Help: New Butterfly with Ich. FML.

[ScubaSteve]

So yesterday I picked up a longnose butterfly from another member. Brought him home, got him set up with a nice long acclimation and watched him for several hours. He was happy, perky, eating like crazy and not showing any signs of distress. Best of all, he was a perfect specimen with no signs of anything. Seeing as how I don't necessarily have the space for a quarantine, observation is really my only option.

I made sure the lights were off when I added him to the tank and there isn't anyone there to harass him. My blenny checked him out for a bit then left him alone. The butterfly seemed happy enough, zipping around my tank demolishing every tube worm it could find, ate some more mysis... all was well! It seemed fairly awake at midnight last night... I assume just having trouble the first night in a new tank.

Well, I woke up this morning and BAM!, f***ing ich on the new butterfly. F*** me! I'd call it a moderate infection.

So, I've never had to deal with ich before as I keep my water clean, don't stress my fish, avoid the ich-magnets and well.... I've been lucky. This guy is in a full reef so I can't treat the tank. I've been reading about all the different options and don't necessarily see a solution that is going to work for me, aside from building a quarantine (really, really not the preferred option right now).

What should I do here? Advice please.

[Aquattro]

Do nothing. Feed it well, let it settle in. See what happens. Maybe add fresh garlic to some mysis. Thaw mysis, squish really well in paper towel to get out moisture, then smother with freshly crushed garlic. It's what I do, always works for me and I've never lost a fish to ich...

[The Grizz]

+1 what Aquattro siad, a cleaner wrasse or shrimp would be a good investment as well. My cleaner wrasse that I got for all places, Pieces in Calgary is a workhorse. Keep ALL my fish nice and clean even my clowns and a checkerboard wrasse.

[BlazingArrow]

That sucks dude, hopefully it's just the stress of the tank move. Hopefully it will recover well!

[ScubaSteve]

Ya, I've got a pair of cleaner shrimp. Hopefully they'll take good care of it.

[Delphinus]

Do nothing. Feed it well, let it settle in. See what happens. Maybe add fresh garlic to some mysis. Thaw mysis, squish really well in paper towel to get out moisture, then smother with freshly crushed garlic. It's what I do, always works for me and I've never lost a fish to ich...

Brad do you let the crushed garlic go into the tank with the mysis or do you do anything to separate it before adding to the tank?

My guess here is the stress of the new tank is what brought it on, as long as the fish remains eating and nobody is picking on him it should go away. Some fish are more prone to ich than others. My lavender tang seems to have about a half dozen spots that come and go and it's been well over a year. I put some cleaner shrimp in and he's all too happy to let them work their magic on him so time will tell if that makes a difference down the road but for the most part managing ich is all about managing good water quality, peaceful tankmates and good food quality so that the fish's own immune response and slime coat become enough to repel the ich on the next go-round of the ich cycle. It's been a real mind-blow for me in this last year as previously in 12 years or whatever it's been now for me of running SW fish tanks I've been lucky in that ich went away on new arrivals within a week and now I'm adjusting myself to thinking that chronic ich seems less of a panic button item than other ailments. :neutral:

[Aquattro]

Brad do you let the crushed garlic go into the tank with the mysis or do you do anything to separate it before adding to the tank?



I don't worry about chunks, in or out. Essentially I want the dry mysis to soak up as much oil as possible. Then the whole mix goes in. It's easier with tangs, since the nori acts like a sponge, I just crush the garlic on a sheet and wipe it around, then given the nori a shake to get rid of any bigger chunks.
My hippo woke up one morning with a masive outbreak just after getting her, and this is the approach I took. Today I have a very happy healthy hippo tang.

[George]

I don't think cleaner shrimps or cleaner wrasses can do anything to ich. They mainly pick up dead skin or left over food in the mouth of a fish.
Garlic may or may not help.
Sometime people reported that they added this and that and the ich went away. Well, ich just doesn't simply go away. Most likely they are still attaching to some fish but just don't cause an outbreak yet.
If you don't want to set up a hospital tank, then avoiding any stress on the fish is the best option. Feed it well, no aggressive fish. Stable parameters. Hopefully the fish can fight off the outbreak.

[ScubaSteve]

Frankly, I agree with you but I'm willing to try anything. The ich parasite is in my reef, simple as that. The only way I'm getting it out of there is by treating the whole tank or running fishless for quite a while, neither of which are really an option for me. So, just like that present BlazingArrow got from that "Lady of the night" in Tijauana, all I can do is find ways of minimizing the flair ups and helpin the fish fight it off. If only there was a Valtrax for marine ich...

[The Grizz]

I don't think cleaner shrimps or cleaner wrasses can do anything to ich. They mainly pick up dead skin or left over food in the mouth of a fish.
Garlic may or may not help.
Sometime people reported that they added this and that and the ich went away. Well, ich just doesn't simply go away. Most likely they are still attaching to some fish but just don't cause an outbreak yet.
If you don't want to set up a hospital tank, then avoiding any stress on the fish is the best option. Feed it well, no aggressive fish. Stable parameters. Hopefully the fish can fight off the outbreak.

I beg to differ with you there, my cleaner wrasse took care a a case of ick on my Regal in one day. And garlic is a big help to keep all fish healthy.

[daniella3d]

yes maybe but you still have ich in your tank and if the situation get bad and the fish stressed, they will get ick again. Ick does not get away on its own. It's still on your fish gills and only waiting for the right moment to pop out.

I beg to differ with you there, my cleaner wrasse took care a a case of ick on my Regal in one day. And garlic is a big help to keep all fish healthy.

[naesco]

Follow the advice of Grizz, Aquatrro and Delphius.
The idea is to get as much garlic into the Butterfly as possible and the other fish. Feed very often and only garlic soaked food.
A product called Garlic Extreme works best and you can avoid the fuss and smell of fresh garlic if you choose.

[George]

I don't think cleaner shrimps or cleaner wrasses can do anything to ich. They mainly pick up dead skin or left over food in the mouth of a fish.
Garlic may or may not help.
Sometime people reported that they added this and that and the ich went away. Well, ich just doesn't simply go away. Most likely they are still attaching to some fish but just don't cause an outbreak yet.
If you don't want to set up a hospital tank, then avoiding any stress on the fish is the best option. Feed it well, no aggressive fish. Stable parameters. Hopefully the fish can fight off the outbreak.

I beg to differ with you there, my cleaner wrasse took care a a case of ick on my Regal in one day. And garlic is a big help to keep all fish healthy.

Well..the life cycle of marine ich is very well studied and understood. There are 3 stages to it, the first stage it bores under the skin or gills of a fish. The second stage it falls off the fish and turns into a cyst. The third stage it breaks out of the cyst and becomes a free swiming parasite. If it can't find a host in the 3rd stage within a few days, it dies.
In the first 2 stages, no current medicine can kill it because it is well protected. That's why I believe cleaner shrimps or clean wrasses can't do a damn thing about it either when ich is in those stages. They can't do anything about free swimming ich either.
If sign of ich goes away without using any medicine, kudos to you for keeping the fish stress free and avoiding another outbreak.

[ScubaSteve]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll give it all a try. George, you are correct about the life cycle of ich. Other than treating the entire tank the only I can do is just keep the fish healthy to fight it and prevent it from getting a foot hold. If the cleaners can remove the parasite before it burrows and the garlic can help prevent it from sticking around it may be possible to starve it out.

The tank is pretty low stress as only chilled out fish are allowed. There is only a mandarin (chill), goby (chill) and a blenny (a little yellow Buddha reincarnate). Whether or not the fish likes his new digs remains to be seen.

[The Grizz]

Yes I am very aware of all this info, all I was saying is what works well for me. I have only had one major outbreak of ice in the 8'er in the year it has been running. I have made many changes inside the tank and added new fish often without issues. All my food I feed be it pellet or Mysis is garlic enriched and my cleaner wrasse keeps all the tangs clean. That's all.

[Delphinus]

Unfortunately I feel very strongly about cleaner wrasses in captivity, and I say "unfortunately" because it's really too bad I love that fish! If you've ever seen Hawaiian cleaner wrasses they will take your breath away. But not only do cleaner wrasses fare poorly in captivity, it's a double edged sword because it means a cleaner station was "taken offline" so to speak in the wild and this probably does more harm than we can imagine. In the case of cleaner shrimp this is probably true to a lesser extent but it's also mitigated by the fact that cleaner shrimp have millions of babies every couple of weeks so for every adult removed from the wild it means one more of the millions that might not have survived now gets a chance to take their place instead. Cleaner wrasses on the other hand spawn less frequently and the cleaner stations will only have 2 or 3 of these fish and once they're gone they're gone. It sucks, but if we have any love or respect of the reef at all we have to be disciplined and leave cleaner wrasses in the wild, some species we have to draw the line on and say "not in my tank" even if it means we lose out on value inside our own captive reef.

As for cleaners vs ich, I would venture that there is still some value even if they do nothing to the ich life cycle itself. When I see a fish with ich it very often tries to scratch against different surfaces and this risks injury or lessens the slime coat which in turn opens the door for escalation. Whereas cleaner shrimp do their thing and it must feel good since a fish who recognizes what a cleaner does will seek it out and I suspect it's a little more surgical than random rock scraping. Sort of like how a hot bath doesn't cure a cold or the sniffles but you feel better anyhow after one and any little bit helps.

Just my thoughts based on maybe nothing in particular, thanks for listening :)

[reefwars]

Follow the advice of Grizz, Aquatrro and Delphius.
The idea is to get as much garlic into the Butterfly as possible and the other fish. Feed very often and only garlic soaked food.
A product called Garlic Extreme works best and you can avoid the fuss and smell of fresh garlic if you choose.


cant argue with this:):)

[The Grizz]

I do agree with all that Tony, my main reason for my cleaner wrasse is that I seen it at Pieces when I was there getting bones for my Huskies. They had it in there one coral tank and was looking some what skinny. So I decided to bring it home and see if I could lengthen it's life, also refused to pay full price of it just for that fact. Now he is looking so good, very active, swims around with my checker board wrasse, eats pellets & flake and have even seen him pick at some algea and even Mysis too.

[reefwars]

Unfortunately I feel very strongly about cleaner wrasses in captivity, and I say "unfortunately" because it's really too bad I love that fish! If you've ever seen Hawaiian cleaner wrasses they will take your breath away. But not only do cleaner wrasses fare poorly in captivity, it's a double edged sword because it means a cleaner station was "taken offline" so to speak in the wild and this probably does more harm than we can imagine. In the case of cleaner shrimp this is probably true to a lesser extent but it's also mitigated by the fact that cleaner shrimp have millions of babies every couple of weeks so for every adult removed from the wild it means one more of the millions that might not have survived now gets a chance to take their place instead. Cleaner wrasses on the other hand spawn less frequently and the cleaner stations will only have 2 or 3 of these fish and once they're gone they're gone. It sucks, but if we have any love or respect of the reef at all we have to be disciplined and leave cleaner wrasses in the wild, some species we have to draw the line on and say "not in my tank" even if it means we lose out on value inside our own captive reef.

As for cleaners vs ich, I would venture that there is still some value even if they do nothing to the ich life cycle itself. When I see a fish with ich it very often tries to scratch against different surfaces and this risks injury or lessens the slime coat which in turn opens the door for escalation. Whereas cleaner shrimp do their thing and it must feel good since a fish who recognizes what a cleaner does will seek it out and I suspect it's a little more surgical than random rock scraping. Sort of like how a hot bath doesn't cure a cold or the sniffles but you feel better anyhow after one and any little bit helps.

Just my thoughts based on maybe nothing in particular, thanks for listening :)



agreed cleaner wrasses up and die even when they are eating healthy and doing well for years, i lost mine after i had him for over a year.....died during water change:( looked completely healthy and was eating like a champ.cleaner shrimp are a better choice for sure:):)and i agree if they werent doing anything alot of fish would just eat them when they came close but its not the case ive seen them in the mouths or morays and ive seen fish looking for the cleaners:):)

[The Grizz]

I would have some cleaner shrimp to but something, have no idea what, has a taste for all the shrimp I have put in my tank even a huge coral banded shrimp.

[Delphinus]

I remember you saying that. Wonder who it could be.. do you have any hermits, are they goners too?

[The Grizz]

Have several hermit crabs, have not lost any of them.

[ScubaSteve]

So a bit of update. If fed the butterfly and my other fish mysis and pellets soaked in garlic (with some garlic chucks) last night and they all gobbled it up. I woke up this morning and the butterfly was significantly better. He only had a couple of remaining white spots on his fins; far better than yesterdays tip to tail ordeal. Was it the fish fighting it, the garlic, the cleaner shrimp? We'll see how quickly he gets over it and whether is comes back.

Thanks for the advice guys!

[The Grizz]

Good to hear, by tomorrow there should be no sign of it at all. Keep feeding with garlic your fish will love it.

[Judy Waytiuk]

Can you give us an update now? How is the butterfly? I ask because I have a powder blue that's infested (everyone else in the tank is utterly healthy) and have just put some nori and pellets into bowls to soak in garlic overnight...

[ScubaSteve]

He's happy as a clam... Errr, happy as a fish?.... The ich still comes and goes though. It seems that after a week of heavy feeding ( to reduce stress) it came back pretty bad. Big water change and it was gone. The ich flair up could have been due to the polluted water from overfeeding or it could have just been coincidal with the natural cycle of the parasite. Dunno. Either way, a water change seemed to help.

I also stopped feeding with garlic for a bit. BAM! Ich! I've stepped up feedin with garlic again and it seems to help. I've found that Spike won't take the food of there are garlic chunks... He just nibbles and then spits the food out. I've started slicing the garlic and adding it to boiled RO/DI and letting it cool... Basically making my own garlic extract. I'll remove the garlic with a strainer and then add the food to the extract and let it soak for several hours. I then drain the garlic water and freeze the food. He goes bananas for this stuff and it seems to do the trick.

[cwatkins]

That sounds like a lot of work. I eventually switched to Garlic Extreme. I think it was like only $8 or something like that. Man that stuff is concentrated and powerful.

[Judy Waytiuk]

The tang I'm having the problem with only eats nori-- so I have some sheets soaking in chopped garlic with some tank water in a bowl, and will start feeding that tomorrow...
fridge reeks of garlic now...

[mws]

I just moved everyone to a bigger tank and most fish are showing sings of ich from stress of moving.
I started Marc Weiss Immuno-Vital and garlic socked food. I find from previous times both help, but it will be a long battle, over next two months it will come and go. I do have a neon goby who cleans fish but the problem is he is looking the worst out of all of them, as no one cleans him.

[ScubaSteve]

Sigh... I don't get this fish man. I love this guy, he has great personality and he's a total blast to hang out with. He even "plays" with me! Definitely one of the best fish I've had. Except...

His ich just keep getting worse (or at least no better). The ich goes away, comes back, goes away, comes back... Today it's back with a vengence.

He seems to be settling in a little better (at least when I'm around) when the ich is gone. He swims around, poke at the rocks and eats like a pig. When it's back he's pretty restless and twitchy. If I sneak into the room so he doesn't see me (when he's battling ich) I can see him swimming up and down the glass. I take this as a sign of stress. So, I can't figure out if he's stressed because of the ich, or if he's battling ich because he's stressed because he doesn't like his tank...?

There's no one around to bother him (just a goby, mandarin and blenny, all of whom are peaceful... and a couple cleaner shrimp). Any ideas on this guy? Just an ich magnet or something else?

[Judy Waytiuk]

sadly, my powder blue succumbed... your butterfly may also. I have come to the conclusion that the experts are right: there is no magic bullet for marine ich other than removing all the fish from the display tank, leaving it fishless for at least two months (or more), and treating all the fish in a QT tank during that time with copper meds.
i just hope i do not see a single speck of ich on any of the other fish! so far, the powder blue was the onyl fish in the tank to show ANY sign!

[The Grizz]

Something is stressing it out big time but it does not sound like it could be another fish. How are your water parameters & temp? Do your lights come on all at once, hard start? Or do they gradually come on? Just thinking outside the box as it seems like something is some what shocking him.

Would stray voltage case him to stress?

[ScubaSteve]

sadly, my powder blue succumbed... your butterfly may also. I have come to the conclusion that the experts are right: there is no magic bullet for marine ich other than removing all the fish from the display tank, leaving it fishless for at least two months (or more), and treating all the fish in a QT tank during that time with copper meds.
i just hope i do not see a single speck of ich on any of the other fish! so far, the powder blue was the onyl fish in the tank to show ANY sign!

I don't think he will. He been battling it for at least 4 weeks now and is still fat, health and full of energy. As long as he keeps eating I think he'll be fine. I'm just feeling bad because he looks like he's gonna go crazy with the itching.

Something is stressing it out big time but it does not sound like it could be another fish. How are your water parameters & temp? Do your lights come on all at once, hard start? Or do they gradually come on? Just thinking outside the box as it seems like something is some what shocking him.

Would stray voltage case him to stress?

I keep the water params spot on because of my SPS, so I doubt that's the issue. I have been overfeeding the butterfly to help him through this, which does pollute the water more, so I've been doing a 25% water change weekly.

SG: 1.026
Amm: 0 ppm
pH: ~8.4
Nit/Phos: 0 ppm
Alk: 9 dKH
Calc: 420 ppm

Temp: 79 F

I have a grounding probe for stray voltages.

My only thought was the change in tank size. He came from another reefer that had a 125G system with lots of fish. Maybe the downsize in digs and few friends might be bothering him?

[The Grizz]

This is definitely a curious situation, I am out of ideas.

[ScubaSteve]

You and me both, big guy. There are times when it seems totally relaxed (ie. when he's playing with me or when he's not covered with ich) or he seems really twitchy and irritated and swims up and down the glass (when he's covered with ich). I have no idea...

Like I said, my only guess is then change in tank size...

[The Grizz]

Have you tried to add a cleaner wrasse? I added on a few months back and just recently got a Scribbled Rabbit that had a little ick. Once he was into my tank te ick got worse but within a day mt cleaner had it all cleaned up.

[reefwars]

sadly, my powder blue succumbed... your butterfly may also. I have come to the conclusion that the experts are right: there is no magic bullet for marine ich other than removing all the fish from the display tank, leaving it fishless for at least two months (or more), and treating all the fish in a QT tank during that time with copper meds.
i just hope i do not see a single speck of ich on any of the other fish! so far, the powder blue was the onyl fish in the tank to show ANY sign!


thats not completely true first of all if you would have practised safe buyng you wouldnt be in this boat by that i mean observing the fish before buying for disease and watching it easily take food if that passes then observe some more. fish should be added in certain orders to eleiminate stress of new homes and bullys..... some fish make the transition easily while some do not....some need the food a mature system provides while some not so much....powder blues are ich magnets and most will say stay away untill you belive you can keep one healthy or the system is large enough for it to feel "safe". with this fish i would start with hyposalinity given their track record.......but as youve already added it to your system your only answer now is a fallow system and to put the remaining fish in hyposalinity....8 weeks to be safe.......safe buying is a great start, never impulse buy,never rescue,never let a fish with a bad rap hit your tank untill your well read up on it.


didnt mean to come off harsh but copper imo is a very last effort as it kills sometimes as easy and as fast as ich can there are other meds that are effective besides copper....some even reef safe:).


cheers!!!:):)

[Judy Waytiuk]

I don't actually need lectures, but thanks for the thought. the word succumbed in this context means died. And yes, I know all the stuff you've listed--I've been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals!(and to this day i feel FOWLR tanks miss out on a lot!)-- and even taking all the precautions possible, you can still get a bout of ich in your tank.
All it really takes is introduction of a new coral that may have a few stray trodonts on the rock it's attached to.
If you read my post, it clearly says the tang was the only fish to show any sign of ich. In two months of recurring bouts of ich, it was the only fish to show ich-- the others, not a single spot. so the tank, minus the now dead tang, appears as healthy as ever.
Needless to say, I will be watching the other fish as closely as I have been for some time.
I disagree with you regarding copper. It has to be VERY carefully administered, yes. Nothing, absolutely, nothing, that you use in the way of equipment with a QT tank in which you use copper can be permitted to come in contact with your display tank.
But it remains the gold standard for guaranteed ich cure. I would love to know the brand names of the "other meds" you mention that are reef safe and that work. If you mean Kick Ich-- HAH! might as well shred twenty dollar bills into your tank for all the good THAT stuff does (I used it once about two years ago. Useless.)
a PS re cleaner wrasses: it is now commonly accpeted among the experts that cleaner wrasses do NOT clean up ich. They clean up the damaged and dead surface skin that's been damaged by the ich. They do not actually clean off the ich spots.

[reefwars]

I don't actually need lectures, but thanks for the thought. the word succumbed in this context means died. And yes, I know all the stuff you've listed--I've been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals!(and to this day i feel FOWLR tanks miss out on a lot!)-- and even taking all the precautions possible, you can still get a bout of ich in your tank.
All it really takes is introduction of a new coral that may have a few stray trodonts on the rock it's attached to.
If you read my post, it clearly says the tang was the only fish to show any sign of ich. In two months of recurring bouts of ich, it was the only fish to show ich-- the others, not a single spot. so the tank, minus the now dead tang, appears as healthy as ever.
Needless to say, I will be watching the other fish as closely as I have been for some time.
I disagree with you regarding copper. It has to be VERY carefully administered, yes. Nothing, absolutely, nothing, that you use in the way of equipment with a QT tank in which you use copper can be permitted to come in contact with your display tank.
But it remains the gold standard for guaranteed ich cure. I would love to know the brand names of the "other meds" you mention that are reef safe and that work. If you mean Kick Ich-- HAH! might as well shred twenty dollar bills into your tank for all the good THAT stuff does (I used it once about two years ago. Useless.)
a PS re cleaner wrasses: it is now commonly accpeted among the experts that cleaner wrasses do NOT clean up ich. They clean up the damaged and dead surface skin that's been damaged by the ich. They do not actually clean off the ich spots.




so let me get this straight your saying:



i disagree with you regarding copper. It has to be VERY carefully administered, yes. Nothing, absolutely, nothing, that you use in the way of equipment with a QT tank in which you use copper can be permitted to come in contact with your display tank.



hummm so it isnt harmfull your saying but yet it has to be "very" carefully administered????? wow cause thats not strange....


all corals should also be dipped and you should never use the water your coras come in....so there are ways to ensure it doesnt hit your tank.

i have used paraguard with success with garlic soaked foods , never harmed my reef or inverts but it can be lethal to invertabrates, its def not as strong as copper but like stated it has worked for me for a hippo i was treating for a friend.




i wasnt trying to lecture but you obviously are not looking at the big picture and are stating publically that copper is the only cure when you obviously havent done squat all research...if you had you would know alot of reefers try to stay away from copper... so heres the big picture you bought a fish who is known to have ich ...they are ich magnets.... you didnt quarantine and now have the ich in your system and it is in your system i guarantee it and are now trying to say copper is the only cure???...



if you noticed the ich on your tang for 2 mths and never did anything then you only have yourself to blame a last minute effort dont help much to fish not strong enough to go through the treatment.....that 2 mths was your cure and you didnt take it...soooo ya!!








I don't actually need lectures, but thanks for the thought. the word succumbed in this context means died. And yes, I know all the stuff you've listed--I've been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals.




so if you know all the stuff listed then why not do hyposalinity or have a hospital tank set up , why wait two months before treating your fish, why state that the tang is the only fish to have ich when you know its in your tank and other fish can get it....



if you want ich to stay away there are ways to not have it like i said buy only fish you have watched for health, treat all fish for parasites and even quarantine fish for hyposalinity, make sure your new fish readily eats food and is stress free from bullys and other variables like lights, yourself,sounds,electricity....etc etc etc...

dont overstock or get fish to big for your tank and try to stay away from fish who are known to carry ich like alot of tangs.





your making out like copper is a guaranteed cure and that since youve "been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals!" that your exempt from new learnings....well i got bad news for ya there.....your always gonna learn or your always gonna fail:):)

cheers and good luck with the new tang;)....

[Judy Waytiuk]

Now you are just being a mannerless lout-- one who apparently can't read.
I said copper "remains the gold standard" for curing ich. I did NOT say, or even suggest or hint, that copper is the only cure!
I said Kick Ich did nothing in my tank a few years ago.
I did NOT say copper was not harmful: i said nothing about its relative harmfulness or harmlessness. I said copper must be very, very carefully administered. That in itself should be sufficient indication for anyone with half a brain that I was pretty clearly inferring (you know the meaning of the word infer?) that copper is inherently dangerous.
You also suggest I did nothing for two months. Where, precisely, do you get that idea???
Stating that I have been keeping salt tanks for that long by no means suggests I have not continued to learn during the entire time I have kept tanks. That you would suggest that is both ignorant and insulting.
And guess what: I did ALL the things you list so pompously as necessary to keep a healthy tank before introducing that tang. You seem to be under the impression I just ran out, impulsively bought it and threw it in my reef along with gallons of water from various other infested tanks, and maybe a bunch of coral I didn't bother acclimating properly.
From exactly what basis do you draw that conclusion?
You seem to be under the impression you know everything there is to know about ich and reef tanks.
There are plenty of professionals and hobbyist reef experts out there who don't consider hyposalinity a first line of defense against ich. And I have done plenty of research constantly through the years, as more is learned about reefing, new products are developed, and we begin to understand more about what affects our reefs and how and why--, not "squat all."
You, sir, are an ignorant, rude jerk. Your advice will be taken in that context.

[ScubaSteve]

Hey kids, take it somewhere else. I appreciate the discussion and have seen these back-and-forths all over the 'net on this topic. Name calling and harsh words, however, aren't going to fix anything, nor does it really contribute to a thread trying to sort out why a still-living butterfly is being being affected with ich. Dead tang != Living Butterfly.

Sorry, not meaning to hurt feelings here and I appreciate both of you chiming in but I'm getting tired of the usual CanReef ****ing matches. Remember, ask two reefers on what is the best way to do something and you're going to get three answers.

Hug and make up, yo...

[Judy Waytiuk]

Genuinely sorry, ScubaSteve-- the man was just rude and insulting and I don' take well to that.
Back to the butterfly-- assuming your water parameters are all good-- and they are spot on-- the only idea I can suggest is removal to a QT for treatment there. There's clearly ich in the tank; if you want to get rid of it, that means putting all the fish in QT for at least eight weeks (six months is ideal but who wants to wait that long?) and leaving the tank fishless and therefore hostless for the ich.
Some people suggest raising the tank temp to 84 degrees to speed up the ich cycle-- that will help burn it out within the eight week time frame, if the corals don't mind. do it slowly though, both raising and lowering back the temp.
As for the med to use in the QT, I still suggest Cupramine. With the appropriate caution.
If you can rid the tank of the ich, the butterfly's stress won't be able to bring on an infestation, which exacerbates the stress. And if all the fish are in the QT and then are re-introduced to the tank at once, there will be much less territorial stress, after the initial "my spot, your spot" staking out of preferred real estate.
It's a lot of trouble to go to-- especially fish-catching! But it should work.

[daniella3d]

Your butterfly may be surviving it but it is affected make no mistake. His gills are being dammaged a little bit more each day.

You should take the fish out into a quarantine tank and treat all of them with hyposalinity and leave the main tank fishless for 8 weeks. voila, no more ick ever. No more worry about stressing the fish... If the fish get stressed, they recover from it very fast and don't get sick.

the ick will never go away on its own, it will always be present, waiting for the right opportunity to strike. It will live on the fish gill in small number and do its cycle. that's why you see it come and go. Unless you really take care of it and do the right thing, it will stay in your tank and you will always have problem. Your choice.

Don't rise the tank temperature. Marine ick cycle is NOT affected by the temperature and raising the temp will only stress your fish more from having less dissolved oxygen. the temperature myth come from the fresh water ick wich cycle is affected by the temperature but not the marine ick.

don,t use copper, it is toxic and can cause organ dammage and kill the fish on the long term. copper is the last resort treatment for velvet, not for ick unless the ick does not respond to hyposalinity.

The longest surviving ick cyst was 79 days, but most common for the longest around 60 days. So 8 weeks is fine. If you ever use cupramine, don't ever use prime or any dechlorinator that can bind with the amine is cupramine, as this will release the copper back into a toxic form.



Hey kids, take it somewhere else. I appreciate the discussion and have seen these back-and-forths all over the 'net on this topic. Name calling and harsh words, however, aren't going to fix anything, nor does it really contribute to a thread trying to sort out why a still-living butterfly is being being affected with ich. Dead tang != Living Butterfly.

Sorry, not meaning to hurt feelings here and I appreciate both of you chiming in but I'm getting tired of the usual CanReef ****ing matches. Remember, ask two reefers on what is the best way to do something and you're going to get three answers.

Hug and make up, yo...

[ScubaSteve]

Thanks for the reply. I am quite aware of that information and completely agree with NOT using copper meds unless completely necessary. Unfortunately, as I said in my first post, I have no means to create a hospital tank right now. I don't have the space or the resources to pull that off right now. Not all of us can play rich reefer (I wish I could).

To add to this, it was decided that we are moving in one month. So,ummmm... It kind of isn't leaving me with many options other than hoping he makes it to the move and I can set up a hospital tank for him there.

My only other option is to find someone locally that has a hospital tank to adopt him from me. I'm in need of some creative solutions...

[ScubaSteve]

Also, I should mention that I'm working almost 18 hour day until the day I love, so I'm struggling to find enough time to do something huge.

[Judy Waytiuk]

I would not use copper meds unless necessary, either-- but it seemed you'd tried other routes that didn't work. If you are moving in a month-- well-- perhaps the butterfly will make it, perhaps he won't. Do you want to try the Paraguard Reefwars suggested?
According to the Seachem site, "Paraguard is very effective when used as a dip, though it is very important to watch for signs of stress in fish while using it in a dip solution. We do not recommend using Paraguard in a tank with invertebrates."
... So you could conceivably catch the butterfly and dip it in water dosed with Paraguard...?

[daniella3d]

I think it would be completely pointless to use paraguard as a dip and then return the fish in a tank full of ick. It would be stressing the fish for nothing. The ick cyst are deep enough into the fish skin and it might remove a few cyst but most will stay and that will probably just stress and weaken the fish more. Unless the fish is put into a clean, ick free quarantine tank, this will not help much I am afraid.

I used paraguard for a month into a QT for my trigger popeye and it was safe enough for the biofilter but it would have killed my coral I am pretty sure. It is formaline after all.

I did not do any other treatment for ick and 4 weeks later I put my trigger into my main tank and he never developed ick. Seem Paraguard took care of any parasites that was on the fish.

Paying 20$ for a QT is nothing compared to the cost of a saltwater fish like a butterfly, mostly 40$ or 50$. I am not rich at all..in fact I just got a job after being 3 months without any income what so ever. I managed to get a QT and buy a small filter and some liverock, plus a small heater. Total cost for about 45$. yeah, it's worth it and all this stuff can be bought used for very cheap on kijiji. 9 fish cost what? enough to be worth saving no?



I would not use copper meds unless necessary, either-- but it seemed you'd tried other routes that didn't work. If you are moving in a month-- well-- perhaps the butterfly will make it, perhaps he won't. Do you want to try the Paraguard Reefwars suggested?
According to the Seachem site, "Paraguard is very effective when used as a dip, though it is very important to watch for signs of stress in fish while using it in a dip solution. We do not recommend using Paraguard in a tank with invertebrates."
... So you could conceivably catch the butterfly and dip it in water dosed with Paraguard...?

[Judy Waytiuk]

I agree. Just was noting what reefwars had suggested that may have been missed, as he threw it in briefly in the middle of a long rant at me.
the only real solution to any ich problem, I am afraid, is to run a fishless tank for six months, keep all fish in quarantine and treat if symptoms appear, and qt all new fish for at least two months.
that likely won't save this butterfly...

[ScubaSteve]

Ahhh F***! Just got home after pulling two back-to-back all-nighters at work and this guy is in rough shape. He's hiding and really lethargic.

As this is my only free day in the past couple of weeks (and for the next month) I need to set-up hyposalinity for this guy today. I know it's probably a last ditch effort but I gotta do something.

[reefwars]

hey man sorry to hear about this, it may be one of those times where you need to ask yourself if you can help this little guy or if its best to pass it to someone who has the right set up and can help him for you,its def a hard decision.

even with hypo salinity if you add him back to your tank in a couple months theres still a huge chance he can get it again.


you need to ask yourself if a $100 fish is worth jeopardizing your system with disease.

as it stands now its the only fish showing the signs right?? well if thats the case i believe if you keep him in your display he will add stress to the other fish.


remember copper will help for sure but its hard on weak fish and you will still have to solve the underining issue for the ich in your tank.


a freshwater dip can help for a very temporary relief but its also stressfull....catch 22 i guess...



if you must keep it put it hyposalinity and soak everything in garlic extract ,he needs to eat and eat lots...keep the lights out or low and try not to stress him out.....lots of hiding places and keep your water clean.



good luck mate i hope it works out for you...







my personal advice is to pass it on to someone and cut your losses, dont add any fish for a while and observe your other fish

[ScubaSteve]

Ya man, he doesn't seem to like his home here. I had decided about a week ago that I was actually going to get him back to good health then pass him on to someone with a bigger tank like he was in before. Maybe he'll feel more comfortable. I've got a hospital tank all set up and ready to go. I'll try to catch him tomorrow and get him going in there. Hopefully it'll help relieve some of the stress as well as get rid of the ich. Once he's back to chipper I'll bring the salinity back up and find a new home for him. I don't think there is anyone wanting to take him right now in his current state.

[daniella3d]

If you give the fish some live white worms it might bring him back to better health. It's a rich food that butterfly fish love.

Also when you bring the salinity back up, it must be done slowly, no more than 0.03 point per day, so for about 5 to 6 days.

Ya man, he doesn't seem to like his home here. I had decided about a week ago that I was actually going to get him back to good health then pass him on to someone with a bigger tank like he was in before. Maybe he'll feel more comfortable. I've got a hospital tank all set up and ready to go. I'll try to catch him tomorrow and get him going in there. Hopefully it'll help relieve some of the stress as well as get rid of the ich. Once he's back to chipper I'll bring the salinity back up and find a new home for him. I don't think there is anyone wanting to take him right now in his current state.

[reefwars]

Ya man, he doesn't seem to like his home here. I had decided about a week ago that I was actually going to get him back to good health then pass him on to someone with a bigger tank like he was in before. Maybe he'll feel more comfortable. I've got a hospital tank all set up and ready to go. I'll try to catch him tomorrow and get him going in there. Hopefully it'll help relieve some of the stress as well as get rid of the ich. Once he's back to chipper I'll bring the salinity back up and find a new home for him. I don't think there is anyone wanting to take him right now in his current state.



i think its a smart move, i know we all get attached to our fish and when they are suffering we are suffering as well , deep down we know whats best even if it means finding a new home for our friends. alot of problems arise for those who cant make that decision and its a part of this hobby...taking the bad with the good and making decisions that we would rather not have to make.

good luck buddy:):)

[ScubaSteve]

One quick question that I've been getting mix answers on: should I bring the salinity down slowly once he's in or can I start him at a low salinity? The rest of the procedure I've got pretty good.

[reefwars]

One quick question that I've been getting mix answers on: should I bring the salinity down slowly once he's in or can I start him at a low salinity? The rest of the procedure I've got pretty good.



lowering the salinity is easier on the fish than raising it ,in an emergency you can drop the fish in a lower salinity and it would be fine, but the transition will be easier for the fish acclimation wise if the temp and salinity match the display and then drop the salinity by taking away saltwater and adding ro water. but as daniella stated raising it must be done slowly over time .

[ScubaSteve]

This guy had a major turn for the worse over night (I'm super sick from only getting 4 hours of sleep a night for the past 3 weeks, so I'm only getting up now). I don't think he's going to make it.

Lessons learned:

-Bad stuff always happens when you are basically powerless to do something about it
-treat bad stuff quickly
-Always have a hospital tank on hand even if you have to leave it in the living room of your tiny apartment

Not fun...

[ScubaSteve]

And the battle is over... I had him in the tank matching the the temp and salinity of the display and was bringing the salinity down slowly with a drip (would have taken 48 hours to get down to the right SG). He was having his ups and downs (was actually looking like he was perking up for a while). Left the room for a minute, came back and didn't even have to look at the tank to know... I guess he was too far gone. This sucks...

So in the past two weeks I had my friend die in a car accident, my friend's dad die from cancer and now my favourite fish. I'm sensing a theme here...

Gonna go find my scotch!

[Delphinus]

Sorry to hear man, and sorry about your friend and friend's dad. That's a large burden to carry.

[Skimmerking]

WOW sorry to hear man that really sucks

[Lance]

Sad to hear. Sorry for your losses.

[ALang]

Sorry to hear that. Sorry for for losses as well.
Take care of yourself, and **big HUGS***
Lenny.