Marine Ich help please

[dsaundry]

I am having a hell of a time with Marine Ich in my tank right now. I have had little bouts over the past 10 years but so long as the fish were eating and moving the always seemed to be fine in a few weeks. This latest bout has been going on for a number of weeks and the casualty list is growing. Other than copper treatments is there anything that you have found that will stop this thing cold. I havent seemed to find any sure fire things on the forums or the internet. Any suggestions. I don't have a qt tank anymore and according to a number of forums that isnt really an answer anyhow. Copper is out as the inverts and corals probably wouldnt make it. Water perameters are good. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Myka]

Is this a FOWLR?

If it is a FOWLR you can do hyposalinity in it for 6 weeks. Keep Prime and a salicylate ammonia test kit on hand in case some of the nitrifying bacteria die (causing ammonia spike). Most of the nitrifying bacteria should survive hyposalinity, but some people do experience significant troubles.

EDIT: Nevermind I see corals in there now. How many corals? Can you remove them for 6 weeks to a temporary tank?

[TimT]

Hi Darryl,

A UV sterilizer will help keep it in check.

Make sure there are no temperature fluctuations either.

Cheers,
Tim

[dsaundry]

Not a folr system unfortunately, I have a uv sterilizer but its only a 36w, I think I may have to go to a 72w from what I have been reading. The temp fluctuates between 78 and 82 depending on time of day. I cant keep the fluctuation any closer even with fans right now, maybe I will invest in a chiller.

[Myka]

Bump your heater up to 81 or 82 then. No point in letting it fall to 78 at night.

How big is your tank? Which return pump are you using? How is your UV plumbed (to the return?)?

[dsaundry]

Tank is a 140g, uv is plumbed into sump. Pump is a mag12. eventually going to an eheim1262.

[Myka]

Tank is a 140g, uv is plumbed into sump. Pump is a mag12. eventually going to an eheim1262.

A properly run UV should be plumbed inline with your return pump so that the water is treated in its entirety to be as effective as possible, but a 36w UV wouldn't be nearly intense enough to have 1000-1100 gph run through it and still provide protection from Ich. This is the trouble with UV...it would add too much heat to your tank to use a properly-sized UV plumbed properly into the tank. Kind of lose, lose on this one.

[Myka]

Here's some great information on UV sterilizers: http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=36805

[naesco]

Have you seriously tried the garlic method? In bouts with ich I have had 100% success.
I think many reefers who have not had success may be not be know how to use garlic so I will go into some detail.

1. Use Kent's garlic extreme or garlic extract from a health food store. I think some of the alternative products may not be concentrated enough to get the results.
2. Use dry foods. Frozen and moist foods simply cannot absorb enough garlic extreme into the food. The ides is to get as much garlic into the fish as possible.
3. Whether you are going to use flake, pellets or nori place the food in a saucer and squirt enough garlic extreme so that the food is completely soaked (It will take a few minutes for it to be soggy). Than feed it to your fish.
4. If you are feeding two or three times a day you are not getting enough garlic extract into the fish. Feed small amounts as often as you can. Your fish will tell you when they are full. The idea here is to get as much garlic into the fish as possible.
5. Feed only garlic soaked food. If you feed other food as well all you are doing is diluting the effect.

Within 48 hours you will see the effect with progressively less ich on the fish but it does not stop here because there is ich in the water and cysts lying on the bottom of the tank.

6. Continue feeding until all evidence of ich is gone and continue but less often for several weeks.
7. If it returns at the first sign start from no. 1 again. Observe the fish from it mouth along the body because sometimes it is difficult to see the spots unless you look lenghtwise along its body. Do not wait until the fish are overwhelmed with ich.

There will be less ich in the water if you do a water change but don't stress your fish.
There will be less ich if you use a suction hose to vacume the cysts that are lying on the sandbed before you do your water change. Also because ich is in the gills of the fish which you cannot see increase oxygen levels so the fish can 'breathe easier' by using bubblers and a powerhead just below the water leverl.

If you decide to try this. please post your observations daily and what you are doing (ie how often you are feeding etc.)
Good Luck

[Myka]

Good post naesco. I feed garlic regularly (as well as a high-quality varied diet), don't use a UV, and haven't had an Ich outbreak in my reefs in well over a decade. I think in 10 years there has to be something more than just luck...?

[dsaundry]

I actually do use garlic, have to use it with some frozen as well as pellets, I havent run into ich this stubborn or severe before. the count is 2 tangs, 2 clowns, 2 damsels, and I am watching one other clown who isn't looking very well.

[Madreefer]

5 years ago I lost all of the fish in my tank due to ich. I'm with Naesco and Myka on the garlic. I use about 4 drops of Kent Garlic Extreme on every "supper" feedings and have never seen ich again.

[Myka]

Well, your options are:

a) Remove corals and inverts and treat the fish and live rock with hyposalinity for 6 weeks.
b) Remove fish to a quarantine tank to treat for 6 weeks.
c) Use a "reef-safe" Ich cure (none are overly effective, or at least not for everyone).
d) Employ a much larger UV sterilizer.
e) Try to incorporate more garlic to a more varied diet.

[dsaundry]

I think I will increase garlic and cross fingers...all I can really do at this time I think.:cry:

[TimT]

HI Darryl,

How old is the bulb in the UV? If over a year replace it. I would then place a fluval 302 into the tank and run the water through the UV and then back into tank.

Myka's advice on raising temp is good. Just as long as the tank doesnt go to 85 during the day.

Cheers,
Tim

[dsaundry]

uv bulb only a couple of months old, temp usually will stay at 80 but can go a degree or 2 within that. Usually very stable. Will see what happens over the next few days.

[Myka]

If you were closer I would lend you a spare 55w UV sterilizer I have sitting in the corner. Run them in-line and that extra kick might be enough. Know anyone with a UV they could lend you?

[fishytime]

Im probably gonna pi$$ off some people with this but......oh well:mrgreen:.....there is absolutely no scientific evidence that says garlic is in anyway medicinal to fish.....these claims are purely anecdotal....... http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f110/garlic-the-science-and-the-madness-14807.html .......if you still feel that garlic is the magic cure all for ick than fresh garlic is the only way to go......garlic extreme and garlic extract are useless http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/wiki/medicinal-or-supplement-fresh-garlic-in-fish-food ....... in fact un-scientific tests have suggested that prolonged feeding of garlic may cause liver damage in fish http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1874623.......

[naesco]

Im probably gonna pi$$ off some people with this but......oh well:mrgreen:.....there is absolutely no scientific evidence that says garlic is in anyway medicinal to fish.....these claims are purely anecdotal....... http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f110/garlic-the-science-and-the-madness-14807.html .......if you still feel that garlic is the magic cure all for ick than fresh garlic is the only way to go......garlic extreme and garlic extract are useless http://forums.saltwaterfish.com/wiki/medicinal-or-supplement-fresh-garlic-in-fish-food ....... in fact un-scientific tests have suggested that prolonged feeding of garlic may cause liver damage in fish http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1874623.......

I read the references you quoted.
The first reference is over 8 years old.
The second article does not mention garlic extreme. Garlic extract is concentrated garlic and would be much stronger than than garlic juice.
The third article talks about possible problems with prolonged use. I am not suggesting prolonged use of garlic.

This reefers fish are dying and he is seeking help. Based on my personal experience I have been successful in defeating ich as detailed in my earlier post.

[Myka]

there is absolutely no scientific evidence that says garlic is in anyway medicinal to fish

The ornamental marine hobby isn't supported by a whole lot of scientific evidence as a whole. I'm not sure if your claim is accurate or not, but garlic works for me. :wink:

[TimT]

I agree.

I eat a lot of Garlic but still get bitten by mosquitoes. ;)

[fishytime]

I read the references you quoted.
The first reference is over 8 years old.
The second article does not mention garlic extreme. Garlic extract is concentrated garlic and would be much stronger than than garlic juice.
The third article talks about possible problems with prolonged use. I am not suggesting prolonged use of garlic.



obviously not closely enough
your point about the article being eight years old is?
it doesnt matter what bottled garlic you..... use the ingredient in garlic(allicin) that gives it its "medicinal/magical" properties breaks down very quickly rendering any bottled garlic basically nothing more than a garlicy smelling juice
Mindy suggested prolonged use

[RD]

Actually there are numerous scientific studies that has come out over the past decade, but most if not all of these studies with garlic involve freshwater species. I would imagine that it's a matter of funding, and/or importance in the marine area, but some groups in the freshwater sector are taking a very strong look at garlics potential, and the results are no longer just anecdotal.

Also, while allicin is the main active ingredient found in garlic, it is only one sulphur compound amongst many compounds & enzymes found in Allium sativum, and it would be more than just a bit presumptuous at this stage of the research taking place in this area to believe that allicin is the only active compound that has any health benefits associated with its use in aquaculture. There is much more involved with regards to the bioactive components in garlic, than just allicin.

Some of the studies that I've read actually involved garlic powder, and yet yielded some very positive results. In most of the aquaculture studies that I am aware of the garlic that was used was not fresh, or a derivative was used.

The only studies I'm aware of that involved liver damage speculation, or any type of short or long term health risk to a marine or freshwater fish, involved the pure form of allicin fed at elevated levels. I discussed one such study in detail with one of the research scientists involved with a study that took place a couple of years ago in the UK. Unfortunately he couldn't see beyond his PhD.

On the other side of the coin I have seen scores of marine species consume pellet feed that contained garlic at a low inclusion rate, on a daily basis for close to 15 yrs, with no negative health issues whatsoever.


While the research & studies posted below don't involve the marine species that members here might keep in their tanks, I don't think that it's a huge leap of faith to extrapolate at least some of this information to marine species.



A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus).

Fish Hatchery and Reproductive Physiology Department, Central Laboratory for Aquaculture Research, Abbassa, Abo-Hammad, Sharkia, Egypt

J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196


http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1678-91992006000200003&lng=en&nrm=iso



While the document linked to above is a very long read, in the end the authors state:

Finally, from the obtained results it could be recommended that garlic (Allium Sativum) may be used as a growth promoter and antibiotic for the treatment or prevention of diseases and for enhancing fish tolerance to environmental stress (62); therefore garlic powder should be added to the diet of freshwater fish.

In this particular study the inclusion of garlic at a rate of 3% (via garlic powder) has shown to increase the overall digestibility of protein, carbohydrates, and fat (ie; better growth), as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, and water column.





In Norway, the Austevoll Aquaculture Research Station has studied the use of garlic as a natural biocide against sea lice, with positive results.
http://www.onefish.org/servlet/CDSServlet?status=ND0zODEzMi50b3JsaWJJUEUzMjg5NiY2 PWVuJjMzPWRvY3VtZW50cyYzNz1pbmZv



There are other studies that have also shown very positive results in using garlic as a more natural way to control various pathogens.


Effect of Allium sativum on the immunity and survival of Labeo rohita infected with Aeromonas hydrophila
S. Sahu, B. K. Das, B. K. Mishra, J. Pradhan and N. Sarangi

Aquatic Animal Health Division, Central Institute of Freshwater Aquaculture, Kausalyaganga, Bhubaneswar, India

Journal of Applied Ichthyology, Volume 23 Issue 1, Pages 80 - 86

Summary


The aim of this study was to evaluate dietary dosages of garlic on the immune response and disease resistance against infections due to the opportunistic pathogen Aeromonas hydrophila in Labeo rohita fingerlings. Garlic, Allium sativum, was incorporated into the diets (0%, 0.1%, 0.5% and 1.0%) of rohu, L. rohita fingerlings (10 ± 2 g). Every 20 days, different biochemical (serum total protein, albumin, globulin, albumin : globulin ratio, blood glucose), haematological (WBC, RBC and haemoglobin content) and immunological (superoxide anion production, lysozyme activity and serum bactericidal activity) parameters were evaluated. Superoxide anion production, lysozyme, serum bactericidal, serum protein and albumin were enhanced in garlic treated groups compared with the control group. After 60 days, fish were challenged with A. hydrophila and mortality (%) was recorded up to day 10 post-challenge. Survival decreased in control group (57%) up to day 10 after infection. However, this was increased in the garlic treatment group, i.e. 85% survivability in the 1 g garlic kg−1 (B group) and 5 g garlic kg−1 (C group), and 71% survivability in the 10 g garlic kg−1 (D group), respectively. These results indicate that Allium sativum stimulates the immunity and makes L. rohita more resistant to infection by A. hydrophila.


And another ..............


EFFECT OF GARLIC ON THE SURVIVAL, GROWTH, RESISTANCE AND QUALITY OF OREOCHROMIS NILOTICUS

Salah Mesalhy Aly, Nashwa Mahmoud Abdel Atti* and Mohamed Fathi Mohamed

The WorldFish Center, Research Center for Africa & West Asia, Abbassa, Sharkia, Egypt. Dept of Food Hygiene, Animal Health Research Institute, Ismailia Laboratory, Egypt.

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ISTA8/FinalPapers/Growth%20pdf/22%20salah%20Meselhy.pdf




In Israel, researchers from the Ben Gurion University aquaculture dept. are also experimenting with allicen, the active ingredient in garlic, for its anti-bacterial properties.
http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/Articles/Column/f0208f4ab52f8010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0



No doubt there are many more studies that have or currently are taking place within the aquatic industry, the examples above are just a few that I am aware of.



HTH

[Leah]

Very interesting! Glad you posted RD

[naesco]

Thanks RD for the research information.

[RD]

Glad to help.

While garlic may not be a silver bullet, especially in regards to curing marine ich, I think that at this point it's safe to say that Allium sativum does in fact contain bioactive compounds that have been proven to have a probiotic effect on fish. This is no longer a case of just anecdotal evidence. Some of these compounds have been shown to have biological effects in fish such as growth promotion, immunostimulation, anti-stress, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-virals, and appetite stimulators.

Would these bioactive compounds assist a sick fish in fighting off disease, or help prevent disease from taking a foothold to begin with? IMHO, absolutely, no question about it. Personally I don't need to have anyone in a white lab coat spend the next 50 yrs testing each & every aquatic organism on the planet to be able to accept this as fact.

[paddyob]

your point about the article being eight years old is?


I think his point is that the research is 8 years old and that science 8 years ago may not be as accurate. I thought his point was clear without explanation needed.

Is this correct Naesco?

Science has been proven wrong before. Many times. And most of the time, the research disputed, well, its old. Go figure?

I would agree with him on this garlic issue. This same dispute has been going on for a long time. It seems many people have had great success, so no reason slam it just because some have not had the same success.

Garlic cleared a small Ich outbreak I had. GO GARLIC!!!!

[paddyob]

Glad to help.

While garlic may not be a silver bullet, especially in regards to curing marine ich, I think that at this point it's safe to say that Allium sativum does in fact contain bioactive compounds that have been proven to have a probiotic effect on fish. This is no longer a case of just anecdotal evidence. Some of these compounds have been shown to have biological effects in fish such as growth promotion, immunostimulation, anti-stress, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-virals, and appetite stimulators.

Would these bioactive compounds assist a sick fish in fighting off disease, or help prevent disease from taking a foothold to begin with? IMHO, absolutely, no question about it. Personally I don't need to have anyone in a white lab coat spend the next 50 yrs testing each & every aquatic organism on the planet to be able to accept this as fact.


Nice post.

[Myka]

Mindy suggested prolonged use

Just to clear up this "accusation"... :lol: I have used garlic regularly for over a decade, but not like naesco was describing like super garlic soak. I just add a drop of Garlic Extreme to frozen foods. I thaw 4 cubes of frozen foods (50% PE mysis, 25% some marine mix with nori in it, 25% chopped seafood),drain, then add 6 drops Selcon and 1 drop Garlic Extreme. I then add a couple ounces of fresh saltwater. I keep this concoction in the fridge until it is used up...usually about 3 days. Sometimes I leave out the garlic, sometimes I leave out the Selcon, sometimes I leave out both.

[amy]

I used something called Herbtana a while ago. Claims to be herbal (but god only knows what else is in it)
It recommends a ten day treatment. It says to turn off your skimmer, I thought just for an hour or two after dosage but on day two it started to bubble over so I left it off. I continued to dose until day 6 where I stopped, ick (on my regal tang) appeared to be gone and I was really anxious to turn my skimmer back on. The ick hasn't returned thus far, and my corals or inverts never showed any sign of discomfort.
Might be worth looking into, or hearing some more opinions on.

[dsaundry]

3 more fish gone this weekend:cry: I am hoping this is getting to the end, I only have 7 fish left. If I lose all of them I will keep tank as coral only for a minimum of 6-8 months before I even consider adding any more, this really freakin{not the word I am really using}sucks!:sad:

[fishytime]

sorry to hear this mang...are the remaining fish showing signs of ick.....are they still eating?....I know you said you dont have a QT but you could always buy a cheap rubbermaid bin and use that for a hospital tank to treat the fish......borrow if you need to, a heater and powerhead and do lots and lots and lots of water changes for 6-8 weeks to ensure the display is "ickless"........

[VFX]

Hey Darryl

Sorry to hear. My hospital tank is yours for as long as you need if you want it.

.

[naesco]

3 more fish gone this weekend:cry: I am hoping this is getting to the end, I only have 7 fish left. If I lose all of them I will keep tank as coral only for a minimum of 6-8 months before I even consider adding any more, this really freakin{not the word I am really using}sucks!:sad:

Death from ich happens as follows.

Left unattended, the ich parasite attacks the gills of the fish. They mulitiply and it is obvious as ich spots are all over the body of the fish. Because of the ich, the fish is unable to breath and gasps for air and slowly it begins the drown and falls on its side to the bottom of the tank and dies.

What steps have you taken since you asked for advice Daryl? Have you lowered the salinity, placed the fish in a @T and medicated hem, or started the garlic regimen?

[Skimmerking]

Well I was always told and read that ICk will drop off the fish and stay on of the tanks bottom. Continueing using ick is great, however it will stop your skimmer for up to 8hrs and using it all the time will cause your tank to not able to have the skimmer online. However having said that Ozone to keep it in check and something to whip away the Nitrates then you are good to go.

[amy]

3 more fish gone this weekend:cry: I am hoping this is getting to the end, I only have 7 fish left. If I lose all of them I will keep tank as coral only for a minimum of 6-8 months before I even consider adding any more, this really freakin{not the word I am really using}sucks!:sad:

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss :(

[dsaundry]

Death from ich happens as follows.

Left unattended, the ich parasite attacks the gills of the fish. They mulitiply and it is obvious as ich spots are all over the body of the fish. Because of the ich, the fish is unable to breath and gasps for air and slowly it begins the drown and falls on its side to the bottom of the tank and dies.




What steps have you taken since you asked for advice Daryl? Have you lowered the salinity, placed the fish in a @T and medicated hem, or started the garlic regimen?


They have always been on garlic, no qt tank set up yet. and salinity adjustment not a viable solution without killing corals. Been doing this over 10 yrs and have never had this issue ever this severe.

[paddyob]

Bad deal.


Cleaner shrimp help at all?

[fishytime]

I'll ask again.....are the remaining fish showing signs of ick (spots/labored breathing/ flashing)?.....are they eating?...how many fish have you lost?
.... what size tank is this and how much live rock is in it?..... what are your nitrates at?......


Ive got stuff to say about, and I can pretty much pick apart every article RD posted..... I will do that later.....first we need to help Darryl,s fish, who BTW have "always been on garlic" and still had a bad outbreak of ick.....hmmmmmmmm.......go figure????

[daniella3d]

Well it must work..think about it, you've never been bitten by a vampire right?

In my case, it never worked for any of my fish with ick, either fresh or garlic extract for fish.


I agree.

I eat a lot of Garlic but still get bitten by mosquitoes. ;)

[dsaundry]

Yes I have cleaner shrimp, as for fish remaining 2 still look suspect, Niger Trigger and Copper Band, the 3 chromis are doing great, I small black angel appears ok, 2 wrasses seem ok and 1 gs maroon seems ok, lost one more clown earlier this am., Nitrates are a bit high as there are some corpses I havent been able to account for. Did a partial water change again yesterday, nitrates are reading about 30ppm. I think all I can really do right now is water changes and montor water conditions and feed. I cannot tear down this tank to try to catch remaining fish. I suppose if I want to sacrifice inverts I could treat with copper but that really isn't an option for me at this point. Thanks for all the suggestions and support from everybody.

Oh and the fatality count is 10 if I have counted correctly

[RD]

Sorry to hear about your fish, I'm sure that you're doing everything that you can.




Ive got stuff to say about, and I can pretty much pick apart every article RD posted..... I will do that later.....first we need to help Darryl,s fish, who BTW have "always been on garlic" and still had a bad outbreak of ick.....hmmmmmmmm.......go figure????

Just so there's no further confusion on your part, I have never once suggested that garlic can eradicate marine ich. Not in this discussion, or any other. I simply responded to your personal opinion & provided some clear & concise proof that garlic does contain various bioactive compounds that can play a role in the immune response of fish, just as many other nutrients can, including vitamin c. I can't think of a single expert in the field of fish nutrition & health that would argue that point.

[dsaundry]

Ok people, the tank has been on the recovery trail since I first posted and it is really looking good again. two wrasse's, one gs maroon clown, two indestructible chromis were the only survivors as far as the fish went. They look really happy and healthy. The pod population is very healthy and the corals look great. I went through an algae bloom as well.:cry: But it seems all the corals for the most part made it through. This was without a doubt the worst crash{s} I have ever had and I hope I never go through it again. As some of you know my tank at work had a power bar fail and I lost all my fish there too. Most of the corals went to my tank at home{in a major hurry/panic} and are doing fine. I do wonder though if it was coincidence or something I may have done when I brought the corals from work home and introduced them into the tank when the one at work crashed. As I have said previously I have had bouts with ich before but never this severe. As I have gone over this CSI style I believe I may have caused this by introducing all the corals from the other tank so rapidly. The water perameters may have been stressed with all the chemicals and this may have affected the fish and their abilities to fend off the ich. I am only speculating as I did not change anything else and at the time was only having a minor algae issue on a couple of small rocks. I would be interested in any thoughts you all might have about this. But for now although its a long way from totm material I am happy with the recovery so far. I will try to post some pics soon.

[Gripenfelter]

I had 2 bad ich breakouts. The first one was after adding a powder blue. The second one after getting live rock from someone who had ich in his tank.

Here's what I did/tried.

1) Kick Ich during first breakout. Only helped the stronger more resilient fish. No discernable effect on more susceptible fish like the Powder Blue or my Regal Tang. Seemed to only knock the ich back a bit but didn't get rid of it. Dosed with 2 big bottles for twice as long as recommended and even double dosed. No help. Powder Blue died.

2) During first break out I moved the Regal Tang to a quarantine tank and treated with Cupramine for 10 days. Ich cured. Obviously still present in display tank but Regal built up a good immunity to it.

3) Second break out. Killed a Royal Gramma and Sohal Tang. Treated Sohal with Cupramine but it still died. Decided not to dose the display tank with any other non-copper based meds. Regal Tang still had bad ich from new live rock from ich infested tank. Sailfin tang had a wee bit of ich. Soaked all food in Selcon and garlic extract and Vitamin C. Added an 18W UV sterilizer. Ich SLOWLY started disappearing. Been 6 weeks now and my Regal Tang has never looked healthier. No spots of ich...EVER now. Used to always have one or two spots.

UV sterilizer does not cure ich but it helps prevent a re-infection. All fish are sparkiling clean and haven't been healthier.

[megs_clark]

I swear by garlic also for ich outbreaks and was curiouse if using garlic all the time meaning steady daily use could lead to a build up of immunity in the parisite? Super ich. Like a kid who had to much antibiotics or meds type of thing and develops a super bug immune to typical antibiotics?

Glad your fish are better!!

[Gripenfelter]

I wouldn't give your fish garlic all the time. It's not good for their kidneys.

[chandigz]

I swear by garlic too but at a rate of 1-2 cloves of really fresh, crunched garlic per 10 gallons floating in a mesh bag in the sump. Replaced every 3 days. People think I'm nuts but it seems to work for me.