CA reactor or Dosing?

[GMGQ]

I currently have a calcium reactor setup (reactor, CO2 cylinder w/ solenoid, pH probe controller).

I'm considering getting an auto dosing system to replace all that equipment.

I want to reduce the amount of equipment, and have a more precise way of controlling calcium and alk.

PROs & CONs for each system?

TIA

[Aquattro]

I use a reactor, because that's what I have. It works great, and I can't see any reason to get rid of it to buy more stuff. And dosing requires a lot more work than my reactor, as well as containers to hold the supplements. So dosing pump, up to three different jugs of juice and all the lines, doesn't sound like less equipment. I fill my reactor maybe twice a year, fill my CO2 tank and I'm good. I've used it for 8 years now, so for me, tweaking is pretty easy.
I think for someone just getting into it, there are two sides to consider, but if you already have a reactor, I'd just stick with it.

[don.ald]

i auto dose. never had a reactor.
LOL many times i think that i want a reactor because it may be less work?
it is work to keep the containers filled, and costly, and the dosers need to be serviced ongoing. and IMO same cost as a reactor. (i dont know what it costs for media to run a reactor?)
hey maybe we should trade?
my dosing equip for your reactor equip:mrgreen:

[amoreira]

Cost of a Reactor:

Fixed Cost (initial equipment): $400 for the reactor + $150 for CO2 regulator (I use a beverage supplier to get the CO2 + tank).

Variable Cost: ~$50/year for the CO2 and $40 per year for the media.

Advantages of CO2 reactor:

1) After initial set-up, it's very low maintenance... Every 3 months I put in new media. Every 8 months, I call up the beverage supplier and swap out the 20 lb CO2 container.

2) Keeps alk and calcium levels balanced and stable.

3) Aragonite media contains trace elements, strontium, magnesium etc. that your corals need and at the right ratios.

4) Fancy looking set-up that you can use to impress your friends/chicks etc..

Disadvantages:

1) Initial setup can be tricky. Getting the water drip and CO2 injection rates right does require some trial and error (but so does 2 part dosing). That been said, CO2 reactors tend to give you a balanced/stable water chemistry, once set up and in steady state.

1) Media may be a source of phosphates. This is nothing GFO couldn't clean up.

2) Overdosing CO2 can cause algal bloom and pH to drop. I don't control CO2 dosing with a pH meter on the outlet of the reactor, but use a timer (9 minutes of CO2 dosing every hour). This prevents CO2 overdosing because of pH meter failure. The pH in my tank is very stable and swings between 8.1 and 8.3. I've personally never had any pH issues because of the CO2 reactor. Good lighting and a kick-rear skimmer with compensate for any pH reduction due to a properly set up skimmer.

3) Low drip rate of water through the reactor can be difficult to control. The biggest success I've had with this is using a slip stream from the outlet of my circulation pump (i.e. the pump that pumps water back to the display tank from the sump). Plugging of this flow leads to overdosing CO2 into the reactor and the media can turn to mush if this is allowed to continue for a lengthy period. I've used powerhead type pumps and have had problems with them eventually leaking current (although they're just as effective as using a slip stream). I've used Aqua Medic dosing pump and the Oscar aqua lifter pump and found neither have enough oomph and often plugged. The slip stream method worked best and I eliminated another source of current leakage in my tank.

[Rus]

I have used all sorts of reactors over the years , ( from cheaper models up to $700 + Deltecs ) and had found no matter what style or model I used I was always finding I had to tweak the flowrate at least weekly if not more. Seemed like there was always something to be fiddling with. I now have been running my Dosing system on my tank for almost 6 months ( Profilux ) and I must say I can not believe I didn't switch earlier to it. It takes me 10 minutes or so once a month to make up my supplements using bulk mixes , and I'm good for the month. Once dialed in , it has been rock solid numbers every week without changing a thing , and ZERO maintenance.

By far the best change I have done in years of reef-keeping . Cost wise is very minimal I find on 400 + gal system , in comparison to ease of use. I'm guessing $10 - 15 a month at the most , which in my opinion , if that seems too much I shouldn't be running this size of tank in the first place. :)

HTH

[StirCrazy]

Like every one so far has said. if you already have the Ca reactor setup there is realy no advantage to switching.

the reactor was explained but also a few other advantages. the main one being it takes up less room than a dosing system.

so a dosing system also has advantages,

one being the cool factor,
two bwing the ability to meter the exact amount of suplememnts you need (this can also be a disadvantage as the more stuff you want to control the more pumps you need and the more containers you need)
and three could do a neater install setup with everything remote mounted.

as for weather you should switch.. I think it would be a waist of money as you wouldn't realy gain anything out fo the switch except more work, and a tech fix.

Steve

[GMGQ]

Yes I find it's iffy to dial in te drip rate and bubble count, as it doesn't stay consistent. After a while the tubing would get hard and clogged so than affect drip rate.

The reactor and Co2 cylinder are big and bulky. Whereas there are triple pump dosers with buIlt in timers, so I could mount that on the wall and have 3 jugs on the floor.

As far as cost, I could sell the reactor setup and invest in dosing equipment.

Hmmmmmmm....

[untamed]

Yes I find it's iffy to dial in te drip rate and bubble count, as it doesn't stay consistent. After a while the tubing would get hard and clogged...
Hmmmmmmm....

Bubble rate is not significant if you are using a controller for your co2.

Add a peristaltic pump to control flow to eliminate drip rate problems. Cheaper than adding three peristaltic pumps for dosing.

[Aquattro]

My setup is really easy. I have a stream coming out of the reactor, no drip rate. I run CO2 full time at a bubble per second, and control output via flow. More flow = less contact with CO2. I tweak it about every 3 months as growth rate expands, and fill it every 8 or 9 months.

[GMGQ]

Well I can get a triple pump doser with individual built in timers/displays for $170.

The controller turns off the CO2if the pH in the reactor gets too low.

Bubble rate is not significant if you are using a controller for your co2.

Add a peristaltic pump to control flow to eliminate drip rate problems. Cheaper than adding three peristaltic pumps for dosing.

[e46er]

i bought a double dosing pump for about $310 bux after taxes
http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=am-d370105
I never ran a reactor but i was stuck in the middle i had 30 pounds of dry dosing products and a full co2 set up front an old planted tank. the decision was made based on my already full stand with a 3 footsump and closed loop pump in a stand with an inside total length of 40 " so i was going to have something sitting outside the stand..........2-1G jugs or a co2 tank/regulator and a calcium reactor pump ect..........

i hung the pump unit in the stand and have 2-1G jugs that are between a chair and the stand so you barely notice them

I always found it was a severe pain in the ass for me to get my co2 tank filled as i work close to home and the closest/decent priced fill was 45 min in rush hour.

so i figured from my situation the reactor was uglyier noiser and more expensive to set up some people say set and forget some have to tinker none stop

dosing I throw some baking soda on a baking sheet bake for an hour fill a 1 g jug with the baking soda and water shake and im done calcium is measure and pour into jug and shake done.
im lazy so i throw it in a 5 G pail with a powerhead for a couple min to mix but shaking works as well.
I go through just over a pound of Ca and a pound of baking soda a month so costs for chemicals are under $5 a month and maybe 4 pounds Mag a year

i ordered dry chemicals 20 lbs at a time and shipping isnt too bad

[mark]

Well I can get a triple pump doser with individual built in timers/displays for $170.



care to share where?

[GMGQ]

eBay

care to share where?

[GMGQ]

If the water is just streaming out of the reactor, then the pH in the reactor would not be low enough to break down the aragonite. Doesn't the pH have to be around 6.5 in the reactor?

If it's just streaming through the reactor, it would be closer to the level of ur tank, which is around 8.2.


My setup is really easy. I have a stream coming out of the reactor, no drip rate. I run CO2 full time at a bubble per second, and control output via flow. More flow = less contact with CO2. I tweak it about every 3 months as growth rate expands, and fill it every 8 or 9 months.

[amoreira]

I don't steadily bubble in the CO2, but let it bubble in at a good rate for 9 minutes every hour. The amount of CO2 in the water becomes saturated in the column. Some excess CO2 gets blown off, but the amount of CO2 in the water is the same every time as it's saturated. The pressure in the column rises to the point were the flow of water through it stops. Eventually, enough CO2 gets blown off or dissolves in the water that the pressure drops and the flow through it resumes. The pH drops and a good amount of aragonite gets dissolved. This method gives me stable Ca/alk parameters. Maybe I'm using too much CO2, but it's not a big waste in my opinion.

[Aquattro]

If the water is just streaming out of the reactor, then the pH in the reactor would not be low enough to break down the aragonite. Doesn't the pH have to be around 6.5 in the reactor?

If it's just streaming through the reactor, it would be closer to the level of ur tank, which is around 8.2.

In theory, but with CO2 running full time, contact time is enough to dissolve the media. I'm down about 1.5 inches in 2 months, 6" dia. reaction chamber. Flow is through an micro irrigation drip valve, so not a huge stream, but it is a constant flow.

[abcha0s]

Well I can get a triple pump doser with individual built in timers/displays for $170.

Be careful here. Not all paristaltic pumps are created equal.

I've owned several peristaltic pumps including the aquamedic and spectrapure litermeter pumps. I can tell you that you get what you pay for. I would never dose with anything of lesser quality than a profilux.

Perhaps your problem is with your reactor. You already own the co2 hardware. Maybe you should just upgrade to a better reactor? Possibly add pH control?

I personally really like my vertex rx6 duo calcium reactor. I previously owned a Deltec which I paid more for and really didn't like. I guess you don't always get what you pay for :smile:

[Dez]

I've only every run a reactor and for me it's set and forget. I haven't tested anything in my tank in about half a year now and I run a full blown sps tank. I get good growth and I'm a relatively lazy reefer who doesn't do much for maintenance. I've never tried a doser so I can't compare. I just run the reactor with a steady stream coming out and control the ph within the reactor with my aquacontroller III. Hope this helps.

[StirCrazy]

Yes I find it's iffy to dial in te drip rate and bubble count, as it doesn't stay consistent. After a while the tubing would get hard and clogged so than affect drip rate.

are you using a needle valve for your adjustment? also a flow meter is way way better than a presure only unit, shouldn't have any issue dialing it in. for your tubing you need to use CO2 grade tubing. I have had my CO2 running on my freshwater tank for over 10 years on the same tubing.

The reactor and Co2 cylinder are big and bulky. Whereas there are triple pump dosers with buIlt in timers, so I could mount that on the wall and have 3 jugs on the floor.

youll find the 3 jugs on the floor take up a larger area than a reactor and co2, not by much mind you.

As far as cost, I could sell the reactor setup and invest in dosing equipment.

Hmmmmmmm....

yup you could.. ever seen what a used reactor set up goes for ... not much. :mrgreen:


but for the record so I don't seam pro reactor and anti dosing, my new set up will be dosing, but only because I don't have a reactor right now, well thats not realy true.. I have a 3/4 finnished DIY one and I still have all my hardware for it.

but I am building my own controler and dosing pump set up which is also going to have a larger capacity pump installed in it for water top off also.

Steve

[Haloreef]

I have to agree with Russ! Last year I was having all sorts of problems with my reactor, I could not keep anything stable. I eventually tracked it down to a faulty pump. Instead of fixing or buying a new reactor I thought I would try the dosing pumps. I think you would be hard pressed to get me to change back. A little trial and error was needed to dial them in but once I was at the levels I was aiming for things have been rock solid. I mixed up 5 gallons of each liquid so 5 minutes tops every month to top of the jars and thats it. I have only been running the pumps for 6 months but, so far, I am sold on dosing.
Keith.

[GMGQ]

Great feedback everyone, thanks so much.

I think my main issue could be the CO2 regulator/solenoid.

I've been reading about this new Digital CO2 regulator. No more mechanical needle valves/bubble counters -- this one is all digital/electronic. You turn a dial to set the # of bubbles, and that's it. $170. They'll even install it on your existing regulator for you for free (you just gotta ship it to them).

So that's another option... Hmm....

Well my reactor setup has been running steady the past 3 days. I'll just keep an eye on it and 'make do' with it for now. But I'm glad there has been some good discussion on this topic, as it's good to know for the next setup (or if I get fed up with this one!).

Thanks again everyone!

[Dez]

As far as an accurate bubble counter, I have a really crappy 8 year old rusty one and I can't dial it in even if I tried. So to fix the problem, I just set the bubbles to come out in sort of a steady stream (so that I can't count them), and I just let my controller turn the solenoid on the CO2 on and off. This has worked really well for me. The controller keeps the ph in the reactor stable. I used to try to dial in the "bubbles per second" years ago, but I just ended up letting the controller do the work and that's the best thing that I've done with the whole reactor set up. Hope this helps.

[GMGQ]

Hmm, so basically you would let the reactor flood with CO2 until the pH is too low, then your pH controller would shut off the CO2, and the reactor would slowly fill back up with regular pH water, then the controller would restart the flow of CO2?

What CA level do you maintain?


As far as an accurate bubble counter, I have a really crappy 8 year old rusty one and I can't dial it in even if I tried. So to fix the problem, I just set the bubbles to come out in sort of a steady stream (so that I can't count them), and I just let my controller turn the solenoid on the CO2 on and off. This has worked really well for me. The controller keeps the ph in the reactor stable. I used to try to dial in the "bubbles per second" years ago, but I just ended up letting the controller do the work and that's the best thing that I've done with the whole reactor set up. Hope this helps.

[Dez]

Hmm, so basically you would let the reactor flood with CO2 until the pH is too low, then your pH controller would shut off the CO2, and the reactor would slowly fill back up with regular pH water, then the controller would restart the flow of CO2?

What CA level do you maintain?

Yes, that's the basic idea except it's not as exaggerated as it sounds. The CO2 will kick on and off as needed. I set the controller to maintain the ph in the reactor chamber between 6.65 and 6.67. To be honest with you I have no idea what my calcium and alk is. My target a year ago when I did test was 380-400. I have over 100 sps colonies in my tank that has been in there for more than a year and they were mostly grown from frags. Quite a few of the colonies are reaching the 12" mark or have surpassed that size. I haven't tested in over 6 months as I found the groove after quite a few months and realized that my reactor keeps up with the growth. I probably fill the reactor with an entire jar of ARM media every 4 - 6 months maybe? So the reactor media is definitely being consumed and used by the corals. I've never used the dosing method and I don't think I want to try. I know that the reactor media is a balanced way of maintaining calcium/alk.

Know that I'm not trying to persuade you either way, just giving you my experience as to what has worked well for me. I have seen gorgeous tanks on the dosing method as well. I think I'm a "try to get away with as little maintenance as possible" kind of guy.

I had a Deltec reactor and I didn't like the way it opened and closed so I bought a reactor that was easier to fill. I have the dual chamber Reef Octopus reactor and it has a screw top - this is AWESOME!. Simply turn reactor off, unscrew the top, drain the water a bit, and fill with new media, then screw it back on. the deltec had a twist top that you had to twist about 1/8th of a turn but it was a pain cause it was so difficult to do that I had to take it offline, stick it between my legs, hold it with my legs and tug as hard as I could and I thought it would break every time I filled it.

Hope this long ramble helps.

[Aquattro]

Dez, how long do you go between cleanings on your pH probe? I have one, and a holder to install in my reactor, just kinda lazy if I have to clean the probe too often..

[StirCrazy]

I have the dual chamber Reef Octopus reactor and it has a screw top - this is AWESOME!. Simply turn reactor off, unscrew the top, drain the water a bit, and fill with new media, then screw it back on.
Hope this long ramble helps.

don't you clean the pulp out inbetween fills?

when I built my first reactor I make it hold 55 lbs of ARM so I only had to clean it and refill once a year :mrgreen:

as for bubble counters.. make your own. a chunk of 2" dia tube, about 6" long, seal the top and bottom and drill two holes in the bottom to accept JG 1/4 to 1/4NPT tap the holes put a chunk of tube that goes to almost the top of the unit and then put a plug in the top face for filling. use glycerin or mineral oil inside the bubble counter instead of water unless you have one of thoes silly ones that automaticly fill the bubble counter with water.. if so I am sure you can disable this feature. and finaly spend the 20 bucks on a good 1/4" needle valve and use this to control the bubble rate. so all ou are using you regulator to do is put a specific pressure out and you use the good brass needle valve to set the bubble flow.

using a more viscous fluid will make it simpler to set your bubble speed. I know mine I would set the bubbles then re adjust after about an hour after the pressure inside the reactor stabalizes then I would check it once a week.. went 8 months with out touching it.

Steve

[Dez]

Dez, how long do you go between cleanings on your pH probe? I have one, and a holder to install in my reactor, just kinda lazy if I have to clean the probe too often..

I give it a good wipe/rinse every time I change the media cause the probe goes in the lid. Seems to work well I guess.

[Aquattro]

I give it a good wipe/rinse every time I change the media cause the probe goes in the lid. Seems to work well I guess.

So every 4-6 months? That I could manage :)

[amoreira]

Just to let those that might be interested know and I hope I'm not interjecting here.

I don't bother with pH control in chamber. The reason is that if the flow through the chamber stopped or the probe failed, the controller had no means to handle this (i.e. no controller wind-up proection). I use a timer instead and bubble CO2 in the chamber for a period of 9 minutes every hour. The bubbles are introduced at a good rate and I'm sure that the pH in the chamber is dropped to a level that the aragonite will dissolve. I used trial and error to come up with the 9 minutes, just as one would with finding the sweet spot for a 2-part doser. I don't bother trying to target any particular bubble rate - just vigorous bubbles.