved in 2004. I did have a pinhole leak between the city's shutoff valve on the street and my house though. Had to get the yard dug up to repair, but it's patched and holding up fine. I still have more confidence in good old copper pipes than the new plastic stuff.
If you have a PRV it shouldn't be too far downstream from your water meter. If its the same Watts 25AUB, it wont' be difficult to adjust at all, in fact the spec sheet I pulled off the net says you should clean out the sediment screen from time to time. A wrench & screwdriver (pressure guage too I guess) is all you need to adjust the pressure. Loosen the locknut with the wrench, use screwdriver to turn the adjustment screw clockwise for more pressure, counterclockwise for reduced pressure. Once you have the desired pressure, tighten the locknut. Edit, might be two wrenches, not screwdriver.
http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=776
I forgot to look today. I will look at some point. Going to BC for a week, and then back to work until July, so no changes will be happening to my RO/DI before then. Life - in a suitcase. :neutral:
So I switched out my 150 gpd flow restrictor for a 75 gpd flow restrictor using my BRS 150 gpd 98% rejection membrane. I always use a bit of hot water in with the cold water so the input temperature is about 70 degrees. I just measured the good:waste and am getting 1:1.75. I previously measured the output of my 150 gpd membrane at about 120 gpd (tap produces 62 psi), and with the 75 gpd restrictor I am getting much faster output of good water. I should measure it. I am also still achieving 0 tds in the good water.
I am saving myself a TON in water, not only am I not using 3/4 of the water for waste, but the amount of time needed to make 50 gallons of water is significantly less.
I am currently manually flushing the membrane for about 1 minute every hour. I plan to get an auto flush kit in the near future.
I am interested to see how long the membrane lasts run in this manner. I tested the tds coming out of the membrane and will compare in a few months if the membrane lasts that long. Haha!
StirCrazy
05-21-2011, 11:50 PM
I always use a bit of hot water in with the cold water so the input temperature is about 70 degrees.
Ok so stop doing this, you are adding zink and other stuff to your water by using the hot water tank which may or may not be removed. also your water from a hot water tank that has some age behind it will be higher tds than the cold water.
Steve
Ok so stop doing this, you are adding zink and other stuff to your water by using the hot water tank which may or may not be removed. also your water from a hot water tank that has some age behind it will be higher tds than the cold water.
Steve
Yes thanks Steve, this I know. Zinc is only found in trace amounts in straight hot water even in old tanks. An RO unit will remove that trace amount. That trace amount is also diluted by only using a small amount of hot water with the cold water. The amount of wear on the membrane is much less significant compared to the amount of water saved by using slightly warmer water. I also start up the RO unit after having a shower, which will further dilute the amount of zinc in the water in the hot water tank.
I tested the tds of the hot water (before having a shower), and found it to actually be the same tds at the cold water.
You brought up a good point though, something that people should be aware of.
mike31154
05-22-2011, 01:42 AM
I used to coil a long section of the input tubing in a bucket warmed with a heater but found gain in production speed negligible using this method. Mentioned something along this line in one of my earlier posts, but might bear repeating - I've found my 75 gpd membrane takes the 210+ TDS tap water at 8 degrees C down to 0 TDS during the colder months. In the summer, once the water temp rises to 12-16 C thru the system, the best I get is 1 TDS after the membrane. Haven't had to replace the DI & I'm going on better than 2 years. Been keeping a record of throughput on an Excel spreadsheet since day 1 (April 2009) & so far have produced 322 gals RO & 1610 gals RODI. Sneaking up on 2000 gals total. I guess I prefer waiting a little longer for the water than speed it up with warmer water and lose TDS efficiency through the membrane.
I still get 0 tds after DI. I'm starting with 120-170 ppm though.
mike31154
05-22-2011, 02:57 AM
I get 0 after the DI as well no problem year round. Do you measure your TDS after the RO membrane at all? But I guess in the big picture, the difference between 1 & 0 TDS going into the DI stage is probably not worth worrying about.
lastlight
05-22-2011, 03:11 AM
Running a flush so often...aren't you almost running a 1/4" hose nearly unrestricted when doing this? So with all the flushing perhaps the waste ends up being much like it was before. Are you including the flushed water in your calculations Mindy?
I get 0 after the DI as well no problem year round. Do you measure your TDS after the RO membrane at all? But I guess in the big picture, the difference between 1 & 0 TDS going into the DI stage is probably not worth worrying about.
Ya I do, I change the RO membrane when it reaches 10 ppm. Right now it's at 2 ppm.
Running a flush so often...aren't you almost running a 1/4" hose nearly unrestricted when doing this? So with all the flushing perhaps the waste ends up being much like it was before. Are you including the flushed water in your calculations Mindy?
Yes. No. :D I have thought of this as well. I will measure and time myself flushing tomorrow, and calculate that in as well as proposed waste when using an auto flush. Before installing the 75 gpd restrictor I would manually flush the same as I am doing now so there isn't a change there for me.
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