Copperbands Valentine's Day Lovefest - Not

[Reef Pilot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gu1zCFUELs

I bought these Copperbands about 3 weeks ago and put them into my refugium tank. Almost immediately, one started chasing the other, and I had to separate them with this divider. That seemed to solve the problem. I got them both eating, and everything seemed fine. In fact, I was just about to try removing the divider again to see if they might get along. Then today I see them trying to fight each other through the divider. And it is Valentine's day, too, Feb 14, 2011.

Reef Pilot

[Jackie]

Why would you do this? They are hard to keep already given the perfect setup. You will stress them out and both will die soon.

[Reef Pilot]

Why would I do what?? I put in the divider to keep them apart. The refugium (30 g) is my quarantine tank before I move them to my main display tank.

I've got them eating several different foods now, incl freeze dried, and they seem to be quite happy and healthy. I don't think their little spat today is going to kill them. If I didn't have the divider, then yes, could be serious.

Like I said, this is the first time in 3 weeks I have seen them bicker at all. Most of the time, when they are not hunting and pecking on the bottom looking for food, they are just sitting near the divider looking at each other. Almost like they want to be together. But just not today for some reason.

Will see if this new mood continues, or if they will settle down again like before. I was still hoping to take out the divider and see if they can get along before moving them to the main display tank.

Reef Pilot

[bignose]

Is your display big enough for 2 Copperbands? Some fish don't tolerate their own kind in home aquaria.

[strickrick]

They want to be together to probably kill each other. Unfortunately these are fairly difficult to keep and are ich magnets. I have seen pet stores hold more than one juvenile together in holding tanks but have never heard of anyone keeping them together successfully. If they are only now showing aggression, it will only get worse from here and even in a large tank (125g) they will chase each other till at least one dies (if not both from stress).

Your best bet would be to return one and get him a nice buddy, mine was a big fan of the yellow tang and my majestic angel for years.

[daniella3d]

Why? because they WILL FIGHT!

As for apearing healthy?? they are both skinny and seem to be lacking the healthy fat pad on the top of the head and top body part. They should be plump there, not pinched like that.

You could have 2 males as far as we know.. not a good idea. I give them a few weeks before they die, months at best. They need to lay down on the stress and get back their fat. They are very skinny from what I can see and pinched on the top of the head, at least the one on the left seem to be pinched.

Copperband need to eat a lot. Mine is eating as much as my trigger. Give them some live food like some live white worms or some live blackworms and oyster or mussels.

I take a fresh live mussels from the grocery store, brush it hard under warm running water from the kitchen faucet and brush it for a few minutes to remove all possible parasites, then I cut that in half to open the mussel. Give one to each copperband and they will love it. Mine gets one nearly every day along with live white worms.

Unfortunatly putting them together will not work. Geezzz! look how fast that poor fish on the left is breathing!!! this is terrible. The fish is horribly stressed to breath that fast.


I've got them eating several different foods now, incl freeze dried, and they seem to be quite happy and healthy.

[paddyob]

Yup. Research is worth way more than the fish itself. As already mentioned... one is hard to keep for most people. Did you actually research before buying the first? Or the second?

Who would actually advise you to try two??

Too bad. Nice fish. I would not be surprised if at least one dies in your fuge. Tell the shop you bought it at that the fighting is too extreme... take it back.


Sorry for the choice you made but good luck. Hope it works out for the best.

[gobytron]

meh.
your chances are about the same as any one else who has tried to keep these fish.

Good luck...

[Reef Pilot]

Whoa, everybody please chill down. First, I will admit, I may have made a mistake buying two. But let me explain my reasoning, and give some background. And yes, I did a lot of research, so this was not an impulse buy.

I have a 6 foot 100 g display tank that is very mature, going for 10 years or so. We just moved into this house 7 months ago, so it was all inherited. The display is doing well with the fish and corals, but is full of aiptasia, so that is why I wanted a Copperband.

I tried a single Copperband back last Aug. Didn't have a QT tank ready, so put him in with the other fish. Problem was I have a bully yellow tang that would harass him, and kept him to one corner of the tank. Despite that, he would eat stuff in the live rocks, and picked away at small aiptaisia. However, I could not get him to eat any of frozen and other foods that the rest of my fish ate. Even tried chopped up live clams, and would put them into a little container with holes in it for him to pick out. But soon the other fish figured that out, and again, he could not compete with them.

So after 2 months, he was getting very skinny indeed, and I returned him to the pet shop. At least he never did get sick, and if I had a QT tank, I think I could have saved him.

Since then, I have successfully introduced several other fish into the main display tank with no losses. But each time this yellow tank harassed them for a few days, so I know that will be the challenge with the Copperband(s).

Now I finally have a good QT tank set up (doubles as a Refugium when no new fish), seeded with aiptasia, and wanted to try the Copperband route again. My thinking with 2 is that is the yellow tang's attention would be divided. This actually worked with my other fish that I introduced successfully. Also, I found that when in QT, fish teach each other to feed (monkey see, monkey do).

Anyway, at the pet shop they had 4 Copperbands. 2 were in the open seemingly happy, doing what Copperbands do, looking for food on the bottom, and didn't show any aggression towards each other. The other 2 were cowering behind a pipe in the corner. So I bought the 2 that seemed like they were getting along and were looking for food.

When home in the QT, unfortunately, one did bully the other, so I separated them with the divider. But the monkey do, see thing, still worked, and it took me only a couple days to get them both eating Mysis shrimp. Then I would give them a chopped up live clam, and again they seemed to take cues from each other about going after food. Now I also have them eating freeze dried Mysis shrimp. I also have an Azure Damselfish in there with them to get any uneaten scraps. He is very peaceful, so no problem there, and I think he too, is teaching them to eat.

My plan is to fatten them up and eating a variety of foods before putting them into the display tank. But I am not sure if I will put them both in. If the aggression continues, may have to sell or return one of the Copperbands. But for now, want to fatten them up first in the Refugium. Good news is that they are definitely eating well, and no sign of any disease.

Like I said initially, they seemed to get along fine the first 3 weeks, and only yesterday bickered at each other through the divider. I think it may actually be a sign of vigor, as they are slowly gaining back their strength from their ordeals in the supply chain.

But will keep a close eye on them, and will see what happens.

Reef Pilot

[daniella3d]

Well that's great...between the yellow tang harrassing them and them harrassing each other..they should have a long and happy life.

The sensible thing to do would be to remove the yellow tang and let one copperband (the one that eat the best and is the fattest) get acclimated for a month in the display, sell the other copperband (100 gallons is way too small to keep 2 copperband) and then introduce the yellow tang once the copperband is acclimated.

The one on the left is not going to live much longer from what I can see. it's quite thin and stressed.

Also if you give them mysis, it is best to give them PE mysis as they are much more rich in fatty acid than the regular mysis.

A copperband goes through a colony of aiptasia in no time, no need for 2.

You already tried one and failed, then you're going through the same mistakes again as the yellow tang will definitly harrass both of them. I don't think they are "eating well" either because mine got to a skinny bony thing to a very beautiful fat and healthy fish in 10 only days...yours are skinny still after 3 weeks, especialy the one on the left. You may think they eat well but they don't. After 3 weeks of eating well they should have gained their fat pad back. Sorry if I sound harsh but the copperband is my favorite fish as they have such sweet personality and it sadden me to see this. :(

It also sound as if your quarantine tank is connected to your main tank? if that is so, then it's useless since any disease will quickly spread to the main tank. I surely hope I got that part wrong.

It is very misleading to see a bunch of copperband fish together at the store and they seem to get along great. They have no territory to defend or associate with as most of these tanks are empty of anything. It's the same with discus. Put a bunch of discus in an empty tank with nothing in it and they will get along great...then put a piece of driftwood and they will start to fight for the possesion of this wood.


I have a 6 foot 100 g display tank that is very mature, going for 10 years or so. We just moved into this house 7 months ago, so it was all inherited. The display is doing well with the fish and corals, but is full of aiptasia, so that is why I wanted a Copperband.

I tried a single Copperband back last Aug. Didn't have a QT tank ready, so put him in with the other fish. Problem was I have a bully yellow tang that would harass him, and kept him to one corner of the tank. Despite that, he would eat stuff in the live rocks, and picked away at small aiptaisia. However, I could not get him to eat any of frozen and other foods that the rest of my fish ate. Even tried chopped up live clams, and would put them into a little container with holes in it for him to pick out. But soon the other fish figured that out, and again, he could not compete with them.

So after 2 months, he was getting very skinny indeed, and I returned him to the pet shop. At least he never did get sick, and if I had a QT tank, I think I could have saved him.

Reef Pilot

[Reef Pilot]

Daniella, you are very quick to come to conclusions. You don't know anything about me. I do appreciate your concern, though, and I also like Copperbands, not just because they eat aiptasia. But you could be more helpful, if you offered some support instead of just criticism. If I took your posts to heart, I should quit this hobby and accept that I am not worthy of keeping SW fish.

As for my experience, I am new to SW fish, but was big in the FW hobby quite a few years back. I actually was successful at breeding discus, so I know a bit about finicky fish behavior. Having said that, I know SW is much more difficult and I have a lot to learn. The good news is that there is much more info available now with the internet, and forums like this.

Getting back to my Copperbands and the display tank. My approach is different this time than last, so don't think I am repeating the same mistake. I admit this may not work out either, but wanted to try it and see what happens. I learned a long time ago, that a little experimentation leads to new learning, so I don't always accept what all the "experts" say. As I said, I have the option of only keeping 1 Copperband, and am keeping the fish separated, so they can't harm each other.

As for the Yellow Tang, from past experience, he only harasses new fish for a few days, and then leaves them alone. He still occasionally gives a little tail slap towards other fish, just to show he is the boss, but does not chase them. I have tried to catch him in the past, but that is impossible with a net. If he (and the other fish, too) see me coming with a net, he hides in the back and in the rocks and caves. Even when feeding, he will disappear if I have a net in my hand.

Having said that, my intention is to try and catch the Yellow Tang, and put him into the QT tank, when moving the Copperband(s) to the display tank. I am looking for a fish trap right now, and will give that a try when the time comes.

As for fat Copperbands, certainly not yet; I have only had them 3 weeks, but already am seeing their bellies and sides filled out more, so they are definitely gaining. I feed little bits of food about 4 or 5 times a day. I am also being very careful not to pollute the tank, so am monitoring all my water parameters daily.

My first priority was to get them eating, and am very happy to see them accept different foods now, too. I started them on frozen PE Mysis, and agree that is the best. But the freeze dried stuff is also high in protein and has added vitamins, so am hopeful that will be good for them, too. And it all gets eaten, nothing falls into hidden crevices to pollute the tank.

Reef Pilot

[reefwars]

Whoa, everybody please chill down. First, I will admit, I may have made a mistake buying two. But let me explain my reasoning, and give some background. And yes, I did a lot of research, so this was not an impulse buy.

I have a 6 foot 100 g display tank that is very mature, going for 10 years or so. We just moved into this house 7 months ago, so it was all inherited. The display is doing well with the fish and corals, but is full of aiptasia, so that is why I wanted a Copperband.

I tried a single Copperband back last Aug. Didn't have a QT tank ready, so put him in with the other fish. Problem was I have a bully yellow tang that would harass him, and kept him to one corner of the tank. Despite that, he would eat stuff in the live rocks, and picked away at small aiptaisia. However, I could not get him to eat any of frozen and other foods that the rest of my fish ate. Even tried chopped up live clams, and would put them into a little container with holes in it for him to pick out. But soon the other fish figured that out, and again, he could not compete with them.

So after 2 months, he was getting very skinny indeed, and I returned him to the pet shop. At least he never did get sick, and if I had a QT tank, I think I could have saved him.

Since then, I have successfully introduced several other fish into the main display tank with no losses. But each time this yellow tank harassed them for a few days, so I know that will be the challenge with the Copperband(s).

Now I finally have a good QT tank set up (doubles as a Refugium when no new fish), seeded with aiptasia, and wanted to try the Copperband route again. My thinking with 2 is that is the yellow tang's attention would be divided. This actually worked with my other fish that I introduced successfully. Also, I found that when in QT, fish teach each other to feed (monkey see, monkey do).

Anyway, at the pet shop they had 4 Copperbands. 2 were in the open seemingly happy, doing what Copperbands do, looking for food on the bottom, and didn't show any aggression towards each other. The other 2 were cowering behind a pipe in the corner. So I bought the 2 that seemed like they were getting along and were looking for food.

When home in the QT, unfortunately, one did bully the other, so I separated them with the divider. But the monkey do, see thing, still worked, and it took me only a couple days to get them both eating Mysis shrimp. Then I would give them a chopped up live clam, and again they seemed to take cues from each other about going after food. Now I also have them eating freeze dried Mysis shrimp. I also have an Azure Damselfish in there with them to get any uneaten scraps. He is very peaceful, so no problem there, and I think he too, is teaching them to eat.

My plan is to fatten them up and eating a variety of foods before putting them into the display tank. But I am not sure if I will put them both in. If the aggression continues, may have to sell or return one of the Copperbands. But for now, want to fatten them up first in the Refugium. Good news is that they are definitely eating well, and no sign of any disease.

Like I said initially, they seemed to get along fine the first 3 weeks, and only yesterday bickered at each other through the divider. I think it may actually be a sign of vigor, as they are slowly gaining back their strength from their ordeals in the supply chain.

But will keep a close eye on them, and will see what happens.

Reef Pilot



good luck who knows maybe youll end up with a perfectly healthy pair and change what we know about copperbands......you may also not.....either way good luck:):)

sometimes people on here just like to bash for sake of speaking or so called high morals.....if youve gotten both to eat then kudos to you if they end up fighting then remove one right away and lesson learned :):)cheers:)

[turkleton]

It's good to see that you have gotten them both to eat, especially if they are starting to show an improvement over how they looked in the store. I agree that the only way we are going to learn more about stuff like this is through experimentation and trial and error. Regardless of weather or not this works out in the long run I wish you the best of luck. If nothing else this will serve as a valuable learning experience for you and everyone else.

[daniella3d]

Well, I am only drawing conclusions from what you write.

I already offered you advise how to feed your copperband(s) and what you should do for introducing it safely. Not much else I can do.

I consider "experimenting" fine, but keep in mind who's going to pay the price for your experimentation. Often people don't realize that fish are dying from these experimentations and most of the time it could have been avoided with simple research.

I am not against experimenting as long as this does not cost the life of a poor creatre with something that was all way too predictible. This, I consider, was quite predictible.

Often people buy these fish so that they will solve their aiptasia problem, without really caring what happen to the fish once it run out of aiptasia to eat. I read it over and over again.

I am not saying you should leave the hobby and pack your things...that's not what I was suggesting.

For now you are NOT keeping the fish separated. You are keeping them in a very very stressfull situation where they can see each other and attack each other through a egg crate. Haven't you see how hard and fast your copperband is breathing?? This is called stress. This is what actualy makes me hangry. How long do you intend to keep this going??

You really need to put an end to this situation by returning one of the fish or really separating them so they can't see each other and keep fighting all day. Not only they still can harm each other but they can harm themselves trying to bite through the egg crate and obviously they are living in extreme stress. What makes me hangry is that you seem to not realize this.


Daniella, you are very quick to come to conclusions. You don't know anything about me. I do appreciate your concern, though, and I also like Copperbands, not just because they eat aiptasia. But you could be more helpful, if you offered some support instead of just criticism. If I took your posts to heart, I should quit this hobby and accept that I am not worthy of keeping SW fish.

As for my experience, I am new to SW fish, but was big in the FW hobby quite a few years back. I actually was successful at breeding discus, so I know a bit about finicky fish behavior. Having said that, I know SW is much more difficult and I have a lot to learn. The good news is that there is much more info available now with the internet, and forums like this.

Getting back to my Copperbands and the display tank. My approach is different this time than last, so don't think I am repeating the same mistake. I admit this may not work out either, but wanted to try it and see what happens. I learned a long time ago, that a little experimentation leads to new learning, so I don't always accept what all the "experts" say. As I said, I have the option of only keeping 1 Copperband, and am keeping the fish separated, so they can't harm each other.

As for the Yellow Tang, from past experience, he only harasses new fish for a few days, and then leaves them alone. He still occasionally gives a little tail slap towards other fish, just to show he is the boss, but does not chase them. I have tried to catch him in the past, but that is impossible with a net. If he (and the other fish, too) see me coming with a net, he hides in the back and in the rocks and caves. Even when feeding, he will disappear if I have a net in my hand.

Having said that, my intention is to try and catch the Yellow Tang, and put him into the QT tank, when moving the Copperband(s) to the display tank. I am looking for a fish trap right now, and will give that a try when the time comes.

As for fat Copperbands, certainly not yet; I have only had them 3 weeks, but already am seeing their bellies and sides filled out more, so they are definitely gaining. I feed little bits of food about 4 or 5 times a day. I am also being very careful not to pollute the tank, so am monitoring all my water parameters daily.

My first priority was to get them eating, and am very happy to see them accept different foods now, too. I started them on frozen PE Mysis, and agree that is the best. But the freeze dried stuff is also high in protein and has added vitamins, so am hopeful that will be good for them, too. And it all gets eaten, nothing falls into hidden crevices to pollute the tank.

Reef Pilot

[Reef Pilot]

Thanks Reefwars and Turtleton for your encouraging words. Glad to see that everyone on this list does not have a holier than thou attitude.

I read a lot (and talked to people at the fish shops) about Copperbands and so totally understood the challenge before I got these ones. I knew the first priority had to be getting them to eat, as that is what most people had difficulty with. And I am happy to say that seems to be very successful so far.

But it didn't just happen. I actually believe having the 2 Copperbands and the Azure Damselfish helped. Fish seem to need to be stimulated to feed. And when they see another one eating, that seems to get them going. The smaller fish (on the left side of the divider) was definitely slower to start eating and converting to new foods. But now I have both them eating frozen Mysis, chopped fresh clams and just the last few days freeze dried Mysis enriched with vitamins. That was not easy, and I had to use a few tricks from my old FW days for tricking finicky fish into eating new foods.

Reef Pilot

[Reef Pilot]

And Daniella, I am very sorry for making you "hangry". That was not at all my intention.

And you should be happy to learn that today, they seem to be getting along much better now. The smaller one (on the left side) still seems to try to start something occasionally, by taking a poke or lunge towards the other one. But the bigger one is now mostly ignoring him (or her), and most of the time they are each just doing their thing poking around the bottom looking for bits.

I think what happened is that the smaller one finally got enough health and vigor to defend his "territory". At first the bigger one reacted, but now seems to just ignore him.

Although what is still interesting, is that sometimes they just sit calmly close to each other by the divider (no heavy rapid breathing) for a while, almost like they are enjoying each others' company. That may be wishful thinking on my part, so not sure what that is all about.

They both do get very excited when I come around, looking for their food. So I really don't think they are very stressed, quite the contrary actually.

Reef Pilot

[ensquire]

Careful who you make "hangry". Looks like there are now copperband police.

[daniella3d]

Can't beleive I am the only one upset seing things like that...

Call me batch number 1458 if you wish...member of the copperband police.

Careful who you make "hangry". Looks like there are now copperband police.

[Reef Pilot]

Daniella, since you seem to be the big expert on this forum about Copperbands, I would like to know more about your experience.

How many have you owned, and how long have they lived? How did they do once you put them into your main display tank? Were they bullied at all, and were they able to successfully compete for food with the other fish. Did you ever keep a Yellow Tang with a Copperband?

I have seen other display tanks with Yellow Tangs and Copperbands, and they all seemed happy, so I know it can be done. But it couldn't have been all peace and love, right at the introduction. And I have seen tanks with more than 1 Copperband.

Reef Pilot

[reefwars]

Can't beleive I am the only one upset seing things like that...

Call me batch number 1458 if you wish...member of the copperband police.



daniella i do agree with what you say and ive read just about all your posts so i know for a fact your a very very smart person but sometimes we have to have a little faith in the common reefer......not many are out to purely hurt a fish and no one wants to see a fish die.

its a fine line to cross with an experiment and abuse to a fish and i dont think this is a case of buying two copperbands and just dropping them into a tank to hash it out.the op has gotten them to feed hes well aware of the dangers of having two and is well aware of their track record..... will it be successfull who knows possibly not but we do need this in this hobby.

from what i remember you bought a skinny copper to try to fatten him up and knowing that they dont do well i aquarium life while some say that would have been a bad idea i believe if you do our research and think you have an honest chance then give it a try.....so far so good right??


bad track record yes...impossible no

i know of a lady who has had a copperband for many many years shes involved in research and very knowlegable about the hobby with over 15yrs experience she was oneof the first reefers i met in alberta and led me on to a diet for my yellow tang that turned him completely around so its not impossible to keep one.


lets face it theres alot of new dscoveries to be had in the marine hobby and we shouldnt be to quick to judge.....alot of this was started and perfected with hobbyst like yourself and the o.p who wanted to "try" and each day i thank god that someone had of taken that step or wondered why we cant have this in our home:):)

so lets all be open minded and offer advice that will help (not that you havent because you have offered great advice) if theres a problem then lets not judge and label people "fish abusers" lets help solve the problem and help as best as we can:):)


there are no tang police or copper police merely people who are concerned for our scaley friends and alot of times a kind word of advice will go along ways where as putting down peoples practises will just get your advice ignored.


ummmmm so lets all be open minded and do what we do best which is advise and pls dont take things to heart and get mad it really doesnt help but a positive attitude will go on and on and on and on:):)



like i say in the beginning i know for a fact your a very smart person and one with a big heart for the hobby so keep it up but lets help more and create positive feedback or people are just going to do this stuff and not post it and the more publc posts we get the more public info there is:):) cheers:)

[daniella3d]

I am not a big expert but no one needs to be an expert to see your fish are stressed..duh...

I have one for a few months now and it is fat and healthy. it is not stressed by any fish and no fish in my tank ever harrased it from the begining. I would not have tolerated this.

I do not tolerate aggression in my tank. It surely can be done to put a yellow tang in with a copperband but there are ways to do it. yours seem that it harrassed your previous copperband and will most probably do it again (very predictible). The proper way to do it is to introduce the yellow tang AFTER the copperband has had a chance to acclimate, like one month after.

My copperband is now with a niger trigger and both eat side by side when I put a mussel. Acutaly it is the trigger that showed the butterfly that a mussel was food. There is no competition for food at all and my copperband gets his white worms a few times per day and I feed it with a pipette. He's totaly rotten spoiled but I love that fish.

The only yellow tang I ever had ended up killing my mandarin so I sold it long before I got the copperband because he would have killed that one too.

Copperband are hard fish to keep. They are sensitive (you can lough now) and have a sweet personality. It,s already hard to keep them in good health with a perfect setup, never mind having them harrassed by other fish and putting 2 of them in competition together in a too small aquarium.

When I got my copperband it was only skin and bone. It was infested with flukes and was breathing very fast. Was only eating about 3 PE mysis per day. It was really on its way out. I fatten him up with white worms and that took about 10 days, did a 4 weeks quarentine and on week 3 and 4 I treated it with prazipro. It was not an easy task to get him back to health and any fish harrasing or fighting it would have meant a failure for sure. When it was in quarentine it was alone, with no stress, until it was fat and healthy again. I did not even treat him for flukes until I felt he was strong enough and fat enough (prazipro cut off appetite).

what tank did you see with more than one copperband?? petshop bare tank? very large tank? Maybe some copperband could get along together but hey...yours are fighting and obviously they wont be ok together. Seem easy enough to see.

If you want to read my story and read the reply and see how hard they are to keep:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=71617


Daniella, since you seem to be the big expert on this forum about Copperbands, I would like to know more about your experience.

How many have you owned, and how long have they lived? How did they do once you put them into your main display tank? Were they bullied at all, and were they able to successfully compete for food with the other fish. Did you ever keep a Yellow Tang with a Copperband?

I have seen other display tanks with Yellow Tangs and Copperbands, and they all seemed happy, so I know it can be done. But it couldn't have been all peace and love, right at the introduction. And I have seen tanks with more than 1 Copperband.

Reef Pilot

[daniella3d]

yes I know and beleive me that I feel like a "Bi***" saying all these things (I am not like that) but it does upset me to see such thing and I could not just watch without saying my opinion about it. I don't know why it upset me so much..it's not my fish after all. Maybe I just love my butterfly too much so I get emotional when watching this video.

I just hope it turn out well.


so lets all be open minded and offer advice that will help (not that you havent because you have offered great advice) if theres a problem then lets not judge and label people "fish abusers" lets help solve the problem and help as best as we can:):)


there are no tang police or copper police merely people who are concerned for our scaley friends and alot of times a kind word of advice will go along ways where as putting down peoples practises will just get your advice ignored.


ummmmm so lets all be open minded and do what we do best which is advise and pls dont take things to heart and get mad it really doesnt help but a positive attitude will go on and on and on and on:):)

[Reef Pilot]

Daniella, I read your thread about your Copperband purchase. Sounds like you have had him for less than 2 months, which is certainly not a lot of experience with these fish. Sounds like he had a tough time too, and having to go through all that medication.

But I will give you credit for trying something new, the white worms, to get him eating again. Though not sure of the longer term effects of feeding these to SW fish,and hope you continue to get him converted over to other foods as well.

I have both of mine now eating freeze dried Mysis shrimp enriched with vitamins, as well as other frozen and fresh foods including clams. And they are really going after the food with gusto, no tentative bites. They stuff their mouths until they can't swallow anymore, and bits are sticking out the sides as they try to force it down.

On the behavior side with mine, I watched them quite a bit yesterday, and the bickering through the divider has almost totally stopped. There were a couple attempts by the smaller one on the left to start something, but the bigger one does not react now.

What is really interesting though, is how much they act in tandem. When one goes to the top looking for food, they other one goes up too, to have a look. And if one is hunting on the bottom, they other is too. When I come into the room, both come to the front of the glass to greet me. And sometimes they are both just sitting quietly on each side of the divider, like they are just hanging out together. Also, if one gets scared for some reason, if I make an unexpected movement or something, and goes and hides, the other does the same.

As I said before, I think this tandem behavior has helped the smaller one to convert over to new foods. Monkey see, monkey do, really works.

Again, not advocating having 2 Copperbands, but thought this behavior is really interesting. I am wondering if maybe I have a male and a female. If peace continues for a while again, I may just try removing that divider again to see what happens. Of course, I can put it back in a blink if it is doesn't work out.

Reef Pilot

[Duffer2]

I have seen other display tanks with Yellow Tangs and Copperbands, and they all seemed happy, so I know it can be done. But it couldn't have been all peace and love, right at the introduction. And I have seen tanks with more than 1 Copperband.

Reef Pilot

Currently have a Yellow Tang and a Copperband hanging out peacefully in my 120. The Yellow kicked the crap outta the copper for 3 days. He then got placed in the sump for 3 days, brought back in, and now everyone gets along just fine. Copperband will be 2 years old in captivity next month.

[daniella3d]

How long I have my copper is a bit irrelevant in that situation. It is very easy to see that your fish are stressed in that video. My copperband was for about a month at the reseller, then I have it for about 2 months. Prazipro is not hard on a fish, it is even reef safe. I used it in my reef frag tank and nothing was affected. The flukes are hard on a fish.

The problem was not that he was not eating, but he was eating too little, just 3 to 4 mysis per day. It seem that copperband need a lot of food to be at their top health. They should really have that full fleshed fat pad at the top if they are healthy.

the white worms are quite fat but the important thing is not to overfeed and to give a variety of food. Mine does not care for mysis and will only eat it if he's totaly starving. You are lucky if yours accept dry food, mine would not.

I will not get him converted to anything else, as I tried many times and he does not care for anything else. Starving him to get him to eat something else will not work either as he does not mind getting very skinny and eating only to bearely survive when he does not like the type of food he's offered. That's why he was so skinny on mysis when I first got him...he was only eating just to stay alive. You can bring a horse to the water but you can't force it to drink.

So mine is very finicky eater..hard to keep and maintain, but I still love that fish and I am doing what it takes to give it a good life.

I don't understand if you fish eat so much, why are they still skinny after 3 weeks? They should be fat by now eating that much? Maybe they have internal parasites and you should treat them. Mine expealed a 6" worm when I treated him with prazipro. if fish eat a lot and still are skinny, then something is not right. Either they have internal parasites or they have been cougth with cyanide and are waisting away.

My yellow tang was skin and bones when I got him and after 3 weeks of good food he was fat as they can be, so that,s strange.

Daniella, I read your thread about your Copperband purchase. Sounds like you have had him for less than 2 months, which is certainly not a lot of experience with these fish. Sounds like he had a tough time too, and having to go through all that medication.

But I will give you credit for trying something new, the white worms, to get him eating again. Though not sure of the longer term effects of feeding these to SW fish,and hope you continue to get him converted over to other foods as well.

[Reef Pilot]

Well, I wouldn't call mine fat, but they are noticeably filling in on the sides, and the stomach area is no longer sunken like when I got them from the fish shop. Pretty well all Copperbands I've seen in the fish shops are on the skinny side.

I make a point of not overfeeding to ensure that no uneaten food can rot in the aquarium. Also, I like to keep them a bit hungry and it helps when trying to get them onto new foods. So the first week, it was just small portions of frozen Mysis, then the 2nd week got them eating bits of clam, and just a few days ago, started them on the freeze dried food . They are definitely eating a lot more, and more often now than the first 2 weeks. So I do beleive they are well on the way to better health and vigor.

Their behavior has changed too, in that they are less timid, more eager at feeding time, and that bit of aggression that you saw in the video was a good sign too. Fish in the wild experience that all the time. If they are strong and healthy, they do not hesitate to defend their territory, or fight to establish their place in the pecking order. What you don't want to see is a fish that can't get away or has to hide in a corner. That type of harassment is definitely stressful.

As for parasites, I have not seen any evidence of that. I was watching very closely for signs of Ich or Velvet, but have not seen any spots, the fins are clear, and no flashing or head shaking. So I have not used any medication. As for internal parasites, might still be possible, and may not know for some time. But as long as they seem healthy, I am certainly not going to throw in any medication.

Also, today I noticed that an Aiptasia is missing on the left side where the smaller guy is. Actually, I can't find any Aiptasia at all on his side of the divider. So not sure it that one moved away somehow on his own or the Copperband ate him. Did not see him do it, though. Have a few rocks with Aiptasia on the other side, so will move one over, and see if he goes after it.

Reef Pilot

[Reef Pilot]

Currently have a Yellow Tang and a Copperband hanging out peacefully in my 120. The Yellow kicked the crap outta the copper for 3 days. He then got placed in the sump for 3 days, brought back in, and now everyone gets along just fine. Copperband will be 2 years old in captivity next month.

Congrats, Dave, on your success with the Copperband. 2 years old is proof enough. Did yours eat Aiptasia?

How did you catch your Yellow Tang? Net won't work for me. I am thinking of trying a trap, but haven't got one, or tried to make one yet.

Reef Pilot

[The Grizz]

Daniella, I think that this bothers you as much as it does me for the simple reason is that CBB don't have a very good survival rate. I had my fist one for 4 months, loved Mysis like it was crack. It would feed right out of my had 2 days after being in my tank. I would feed him 2-3 times a day just to make sure it was eating. All Mysis I feed in soaked in Garlic Extreme and they love it.

But them one day for what ever reason it decided to stop eating anything, just like most do. There are some that have had extremely great success with CCB but after trying 2 of them I will no long bring on home and do feel that they should be left in the big blue.

Until there is an ORA CBB I will Never attempt to keep one.

Reef Pilot, I hope you have a couple CBB that will survive in the home aquarium. Best of luck trying to keep 2 of them in the same tank but I have a gut feeling that you might have to rehome one of them before they kill each other.

[reefwars]

im gonna take a different approach then all the higher morals here and offer advice instead of lecture lecture lecture.......as most who comment here dont practise what they preach.......

my best advice is to work slowly not to add anymore fish and once they are settled in remove the damsel. i love the saying monkey see monkey do and i use it for clowns all the time when it comes to hosting as i find sometimes seeing another clown host a nem will get others to try as well....fish arent born by themselves and get alot out of what they "see"


try making the eggcrate smaller if they can get their nose all the way through so as not to be able to touch each other yet.


try adding moonlights to ease some tension in the dark at night


after the rock you have in there has been there for a while switch it over with the odd new piece from your display so they dont get bored grazing the same rock:)



personally i see no harm so far and it would seem to me your in control of the situation keep researching and constant watch on their behaviors ,study them at night and early in the morning to get their full behavior patterens. do the usual and keep your refuge clean and i would leave them in there untill you have made a solid decision on whther or not they will both go into the display.....



for all those who say " ive bought x amount of coppers now and since they died they are better off left in the ocean" im sure alot of us have lost more of other things like clams,corals,and inverts ......i mean ive lost countless zoas and ive killed off kenyas like no tomorrow , ive been on my 3rd elegance and i know of people who are now losing clams by the handfulls........under those same words all these should be left in the ocean because we lost more than one.

a true fact of this hobby is these animals are very delicate and sometimes we dont quite understand why things happen but their are reasons because they live in the wild so unless we try we will never know......and if by some chance what if the copperband was to go extinct???? would be nice to kow that we could help maintain numbers with captive bred:)


at one time all these things belonged in the ocean only and as time goes by were constantly finding better foods better equipment and better practises....i dont believe in shutting the door especially after weve tried opening it......would be a waste of life given by these animals to us.


cheers man and im down with the "band":drum:

[reefwars]

.

"Until there is an ORA CBB I will Never attempt to keep one."



if we dont learn to keep them then there will never be :)

[intarsiabox]

Well Reef Pilot, what's done is done. I doubt your pet store will take back a marine fish but you could try selling one of them privately if you like. Before you introduce them into your display tank try removing the tang for a while to let the CBB establish territory and after a few weeks the tang will be the new kid on the block and may not be aggressive towards the other fish (maybe). I wouldn't get too upset about trying to keep CBB fish, unless a store only stocks captive bred fish then for every live fish you see in their tanks there is probably 10 dead ones that didn't make it through the process between capture and retail sales. None of us is any better and are all to blame for the many marine animal deaths whether by our own hands or not. So just give it your best effort and maybe you will suprise everyone with 2 healthy CBB's that live for many years. I to had an aggressive yellow tang years ago and the second I tried adding a new fish to the tank he would stab the poor new comer to death in minutes so I had to dismantle my whole reef to get the bugger out and gone for good.

[daniella3d]

No sorry I don't think that the "bit" of aggression we see in that video is anything good. In the wild the loser can surely leave the place but in an aquarium it can't. Fish in the wild can go away, obviously. How can you compare this situation to "fish in the wild"??

This is exactly what will happen in your aquarium, "a fish that can't get away and will hide in a corner..if not killed."

Funny I was just reading an article in the Coral magazine "Triggerfish, FEB 2009" and the article called "No risk no fun" was showing a photo of 2 copperbands kept together and on one pic they are side by side peacefully and the next photo where showing the same fish fighting a bit later. They are talking about the common mistakes that beginners do. Guess who I was thinking of while reading that article?



Their behavior has changed too, in that they are less timid, more eager at feeding time, and that bit of aggression that you saw in the video was a good sign too. Fish in the wild experience that all the time. If they are strong and healthy, they do not hesitate to defend their territory, or fight to establish their place in the pecking order. What you don't want to see is a fish that can't get away or has to hide in a corner. That type of harassment is definitely stressful.

[The Grizz]

for all those who say " ive bought x amount of coppers now and since they died they are better off left in the ocean" im sure alot of us have lost more of other things like clams,corals,and inverts ......i mean ive lost countless zoas and ive killed off kenyas like no tomorrow , ive been on my 3rd elegance and i know of people who are now losing clams by the handfulls........under those same words all these should be left in the ocean because we lost more than one.

I have tried a couple different small SPS frag, died, will not do anymore SPS until to figure out why. My huge duncans suddenly died recently, will not have any more until I figure out why. Several clams as of late, gone, WILL NOT BUY ANOTHER FOR A VERY LONG TIME. If it doesn't live the first time there is no second attempt for a long long time.

I hope you do pull this off with 2 CBB, it would be a awesome success. Could be an article in the making.

Agreed that the ideas Reefwars suggested would be worth a try.

[reefwars]

I have tried a couple different small SPS frag, died, will not do anymore SPS until to figure out why. My huge duncans suddenly died recently, will not have any more until I figure out why. Several clams as of late, gone, WILL NOT BUY ANOTHER FOR A VERY LONG TIME. If it doesn't live the first time there is no second attempt for a long long time.

I hope you do pull this off with 2 CBB, it would be a awesome success. Could be an article in the making.

Agreed that the ideas Reefwars suggested would be worth a try.


crap greg thats some rough luck lately, ive always been following your tank and its weird for sure and within time im sure it will even itself out just frustrating i bet for sure......keep the puchases down to minimum costs just some cheap stuff untill you can figure whats going on is what i probably would do sometimes it just helps to sit back relax, keep it clean dont add anything for a bit and then see where you stand:)


glad to say i have a cube tank build thread starting soon was able to take some nice glass home with me hehe:):)

[The Grizz]

crap greg thats some rough luck lately, ive always been following your tank and its weird for sure and within time im sure it will even itself out just frustrating i bet for sure......keep the puchases down to minimum costs just some cheap stuff untill you can figure whats going on is what i probably would do sometimes it just helps to sit back relax, keep it clean dont add anything for a bit and then see where you stand:)


glad to say i have a cube tank build thread starting soon was able to take some nice glass home with me hehe:):)

I think some of the problem might have been when I was unable to really maintain the tank the way I wanted to do to lack of work.


There are going to be some big changes this year on the 8'er. Big a$$ recirc. skimmer, profilux controller, MH lighting, ATO & water change system, more flow and a bigger tank. Skimmer is on the way.

[Duffer2]

Congrats, Dave, on your success with the Copperband. 2 years old is proof enough. Did yours eat Aiptasia?

How did you catch your Yellow Tang? Net won't work for me. I am thinking of trying a trap, but haven't got one, or tried to make one yet.

Reef Pilot

Yeah mine wipes out aiptasia at an astonishing rate. I have actually swapped a few pieces of rock with a guy who was going to cook his rock and the CBB cleaned it in a couple days. When I introduce aiptasia covered rock or new rock, the CBB seems more interested in the rock then the mysis.

Catching the tang was tricky. Did the whole red flash light in the middle of the night trick. I knew where he slept, and ambushed the bugger.

Interesting thing about my CBB is that I only feed him once a day. He's only ever got PE mysis and he looks as "fat" as any I've seen in captivity. Saying that, I think my pod population seems to keep him fairly busy.

I think a lot of CBB survival is pure luck. Many many better reefers then I have lost them, and this is my first crack and I've been successful. I certainly don't attribute it to anything special or remarkable that I have done. If anything I should give full credit to his previous owner Alberta_Reefer, who got him into such good health when he sold him to me. Good luck with the 2 CBB's.

And remember, the best way by far to save the fishes is skip the sushi!!!

[ensquire]

No sorry I don't think that the "bit" of aggression we see in that video is anything good. In the wild the loser can surely leave the place but in an aquarium it can't. Fish in the wild can go away, obviously. How can you compare this situation to "fish in the wild"??

This is exactly what will happen in your aquarium, "a fish that can't get away and will hide in a corner..if not killed."

Funny I was just reading an article in the Coral magazine "Triggerfish, FEB 2009" and the article called "No risk no fun" was showing a photo of 2 copperbands kept together and on one pic they are side by side peacefully and the next photo where showing the same fish fighting a bit later. They are talking about the common mistakes that beginners do. Guess who I was thinking of while reading that article?


We got your opinion, move on, everyone else has

[MMAX]

X 2

[Reef Pilot]

Wow, more drama here than in my QT tank. Fish are doing fine, not full love and peace, but not the bickering that you saw in that video. They are eating well, and looking very healthy.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I greatly appreciate hearing from people with real experience, both good and bad. I have been doing a lot of research, and see many "internet experts" out there that love to give advice. But sometimes hard to separate fact from opinion. With some, I even wonder if they have a tank, or ever owned the fish in question.

Anyway my plan is pretty close to what reefwars said, and am keeping my options open as to whether I keep one or both Copperbands. They will stay in my QT for a while yet. I want them strong and healthy, before having to face my Yellow Tang. Which BTW, is a beautiful fish, and doing a great job eating algae in my very mature display tank.

Reef Pilot

[daniella3d]

yep...pointless anyway!

We got your opinion, move on, everyone else has