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View Full Version : Ocean Nutrition Formula Pellet - availability


WuHT
04-25-2011, 08:16 AM
I've seen a gradual change in stock for fish food change to NLS.

NLS pellets are great at the small size, but the medium size seems slightly larger than the medium size for the formula one/two pellets (and obviously not being eaten when i tried to feed it).

Does anyone know which store still carries the ocean nutrition formula one/two pellets ? I'd like to stock up, enough so that my medium fish grow large enoguh to ween onto NLS (well the reality is my angel is likely just picky)

RD
04-25-2011, 04:15 PM
Try lightly soaking your NLS pellets for the more finicky fish, then reduce the pre-soaking once they get a taste for the food.

Any ON that you currently find in Canada will more than likely be older stock, as the CFIA ban in Canada has been in place for quite some time.

fishytime
04-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Ive said it before and will probably say it again but......NLS actively adds copper to their foods......Im not saying that its a bad food, just food for thought about feeding it to your reef......Red Coral has probably the last of the ON stock in western Canada...... RC online should be able to get it to you:wink:.......we've been trying out the "New Era" foods with good results......

RD
04-26-2011, 12:51 AM
Ive said it before and will probably say it again but......NLS actively adds copper to their foods......

The copper New Life used to add, was a minute amount, added as a dietary supplement, and it has never been shown to have any type of negative effect on marine life. Most marine salts also contain trace amounts of copper, and always have. Joe Yaiullo, one of the pioneers of reef keeping in the USA, and the curator/co-founder of Atlantis Marine World in NY has been feeding NLS for the past decade. His reef tank is the largest in North America, and 4th largest in the world. I think he knows what he's doing.

Charles Delbeek M.Sc., senior biologist at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco also feeds NLS at their facility. Neither experienced any negative issues due to the copper supplement that used to be added to NLS.

Either way, New Life stopped adding a copper supplement when they began making their own food, at their own facility. The raw ingredients now contain enough nutrient supplementation that bioavailability is no longer a concern.
This will be reflected when their new labels begin to roll out over the course of next year.

FYI - New Era also lists copper under the mineral profile of their food. (23 mg/kg in their marine foods) and ON foods also contain copper, as was shown in this past discussion on the exact same topic that you posted in a couple of yrs ago.
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=54356

The fact that a commercial pellet or flake doesn't list copper on their label, certainly does not equate to that food not actually containing copper. Almost all commercial foods on the market contain trace amounts of copper, and for good reason, it's an essential trace element.

For those interested, some further reading on the role that copper plays in the health of marine life.

http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/1998/12/water_health.html


HTH

WuHT
04-26-2011, 07:50 AM
Try lightly soaking your NLS pellets for the more finicky fish, then reduce the pre-soaking once they get a taste for the food.

Any ON that you currently find in Canada will more than likely be older stock, as the CFIA ban in Canada has been in place for quite some time.

Yeah so i've heard about the "ban" but never really found a source on the internet regarding it.

Anyways it's not really a matter of taste, the pellet seems visually larger (a cylinder shape vs ON's round pellets).

I shall be mindful of all advice in this thread

BlueWorldAquatic
04-26-2011, 03:37 PM
Anything left on store shelves will likely be the last you see.

I know I have had difficulty in choosing the new foods to stock in the shelves, and NLS was one of the options.

We are currently awaiting our order of New Era foods.

Ken - BWA

Myka
04-26-2011, 04:13 PM
Pet food manufacturers only have to label what they add to the food. When they buy an item for the food, say "fish meal", the manufacturer doesn't have to list the ingredients the supplier added the fish meal, just "fish meal". This problem arises in dog and cat foods mainly because those foods are much more popular and inspected more scrupulously by the consumer and the PFAC. Taking "fish meal" as an example again, many suppliers add ethoxyquin (known carcinogen used as a preservative) to their fish meals, and the manufacturer doesn't have to list ethoxyquin as an ingredient on their label. That ingredient is one of the bigger "hidden ingredient" concerns in dog and cat foods.

I have a feeling that people (manufacturers, ingredient suppliers, consumers, and the PFAC) in very general terms care about their fish foods less than their dog and cat foods. There is a lot of garbage that makes its way into dog and cat foods; I can just imagine the garbage in fish food.

In the end, the best option for your fish's health is probably using raw human-grade seafood and seaweeds supplementing daily with a proven vitamin supplement like Selcon.

RD
04-26-2011, 06:35 PM
Before this topic gets any further out of control, let's get a few facts straight.

The whole ethoxyquin scare started from a single rumour, which became so blown out of proportion via internet chat forums that it eventually turned into another urban myth. The only reason that this preservative ever came into question, was due to a study performed on rats back in 1987 where the dose level of 5,000 ppm ethoxyquin, which is FAR higher than approved levels in pet food, suggested a carcinogenic potential. Ethoxyquin has since been blamed for a myriad of problems, none of which have ever been proven.

Considering the outcry over this preservative by dog owners worldwide, one would think that by now there would be a plethora of data/studies that actually proved that this preservative caused at least some type of long-term health issue in pets. There is not a single documented case where ethoxyquin used at approved levels has been found to cause any type of long term negative health condition in a dog, cat, fish, or otherwise. One would think that with all of the hysterical anti-ethoxyquin crusades that have taken place over the past 20 yrs or so that at least one non-biased study would be able to prove that this substance can cause serious long term health issues in pets, even when used at appropriate or approved levels. Yet to date, there is not a single shred of scientific evidence that supports such a view.

Please keep in mind that almost everything and anything can become toxic at high enough levels, including fat-soluble vitamins. No nutritionist would recommend completely eliminating vitamin A, B, D, E and K from the diet just because high levels can be toxic, yet this exact type of logic is what's used when most people discuss preservatives such as ethoxyquin. When used in small amounts to prevent rancidity, preservatives are valuable and important components of the diet.

Having said all that, there are also alternatives in todays market, such as fish meal that has been preserved via more natural means, sans ethoxyquin.


Secondly, the CFIA (Canadian Food Inspection Agency) is responsible for the safety, regulation, and importation of pet food into Canada. PFAC may have a voice in Canada, and offer suggestions/input etc, but it's a small voice & they don't have any hard say about anything. Different situation when one looks south at what the regulations are in the USA involving the USDA and/or AAFCO. You have no idea what type of red tape & inspections are involved, an absolute nightmare for a US based company that has to not only deal with federal regulations, but also each state individually.

And in many cases these regulations change on a frequent basis. It's gotten to the point that probably the less info one places on their label, the better, or you'll be updating your labels every 6 months. These changes cost $$$$, lots of $$$$, and someone has to eat the cost of outdated labels, and yet another run of new updated labels. It's become goofy stupid.

As an example, most states allow Vitamin C to be listed on a pet food label, but all it takes is one overly anal state inspector to decide that it must be listed as ascorbic acid, and you are forced to either remove that listing from your label, or play by their new rules. Even if the vitamin C you are listing is the total content, most comprised from the raw ingredients themselves, not from some vitamin premix. One wrong word or term can equate to your product being disallowed in an entire state, and each state requires a permit just to get your product across their border, and like everything else, you have to pay for that privilege. And that's just what takes place within the USA, now factor in all of the other various countries that some fish food products are exported to.

Canada couldn't give a rats behind with regards to things such as GMO products, but the UK requires additional labeling if the product contains .9% or greater GMO. A country such as Turkey doesn't allow any GMO products, not even if it's as little as .0001%. They use outdated testing equipment that simply tests positive, or negative, and if it's positive your shipment will be refused at their border.

It's easy to sit back & critique manufacturers, or their labels, but the reality unless you have walked in their shoes you wouldn't even begin to understand the cluster phuck that takes place within the pet food industry, and label regulations.

The reason that ON became banned is due to the fact that the CFIA laid out some strict import regulations back in 2009. One, the facility making the food requires a clean bill of health from CA inspectors, and two the CFIA no longer allows transshipping of pet food. ON's food is now made in Thailand, where regulations are a world apart from North America, and they ship out of Bangkok to the USA, and then up into Canada. So either they didn't pass, or wouldn't allow a risk assessment at their Thai facility, or they couldn't find an importer to bring in a container directly from Thailand into Canada, or both.
I honestly have no idea. I was told by one of the CFIA inspectors in Ottawa that many Asian companies simply would not allow them access to their facilities. Gee, I wonder why?

The creator of New Life foods was importing & distributing marine fish/corals over 40 yrs ago, and has a spotless 20 yr record with his food, with some of the leading authorities in the marine world using his products over this period.
Even captive bred aquaculture facilities such as ORA use NLS in their feeding regime. http://www.orafarm.com/products/fish/dragonets/blue-mandarin.html

The so called concerns or problems that some of you are looking for simply don't exist. This may not be a perfect world, but if it was I guess all of those fish & corals in your tank would still be out on a reef somewhere.

ProReef
04-26-2011, 08:13 PM
Yup its true if you read the ingredients label the tiny tiny amounts of copper are for cellular metabolism and it is in many additives! We hear at Progressive Reef carry and feed our store fish and our personal aquariums at home the New Era pellets and New Life Spectrum pellets and the fish and I enjoy both. The New Era is great cuz it is very moist and a good aroma, where the NLS has a great small fish variety. If you are looking for a medium pellet, try the New Era pellets- they are a pellet that you can actually roll in your fingers to get a variety of pellet sizes. I actually have two small (100g) containers of the Ocean Nutrition Formula Two Medium pelleat left in stock (and yes older stock) drop me an email (sales@progressivereef.com) or phone call (toll free 866-997-7333)and we can get that sent to you. Good Luck. And check out our web site. Progressivereef.com
Cheers Ronnie

Myka
04-26-2011, 09:35 PM
RD, Taste of the Wild dog food admits to using "fish meal" with added ethoxyquin (off label). They are a reputable company, I'm sure there are many others like them with hidden ingredients.

My point wasn't the tangent you went off on, my point was that there are ingredients in pet foods that aren't listed on the label.

RD
04-26-2011, 10:09 PM
Myka - If you consider reading some actual facts from someone who actually knows what the hell they are talking about, a tangent, that's certainly your prerogative. If you & fishytime want to live in a world of paranoia that's also your prerogative, I'm just keeping things real. :wink:

fishytime crys wolf about the added copper in New Life, yet at the same time mentions the good results he's seeing in another product that has even more added copper in all of their marine foods, than New Life ever had. You then join in talking about a substance that is supposedly a known carcinogen, when the truth is at the approved levels used in pet food it has never been proven to be anything of the sort.


And where exactly did the OP ask for anyones opinion with regards to copper supplementation, label regulations, or preservatives?

You're both welcome to your opinion, but I find it rather difficult to sit on my hands when I read comments such as those.

Cheers!

fishytime
04-27-2011, 02:25 AM
how am I crying wolf?.....im stating a fact......yes, there are a few things that are ingredients in fish foods that contain copper naturally, in trace amounts and there is nothing that can be done about that.....thus it not being listed on some fish food labels, but still showing up under analysis......Im talking about something that is being actively added as an ingredient (for whatever reason) and listed as such on the label......why do you suppose it is, that NLS no longer adds or has decided to change formulas or facilities or all of the above and no longer add copper protienate??????...... what else changed in the formulation to warrant not adding copper protienate????......you should be able to tell me......your a moderator on the NLS forum arent you?????... if I can walk up to a shelf and take two fish foods of the shelf and one actively adds copper protienate and the other one doesnt, which one do you think Im gonna feed to my reef???...........all I know is, I have a choice........as I said in my first post "I'M NOT SAYING ITS A BAD FOOD, JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT"...I think that it is great food for fish designed with the fishes health in mind.......I understand that when ingested the fish are able to metabolize most of what they ingest......but what about that pellets that fall on my acan or nem or what ever......what about the food that goes un-eaten by the fish and feeds our reef????....I feed NLS small fish formula to my nano fish......do I like it?......NO.......but it is all that has been readily available......all Im trying to do is make people aware of whats in the food that they feed to their reef......the decision to feed it is up to them.......

Im not gonna sit here and take the word of some one who obviously has something to do with either the NLS forum or the company itself, or both and someone who's only posts here seem to be related to NLS foods.....what else would you say????......how long has the food been around? .....long enough to accurately state that there isnt any concern, long term over what NLS adds( or added) to their foods??..... providing links and info to a couple large aquariums that have been feeding NLS means nothing to me.......if I had a $10,000 dollar skimmer and all the money in the world to throw at filtration and 22,000g of dilution then I might not worry too much either.....

Myka
04-27-2011, 03:32 AM
:popcorn: Hehehe...this is a good'er eh Doug? He called me paranoid...that's humorous indeed. :D

And yes, RD's post history is interesting. It is obvious that RD has an involvement with NLS fish foods.

RD
04-27-2011, 03:44 PM
fishytime - what you have apparently failed to understand is that the vast majority of all commercial foods contain small amounts of copper in their mineral premix, as it is an essential trace element. Take a close look at the nutrient profile of New Era and you will find that they too actively add copper to their food. Each marine formula in their line has the exact same amount, 23 mg/kg.

Do you reckon that manufacturers add copper supplementation just for kicks, or because they enjoy spending money for no reason, other than to cause panic amongst reef keepers? Seriously, think about it. What manufacturer in their right mind would waste money where it wasn't required, or use any type of supplement or raw ingredient that had the potential to cause harm in an aquatic environment?

You asked how long this food has been around, approx 25 yrs, and it has been sold world-wide for approx 20 yrs. Five years of in house testing & tweaking, and 20 years of real world experience. Add to that 40+ yrs of marine keeping experience by the creator of this line of food. The owner has several thousand gallons of FOWLR & reef tanks in his home, with guests such as Bob Fenner & Charles Delbeek that drop in for visits when they are in south FL. New Life is actually the #1 food recommended by Bob & staff on Wetwebmedia, and has been for years. Maybe Bob doesn't know what he's talking about, either?

You seem to have some misguided illusion that somehow you know something that a fleet of research scientists that specialize in this field, don't know. If that's the case then please offer up something with some actual facts & data to support your claims, beyond your constant "the sky is falling" spiel.

If you are truly concerned about trace amounts of copper in your reef food, then what you should really be concerned about is the total amount of copper in the food, not which company is actively adding copper supplements. At least place your concerns where according to your argument, they should be. A food with no added supplementation could potentially have twice as much copper as one that does actively add it. Your fears are based on nothing more than imaginary numbers, and imaginary facts.

Also, when it comes to these various nutrients & trace minerals, bioavailablity is paramount, which is exactly why many manufacturers actively add this trace mineral to their food. The only number that truly matters is the amount that a marine organism can utilize for proper enzyme function and metabolism.

But hey, if you don't trust me, or don't want to take my word on any of this, feel free to ignore my comments and go back & re-read some of the comments from your fellow forum members when this issue was raised a couple of yrs ago. They pretty much said the same thing as I am.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=54356


If you still don't get it, then I'm not sure what more I can say on this subject? At this point I will have to let fellow forum members draw their own conclusions as to who does or does not know what they are talking about.




but what about that pellets that fall on my acan or nem or what ever......what about the food that goes un-eaten by the fish and feeds our reef????....

Many people actually target feed their corals with New Life pellets, and have been doing so for many yrs with no ill effects. Quite the opposite. New Life has even come out with foods designed just for corals, imagine that!

why do you suppose it is, that NLS no longer adds or has decided to change formulas or facilities or all of the above and no longer add copper protienate??????......

I explained that in post #4. Either way, New Life stopped adding a copper supplement when they began making their own food, at their own facility. The raw ingredients now contain enough nutrient supplementation that bioavailability is no longer a concern. This will be reflected when their new labels begin to roll out over the course of next year.

There are very few fish food manufacturers that actually make their own food, most have their food made off site by a commercial feed mill, with many now farming it off to feed mills in Asia. (hence the concern by the CFIA) New Life being an international company, with exports to all points on the globe, required being fully compliant with not only USDA regulations, but also APHIS regulations.

To make a long story short, the owner of New Life felt that to truly control his product from start to finish, he needed to make the food himself, onsite, at his own facility. Doing so also allowed him to fine tune & improve things in his formula, which included increasing the amount of certain ingredients such as South Antarctic Krill in his formulas. Once doing so he concluded that the natural copper levels found in his finished product was adequate, which is why he no longer adds any to the mix. Make sense now?


And for the record, for anyone that might not be aware of it I was the person who originally imported NLS into Canada several yrs ago, and yes, my company is still actively involved with importing & distributing this product, including to several sponsors of this site. I've never hidden that fact, and in this case it certainly has no bearing on my comments. I'm not looking to sell anyone anything, I simply hate to see misinformation being bantered around as though it was based on facts.

And Myka, seeing as you asked in that previous discussion, the level of copper in NLS has always been in the 20 mg/kg range, aka 20 ppm, or 0.002%. Most company information is typically kept confidential, and/or falls under proprietary information, for reasons I'm sure most consumers can understand. In this case divulging the quantity of Cu is not that big of a deal, and perhaps will help ease a few troubled minds.

My original reason for entering this discussion was to assist the OP, and seeing as I have personally trained numerous fish to eat the larger NLS pellets via pre-soaking them, and seeing as the OP already has these pellets on hand, it seemed like a simple fix to me. Seeing as I also work within the fish food industry, and am well versed on the CFIA regulations, and am in continuous contact with one of the top CFIA agents in Ottawa on these matters, I also felt qualified enough to explain why ON ran into problems with getting their food into Canada.


Happy Fishkeeping