Hospital tank set up advice, please comment on plan

[Delphinus]

Well, the time has come that I have to admit that I need to treat some fish I have. Quick summary: in January I moved most of the fish out of my 115g cube into my new tank. I left behind two butterfly fish. The stress of the chasing of fish seemed to give the butterflies themselves a case of ich. 3-4 months later now, it is clear that it is not going to go away and it's bad enough that I think they need to be specifically treated.

It's very frustrating. They eat like pigs, which must be a good sign, but the spots are just getting worse every week.

So .. I have a 20g tank that I have kept for just this scenario. I've just never had cause to actually set up a hospital tank (I did once try on some newly purchased fish, I tried to QT them, then I tried to hyposalinity them but they all died. So I've been very gun shy to try this again.)

Anyhow.

I also have an Aquaclear 300. I will put the Aquaclear with sponge on the 115g tank tonight and let it run to cycle the sponge.

How long should I let it seed on the main tank? 24 hours? Or longer?

When the Aquaclear is seeded well enough, I will fill the 20g with 100% tank water from the main tank and move the Aquaclear over.

Once I begin treatment (and I haven't quite decided if I should do hyposalinity or Cupramine, any thoughts on this?), do I need to do daily water changes to keep the ammonia in check?

I don't have an ammonia test kit. Should I get one? Or just do daily water changes?

How big of water changes once treatment begins? 100%? 50%? 25%? Every day? Every 2nd day?

Any advice appreciated, thank you!

[Gooly001]

Hi Tony,

I wouldn't recommend using the aquaclear because the intake is quite strong and any weak fish will get stuck to it; further stressing it out and doing more harm then good. Also, even if you had a biological colony culture on the foam, most medications that you use to treat for disease will kill of the culture, rendering it useless as filteration.

I'd recommend to do regular water changes every other day to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels down instead.

In our experience, tangs and butterflies do not take well to fresh water dips and extremely low levels of hypo.

We use a combination of low level salinity of 1.018 and chelated copper to attack the ich. With chelated copper (Cupramine) we use half the dosage recommended as the tangs are butterflies are very sensitive to copper. You can use API copper test kits to monitor the levels.

As long at the fish are eating during this process, I find that they kick the ick within a few days to a week of treatment. However, due to the life cycle a few weeks in quarintine would be recommended where by the salinity can be raised slowly to reflect the DP tanks parameters.

HTH,

Paul

[Gooly001]

Also, forgot to mention that if the ich wounds are very aggressive; you might encounter secondary infections that are even more lethal then the ich themselves. Find some Methylene Blue to treat as an antiseptic; however MB robs the water of oxygen so make sure you airate heavily.

Paul

[Delphinus]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the replies.

So no to the Aquaclear then? Just water changes every 2 days in an otherwise filterless tank? Should I add a small powerhead for water movement or find an air pump and air stone?

Do I understand correctly that you recommend both SG down to 1.018 and cupramine at half-dosage for butterflies?

And potentially methylene blue? How do I know if this is needed?

Man .. I am totally out of my depth here. :(

Here is the the thing: they really don't act as if they have ich. No scratching, no loss of appetite. But they are covered with white dots, they look like they have been salted. This comes and goes. I have a UV on the tank as well but it must be completely ineffective (the lamp needs replacing and it's not one I can get locally - it's an AquaUV 57w). It must be ich .. if it was something else wouldn't they be more affected?

They are in the tank by themselves, maybe 2 or 3 snails and a golden dwarf eel. I have been meaning to move the 3 into a new FOWLR I've been setting up but it's nowhere near ready. Once the new tank is cycled I can move the eel over, he's not affected by spots at all. I'm assuming maybe eels have more tolerance/immunity against ich?

[Delphinus]

Also how much water do you change out every 2 days? 50%? Just bring in water from the DT, or use brand new SW for these changes?

[abcha0s]

Hi Tony

I'm certainly not an expert on qt, so take my comments with a grain of thought. I have thought a lot about it and have also been trying to figure out how to avoid transferring ich from my old to my new tank.

Edit: That's was supposed to say a grain of salt, but really a grain of thought seems more appropriate :smile:

Paul makes some good points. In particular, each fish species has unique tolerances to copper and hyposalinity. The ideal treatment might depend more on the fish than anything else.

If you are only treating ich, I personally would try to go the hyposalinity route (as long as your fish can tolerate it). This also means that you could potentially move some live rock into the qt tank as hypo won't necessarily kill the bacteria. I found many references on WetWebMedia that suggest hyposalinity doesn't always work, but it seems that many aquarists’ have had success.

There's also the Daily Water Change approach which I really like (in theory).

Fish are put into a quarantine/hospital tank and then everyday for two weeks the tank is completely cleaned and a 50% water change is performed. ... This method helps to remove the tomites, tomonts, and theronts from the tank and lessens the chance of reinfection. - Source (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php)
When I move my tangs between the two tanks, I am planning to try a combination of these two methods. The idea would be to perform 50% water changes daily using tank water diluted to 1.009 SG. In performing the water change, the bottom of the qt tank is thoroughly vacuumed.

I do believe that ammonia accumulates rapidly in qt without substantial live rock. When I attempted qt in the past, I measured large amounts of ammonia and nitrite. I almost lost my fish, but instead abandoned the qt and subsequently introduced ich into my tank. I knew it was there, I just couldn't sacrifice the fish.

It is because of the requirement for frequent water changes that I think a combination of the hyposalinity and daily water changes is what I will try.

If you’re going to use cleated copper (Cupramine), I don't think there is much point in trying to run any biological filtration. In my experience, and in most of my reading, I think the copper all but destroys the bacterial colonies. Manage your parameters through water changes. Add the copper to the make up water, not the qt tank. As always, stability is the key.

I'd suggest somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% total volume daily for water changes.

Just my thoughts... I'm going to have to attempt this sometime soon as well.

You might also consider adding PraziPro to your qt strategy. Not for ich, but for various other parasites that are not necessarily visible. As the saying goes, most healthy fish can fight off ich. If they are busy fighting off other parasites, I would speculate that they become more susceptible to ich.

One last thought about Ammonia test kits
Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?
A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines. - Source (http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html#faq4)
Food for thought...

- Brad

[Gooly001]

Hi Tony,

This is my regement for treating ich once I detect it.

-90 gallon QT with Prizm Skimmer (crappy skimmer but works ok for QT)
-IO salt mixed with fresh RO water at 1.018
-Cupramin dosed according to directions for Angels and halfed for -Tangs/Bflies
-Koralia 1050 power head for water movement and aeration
-2" PVC cut to length. PVC is easy to sanitize after the QT period. Don't waste money on LR for QT because most meds will make the LR die and add nutrients to the QT system.
-Mark water level on the QT tank so that you know how much to top off on salinity daily
-If you notice red wound marks on the fish after/during the copper treatment it may be an infection so Methelyene Blue can be added to disinfect. MB is very difficult to overdose so you can use it generously. Just make sure you run an air stone and discontinue skimmer usage
-Temperature should be around 78 degress. Most people recommend upping the temp to make the ich cycle faster but my opinion is to stabilize the fish in the QT before stressing them out by forcing the ich to multiply
-Salinity at 1.018 does not kill the ich but allows the fish to reserve energy from having to work on osmosis. The cupramine will kill the ich over the course of the treatment.
-Getting the fish to eat is the most important thing here. If the fish eat during QT they can battle the disease. If they don't eat after 4-5 days then I find that their chances of survival are greatly diminished. Feed lots and keep water changes up if you do.

Paul
Hi Paul,

Thanks for the replies.

So no to the Aquaclear then? Just water changes every 2 days in an otherwise filterless tank? Should I add a small powerhead for water movement or find an air pump and air stone?

Do I understand correctly that you recommend both SG down to 1.018 and cupramine at half-dosage for butterflies?

And potentially methylene blue? How do I know if this is needed?

Man .. I am totally out of my depth here. :(

Here is the the thing: they really don't act as if they have ich. No scratching, no loss of appetite. But they are covered with white dots, they look like they have been salted. This comes and goes. I have a UV on the tank as well but it must be completely ineffective (the lamp needs replacing and it's not one I can get locally - it's an AquaUV 57w). It must be ich .. if it was something else wouldn't they be more affected?

They are in the tank by themselves, maybe 2 or 3 snails and a golden dwarf eel. I have been meaning to move the 3 into a new FOWLR I've been setting up but it's nowhere near ready. Once the new tank is cycled I can move the eel over, he's not affected by spots at all. I'm assuming maybe eels have more tolerance/immunity against ich?

[Gooly001]

Oh yah and I remember vaguely reading somewhere that smooth scaled fish are almost immune to the ich parasites. We rarely encounter ich on wrasses and smooth scaled fish.

Paul

[ScubaSteve]

Hi Tony,

Bummer dude. I recently lost my butterfly to ich. Butterflies are weird with ich. They don't act like they have it and it comes and goes, like you said. But each time it comes back it comes back a little worse until one day they take a dramatic turn for the worse. Mine went from ich-y but happy and healthy to dead in less than 48 hours.

And I agree with Paul on the comment about secondary infections. My butterfly, in his dramatic down turn, contracted a secondary infection that lead to symptoms like red spots on the skin (bleeding) and the tell-tale signs of popeye. It is the secondary infection that I believe got passed around to everyone else in my tank. A day and a bit after my buttlerfly kicked the bucket, my mandarin followed. No idea what killed the mandarin but he had all sorts of weird symptoms that were all over the map. As Paul said, ich isn't likelt to attack smooth skinned fish (like mandarins). Who knows... Just be prepared for this.

Change 50% every second day and don't bother with cycling the sponge. It'll do nothing at this point and meds will kill anything useful. The butterflies are finicky as all heck. Even though you CAN drop salinity fast, try not to as this seems to just irritate the butterflies, who then get stressed, which makes things worse. I never tried the copper meds but I agree with the half dose idea. As long as you can keep them eating like pigs you're golden. Oh, and don't for a second think they'll fight it off like tangs do... once a butterfly gets ich they just start cycling through it and progressively get worse.

Have fun and good luck! Tell those butterflies to stop getting their knickers in a twist and getting sick.

[fishoholic]

In my experience hypo has been much easier on fish then cupramine treatment, and with ich (IME) hypo has been 100% effective, that being said though my CBB was my only fish that was fine during the cupramine treatment when I had velvet, but he was one of the only ones who never showed symptoms of velvet either. FYI cupramine treatment will normally cause a loss of appetite, where I find hypo doesn't. With hypo I went from 1.024 down to 1.010 over 4 days and after 2 weeks at 1.010 I raised it back up slowly over 7 days, up by 2 points a day.

I have a 110g QT tank (which I've used to do hypo and I used it for cupramine treatment) and in both cases I used fresh saltwater (no point in introducing more of the disease from using display tank water etc.) and I did 50% water changes every other day. In both cases I also had 2 koraila 4's running and 5 bubbliers. In your case I would run a small power head and a bubblier.

[Delphinus]

Ugh. Thanks for the all the replies. I have to say it makes my head swim though. So one the one hand butterflies are sensitive to hyposalinity. On the other hand butterflies are sensitive to Cupramine. Aaaaaaaa!

What's completely bewildering to me is that I had them for over 18 months, ich-free, in a tank where one of the tangs had occasional spots on and off for 18 months, but never more than a half-dozen individual white spots, so was never a huge concern to me. Now that fish is in another tank and completely ich-free, and these guys have a nice large tank to themselves so you'd think they'd have less stress, but when the spots come back they are really bad.

Is 20g big enough for 2 butterflies? When I hear stuff like 90g QT/hospital tanks I start to wonder that treating two butterflies in a 20g is a recipe for more trouble since clearly they just stress out over little things.

The tank is not a full blown reef. In fact, there is nothing in there except the 3 fish (2 butterflies and a tiny eel, who completely ignore each other), live rock, the occasional snail. Would there be any benefit in rehoming the eel into his new tank and then simply lowering the SG in this tank to something like 1.019-1.021? Recognizing that this will not kill the ich, but, 1) it seems to me nothing kills ich anyhow, it's always there, just not able to infest fish when they are healthy; and 2) this way they are in their home, comfortable, still eating, etc. Then I shore up the UV and maybe garlic the food, or add vitamins or whatever .. and see what happens?

My hesitation is that I did try hypo on some pyramid butterflies a couple years back when I bought them and they developed ich. That episode was a complete failure. If they're just going to die anyhow then is it kinder to let them die in their home as opposed to speeding it up in a doomed attempt at treatment in a 20g ???

[Myka]

I didn't read everyone else's replies (too many), but how big are these Butterflies Tony? I'm not sure 20 gallons is big enough...

Personally, I don't use copper on any fish. I will use Formalin before copper. At least Formalin will treat a wider variety of disease (including Ich if you really want), and Formalin is only a dip. That said, I don't use either treatment for Ich. I use hyposalinity. Butterflies are sensitive to pretty much anything, but hyposalinity is easier to turn around than copper treatment.

If you are worried about the AquaClear intake put a sponge over it. Imo, the AquaClear power filter is the best and easiest option to use on a QT.

I recently described my general QT procedures on a different thread. Here's a copy n paste (with some editing for you).

Equipment:
~ Tank
~ Heater
~ Powerhead
~ AquaClear power filter
~ PVC pipes
~ Carbon
~ Seachem Prime
~ Seachem Ammonia Alert; and/or
~ Salicylate ammonia test kit (API is preferred, Elos and Salifert not compatible with Prime)


Use water from the display tank to fill up the quarantine tank (doesn't matter if the water is infected because apparently so is the fish, right? hehe). The filter floss media I use in the sump in my display tank fits into the AquaClear with a bit of trimming. I use the used media from the display tank to "seed" nitrifying bacteria to the QT. Use two pieces of media, one new one and one used one. Once a week replace the older one with a new piece. When used water and used media are used to seed a QT fish can be placed into the tank as soon as you're sure the temperature is correct and stable.

If medications are being used I will dose the QT with Prime. Most medications will kill nitrifying bacteria so the seeded media is a moot point in the power filter - just use new media.

For Ich I don't medicate, I use hyposalinity so a refractometer is required. Google "marine ich hyposalinity" for more info on that.

The Prime is to de-toxify ammonia. The Ammonia Alert is to indicate if you need to add more Prime (or do a water change) to lower the ammonia. Ammonia is your biggest concern in a QT, and is why a person would be concerned about nitrifying bacteria. No nitrifying bacteria (due to "freshness" of tank or because of medications) and ammonia will be soon to come. You need to use a salicylate test kit to test for ammonia as the Nessler types will give you a "false" ammonia reading when using Prime. I like to use the Ammonia Alert (which I find is surprisingly accurate) in addition to daily testing for ammonia. Ammonia is so deadly and kills so quickly that it is very much worth the double check.

Use carbon in the power filter to remove medications when finished so you can monitor the fish's health post-medication for a week or two sans medication before re-introducing to display.

For Ich, I use the typical 6 week hyposalinity treatment.

[Delphinus]

Thanks M, great post. I was looking for that thread last night but in my state (just a lot of things going on right now, my dad's in the hospital atm) I didn't give myself enough time to actually find it.

The butterflies are not huge but they are not tiny either. I would call them in about 3". I'm starting to have serious doubts that treating them in a 20g is advisable. Unfortunately it's all I've got. I had a 36" long 30g which would have been better but it was dropped and the bottom is cracked and it's just sitting there taunting me waiting for me to find enough crap to load up the truck to take to the landfill.

I'm also starting to doubt whether the problem with the butterflies may be in fact each other. With the removal of the other fish the social dynamic is of course different, it's like the old married couple who after 30 years the last kid moves out of the house and they become empty nesters and then all of a sudden realize they can't stand each other's company but they never noticed this before because things were always just too busy. Don't know for sure if this is the case but I'm left to wonder. There is nobody to pick on them except for each other. The eel is afraid of his own shadow and spends his day hiding in a rock only to occasionally peek out, see his own shadow is still there, and then scurries back into his cave. So I don't see how it could be him that stresses the fish.

Quick question, how long does it take to seed a sponge with nitrying bacteria? Is a couple of days going to suffice or does it need more time than that?

I'm wondering if I should separate them, take the one that is more afflicted, treat him alone in the 20g, and see if the other one recovers on his own in the big tank. If he does then I know that it is the pairing that is the problem and I then take steps accordingly (sell one or both or something along those lines).

[George]

Paul,
I probably missed something. But why you only lower your salinity to 1.018? Since you know 1.018 won't kill ich and you dose copper anyway. Why bother with that salinity and just leave the salinity at normal level.

[Gooly001]

Hi George,

Good question. It is our belief that fish exert energy on osmosis; extracting freshwater from saltwater to drink, so the reasoning for the lower salinity is to help the fish NOT to overexert it's energy on diffusing the saltwater but to allow it to have as much energy as possible to fight the disease that it is needing to combat.

However, on the opposite side, if the fish is treated in total fresh water for a prolonged period of time it will explode with freshwater in it's system.

So to summarize, 1.018 won't kill the ich but will help the fish reserve it's energy on fighting the parasite as oppose to having to use it's energy desalinating.

Cheers,

Paul

Paul,
I probably missed something. But why you only lower your salinity to 1.018? Since you know 1.018 won't kill ich and you dose copper anyway. Why bother with that salinity and just leave the salinity at normal level.

[Lance]

Hi George,

Good question. It is our belief that fish exert energy on osmosis; extracting freshwater from saltwater to drink, so the reasoning for the lower salinity is to help the fish NOT to overexert it's energy on diffusing the saltwater but to allow it to have as much energy as possible to fight the disease that it is needing to combat.

However, on the opposite side, if the fish is treated in total fresh water for a prolonged period of time it will explode with freshwater in it's system.

So to summarize, 1.018 won't kill the ich but will help the fish reserve it's energy on fighting the parasite as oppose to having to use it's energy desalinating.

Cheers,

Paul



Hey guys, I read an interesting article on hyposalinity therapy and some of the benefits aside parasite control, according to the author are:
- acclimation and alleviating the effects of stress
- wounds heal quicker
- some antibiotics work more efficiently in softer water than in full strength
seawater
- conserving metabolic energy