Go

[imcosmokramer]

This is completely unacceptable! I can't believe it's legal.

http://reeftools.com/news/key-chains-with-live-fish-and-turtles-terrible/

[reeferious]

not too sure about cruelty side of entombing live animal inside keychains. look at all those oysters, clams and other live edibles placed live on ice in supermarkets waiting for human consumption. think their potential lifespan is no more than 4 to 5 days.l

[imcosmokramer]

not too sure about cruelty side of entombing live animal inside keychains. look at all those oysters, clams and other live edibles placed live on ice in supermarkets waiting for human consumption. think their potential lifespan is no more than 4 to 5 days.l

"waiting for human consumption" is the differentiator; unless your contention is that people should not eat animals

[Zoaelite]

Number of acts of genocide in Darfur: 300,000
Ornamental gold fish in bags are the least of our worries as a species :neutral:.

[toytech]

That is messed up , who would even think of somthing so stupid .

[viperfish]

not too sure about cruelty side of entombing live animal inside keychains. look at all those oysters, clams and other live edibles placed live on ice in supermarkets waiting for human consumption. think their potential lifespan is no more than 4 to 5 days.l

If you're not sure I can help clear it up for you:

Fish in keychains for decoration - Total nonsense, the idiots that created this are sick for exploiting these poor creatures in such a way.

Seafood in a market - Food

Your comparison makes no sense.

[DiverDude]

It takes a lot to shut me up (just ask my wife !) but this.....

I'm speachless.

$hit like this really leaves me wondering what the future holds for our species.

:cry:

[fishoholic]

Fish in keychains for decoration - Total nonsense, the idiots that created this are sick for exploiting these poor creatures in such a way.

Seafood in a market - Food



+1

[naesco]

Sick, revolting!

Sicker are the Chinese customers who buy them.

[don.ald]

remember, what is acceptable in china's culture may not be acceptable in another. most lfs in canada have no problem selling a goldfish in a goldfish bowl.

if this was a betta keychain would that be ok?
small plastic cup or keychain?

[naesco]

remember, what is acceptable in china's culture may not be acceptable in another. most lfs in canada have no problem selling a goldfish in a goldfish bowl.

if this was a betta keychain would that be ok?
small plastic cup or keychain?


This is not acceptable in anyone's culture, period!

[don.ald]

well, emotions aside, not acceptable in our culture but obviously it is in china.
This is not acceptable in anyone's culture, period!

[Wayne]

Only one word "STUPID"

[Aquattro]

$hit like this really leaves me wondering what the future holds for our species.
:cry:

Personally, I'm not overly optimistic.....

[jon.smolders]

So how come we don't have a problem with betta's in tiny little cups? Or goldfish fed as feederfish? Or kept in tiny fishbowls where the water is never changed? Or goldfish or bettas used a centre pieces in weddings.. afterwhich half are taken home to die, while the other half are flushed? Or the goldfish put in blenders or swallowed whole by 12 year old kids?

I'm not saying it's right... but advocating for the rights of maybe a few thousand goldfish sold in China is very low on my priority list compared to human injustices such as genocides, abuse of women, children, and the elderly, and religious persecution (which is quite a problem in China, BTW).

I appreciate the link to the article.... thats what Canreef is for, but lets not start lobbying for laws against crualty to goldfish, or we may end up with laws that restrict our hobby! Imagine going to jail for because you "neglected" your tank for too long and a fish died...

Just my two cents... :)

[Wayne]

So how come we don't have a problem with betta's in tiny little cups? Or goldfish fed as feederfish? Or kept in tiny fishbowls where the water is never changed? Or goldfish or bettas used a centre pieces in weddings.. afterwhich half are taken home to die, while the other half are flushed? Or the goldfish put in blenders or swallowed whole by 12 year old kids?

I'm not saying it's right... but advocating for the rights of maybe a few thousand goldfish sold in China is very low on my priority list compared to human injustices such as genocides, abuse of women, children, and the elderly, and religious persecution (which is quite a problem in China, BTW).

I appreciate the link to the article.... thats what Canreef is for, but lets not start lobbying for laws against crualty to goldfish, or we may end up with laws that restrict our hobby! Imagine going to jail for because you "neglected" your tank for too long and a fish died...

Just my two cents... :)

I agree that there are lots of things as a human race that we shouldn't be doing.

I am not trying to start an argument by any means; but bettas are natually found in puddle's so small tanks arn't much different then there natural environment. As for gold fish, they are supposed to be housed in 30G or larger aquariums. A key chain is just not large enough and is enprisionment.

As for the neglect that some people have will allowing kids/pets to eat fish, or not properly taking care of an aquarium... I think those people arn't much better than someone who buys this keychain, its just cruel and unfair to something that stick up for itself.

[Kevotron]

I agree that there are lots of things as a human race that we shouldn't be doing.

I am not trying to start an argument by any means; but bettas are natually found in puddle's so small tanks arn't much different then there natural environment. As for gold fish, they are supposed to be housed in 30G or larger aquariums. A key chain is just not large enough and is enprisionment.

As for the neglect that some people have will allowing kids/pets to eat fish, or not properly taking care of an aquarium... I think those people arn't much better than someone who buys this keychain, its just cruel and unfair to something that stick up for itself.


ahhhh a Puddle ? last checked I haven't seen a betta live in a puddle of water... so I question your choice of words there, also i doubt a Betta in their natural enviroment lives in small dixie cup of water.

[Wayne]

ahhhh a Puddle ? last checked I haven't seen a betta live in a puddle of water... so I question your choice of words there, also i doubt a Betta in their natural enviroment lives in small dixie cup of water.

If I recall correctly they are from Asia and mainly live in rice paddies. They live in warm, shallow waters eating mosquito larva. Often time the water they live in is muddy and stagnant so they have adapted to be mouth breathers.

A dixie cup is far from there natural environment. Small tanks (5 gallons minimum) should be enough to make them happy. Or at least as happy as any other fish that we put into our little glass boxes.

I do appologize and am regretting posting on this touchy subject at all. But at the end of the day in my opinion putting goldfish and turtles in key chains is just WRONG. As well as somehow they figured out that they would last up to a month without feeding and water changes...

[cathyg_99]

I'm not trying to make light of the link it is wrong but it sounds like something you think of when your totally **** faced and stoned and your thinking outloud " keys are so boring we should make like goldfish keychains! "

[Wayne]

I'm not trying to make light of the link it is wrong but it sounds like something you think of when your totally **** faced and stoned and your thinking outloud " keys are so boring we should make like goldfish keychains! "

+1 :lol:

[zink12]

Number of acts of genocide in Darfur: 300,000
Ornamental gold fish in bags are the least of our worries as a species :neutral:.
because this is a tread about fish and not a tread about dardur.

[adamsarmywife]

Without stepping on anyone's toes
I don't think it makes it any more acceptable for the Chinese people to allow horrible things like this to happen just because we allow equally stupid things like betas in a cup to happen here. :redface:

I think this is disgusting, and people who are caught selling such things should be kept in a closet for a week with some nutrient rich air to see how it feels.

[MarkoD]

this is stupid for many reasons.

and you cant even clean the algae once it starts growing a few days later

[mws]

It's not any different to me then bettas in a plastic cups we look at in everystore in Canada, or puppies in a glass boxes in petland.
And yes China has a bigger problem them a goldfish in a key chain, just search Chinese live animals market or dogs for meat/fur trade.
How about a bonsai kitty? Fully operated business in New York City with website and phone#.And apparently there is a thing like appropriate Bonsai Kitticulture permits from the U.S. government from reading there website.http://www.ding.net/bonsaikitten/bkmethod.html

[MikeInToronto]

How about a bonsai kitty? Fully operated business in New York City with website and phone#.And apparently there is a thing like appropriate Bonsai Kitticulture permits from the U.S. government from reading there website.http://www.ding.net/bonsaikitten/bkmethod.html

The rest of your post seemed legit but you're being facetious here, right?

[viperfish]

I disagree with the puppies in the pet store, while I think pet stores who support puppy mills should lose their license, the display in the store is only a stopover and they can at least have a good quality of life once they go to their new home.
There are people out there who would disagree with us putting fish in tanks but I think the quality of these creatures existence is where the line needs to be drawn. There may come a time when the fate of entire species will depend on captivity, in fact there have been already. Practices like these "keychain fish" can kill off a species if it became a fad. It's not that long ago that you could go to craft stores and buy dried Seahorses, look where the Seahorse population is at right now.

[paddyob]

remember, what is acceptable in china's culture may not be acceptable in another. most lfs in canada have no problem selling a goldfish in a goldfish bowl.

if this was a betta keychain would that be ok?
small plastic cup or keychain?

Agree. We may not like it, but attacking a culture is sick itself.

Look at some of the tanks on here... lol. They may as well be keychains as well.

[Mrfish55]

Would make a great anytime snack, just boil for 2 min. And have instant poached fish or turtle soup. Mmmmmmmmm turtle soup. Makes a great appetizer to go with a Panda Bear steak.

[paddyob]

because this is a tread about fish and not a tread about dardur.

+1

[Zoaelite]

because this is a tread about fish and not a tread about dardur.
+1

I'm simply pointing out as a race we have quite a few downfalls prior to putting living animals in key chains for entertainment, sure it's horrendous but the slaughter of 300,000 individuals so we can have moderately priced gas is in it's own league.

Ohh and :welcome: to the board!

[paddyob]

I'm simply pointing out as a race we have quite a few downfalls prior to putting living animals in key chains for entertainment, sure it's horrendous but the slaughter of 300,000 individuals so we can have moderately priced gas is in it's own league.

Ohh and :welcome: to the board!

I agree with you on that aspect Levi... but I don't think people are concerned about Darfur (no offence meant) as there are more pressing things... like Libya.

Yes, it sucks this practice goes on. There are really, really poor practices here in Canada as well.

[Slick Fork]

While I understand the sentiment that there are more serious things than ziplock goldfish and turtles on keyrings in this world, I have difficulty dismissing this as something I shouldn't feel revolted about.

I also appreciate the idea that we shouldn't be attacking chinese culture, BUT... Chinese and (more broadly) Asian culture seems to have an enormous number of these traditions that are horribly destructive to the environment. Does anyone here remember the big fuss in Ontario in the 90's over poaching of black bears for their livers? Shark fin soup? Overfishing of Tuna and Japanese whaling ships? The list is seemingly endless, and this keychain thing is just one more item on said list. Where is the line between tolerating it because "it's their culture and they think it's acceptable" and acknowledging that these practices are incredibly barbaric and destructive and need to stop.

[don.ald]

not sure, but i dont see it as attacking another culture. we tend not to find it acceptable and thats ok. its also ok to speak out. as for shark fins and overfishing tuna. well, thats worldwide. including northamerica and euope.

aisans are not the only people that have distructive traditions. for example the whales. our first nations peps here on the west coast hunt whales for ceremonial purposes yearly. (although they use the carcus it is controversial)

our fishermen also shoot seals regularly while fishing.
what about seal hunts?
the list goes on. my point not just asians. pick any culture and you will find traditions or not, that are distructive.

While I understand the sentiment that there are more serious things than ziplock goldfish and turtles on keyrings in this world, I have difficulty dismissing this as something I shouldn't feel revolted about.

I also appreciate the idea that we shouldn't be attacking chinese culture, BUT... Chinese and (more broadly) Asian culture seems to have an enormous number of these traditions that are horribly destructive to the environment. Does anyone here remember the big fuss in Ontario in the 90's over poaching of black bears for their livers? Shark fin soup? Overfishing of Tuna and Japanese whaling ships? The list is seemingly endless, and this keychain thing is just one more item on said list. Where is the line between tolerating it because "it's their culture and they think it's acceptable" and acknowledging that these practices are incredibly barbaric and destructive and need to stop.

[Slick Fork]

not sure, but i dont see it as attacking another culture. we tend not to find it acceptable and thats ok. its also ok to speak out. as for shark fins and overfishing tuna. well, thats worldwide. including northamerica and euope.

aisans are not the only people that have distructive traditions. for example the whales. our first nations peps here on the west coast hunt whales for ceremonial purposes yearly. (although they use the carcus it is controversial)

our fishermen also shoot seals regularly while fishing.
what about seal hunts?
the list goes on. my point not just asians. pick any culture and you will find traditions or not, that are distructive.

No disagreement... every culture has it's dirty practices. However, North American and European cultures tend to have more of a social conscience with these things. You won't find many people in Calgary or New York (outside of the Asian communities) who would be really enthusiastic about having Shark fin soup, or Bear liver pills, or Rhino Horn powder, etc. Yet in Asia, the market for these things is enormous. I read a relatively recent national geographic article that discussed the illegal trade in endangered species parts, and the percentage of poaching due to the demand for traditional asian medicines was astonishing. Culturally, they seem to have a much lower respect or awareness about the impact they have on the planet than we do.

Native "ancestral" rights are a bit of a farce, but that's a whole other can of worms that I think we should steer clear of in this thread :twised:

Anyways, my beef is when we see something like this and call it for what it is, Barbaric, people get all upset and say it's their culture and we shouldn't criticize because we're not perfect ourselves.

[freezetyle]

It's not any different to me then bettas in a plastic cups we look at in everystore in Canada, or puppies in a glass boxes in petland.
And yes China has a bigger problem them a goldfish in a key chain, just search Chinese live animals market or dogs for meat/fur trade.
How about a bonsai kitty? Fully operated business in New York City with website and phone#.And apparently there is a thing like appropriate Bonsai Kitticulture permits from the U.S. government from reading there website.http://www.ding.net/bonsaikitten/bkmethod.html

you know that website is a joke right

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2001/02/41733

[daniella3d]

sounds like an hoax? this is nearly an impossible thing. The fish would die in a few hours or days...who would be dumb enough to buy this?

Hmmm.. does not look real.

This is completely unacceptable! I can't believe it's legal.

http://reeftools.com/news/key-chains-with-live-fish-and-turtles-terrible/

[Maverick00]

sounds like an hoax? this is nearly an impossible thing. The fish would die in a few hours or days...who would be dumb enough to buy this?

Hmmm.. does not look real.

that was my first impression as well, but was unable to find anything about a hoax. Hard to believe.

[MarkoD]

did you guys hear abou these house hippos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBfi8OEz0rA

[mws]

you know that website is a joke right

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2001/02/41733

Thanks for posting this, made me feel a lot better.

[RuGlu6]

So how come we don't have a problem with betta's in tiny little cups? Or goldfish fed as feederfish? Or kept in tiny fishbowls where the water is never changed? Or goldfish or bettas used a centre pieces in weddings.. afterwhich half are taken home to die, while the other half are flushed? Or the goldfish put in blenders or swallowed whole by 12 year old kids?

I'm not saying it's right... but advocating for the rights of maybe a few thousand goldfish sold in China is very low on my priority list compared to human injustices such as genocides, abuse of women, children, and the elderly, and religious persecution (which is quite a problem in China, BTW).

I appreciate the link to the article.... thats what Canreef is for, but lets not start lobbying for laws against crualty to goldfish, or we may end up with laws that restrict our hobby! Imagine going to jail for because you "neglected" your tank for too long and a fish died...

Just my two cents... :)

Yes exactly my point, how is what we do different? we are keepeing fish in small glass container with half dirty water, fish didnt have a say or a chance.
It has been taken out of its invironment and kept in prison for life.
Hipocrasy is North american way of life. what we do is ok because we think is ok. but not what they do is not ok lets bomb them and that is our way of helping others.

[Megalodon]

Yes exactly my point, how is what we do different?How is what we do different? Are you serious?

[Megalodon]

not too sure about cruelty side of entombing live animal inside keychains. look at all those oysters, clams and other live edibles placed live on ice in supermarkets waiting for human consumption. think their potential lifespan is no more than 4 to 5 days.lOysters and clams don't have brains so they can't experience pain or mystery. It's not right to do that to animals that can but at least it's for food.

[Megalodon]

So how come we don't have a problem with betta's in tiny little cups? Or goldfish fed as feederfish? Or kept in tiny fishbowls where the water is never changed? Or goldfish or bettas used a centre pieces in weddings.. afterwhich half are taken home to die, while the other half are flushed? Or the goldfish put in blenders or swallowed whole by 12 year old kids?We don't have a problem with these things, eh? Speak for yourself.

[Aquaria]

Oysters and clams don't have brains so they can't experience pain or mystery. It's not right to do that to animals that can but at least it's for food.

What about the lobsters and crabs? How about the tanks so full of fish they can only swim in one spot? I think your forgetting how bigsuperstores seafood section really is

[blaster]

I would take rhino horn powder if it made me grow hair on head

[Megalodon]

What about the lobsters and crabs? How about the tanks so full of fish they can only swim in one spot? I think your forgetting how bigsuperstores seafood section really isLike I said, it's not right to do that to animals with brains, but at least it's for food. In other words, it's bad but not as bad. I'm forgetting am I? Just the other day I was thinking of writing a story (I'm a writer) on the way live animals are treated in the seafood section of some grocery stores. I was wondering how long it would take me to get kicked out after whipping out my camera and taking pictures. Don't assume.

[Aquaria]

Like I said, it's not right to do that to animals with brains, but at least it's for food. In other words, it's bad but not as bad. I'm forgetting am I? Just the other day I was thinking of writing a story (I'm a writer) on the way live animals are treated in the seafood section of some grocery stores. I was wondering how long it would take me to get kicked out after whipping out my camera and taking pictures. Don't assume.

:) iv always had a prob with asumtions but anyway I give you 5 min flat maybe a dozen pics before security gets to you lol

[Myka]

remember, what is acceptable in china's culture may not be acceptable in another. most lfs in canada have no problem selling a goldfish in a goldfish bowl.

if this was a betta keychain would that be ok?
small plastic cup or keychain?

Good post.

[sphelps]

I don't get it, who wants a fish key chain? Can you feed the fish or change it's water?? Or is it actually permanently sealed meaning you'll be carrying around a dead fish with your keys? I think this problem will solve itself after about say 3 days....

[daniella3d]

while we're at it, what about the chickens that live all of their live stuck in a small cage with 2 individuals in it, so they can't move to waste any energy and fat and all they do all day long is eat and pick at each other eyes?

just wondering but do you still eat chicken?

Like I said, it's not right to do that to animals with brains, but at least it's for food. In other words, it's bad but not as bad. I'm forgetting am I? Just the other day I was thinking of writing a story (I'm a writer) on the way live animals are treated in the seafood section of some grocery stores. I was wondering how long it would take me to get kicked out after whipping out my camera and taking pictures. Don't assume.

[jon.smolders]

I don't think crualty to fish or turtles (any animals) for entertainment purposes is right (food is a different story), and there are moral problems and hypocrisy both in our culture and in others in this respect.

I think what I was reacting to in my first post was whether or not it should be legal. Do we really need laws against crualty to goldfish? Maybe against the commercial sale of fish kept in inhumane conditions... but then do we really want that? Would it interfere with or hinder a LFS's ability to exist? Or would it just force them to keep their tanks clean? I don't really know... it just seems like we have too many laws and restrictions in this country as it is and when something goes wrong, we blame the government.

What we want to know is "why is this happening?"
- Is the problem the governments for allowing it?
- Is the retailer to blame for being greedy and trying to turn a profit with no regard for ethics?
- Is it the consumer and their materialistic obsession for entertainment?
- Or a combination?

The solutions
- Education: Maybe we just need to set up more aquariums and get more people into the hobby so the general public gets up to speed on the proper way to care for aquatic life. :)
- Moral Reform: A lot of this stems from greed, selfishness, a lack of respect for creation, ect.
- Laws: Crack down on the idiots until they get the point and stop it. But... this doesn't always work. Example: Speeding tickets.
- Let is play out: As sphelps pointed out... the problem might just take care of itself as soon as people end up with dead fish or turles after three days.

[Pinnochio5]

I agree with most to you in the regard about the goldfish, and we should really look at the way they are treated in our country before we look at anyone else.

But what about the turtles, they are put in the oxygen-less plastic bag with what appears to be orange kool-aid. Come on. Thats just sick. I have no doubts that they are dying with a few hours. Maybe even some of them are being sold dead.

Anybody travelling to China soon? Buy all the turtles and cut open the bags and set em free. :mrgreen:

my two cents.

[Megalodon]

while we're at it, what about the chickens that live all of their live stuck in a small cage with 2 individuals in it, so they can't move to waste any energy and fat and all they do all day long is eat and pick at each other eyes?

just wondering but do you still eat chicken?I eat free-range chicken and eggs most the time, if not, in the very least, free run.

All Lilydale's chickens are free-run. I've been to such a facility and never saw any debeaked chickens picking at each other's eyes with their non-existent beaks. (How to chickens without beaks pick at each other's eyes anyway?)

The whole 'two wrongs make a right' and 'guilt by association' arguments are asinine anyway. Animal abuse should know no borders.

"How are the chickens Lilydale uses treated?
All birds raised for Lilydale are raised in controlled barns where they have free range of the entire barn. The number of birds to square footage is controlled to allow the best conditions. The birds are not kept in cages or treated poorly."

http://lilydale.com/article/articleItem.cfm?cms_article_id=3

[Megalodon]

Read the National Farm Animal Care Council's website ... http://www.nfacc.ca/codes-of-practice

We still have a way to go, but if anyone thinks we treat animals just as poorly as China, they have something wrong with them.

[DCDN]

We can state that it is inhumane to take a creature and put it into such a condition. Though this hobby is about that. We can argue about the right size of a tank for a tang. Yet to someone outside this community could easily argue that the ocean and free range can never be recreated in a tank. Is a 6 foot tank really that much better than a 4 foot tank or is it just a way to justify it to ourselves. By no means to I feel putting a fish into a key chain is acceptable. However I realise that I have taken living creatures away from their natural habbitat. I can try to justify it to myself by stating my fish live in better water than I drink and such things as trying to provide the best environment for them. This can not truely compare to where they were taken out of the ocean. A goldfish in a key chain compared to a tang in a 6 foot tank could be the same arguement.

[Megalodon]

Is a 6 foot tank really that much better than a 4 foot tank or is it just a way to justify it to ourselves.That's totally different than putting an air-breathing turtle in a little sealed bag and jangling it around on the end of a key chain. What we do is strive to keep our pets happy in an environment where they can not only survive but thrive. This is doing nothing but guaranteeing death and suffering for a quick buck from an uninformed impulse buyer.

[DCDN]

That's totally different than putting an air-breathing turtle in a little sealed bag and jangling it around on the end of a key chain. What we do is strive to keep our pets happy in an environment where they can not only survive but thrive. This is doing nothing but guaranteeing death and suffering for a quick buck from an uninformed impulse buyer.

Its not completely different, its just at a different point along the spectrum. Go outside the aquarium community and ask people such as Snorkel Bob about the aquaruim trade and you would get the same reaction. Taking a creature out of its natural enviroment where it can swim a hundred feet at a time and putting it into a small glass box. Could make the same arguement. Putting a creature into a small bag for a keychain disgusts me personally. It is important to remember there are those that say the same thing about out glass boxes.

[Madreefer]

I did a search on this and could'nt find anything current on this. It is all from 2008. This topic is in the wrong board. Should be moved to the lounge and it is also rumored to be a hoax. Unfortunately there is nothing that we can do about it if it is true. We all seem to have the same opinion on this topic. It's already gone off topic as it's turned to chickens and attacking other cultures. Just be proud of where and how we live knowing that when there is cruelty to animals that something is done about it. ie: sled dogs in Whistler

[Megalodon]

I did a search on this and could'nt find anything current on this. It is all from 2008. This topic is in the wrong board. Should be moved to the lounge and it is also rumored to be a hoax. Unfortunately there is nothing that we can do about it if it is true. We all seem to have the same opinion on this topic. It's already gone off topic as it's turned to chickens and attacking other cultures. Just be proud of where and how we live knowing that when there is cruelty to animals that something is done about it. ie: sled dogs in WhistlerOf course there's a spectrum, that's what I want several people in this thread to understand, especially the one's saying this is exactly the same as what we do, when it isn't. Further to that spectrum, we can place treatment of pets into three different categories; ones which cannot survive, ones that can survive but not thrive, and ones that can both survive and thrive. Anyone who cannot do the latter shouldn't be in this hobby.