Protein Skimmer Power Bar Failure Death Toll....

[ensquire]

Went to work last night and everything was fine, Got up this morning and noticed a carcass in the tank. then another . Noticed that the skimmer was not running, Coralife POS, so i took it out and placed in sink and plugged it in. Working just fine. Power bar not working at all.
So far the casualties are :
Flame Angel
Pink Skunk Clown

MIA:
3 Spot Damsel
Pink Skunk Clown
2 Cleaner Shrimp
Bi Color Blennie

Not Looking Good:
Tomato Clown
Coral Banded Shrimp

Hope the others show up but, doubtful they will as they are usually front and center.
Blennie was one of my favorites.
Least favorite fish are all good , why does it always work like that ???

[globaldesigns]

I find it hard to believe that you are having this issue, from a skimmer not running for the night. Now that the powerbar failed, did you have all your powerheads hooked up to it. You are probably having these issues due to no water movement, no re-oxynation of the water.

Sorry to hear about your issue, I hope things work out and you don't lose to many more.

If I can recommend something.... Get a APC UPS (power bar with built in battery). You then plug in the powerheads into the spots that provide the battery backup. If you ever have a power outage or issues in the future, then the powerheads keep going and hopefully no issues. Remember if no flow, oxygen will run out in the water column.

Good luck!!!

[kien]

oh geez, that's terrible! sorry to hear :( did the powerbar just die or did it trip? It is amazing how quickly the tank can be deprived of oxygen once its primary source is removed. I suspect that's what happened, unless you had a heater on that powerbar too, well, then it was all sorts of bad!! :cry:

[ensquire]

The Skimmer was only thing on the power bar and it failed. but may have been like that for 12 hours . Long time without O2. heading to store right now for back up.
Thanks

[kien]

The Skimmer was only thing on the power bar and it failed. but may have been like that for 12 hours . Long time without O2. heading to store right now for back up.
Thanks

Ya, oxygen can deplete very quickly, especially in a small(ish) tank. I've had this happen myself. Since then I've kept a couple of emergency air pumps and stones on hand just in case.

[globaldesigns]

Again, my concern is that only your skimmer re-oxynated your water. Do you have flow in your tank? Using powerheads at the surface to aggitate the water at the top, helps to re-oxygenate. I would look at how you have things configured, as not having a skimmer running for 12 hours should not kill things. I think your problem is bigger than a bad powerbar overall. IMO...

[ensquire]

Again, my concern is that only your skimmer re-oxynated your water. Do you have flow in your tank? Using powerheads at the surface to aggitate the water at the top, helps to re-oxygenate. I would look at how you have things configured, as not having a skimmer running for 12 hours should not kill things. I think your problem is bigger than a bad powerbar overall. IMO...

I have a Coralife 65 skimmer, 2 Koralia powerheads and a fluval 204 so there was still some flow . I agree that it was a quick kill off though. Furthur investagation is needed.

[Carrera75]

Again, my concern is that only your skimmer re-oxynated your water. Do you have flow in your tank? Using powerheads at the surface to aggitate the water at the top, helps to re-oxygenate. I would look at how you have things configured, as not having a skimmer running for 12 hours should not kill things. I think your problem is bigger than a bad powerbar overall. IMO...

+1
The fact that your skimmer stopped working has nothing to do with the death of your fish unless that's the only thing moving/circulating the water in your tank.

I have not used a skimmer since day one and my tank does EXTREMELY well, corals grow like crazy and everything is very happy. Fish or corals don't die just because the skimmer stopped working.

Cheers

[Binare]

Im running a skimmer now for the first time in years and only during the day when im gone cause the noise drives me nuckin futs. Id definately look for another issue like pointed out, flow... gas exchange etc. What are you running for equipment?

[ensquire]

Im running a skimmer now for the first time in years and only during the day when im gone cause the noise drives me nuckin futs. Id definately look for another issue like pointed out, flow... gas exchange etc. What are you running for equipment?


36 gallon Tank
Corallife 65 Skimmer
double glo fixture 1 Actinic 1 sunglo
2 Koralia 1 heads
fluval 205 ( Carbon , Biomax ammonia)

[kien]

Ya, if you've got other forms of oxygenation like surface agitation or an overflow into a sump a skimmer flaking out shouldn't nuke your tank so quick. However, if you don't have any of the above and the protein skimmer is the only thing oxygenating your tank then you are in trouble if it goes. If the tank is relying on the skimmer like this and the skimmer goes your fish can and will likely die.

[ensquire]

Coral Banded shrimp is now Nem treat

[Binare]

Whats your ammonia at right now?

[daniella3d]

I stop my skimmer each night..never killed anything.

I really doubt this has to do with your skimmer stopping for one night. I have been stopping my skimmer for the night since the tank was started a year ago. I stop my skimmer from 10:00 pm till around 9:00 am, but when I left for vacations the skimmer was off for a week. Nah...something else is going on in your tank. You should verify for disease, if you added something recently. Velvet is not always apparent. Also you should check that your powerheads are doing enough surface agitation.

Right now in my nano 21 gallons I have a 3" blue hippo (sold and going away friday) a 4" kole tang (temporary there) and a blue damsel, all without skimmer. Everybody are top shape. I run the skimmer once in a while, maybe once every 2 days. Neither of my tank have a sump. Simply water agitation with circulation pumps.




The Skimmer was only thing on the power bar and it failed. but may have been like that for 12 hours . Long time without O2. heading to store right now for back up.
Thanks

[The Grizz]

Dude crappy deal! I agree with everyone there has to be another underlying problem to kill that fast. Check your parameters carefully and let us know what they are.

[kien]

It certainly is worth investigating other potential causes. Although, I do find it suspect that this happened right when your skimmer died. Were your fish showing any signs of distress? Rubbing against rocks? Have you tested your water parameters as Grizz suggested? Some fish not eating?

Still, in my opinion, this is a high bio load to sustain without proper oxygenation for a period of time, especially with the only two powerheads not pointing at the surface for surface agitation. It doesn't take long for one or two fish to get stressed due to lower oxygen levels as some require more than others. Then they start gasping and breathing heavier and heavier depleting oxygen faster and faster. You multiply this by a few more fish and you could be in big trouble fast. Then your first few fish die and you pretty much have a meltdown :cry:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18798128/36%20Gallon%20Tank/36%20gallon%20pics%20FTS%20001-800.jpg

[outacontrol]

What is the temp of the tank, the higher the temp the lower the oxygen capacity of the water is and the wasted the metabolic rate of the fish is.
I do not think the death is from the skimmer failure, I have 7 fish in a 33gallon tank that has no overflow, no sump, no skimmer and I have no problems. I have an mp10 turned way down and a koralia that's it that's all. With weekly water changes everything is awesome.
How often do you do water changes? Do you have a lid? What about salinity swings due to evaporation?

[kien]

Consider also that the fish are not the only things consuming oxygen in your tank. Nitrifying bacteria and algaes will consume oxygen as well. Further, at night (when this skimmer died incidentally), some algaes will breath and consume oxygen contributing to the oxygen depletion.

Also, oxygen saturation will occur somewhere between roughly 6 and 8 parts per million in a saltwater tank while this number ultimately depends upon temperature, salinity and elevation. Temperature has the most effect, higher temp means lower oxygen holding potential of the water as outacontrol mentioned. This means that the water molecules have absorbed as much oxygen as they can easily hold under the present conditions. Any more oxygen added will be released back into the atmosphere.

Ultimately you have to get oxygen into the tank somehow. It doesn't have to be a skimmer, or an air stone, or a powerhead, but something has to add oxygen to the water. If the tank relied on one source of oxygen (whatever that source was) and that source happened to go and your tank was now consuming more oxygen than what is being added, you can reach a point of deprivation.

Occam's Razor.

[Megalodon]

What are your water parameters?

[ensquire]

Temperature 79
Specific Gravity 1.025 1.024
pH 7.9 8
Alkalinity 220 mg/l 196.9/1
Ammonia 0 0
Nitrite 0.1 0.01
Nitrate 20 20
Phosphate .5 .5

Last 2 reading prior
will update
Appreciate all the help.

[ensquire]

And I might add that the day before everything was looking very healthy.
I didn't do any tests but HONESTLY are there not days you just look at your tank and say "OH YEAH"

[daniella3d]

the oxygen depletion from the algae must not be that bad because I have tons of macroalgae in my tank and I shut down my skimmer at night. No problem what so ever. I really have lots of caulerpa. When it goes sexual all my water become cloudy white and sometime I wake up to a very cloudy tank but nothing seem affected. I start the skimmer and it goes away in few hours. My coral seem to even like the spores.

My temperature is 76F though, so I guess that surely help to keep a good level of oxygen in my tank. Bioload in 75 gallons: kole tang, niger trigger, copperband butterfly, clownfish, 3 pajama cardinal, green mandarin.

Maybe it was a combinaison of a few things?

Nitrifying bacteria and algaes will consume oxygen as well. Further, at night (when this skimmer died incidentally), some algaes will breath and consume oxygen contributing to the oxygen depletion.
Occam's Razor.

[Aquattro]

The thing with oxygen is not adding it, but removing CO2. any water surface movement should off gas the CO2 in the system, making the water absorb more O2. If the power heads were causing any type of water surface movement, you should have been fine. Lots of tanks run without a skimmer at all, and do just fine. Not sure what to look for, but I can't see this being from the skimmer turning off.

[Megalodon]

And I might add that the day before everything was looking very healthy.
I didn't do any tests but HONESTLY are there not days you just look at your tank and say "OH YEAH"When things die I usually test the water.

[pscott99]

I do agree with all that's been said.....BUT....if a power bar shorts out could it have not sent an electrical shock to the tank ? Electricity plus water equals death. Are your power bars etc safely away from the floor. Surprised the skimmer is still working and didn't short out the pump. Check for a proper ground on your power ? I'm not an electrician but...

[daniella3d]

Well if the skimmer is still working that mean that there was no short circuit in the tank. Most power bar have a circuit breaker to prevent this.

Probably a short circuit and electricity leaking in the tank would have killed everything at once. I don't see how a fish can survive this, nor corals. I have read about heaters craking and causing electrocution of the tank and everything was totaly dead..corals, fishes and all.



I do agree with all that's been said.....BUT....if a power bar shorts out could it have not sent an electrical shock to the tank ? Electricity plus water equals death. Are your power bars etc safely away from the floor. Surprised the skimmer is still working and didn't short out the pump. Check for a proper ground on your power ? I'm not an electrician but...

[kien]

The thing with oxygen is not adding it, but removing CO2. any water surface movement should off gas the CO2 in the system, making the water absorb more O2. If the power heads were causing any type of water surface movement, you should have been fine. Lots of tanks run without a skimmer at all, and do just fine. Not sure what to look for, but I can't see this being from the skimmer turning off.

I have a skimmerless tank too and ya it has done just fine. Thankfully it is not my primary source of oxygen or surface agitation on that tank tho and there aren't a lot of fish in there. But, what if a tank had it's powerheads pointing down and there was little to no surface agitation? It looked to me like the skimmer was the only thing agitating the surface and as you said, CO2 needs to exhaust from the tank as well. Loss off primary oxygen source and surface agitation to expel excess CO2 to me spells doom. I don't see why the loss of a skimmer CAN'T be the cause. Sure, there MAY have been some other cause but given the facts we know, the skimmer seems to me to be the most likely culprit by making the least number of add assumptions. Fish are perfectly fine one day, then skimmer dies over night, fish dead the next day.. No, can't be the skimmer??

I realize that a lot of people, myself included run skimmerless just fine but I don't see that being the point here. My skimmerless tank and your skimmerless tank is not the same as this skimmerless tank. We all know perfectly well that every single tank is different. Two people could be running the exact same setup but still get different results. Just because you are successful without a skimmer doesn't mean another tank without a skimmer will be equally successful. The same applies to pretty much everything in this hobby, biopellets, zeovit, salt brands, RO water vs tap water, etc..

[Aquattro]

Kien, I can't really disagree with you, as it does seem that obviously that was the deciding factor. I can't tell why, but the skimmer appears to have been the "last straw", indicating some other factor in play. My point, I guess, was that it "shouldn't" have been the skimmer, as lots of skimmerless tanks don't have powerheads pointing at the surface, or other forms of noticeable surface agitation. Maybe a too heavily stocked tank, high CO2 content in the room, etc. Lots of factors could have contributed, with the skimmer being the buffer. No skimmer, tank crossed the boundary into this situation.
It's always tough to diagnose something like this online. I'll revise my comment to be " while it's obvious the skimmer was the major contributor, it shouldn't have been", meaning I think there was a secondary cause.

[kien]

Being in Yellowknife your house must be fairly sealed up for a good portion of the year. Curious, what form of ventilation do you have? This is yet another variable that is different from some other people. Not too many reefers in Yellowknife I dont think. There is typically a major in house CO2 spike during the winter months especially for cold weather climates. The skimmer could have been keeping O2 and CO2 in the tank in a fragile balance, but once it was gone, the scale tipped in the wrong direction.

Sure, a lot of people can get away with not using a skimmer or not having to point their powerheads at the surface, but those same people may not have the same environmental challenges that your tank might be faced with being in Yellowknife. Again, there are so many variables from one tank to the other that you can't always say, "hey, well, Fred over there has the exact same tank as me and he doesn't use a skimmer, so I'll be perfectly fine without one too". "And hey, Joe over there doesn't point his power heads at the water surface, so why should I??" We all know the hobby doesn't work that way. It may very well be that your tank needs more aggressive oxygenation and gas exhaust than other tanks.

[daniella3d]

+1, That's what I meant as well. Not that it did not cause the death of fish, but rather it shouldn't have caused the death of all these fishes.

There is some real problems with that tank that must be addressed before this happen again, skimmer or no skimmer.

My point, I guess, was that it "shouldn't" have been the skimmer, as lots of skimmerless tanks don't have powerheads pointing at the surface, or other forms of noticeable surface agitation.

[kien]

Hindsight is 20/20. It is easy enough to say now that the skimmer going titz up should not have killed your fish, but how could one have predicted that before hand? Like so many people here suggested, their tanks are fine
without a skimmer or powerheads pointing at the surface so yours should be fine too. Well, what happend when the skimmer went offline? How could you possibly account for all possible scenarios that are affecting your thank, many of which are intangible.

No doubt this hobby is tricky like that. It is difficult for anyone to predict these sorts of things. Running BioPellets shouldn't nuke my tank, but can it? Will it? Running ZeoVit shouldn't nuke my tank, but can it? Will it? This heater shouldn't die, but can it? Will it? Turning my skimmer off shouldn't nuke my tank, but can it? Will it?

[ensquire]

Being in Yellowknife your house must be fairly sealed up for a good portion of the year. Curious, what form of ventilation do you have? This is yet another variable that is different from some other people. Not too many reefers in Yellowknife I dont think. There is typically a major in house CO2 spike during the winter months especially for cold weather climates. The skimmer could have been keeping O2 and CO2 in the tank in a fragile balance, but once it was gone, the scale tipped in the wrong direction.

Sure, a lot of people can get away with not using a skimmer or not having to point their powerheads at the surface, but those same people may not have the same environmental challenges that your tank might be faced with being in Yellowknife. Again, there are so many variables from one tank to the other that you can't always say, "hey, well, Fred over there has the exact same tank as me and he doesn't use a skimmer, so I'll be perfectly fine without one too". "And hey, Joe over there doesn't point his power heads at the water surface, so why should I??" We all know the hobby doesn't work that way. It may very well be that your tank needs more aggressive oxygenation and gas exhaust than other tanks.

Houses here are sealed up tightly yes. And in this older home we have a very passive exchange system. Just a couple of vents in washrooms and kitchen.
I have to get my test kit back from work and retest everything again to verify things. But everything left in the tank is healthy, happy, & hungry again today.
I agree with the idea that the skimmer shutting down for 12 hrs shouldnt have killed 7 previously healthy inhabitants, and until I confirm parameters I (we ) just don't get it .
I will change angle of powerheads if everyone thinks that that could be a problem, but the fluval return does point at the surface and agitates quite well. Maybe the fluval needs to be taken out of the equation , maybe it is a nutrient trap?

Final Tally
2 Pink Clowns
Bi color Blennie
Flame Angel
2 cleaner Shrimp
Coral Banded Shrimp

[ensquire]

What is the temp of the tank, the higher the temp the lower the oxygen capacity of the water is and the wasted the metabolic rate of the fish is.
I do not think the death is from the skimmer failure, I have 7 fish in a 33gallon tank that has no overflow, no sump, no skimmer and I have no problems. I have an mp10 turned way down and a koralia that's it that's all. With weekly water changes everything is awesome.
How often do you do water changes? Do you have a lid? What about salinity swings due to evaporation?


Current temp is 79

[The Grizz]

Hey Mike, canister filter can be nitrate bombs if they are not cleaned out weekly. I found this out the hard way as well when I first started SW. There are a few peeps using canisters so it would be interesting to find out how often they clean them out.

[jorjef]

Weekly with water changes... Floss should be twice a week.... only run carbon and floss in canister.

[Aquattro]

but how could one have predicted that before hand?

Not sure of the point here. I don't think anyone is trying to assign blame for not predicting this could happen. It's just more of a surprise that this can happen, and at this point, hindsight is all we have. Point is, stuff died. Maybe some of the suggestions can alleviate it happening again? Or to someone else...

[ensquire]

Not sure of the point here. I don't think anyone is trying to assign blame for not predicting this could happen. It's just more of a surprise that this can happen, and at this point, hindsight is all we have. Point is, stuff died. Maybe some of the suggestions can alleviate it happening again? Or to someone else...

Thats the biggest advantage to cruising these forums, the wealth of info is unparalleled and a real resource as I am now learning.
If it prevents me from having recurring problems and keeps it from happening to others we have acheived our goals..

Fluval is going BYE BYE
Water change to follow

I will post further results

[daniella3d]

I do have one large canister filter on my tank and my nitrates are undetectible. I clean mine every 6 to 8 weeks when I do my water change. Never had a problem with my canister filters. I had one before on the nano 21 gallons but it broke so I stop using it but I still use it in my 75 gallons.

I have filter floss in it and GFO.


Hey Mike, canister filter can be nitrate bombs if they are not cleaned out weekly. I found this out the hard way as well when I first started SW. There are a few peeps using canisters so it would be interesting to find out how often they clean them out.

[kien]

Not sure of the point here. I don't think anyone is trying to assign blame for not predicting this could happen. It's just more of a surprise that this can happen, and at this point, hindsight is all we have. Point is, stuff died. Maybe some of the suggestions can alleviate it happening again? Or to someone else...

Agreed, I don't think anyone is passing blame here, nor should they! However, there does appear to be a lot of predicting going on as to how this tank should or should not have behaved in this scenario but it is hard to predict these sorts of things.

[golf nut]

I can't tell why, but the skimmer appears to have been the "last straw", indicating some other factor in play.


I agree, there is something else happening.