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fencer
04-18-2011, 05:52 PM
Here is an article that outlines Paly poision symptoms

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/palytoxin-the-worlds-second-deadliest-poison-possibly-available-at-your-lfs


I have all those symptoms twice except death. Note the aerosol link

toytech
04-18-2011, 09:07 PM
Scary stuff , makes you think twice about going all chainsaw massacre on ugly palys . We all might need to adopt a brown is beautiful mindset or we are all gonna die !

fishytime
04-18-2011, 09:21 PM
Warning number 1 in the marine aquarium cautions thread

daniella3d
04-18-2011, 11:09 PM
wow...an article with only one source of reference which is a forum message posted by one person?

sure...

I touch and frag paly and zoanthids all the time, get slimed all over and never ever had any trace of symptoms from it.

I ever keep some very huge paly that came on some liverock and never have any reaction when I touch them.

My main passion in coral are zoanthids and paly and I love to collect as many variety as I can... sure.... what ever...


Here is an article that outlines Paly poision symptoms

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/palytoxin-the-worlds-second-deadliest-poison-possibly-available-at-your-lfs


I have all those symptoms twice except death. Note the aerosol link

fencer
04-18-2011, 11:33 PM
Only takes one time to get nuked.....

hillegom
04-18-2011, 11:39 PM
Josie
Look at this link, scroll down to second colour pic
Do you have any of those outlined in red?
http://web.me.com/miseryukyu/MISE@University_of_the_Ryukyus/Publication_List_files/Deedsetal2011.pdf

fencer
04-19-2011, 12:04 AM
Thank you hillegom

fishytime
04-19-2011, 12:14 AM
wow...an article with only one source of reference which is a forum message posted by one person?

sure...

I touch and frag paly and zoanthids all the time, get slimed all over and never ever had any trace of symptoms from it.

I ever keep some very huge paly that came on some liverock and never have any reaction when I touch them.

My main passion in coral are zoanthids and paly and I love to collect as many variety as I can... sure.... what ever...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/1393.htm
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1804905


now how do you feel about licking your hands after fragging your zoas?

dont listen to her, people.......do not mess around.....take precautions or at the very least wash your hands thoroughly.......

Madreefer
04-19-2011, 12:19 AM
wow...an article with only one source of reference which is a forum message posted by one person?

sure...

I touch and frag paly and zoanthids all the time, get slimed all over and never ever had any trace of symptoms from it.

I ever keep some very huge paly that came on some liverock and never have any reaction when I touch them.

My main passion in coral are zoanthids and paly and I love to collect as many variety as I can... sure.... what ever...

What an idiotic thing to say. It's a known fact that alot of people have been sick due to this. Just like telling a person a different thread that they are basically just imagining their symptons 'cause they read about side effects.

Flash
04-19-2011, 12:31 AM
unfortunatly this is becoming much to common, and the reefer community (new and old) needs to be aware of the dangers that lurk in our tanks. As fencer said, it only takes one time.

Great link! thanks for sharing!

waynemah
04-19-2011, 01:04 AM
hillegom thanks for the killer document! Exactly what I was looking for.

cathyg_99
04-19-2011, 03:48 AM
i think its happening more frequent because newer people go to the lfs when they start out and the lfs never tell you to wear gloves ect... so i think its just people not knowing the dangers

fencer
04-19-2011, 03:58 AM
Cathy it was areosol that got me and i was using tongs

cathyg_99
04-19-2011, 04:12 AM
Cathy it was areosol that got me and i was using tongs

i meant in general... i got sick because i was not wearing gloves and had a killer rash for a few days

Madreefer
04-19-2011, 04:54 AM
Something has to be changed with the acronym LFS. When I hear that I think of a place like Petcetra, Petsmart or Totalpet. Chain stores where they hire young kids that really dont have a clue. It really sucks for the reputable salt water specialty stores. Dont listen to the people in the big chain stores.

asylumdown
04-19-2011, 05:21 AM
I just hope this doesn't become the catchall jump-to conclusion for every unexplained rash/chest pain/what have you people with reef tanks experience. 'I can't explain something, therefore I have an explanation for it' is right up there with humanities most loved logical fallacies.

Our expanding discussion of a phenomenon creates ample breeding ground for people to pin any sort of otherwise unexplained happenings on something that sounds new and scary (for example, there was no such thing as an alien abduction story until Betty and Barney Hill popularized their 'abduction' in popular media).

Now, I don't believe anyone is imagining anything, and the symptoms people have experienced are most certainly real symptoms of something, but the only way to confirm a case of palytoxin poisoning is to a) confirm that it's actually present in the local environment in the first place and b) confirm via blood tests that a person has been poisoned. There are thousands of other things in our reefs, homes, lives, etc. that can cause allergic reactions, rashes, respiratory ailments and you name it that you might not know you've been exposed to. Considering how powerful this toxin is, if it was really that wide spread in our tanks there would be far more dead reefers, or reefers in intensive care than there are.

With that said, I'm not saying that people here or in other places haven't been affected by it, or that it's not in our tanks, or that it's not a risk. Even a small risk with consequences that severe warrants appropriate protections. Thankfully it seems to be a small number of species that harbour this toxin in appreciable quantities, and it's crappy that it isn't easier to tell which ones have it and which don't. I certainly bought a pair of gloves after reading that article a few weeks ago, and have thought twice about boiling my rocks.

Considering how long people have been keeping zoas however, I also don't think it's as big a problem as the part of our brains that evolved to see lions in every rustle of the leaves wants us to believe either.

Now after typing that annoyingly skeptical little blurb, I'm almost guaranteed to drop dead the next time I stick my hands in nano zoa tank.

fishoholic
04-19-2011, 11:53 AM
unfortunatly this is becoming much to common, and the reefer community (new and old) needs to be aware of the dangers that lurk in our tanks. As fencer said, it only takes one time.

Great link! thanks for sharing!

+1

From what I've heard from others it seems that the ugly brown paly's seem to be the worse for releasing toxin.

daniella3d
04-19-2011, 12:12 PM
Licking my hands? now that's really stupid lol! I am not going to go lick my hands if they are covered with contact glue, but will I die if I touch it? of course NOT.

I am not debating that polytoxin does not exist. The links you posted are all about the toxin itself. I was refering to the extremely very rare cases where people have been affected by it. Only one reference which is nothing but a forum thread. Not from a medical journal, not from an hospital, nothing but a forum mention.

Will I go licking my hand full of palythoas slime? of course not, this is stupid just to mention it. Will I go dizzy and faint? of course not. I simply use common sense. There are much more dangerous things in a saltwater aquarium than the remote possibility of getting poisoned by palytoxin and die.

Yes sure wash your hands...

and please send all your deadly zoanthids and paly to me...I collect them.

" PlTX and ostreocin-D are much less toxic after oral than after parenteral administration. Acute toxicity and deaths have been reported from human outbreaks, but there are no reliable quantitative data on acute toxicity of PlTX-group toxins in humans."
deaths? who exactly died? name? when? where? I never read anything about someone dying from it, except in the ancian art of poisoning the arrows and those were going into the bloodstream. All the people who I have read about supposably getting sick were all ok after a short trip to the hospital. So just tell me who died from it?

If there are "deaths" from it, we should at least be able to find one?





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/1393.htm
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1804905


now how do you feel about licking your hands after fragging your zoas?

dont listen to her, people.......do not mess around.....take precautions or at the very least wash your hands thoroughly.......

fishytime
04-19-2011, 01:09 PM
yes but Danniella, your basically telling people that because you handle and frag your zoas all the time, so the problem(or potential for a problem) doesnt exist.....and this is irresponsible advice.....I feel that it is better to broad spectrum warm people about the potential for palytoxin poisoning and let them decide how they wanna handle their zoas and palys.....there have been plenty of cases of people getting sick from handling their palys.....now what would have happened if any of these people had an open cut on their hands???......I have been trying to find the thread where a gentleman's dog died after he was fragging palys, but I havnt been able to find it.....and I disagree with your claim that there are worse things then palytoxin in out aquariums.....palytoxin is the second most toxic naturally occurring substance known to man.....I dont think you can get much worse than that, in our aquariums.....(save maybe a blue-ringed octopus)

fencer
04-19-2011, 02:17 PM
Doug give up....this person is determined on her opinion right or wrong and it is obvious she has the proof too say otherwise...this is not a topic that is debatable. Paly toxin exists. Because it is in the home reef system there is plenty of potential of getting poisoned by it. I don't have a lot of education but hypersensitivity to paly toxin comes with time. One day your immune system goes in to overdrive and you get nuked. In my case the incidents of asthma and body chills occurred within minutes of working close to paly colonies. Clearly an immuogenic response. In this case I was using tweezers to remove some algae off the paly rock. There must have been enough toxin to dispersed into the air to affect me.( the tank was half empty to expose the area I wanted to clean). What the hey, I am stupid enough to get poisoned by Palys twice, who knows I far I can take it.Like I said don't have a lot of smarts so I rely on people's anecdotal nonscientific, non government funded stories about this hobby. Remember DRINK and DRIVE ALWAYS...it is the only way to increase your chances of early expiration. Oh yeah...2-4D is absolutely safe to use never had a problem until I got into my 3rd eye.

ALang
04-19-2011, 03:36 PM
^^well said, Fencer.

blaster
04-19-2011, 04:15 PM
These articles will bump the cost of buying them.

hillegom
04-19-2011, 04:26 PM
These articles will bump the cost of buying them.


Goodie!! I have some

wickedfrags
04-19-2011, 05:12 PM
How?

And everything is toxic - it really just depends on the dose.

These articles will bump the cost of buying them.

reef-keeper
04-19-2011, 05:20 PM
A newbie Like me and others specially with small children that when cleaning their tank that just a puff of toxin can seriously harm their 4 or 5year old that always wants to help daddy or mommy with the tank duties. I am glad that I read that article. As for the price they may drop to nothing because no one in their right mind with the helpful child would want them in the tank. That is just my opinion.

daniella3d
04-19-2011, 11:07 PM
I am not saying that it does not exist, but that it is something rare, that's all. I am also trying to find any credible reference, names etc..of people who actualy died from it without any luck.

Why would we go eating this stuff? or any other coral in our aquarium that can be toxic? I mean...boiling liverock and breathing the water from it is probably enough (without paly on it) to make some people going into an allergic reaction.

I often work with paly and zoanthids with cuts and wounds on my fingers and never had a problem. I must be pretty lucky since I have been doing this for 2 years now.

What I meat is that there are MUCH higher risk in our aquariums than being poisoned by palytoxine. The vibrio bacterias can probably make you a lot more sick than handling zoanthids. According to the Coral magasine article, no palytoxin were ever found in zoanthids, only in some species of palythoas and propalythoas if I remember well.

Geeezzz..I know a lot of people whom like me are handling zoanthids and paly all the time without even a trace of side effects. Are we so lucky? I think there is a lot of hypocondriac people spreading fear about this.

I read the story of the poisoned dog before, not sure if it is true or not but the dog drank the water full of slime. A lot of thing can kill a dog if consumed...a lot of things can kill a human if consumed. It is plain good old common sense NOT to eat stuff that can be poison. Handling it is another story.

When an article refer to human "deaths" and I cannot even find one credible occurence of it, sorry but I am very skeptical about the whole thing.

yes but Danniella, your basically telling people that because you handle and frag your zoas all the time, so the problem(or potential for a problem) doesnt exist.....and this is irresponsible advice.....I feel that it is better to broad spectrum warm people about the potential for palytoxin poisoning and let them decide how they wanna handle their zoas and palys.....there have been plenty of cases of people getting sick from handling their palys.....now what would have happened if any of these people had an open cut on their hands???......I have been trying to find the thread where a gentleman's dog died after he was fragging palys, but I havnt been able to find it.....and I disagree with your claim that there are worse things then palytoxin in out aquariums.....palytoxin is the second most toxic naturally occurring substance known to man.....I dont think you can get much worse than that, in our aquariums.....(save maybe a blue-ringed octopus)

Madreefer
04-20-2011, 01:07 AM
Give it up Daniella. Another debate that you started and have lost again. We all heard your opinion and the majority disagree with it. Just move on, if you want to keep doing what you are without any precautions than fly at it. This is a great thread and if it will prevent any fellow reefers from getting sick or death than thats a good thing. Now you want names? Wow.

whatcaneyedo
04-20-2011, 03:27 AM
According to the Coral magasine article, no palytoxin were ever found in zoanthids, only in some species of palythoas and propalythoas if I remember well.


"All species of Palythoa, and most related zoanthids including Protopalythoa species, produce a chemical called palytoxin in their mucus and gonads." p182 Aquarium Corals Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History by Eric H. Borneman 2004

What did they say exactly? Because what you are saying contradicts Calfo, Borneman, Shimek, Delbeek and Sprung.

EDIT: You're failing to use correct identification which makes your argument sound ridiculous. Zoanthidae is the Family that contains the Genera Zoanthus, Palythoa etc. So Palythoa ARE Zoanthids.

chandigz
04-20-2011, 07:38 AM
Well I have to say that I have experienced near death palytoxin poisoning. It happened during a move and it happened fast. I was waiting for my buddy to show up to help (11:00am)and I had a ton of ugly slimy palys taking over on several rocks so I decided to pull them off while runnnig them under hot water to kill them. I thought "I should be wearing gloves" but they were already at the new place. Oh well I thought. I've handled lots of zoas before without gloves and I have no cuts on my hand and I'm running them under hot water washing away any toxin. Big mistake. I guess I gouged my finger in the process of ripping them off and was squishing them into into the open wound. Within minutes my lungs were really irritated and was constantly coughing. We got the tank moved and filled with water and my buddy had to go(1:00 PM) By this time I really really wasn't feeling well and my lungs felt like they were on fire. I sat down on the couch passed out and woke up a couple of hours later sicker then I had ever been; severe cold sweats, vertigo, nausia, shaking, respritory distress, racing heart and just about every symptom possible.(3:00pm) I was so messed up that I was dellusional. I remember thinking I should call someone to get my live stock into the tank but I was so incapacitated that I couldn't get off the couch to get to the phone or the tank. Around midnight I managed to crawl on my hands and knees to the tank and eventually dump in my two tupperwear totes of coral and a bucket of fish that had been sitting for over 12 hours. Some how I ended up in bed and was comepletely messed up till late afternoon the next day when symptoms started to disapear(4:00PM next day). I've never come remotely close to being that sick. I felt like I was dieing the whole time. Weard thing was at the time I never thought to call for help or that I might have had palytoxin poisoning. I slept it off and the next day thought of possible paly toxin poisoning and after resarching and talking to a doctor I discovered that I had had an extreme case of poisoning and should have been in the hospital because I could have easily died. I was that close. What were the chances that I had to have the highly toxic ones and just happen to try to remove them without gloves and cut my finger that that day. Just be carefull you never know. Worst part wasn't that I almost died but that I woke up to a completely wiped out tank.

RuGlu6
04-20-2011, 07:59 AM
Look at this toxic critter...
tentacles are up to 15 meters ! kept me from swimming for sure !
.

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo251/RuGlu6/IMG_1845.jpg

StirCrazy
04-20-2011, 01:40 PM
I was refering to the extremely very rare cases where people have been affected by it. Only one reference which is nothing but a forum thread. Not from a medical journal, not from an hospital, nothing but a forum mention.



while deathes are rare, actualy cases of pally poisioning are not rare, I have been about 3 times my self, very mild cases all of them and yes one eas from touching with my hands while I had cut my finger on a chunk of rock with out realizing. Anthony Califo was poisioned twice himself by in advertantly wiping his face with his hand with out even thinking about it.

there is a need to be carfull, but also be reminded that the worst offenders are the hitchhikers not the intentionaly added ones.

Steve