fish dying (long Post)

[pirate]

Well Its gonna look like I'm gonna lose another fish some time soon. He was fine during the day (bengaii cardnel) sleeping and swiming as he usually does, hiding in the corner away from the light. Well its time to head to bed now and he is lying in the same corner on the sand bed breathing hard :cry:. At the beginning of the week I lost my male clown fish :cry:, and some time befor that I lost a yellow tail damsel :cry:. My clown did the same thing before he passed away. The yellow tail not to sure when he went missing. Just quite seeing him.
I tried feeding him and he has no appitite, all the other came out though. I tried feeding the clown as well but no dice. So its starting to look like I've lost 3 in about a weeks time.
None of the other fish look stressed out, all are eating well. I did a 5 gallon water change today. Checked all the parameters nothing out of order except now I have some ammonia showing

What I can test



ph 7.5
ammonia is 0.6 or less
No2 0
No3 0
Sg 1.022-1.023
Temp 80F

I feed once a day,
Dry
pellets (1) new life spectrum
(2) Omega one shrimp
flakes (1) Omega one
And some veggie rounds. I tried some freeze dried shrimp but no one liked them

Frozen
San francisco -Angel and butterfly
-Marine Quisine
H2O life Carnivoir and omnivoirs
And some kind of brine/mysis shrimp flat pack.
As well as a sheet of green and a sheet of red nori.

I don't dose much of anything some phytomax and lugol about 1 a month if I rember.:redface:

The last fish I added is doing good added him about a month ago (red scouter) and befor that nothing for 3-4 months for fish, some coral.

I'm still using tap water :cry: ( need to finish installing my rodi), and an battling a algae problem. So I am running 2 tlf 150 with a bit of rowa phos in them. These were the last thing to change in my tank, just started to use them so I've turned them off, hoping things will change for the fish. Not caring about the algae.

More about the system (been up and running for about 6-7 months)
150g with a 25g (water volume)or so sump, I have a skimmer running. But I don't have enough water turn over, so I have 4 korolia 3. For tank mates I have
1 clown
1 red scoter blennie
1 yellow tail damsel
3 green chromis
1 yellow hawain tang (3-4 ")
1 domino damsel (2-3")
1 Sailfin tang (3-4")
1 Hippo tang (3-4")
1 watchmen gobi/tiger pistol shrimp pair
1 long spine unchin
1 peperment shrimp
and cuc.

So whats going on? Is there something in the water now that they have removed floride from our water in Calgary? Something in the water in the NE? :question:

I don't want to lose any more fish. Most of them I've gotten when they are big, but I've had the clown and the bengaii for over a year now, got them when they were very small.

Well that is my tale of woe. Any insite would be very helpful.
Cheers

[MitchM]

PH is too low.
Ammonia should be zero ( how long are dying animals staying in your tank?) Look for that yellow tail damsel. That ammonia number says it's in there somewhere decaying. Get him out of there asap.
SG is low (should be closer to 1.026)
Change out more than 5g at at time. You should be changing 10 - 20% each month. You have a high bio load and you're feeding quite a lot.
Make sure you have a lot of surface water movement. How slow is your turnover?
What are your calcium, magnesium and alk numbers like?
Which salt are you using?
What is your regular maintenance schedule?
Do you have any sand and are you cleaning it regularly?
Are you running any carbon?

(not that it matters, but Calgary still has fluoride, it will take probably a year before they stop adding it)

[hillegom]

Do you use a quarantine tank when adding new fish/corals?
If not do you at least use a dip for new arrivals? If yes, what are you using?
Its quite possible some pathogen came in with your last fish.
And now with some of your water parameters not quite in line, your fish haveing been stressed, they are getting sick

[pinhead]

If they are fine during the day but are dead in the morning it is not your water parameters.

I would think that the oxygen levels are too low at night as the Corals and Macroalgae switch from photosynthesis to respiration. During the day they are using Carbon dioxide and producing oyxgen and at night the reverse occurs. The carbon dioxide produced at night is the reason pH also fluctuates between day or night.

Without an easy way to measure oxygen levels, the simple solution is to run an airstone at night or point some extra powerheads at the surface of the water for better gas exchange and into the rocks to prevent areas of low oxygen.

Try these simple solutions before you worry about your water.

[pirate]

Filled in the blanks

PH is too low. - How do I bring up the PH? (It was tested at 330 am light out at 9PM)
Ammonia should be zero ( how long are dying animals staying in your tank?) Look for that yellow tail damsel. That ammonia number says it's in there somewhere decaying. Get him out of there asap. - I've been looking for him but there is just no sign of him. I've moved most of my rock work and no dice. I'll go back in and se if I can find him
SG is low (should be closer to 1.026)
Change out more than 5g at at time. You should be changing 10 - 20% each month. _ I do 5g a week, so 20g a month
You have a high bio load and you're feeding quite a lot. - I dont feed all of that, I mix it up daily.
Make sure you have a lot of surface water movement. How slow is your turnover? - not too sure on the turn over maybe 1-2x. I am hoping to have the last of my peices to fix that this set of days off. I have lots of surface movement, but I'll try and point one of the k3 from the bottom to the top.
What are your calcium, magnesium and alk numbers like? - I dont have a test kit for these yet.:cry:
Which salt are you using? - IO
What is your regular maintenance schedule? - weekley 5g water change, befor and after each shift. Cleaning during that time.
Do you have any sand and are you cleaning it regularly? - Approx 1" unless the fish/pistol move it, but then I level it out.
Are you running any carbon? - I did but the tangs got more stressed out from it. They were always hiding, I set it up again to to see if it helps.

(not that it matters, but Calgary still has fluoride, it will take probably a year before they stop adding it)


I use tectra-d for a coral dip, I don't have any way of quarentine corals so I did them and in they go. I do a fresh water for the fish. I use to quartine but I was loosing more of them then I liked too. Sinse adding them after a fresh water dip they seem to do much better. Havent lost a fish till this happened...

Everthing in the tank looks good during the day all the coral is out and in full bloom :biggrin:. The fish are all out and swimming looking happy, and they all eat like pigs when I feed them. I think if the fish were all stressed out the would all be showing sign of it. There is ICK in the tank thanks to one of the tangs but no one has it at the monent.

I'll try and reposition a power head from the bottom of the tank to point more at the top, I don't think there is much areas of low flow in the tank as I got one of the K3 pointing at the back of all the rock work.

Thanks

[gobytron]

can you describeyour freshwater dip process for new fish?

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

I will have to agree on this one.
Your ph is way low,so you are creating very high co2 in the evening depleting the oxygen from the tank,killing your fish.
Place an air stone for the evening or have an airline running from the intake of one or more of your power head simply to add lots of oxygen back into your tank.
Do you run a calcium carbonate reactor check for a leek into your tank of co2.
If it's not the case It would simply not enough aeration or agitation of your water surface.

If they are fine during the day but are dead in the morning it is not your water parameters.

I would think that the oxygen levels are too low at night as the Corals and Macroalgae switch from photosynthesis to respiration. During the day they are using Carbon dioxide and producing oyxgen and at night the reverse occurs. The carbon dioxide produced at night is the reason pH also fluctuates between day or night.

Without an easy way to measure oxygen levels, the simple solution is to run an airstone at night or point some extra powerheads at the surface of the water for better gas exchange and into the rocks to prevent areas of low oxygen.

Try these simple solutions before you worry about your water.

[pirate]

Ok I found a large dead snail in my tank still no yellow tail. I have no co2 tank at all. Its a very simple system. PH right now is 8-8.5. is it still to low? How do I raise it?
For my fresh water dip I get the temp the same as my tank and put the new fish into the water ( water stands for a day or more, taken from my ato tank) And he stays for approx 5 mins.
I've aimed a power head from the bottom of the tank to the surface.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

how did you raise your ph so fast and what did you do.just to have a better understanding that the ph was the problem.
try testing your ph in the morning before the lights come on and then a couple hours before lights out.

[MitchM]

So a few things going on here - I think all advice given so far is correct.
Measuring at 3:30 A.M. is probably when your PH reading is at it's lowest. For comparison purposes, try to take readings at the same time each day.
If you're only using IO without any other supplements, you don't have much buffering capacity to keep water parameters relatively stable when things decay or deaths go undetected.
Combine that with low gas exchange and that's the right combination for the deaths you're seeing, plus possibly some swings in PH, depending on the accuracy of the PH test method you're using.
Are you treating your tap water before you mix and add your new salt water?

I would suggest so far:
-Increase surface water movement
-Invest in some additional kits mag, cal, alk and test for those parameters
-Test at the same time of day each time you test
-Remove dead animals and detritus buildup as soon as possible

You might want to do a large water change (20% or so) to help get that ammonia number down to zero.

[pirate]

Well Ive moved some power heads around hoping to have more surface agiation. I usually treat the water with prime. I've noticed that when I have the tfl reactors running everone seems more freaked out, does not mater what I seem to run in them Carbon or rowaphas. Is there some thing that I can do if I start seeing other fish doing the same thing?

[MitchM]

If the fish are already stressed from ammonia being present, low gas exchange and PH swings, seemingly little things can set them off.

[pirate]

Well my female clown looks like she has what ever the tank has now. I've netted her and looked at her very closely, and it appears that her fins have been nipped at the ends. She is breathing hard so I have her at the top of the tank in a floating baby habitat. Does this help in any way in diagonising what is going on in my tank. When I get up this afteroon I am going to take a sample into the lfs and see what is going on in my tyank and I'll post up the numbers. All the other fishes in the tank are still doing good but..... I thought that about her as well.
Dam I hate this.

[MitchM]

Can you test what your PH and ammonia is at now?

[bvlester]

do you vacuum your sand bed? I just finish helping a new guy get over this out here. He never vacuumed his sand bed to get rid of the decaying matter. with frequent vacuuming and water changes his tank is now doing fine. It is a Co2 issue you are battling IMO. I would Vacuum your sand bed a few times really good you will be surprised at what you will pull out and go right down to the glass not just the top layer. Basically when you let your sand bed deteriorate it gets compacted and it suffocates, this in turn kills the bacteria in it and makes your tank test results even worse.

Bill

[MitchM]

Bill, are you not concerned about the ammonia level in a 7 or 8 month old tank?
I think if it was a CO2 issue that would have been addressed by the redirection of the powerhead last night.
Ammonia will cause irritated gills and gasping for air.

I agree with you that the sandbed could be a problem if it is not being cleaned regularly.

I think that he should temporarily stop feeding his fish and do enough large daily water changes (20%) until the ammonia level is back down to zero.
Vacuuming the sandbed at that time would be prudent.

[untamed]

Ammonia is a quick and effective killer. Makes sense to me that the ammonia will kill a fish at night when O2 levels are lowest. You should never be able to detect ammonia in a mature aquarium. Double check with a new test kit.

If you have verified ammonia level in the system, I don't see any point in chasing any other problem. If present, it indicates that the bacteria of the aquarium has been overwhelmed by something rotting, or by a cleaning you've done recently.

[pirate]

Ok I just got back from the closest lfs to me
Ammiona is less then 0.2
Nirtrate was showing on the chart but I forgot the number but it was right near the bottom
Ph I just tested and its up near 9. I test twice to make sure.
How do I lower this number? It appears to be my problem.

[MitchM]

Do a large water change.

Before you add in the new water, check it's PH.
Which kits are you using?

[pirate]

I'm using hagen and nutrafin test kits (ammonia is a nutrafin kit). I know I need better ones but so far they have been good. So I thought you guys were going to tell me to do a large water change so I got set up last night to do one befor I went ot work. Well I tested it and it has a high PH value as well It matches my tank almost perefectly. So did I get a bad batch of IO? Is IO a high PH value? Will it come down on its own? If not how do I lower it then? I just started using this salt the other bucket ended and I opened it up and all my troubles have started it seemes. Not too sure when it happened to me using the new IO salt. I got it on boxing day.
Thanks for all the help so far I really appreciate it.

[MitchM]

Glad to help. That's what this board's good for.:smile:

I would disregard the PH numbers for now if you're getting the same reading in newly made up salt water. Your kit could be out a bit.
I would concentrate on diluting the ammonia down as much as you can.
How much water can you change at a time?
Don't feed the fish as that will just cause them to produce more ammonia.

[daniella3d]

Ammonia at high PH kill very very fast. It burn the gill and the fish suffocate.

You should first ALWAYS use RO water as tap water can contain chloramine and if you use a standard dechlorinator or only aerate the water for a day, then the chloramine is still there and will kill. If you use a standard dechlorinator then only the chlorine part is removed leaving the ammonia behind to kill your fish. That does not include anything that the water company can run through, like some desinfectant that can end up in your tank. Bad bad idea to invest in a 150 gallons tank and a lot of fish but go cheap on a 100$ Ro unit.

You should lower your temperature to 77F so that your fish have some break with the dissolved oxygen. You should buy some Seachem Prime and put some in your tank to IMMEDIATLY neutralize the ammonia. Put it every 24 hours until your ammonia is down to normal.

Your out of wack PH might indicate that your KH is low. At a normal KH the PH should be more stable.

And last but not least, your fish could have marine velvet if you recently introduced something new. It might not show on the outside of the fish and only be on he gills and kill your fish. The fact that your fish go sick one after the other is pretty much representative of a contagious disease like marine velvet.

[pirate]

Well I can change 5G at a time. I havent feed the tank in the last 2 days,and am now waiting for tomorrow to do my tests again. But the ammionia really has not changed with all the water changes that I've done, (20G in the last 4 days).
I did not cheap out on a ro unit. I am in process of installing the unit in my house. I had my other tank running for over a year on tap water with out issues. I have added prime and stablity to the water. My PH is high even in freshly made water.
With marine velvet would you not have all of them showing signs of it? Not just one at a time? The last fish I added is still doing very well, and is showing no signs of anything.
I will lower the temp down and see if that makes a difference. I will go and get a KH test kit on my days off and test it.

I've been reading on the net that to lower HIGH PH you can add vinager or lemon juice. Is this a wise thing to try? Just asking before I add anything like this to my reef. Lower PH will mean that my amionia will be in the safer range for my fish as I try to get it all out of my tank again. I know that it is a temporary solution but......

Thanks once again

[MitchM]

I think you're on the right track.
I'm pretty sure that Calgary doesn't use chloramine, their water report only mentions chlorine.
Even if they did use chloramine, the Prime would bind the ammonia.
Lowering the temp is a good idea.
I wouldn't try to force the PH down.
Larger water changes would be better, but you can only do what you can do.
I don't know if adding more Prime to the main tank would immediately lower the ammonia, but it sounds like it's worth looking into.

[larishowen]

Pirate dont be so angry on the fish.I hope it will be a good in sometimes.There is nothing so much worried about the fish.I need to suggest you that you should call the doctor for these purpose.They will give you all information regarding your fish.

[Oxymoron]

Pirate dont be so angry on the fish.I hope it will be a good in sometimes.There is nothing so much worried about the fish.I need to suggest you that you should call the doctor for these purpose.They will give you all information regarding your fish.


Some solid advice there ^^:lol: