Looking for info on this cool starfish...

[ScubaSteve]

This isn't my usual style but yesterday I bought a starfish with only an approximate guess on the species and a gut feeling. Normally I research the heck out of things before they go in my tank but this guy was too cool to pass up and, well, I'm up for a little challenge (see pics from net below).

I've so far been able to ID it as Neoferdina sp., most likely N. offreti. Turns out they're fairly uncommon and more so in the aquarium trade, hence the lack of information readily available. I'm trying to find info on this guy as to his behavior and diet. I'm expecting someone to come back saying "Will eat every living thing in your tank" but based on his physical traits I have a feeling that he'll be somewhat similar to Fromia sp.

Anyone out there able to give a hand on this one?

http://www.starfish.ch/Fotos/echinoderms-Stachelhauter/starfish-Seesterne/Neoferdina-offreti1.jpg
http://www.starfish.ch/Fotos/echinoderms-Stachelhauter/starfish-Seesterne/Neoferdina-offreti.jpg

[ALang]

Cute!

[ScubaSteve]

Hehehehe... That it is. But so were those fuzzy little guys in the movie 'Gremlins' and, well, we saw how well that panned out for them. I've long learned that cute and colorful does not imply reef safe, in fact the opposite. We'll have to see whether this guy is "I'm gonna eat all your coral" cute or not.

[Delphinus]

You've probably already seen this but this photo too good not to share. 2rd or 3rd hit hit after googling your guess at a species came up with this..

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1132/1128546581_7733cc234c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ben-naden/1128546581/)

FWIW, I always thought stars fit into two categories: 1) We don't know what they eat but presume it's bacteria, slime, or algal films, or, 2) They're predatory.

Those in category 1 are things like Fromia, Linckia, etc. and amongt those, some will adapt to other forms of nutrition and do OK in tanks, and some won't. Those in category 2 are things like chocolate chip stars, and I thought that the little bumps in the texture were artifacts of their muscles used to help capture or ingest their prey.

So my guess is your corals are safe since we don't see the tell tale marks of it being a predatory star ... and that whether it adapts long-term to captivity is a guess but should theoretically stand the same changes of survival as Linckia's and Fromia's.

But just my guess. :)

[Myka]

I think you're bang on Tony. Although, I see this starfish's chance of survival rather more bleak than Tony suggests.

[toytech]

Very nice looking star, i can understand why you bought it . Hope it turns out well for you .

[reeferious]

i want one like it where did you buy it from PLEASE

[ScubaSteve]

After looking into it more I think it's a Neoferdina glyptodisca... Eats detritus and small inverts aparently. So, I believe it's reef safe.

I got it from OA. They had a pair of them and still have one more. They think they're linkia, I knew otherwise.

I think you're bang on Tony. Although, I see this starfish's chance of survival rather more bleak than Tony suggests.

I completely agree with you here. I think this guy is going to be a total crap shoot. He seems to be struggling a little bit but hasn't done the "I'm an unhappy starfish do I'm going to explode" thing yet, so that's a good sign. I figured he was super neat and rare and he was either doing to parish at the LFS or I was going to take him home, do my homework, figure out what he needs and see if I can achieve long term survival. It was scooting about this morning but has remained inthe same area and not travelled to far, which to my understanding, is a fairly common response from starfish in new aquariums.

[MMAX]

What did you pay for it if you don't mind me asking?

[Myka]

I completely agree with you here. I think this guy is going to be a total crap shoot. [...] I figured he was super neat and rare and he was either doing to parish at the LFS or I was going to take him home, do my homework, figure out what he needs and see if I can achieve long term survival.

The trouble with that approach is that the LFS will bring more in because they sold. Maybe not this particular starfish as it may have been a mis-ID even from the supplier. When an LFS sells an animal quickly, they want to bring more of that animal in. I would rather see these animals die at the LFS because then the LFS wouldn't be so quick to want to order it again.

It takes a person trying to achieve success, though many more are sure to die in the process. People want to try to figure an animal out, but in the end they really don't provide anything special compared to the next Joe Reefer.

i want one like it where did you buy it from PLEASE

Please read this: Echinoderms in Aquaria (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rs/index.php) by Ronald L. Shimek

[naesco]

Myka is right. By purchasing an impossible to keep species all reefers do is to encourage LFS to bring in more that end up dieing in our tanks.

The starfish pictured is likely a neoferdia glyptodisca.
It lives at 33 meters so, if you have a cool very dim reef set up you might meet this requirement.
Nothing is known about it feeding requirements.

[ScubaSteve]

The trouble with that approach is that the LFS will bring more in because they sold. Maybe not this particular starfish as it may have been a mis-ID even from the supplier. When an LFS sells an animal quickly, they want to bring more of that animal in. I would rather see these animals die at the LFS because then the LFS wouldn't be so quick to want to order it again.

It takes a person trying to achieve success, though many more are sure to die in the process. People want to try to figure an animal out, but in the end they really don't provide anything special compared to the next Joe Reefer.

Right, I do agree with you and I'm not about to start a debate on the ethics of this hobby, the collectors and the LFS that sells the stuff. Before everyone gets on their ethics high horse, it was a miss ID sent to the LFS. They ordered Linkia, they were sent "linkia" and they didn't know what to call it other than linkia, so they were selling it as a linkia. I was feeling him out to see if he actually new what he had; he thought it was linkia, I knew otherwise. In a situation like this I am more inclined to purchase it from the LFS and give it a fighting chance. Me buying or not buying a miss ID isn't going to stop another miss ID; if I go to Indo and show the collectors the differences between the species, then maybe I could do something there. About 95% of my livestock is aquacultured because I don't believe in collecting from the reefs; I too would rather let them lose money on wild caught livestock until they start changing to aquacultured livestock (then again, I'm also quite uneasy with watching them die when I know I can raise it successfully).

Unlike other average Joe Reefers, I AM willing to go to lengths to try and achieve success with it. Not saying that I am more special than anyone else who may have tried keeping this species but then again most Joe reefers haven't spent the past few nights going through scientific journals looking for info and having his marine biologist friend who specializes in enchinoderms come over to help suss out a plan. Being a university researcher I have access to a few more resources than your average reefer, and I'm trying to use them and do my best to learn more about a creature that hasn't even been studied much. But in my opinion, no book will ever come close to personal experience...

What I was looking for around here was to see if anyone else had stumbled on this species before and could provide a little more information than my reference books, not the usual forum attack and lecture about ethics and the LFS. Success with any species is incremental, I was hoping someone might have had an experience that I could build on.

Sorry to come off blunt, rude or angry... I'm not, nor is this particularly directed at you. I'm just getting frustrated with the usual negative responses on CanReef and other online forums (which I myself have given as well) when I was looking for positive support and a "let's try to figure this out together". We've all heard this lecture a number of times before; I want to move past that and try to actually learn something positive so that we can at least try to find ways of improving the success of certain species.

Myka is right. By purchasing an impossible to keep species all reefers do is to encourage LFS to bring in more that end up dieing in our tanks.

The starfish pictured is likely a neoferdia glyptodisca.
It lives at 33 meters so, if you have a cool very dim reef set up you might meet this requirement.
Nothing is known about it feeding requirements.

Naesco, thanks for the help. The pictures I posted were not mine but pics online of what was ID'd as N. offreti. I think that ID is off personally. Mine is a toughy. It is somewhere between N. offreti and N. glyptodisca and I'm leaning more towards the latter.

From my discussions with the marine biologist, we think the temperature range of my tank is OK for this species and I agree with you that it prefers darker regions. This is obvious as it scoots into shaded areas when the main light comes on. I have a set up that gives large, open dark areas and I've moved it to these areas and it is certainly more active. My friend thinks that this one will likely be able to adapt to the varied lighting conditions given enough time. He's had a few deepwater species that he's acclimated to halides in only a few weeks.

I'm still trying a number of foods and seeing which get a feeding response. Funny enough, it seems to show some response to AcanPlus... I swear this stuff is becoming a miracle food. Seems to like the funk that grows on my glass and the jury is out on pods. I was able to catch some REALLY tiny pods last night with a syringe, flash froze them and then thawed them (easier to handle when dead... too fast alive). There was a feeding response but not like I was expecting... but that may have been due to my F***ing cleaner shrimp loosing their poo and poking at everything because there was food in the tank. So far, I think the best response comes from bacterial mulm.

So the only trick now is to see if I can keep it eating and healthy.

What did you pay for it if you don't mind me asking?

Uhhh... I think it was $20... basically they sold it for the same what they would sell a linkia.

[naesco]

If you post an actual pic of it I may be able to help identify it or I can post the names of 6 similar to the N. glyptodisca
Wayne

[Myka]

ScubaSteve, there are newbies coming to these forums all the time. The lesson always has to be repeated. As much as you find it irritating to get responses like that, there are many who find it irritating that people continue to buy "difficult" or "expert" animals with little regard to the animals' requirements (if they are even known).

I'm glad to hear you're putting a little extra effort into gaining information on the starfish, and trying to find a feeding response. It sounds like you actually care about the survival of the animal. That's one step in the right direction. I hope you find a breakthrough because even Linckia starfish have very poor long-term survival rates.

[gobytron]

ScubaSteve, there are newbies coming to these forums all the time. The lesson always has to be repeated. As much as you find it irritating to get responses like that, there are many who find it irritating that people continue to buy "difficult" or "expert" animals with little regard to the animals' requirements (if they are even known).

I'm glad to hear you're putting a little extra effort into gaining information on the starfish, and trying to find a feeding response. It sounds like you actually care about the survival of the animal. That's one step in the right direction. I hope you find a breakthrough because even Linckia starfish have very poor long-term survival rates.

Seriously guys...
If none of us ever bought anything to do with this hobby, there would be no issues whatsoever.

You are only splitting hairs from your high horses.

We are all equally guilty and nobody should feel more responsible than anyone else unless you dont own an aquarium at all and enjoy the hobby from watching tv or going out into the depths to explore them for yourself.

[ScubaSteve]

If you post an actual pic of it I may be able to help identify it or I can post the names of 6 similar to the N. glyptodisca
Wayne

I'm tryin'. He likes to hang out in a position where I can only see his underside, which isn't much help. When it moves to the rock work I'll try to get a pick. I does look almost exactly like the picks I posted (but more intense purple. Those pics by the way I think are actually N. glyptodisca and not N. offreti.

ScubaSteve, there are newbies coming to these forums all the time. The lesson always has to be repeated. As much as you find it irritating to get responses like that, there are many who find it irritating that people continue to buy "difficult" or "expert" animals with little regard to the animals' requirements (if they are even known).

I'm glad to hear you're putting a little extra effort into gaining information on the starfish, and trying to find a feeding response. It sounds like you actually care about the survival of the animal. That's one step in the right direction. I hope you find a breakthrough because even Linckia starfish have very poor long-term survival rates.

Ya, I get that. But then again, I'm far from being a newbie. I might not have 7,000 Canreef posts but I do know my s***. Bare in mind that other "newbies" around here might be the same.

Again, not trying to pick a fight or be a dick, just sayin'.

Then again, as this is a completely new species to me, I am a newbie in that regards and I am needing help. If you have any advice for survival of linkia and fromia that could pass on to me, that'd be awesome!

Seriously guys...
If none of us ever bought anything to do with this hobby, there would be no issues whatsoever.

You are only splitting hairs from your high horses.

We are all equally guilty and nobody should feel more responsible than anyone else unless you dont own an aquarium at all and enjoy the hobby from watching tv or going out into the depths to explore them for yourself.

I agree. And also, the only way we have ever learned to keep any species is by trying and learning. Th first big step was when we figured out how to keep SPS. The for years people said that you couldn't do mandarins; we started doing mandarins. Then they said you couldn't do mandarins in nanos; again, that's been proven wrong. Heck, look at Azoox tanks where people are keeping Dendronephthya successfully, and I remember someone long again saying we'd never be able to keep them.

We just need people to not blindly buy livestock and have it waste away; we need people who buy them and learn over time what it takes to keep them until we are successful.

[naesco]

Firstly, check out Fromia nadosa which is similar but purpole

Secondly, let's be honest, the people who are buying these impossible to keep species are not buying them to advance the knowledge of care of the species in captivity. They are buying them because they are pretty.

Advances are being made by marine biologists and advanced reefers who have the experience and the equipment to work towards success.

[Myka]

ScubaSteve, number of posts is quite the crap shoot at determining a person's knowledge. In no way did I suggest you were a newbie, and I definitely would not that notion from the number of posts you have. I didn't notice how many posts you have, and couldn't care less.

I would suggest if you're really interested in learning about this specie of starfish, and you really want to give it your very best efforts that you contact an expert in the field, not a bunch of "randoms" on a public forum. Maybe send an email to Ronald Shimek or pick someone else who has written articles or books on Echinoderms? When I have "high-tech" questions I don't ask them on these forums. Sometimes I do send PMs to people that I know are knowledgeable in the area though.

Firstly, check out Fromia nadosa which is similar but purpole

Secondly, let's be honest, the people who are buying these impossible to keep species are not buying them to advance the knowledge of care of the species in captivity. They are buying them because they are pretty.

Advances are being made by marine biologists and advanced reefers who have the experience and the equipment to work towards success.

Well said. Bravo.

[toytech]

Some times LFS bring in stupid s*** and i think the responsible thing to do if you can is to take a crack at it and try and save whatever it is . No LFS is gonna say " oh this is really hard to keep i better send it back " .So good on ya for trying ,we wont make any advances in this hobby if nobody tried to keep difficult species , we would all have tanks full of damsels and plastic corals if people didn't try new things . Ill put it out there i have a mandarin in a 15 gal , i bought it specifically for that tank even though it should be in a big tank , now it eats frozen and get fatter all the time . But enough about all that , I'm very interested in you feeding techniques do you just squirt the food at the star and see if it moves for the food or is there more to it than that ?

[ScubaSteve]

ScubaSteve, number of posts is quite the crap shoot at determining a person's knowledge. In no way did I suggest you were a newbie, and I definitely would not that notion from the number of posts you have. I didn't notice how many posts you have, and couldn't care less.

I would suggest if you're really interested in learning about this specie of starfish, and you really want to give it your very best efforts that you contact an expert in the field, not a bunch of "randoms" on a public forum. Maybe send an email to Ronald Shimek or pick someone else who has written articles or books on Echinoderms? When I have "high-tech" questions I don't ask them on these forums. Sometimes I do send PMs to people that I know are knowledgeable in the area though.



I apologize Myka. I was not trying to be insulting or offensive, I just get frustrated with the negative responses we tend to get around here sometimes and so was a bit edgy. Didn't mean to come across that way.

I have actually contacted a few experts, one of which is my friend who is specializing in enchinoderms. I will actually email Shimek on your suggestion. I'm curious as to what he has to say.

And I don't consider many people here as randoms; I think many of you are experts in your own right, especially you. You don't know it but I do hold your opinion in high regard and have followed advice that I have seen you give a number of times. My friend actually suggested checking forums such as this because Neoferdina is not widely studied by researchers, but if an LFS accidentally got the one that I bought, then it is likely that others have got Neoferdina by accident before as well. Collectively we have a far greater turn over of livestock than most researchers, so I was hoping that maybe at least one person around here might have come across one before.

Any experience, even "it died right away" or "it ate all my ______", is all useful to me.

So... apologies and ranting aside I do have some happy news. The starfish has survived at least one week and has posed in a good position long enough for me to take a picture. I have also begun to figure out what it might like to eat. Give me a couple of weeks and hopefully I can report back on that.

My iPhone makes the picture really blue but the colours are actually as they appear. This is under my halide (14K) and actinics and has not gone through photoshop.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad114/Nergetic/017-1.jpg

[ALang]

Scubasteve, keep this up and let us know what you've found out about this so very cute starfish!!
Interesting about AcanPlus as possible food for it. Great to know that, too.