Cleaning your tank during a showing of ICH

[pyke]

I recently had a Hippo Tang showing a few dots of ich verry mild but still concerning. I have never had ICH in the tank and am lost as to how it got there as we quarentine all incoming fish. (maybe the parasite hichiked on a coral or snail shell during is reproduction stage?)

problem number 1 is I have a 180 reef with tonnes of rock, catching one fish never mind all of them is impossible without ripping apart the entire tank. I would love to quarantine all the fish but this is a complete last resort. moving 250+ lbs of rock and coral is not my favorte past time.

I talked to I think every salt LFS in the entire city and all of them have these Miracle cures (medic, Kick Ich, ich x) I am not sayng they wont help but has anyone had success with these? have they had any effect on coral even though they say their reef safe.

Finally I had one store tell me that I should be doing 20% water changes every two day and cleaning the tank before each change, while another store told me not to clean the tank for fear of stiring up the reproducting ich, and just allow them to stay dorment and not attach to any fish so they can die off.

Should I be Cleaning the tanks? should I be doing large frequent water changes? should I look at trying a Miracle cure? any suggestions would be appreciated?

[daniella3d]

wow..that one is stupid, don't ever go there again. Ich won't go dormant, this is temperature dependant if the water is too cold (that would kill your fish). At normal temperature the ich kill will not go dormant and die there...wow, really stupid thing to say. Even if a cyst go dormant for many weeks, it will not die, it will eventualy hatch.

The more you remove the more you will control the parasites. Do you have coral and invertabrates? you would slowly, over the course of one week, lower the salinity if you don't have any coral. That kill everything though..pods and all dusters, shrimp, crabs, seastars, everything that is not fish. So this is not something possible in a reef tank, only in quarantine tank.

Those miracle cure does nothing. Generaly the ich goes away on its own. You can try soaking the hippo food in garlic and leave it in peace for a while to help reduce the stress. It may not even be ich? maybe he hit himself on the rock and got some little pimples? that hapened to my hippo when he dashed on a motipora and got a few pieces of coral incrusted in his skin for a few days.

Syphoning the sand might help, but if you further stress your tang it might get worse if it is ich and you will have to catch it and treat it. So best to not stress it too much and watch for a few days.

For anything and everything you put in the tank should be quarantined. Coral as well as shrimp. Marine velvet and ich can have cyst attached to frags or a shrimp and then be transfered in your aquarium.

I always quarantine my corals and animals for 6 weeks before I put them in my main tank. Without a host fish those 2 parasites will perish as they cannot go dormant at a normal temperature and will eventualy hatch and starve to death.

This is the only way to make sure your tank is 100% free of parasites.


The good news is that if it is ich in your tank and the fish fight it off, then after about 10 generation the ich strain will exhaust itself and die off. That is if no new strain of ich is intruduced. At least that's what I read a few times. Not sure if it is true but juging how often we see people having ich and then never again, it is possibly true.



while another store told me not to clean the tank for fear of stiring up the reproducting ich, and just allow them to stay dorment and not attach to any fish so they can die off.

Should I be Cleaning the tanks? should I be doing large frequent water changes? should I look at trying a Miracle cure? any suggestions would be appreciated?

[JenniferL]

Personally I would leave things alone. Your tank has ich in it now, just make sure everyone continues to eat well and try not to stress the fish out more by fiddling with the tank every day, unless necessary. Try soaking the food in garlic and if you have a cleaner shrimp/wrasse they can add some relief to the fish by cleaning some of the parasites off although they are not a cure.

[Trabby]

At the end of September after a regular tank clean , I forgot to plug the heater back in. That was a Friday, I did not realize this until the Sunday morning when I turned lights on to see two fish completely covered in ich :(
without a qt tank handy I immediately bought some garlic. I soaked the food and fed 2-3 times a day. The good news was that both fish were eating.... After aproximately 2 weeks all signs of the major infestation were gone and I have not had a recurrance. Good luck..

[Aquattro]

Agree on the garlic. Without trying to start that whole debate again, my hippo got a ich a couple of weeks ago, I fed her with nori soaked in fresh squeezed garlic, ich was gone in three days. It's my treatment of choice.

[pyke]

We have been soaking all the food in Garlic and selcon. The biggest concern we had was not cleaning the tank was the increase in algae. We have a bare bottom tank so siphoning the bottom of the rock debris and wiping the glass down and doing a 10% change every week is our normal routine. Should I pick up the frequency of the changes?

[pyke]

We also have Two Cleaner Wrasse and two fire shrimp for cleaning the fish. The funny part is the fish that had the show of ich is the only fish that doesnt go to our cleaning station where the shrip and cleaner wrasse are. All the other fish let the shrimp and wrasse pick at them.

the Hippo is not scratching or twitching and is eating like a pig still.

[bvlester]

We have been soaking all the food in Garlic and selcon. The biggest concern we had was not cleaning the tank was the increase in algae. We have a bare bottom tank so siphoning the bottom of the rock debris and wiping the glass down and doing a 10% change every week is our normal routine. Should I pick up the frequency of the changes?

+1 on the soak in garlic and selcon, the amino acids help boost the amun system and give the fish extra strength to help fight the Ick attack off.

Good luck,
Bill

[Zoaelite]

Ready for a shocker? I never quarantine new fish purchases and have never had any serious problems with disease (Tanks been running for over a year now). Perhaps it's just luck *Knock on wood* but the 3 things I do to keep my fish healthy and happy include:

-Feeding an extremely varied diet soaked in a garlic supplement.
-Regular water changes and nitrate sinks to reduce water containment.
-I also employ a pair of cleaner shrimp and fire shrimp that have set up cleaning stations on either side of the tank.

Seems you are doing everything just fine, I would keep your cleaning routine the exact same and you should see the spots disappear nice and fast.

[Hawkaholic]

If your tang is eating like a champ and not scratching or rubbing then I would just leave it alone. Chances are the tang is being picked on after lights out or is a bit stressed about something. I have a PB Tang that got ich all the time. I tried pretty much everything to cure it but the few spots never went away. It turned out that after lights out my sailfin tang attacked the PB. I got rid of the sailfin and the PB has never looked better.

Another possibility may be your cleaner wrasses. If your cleaner wrasses eat prepared food chances are they are not "true" cleaner wrasses. The false cleaners have been known to bite chunks out of fish.

Now for the ich in the tank business. Some may disagree...well...probably most will but this is my opinion. It won't mean much cause I'm not as cool as the other canreefers hehe. The ich parasite is always present in a tank...I don't care who you are...its there. No amount of water changes or lowering salinity or temp. will get rid of it. It doesn't matter what a reefer does, the parasite will always be there. It may die off but it will always come back.

Placing the fish in quarantine will cause stress. Cleaning the tank and/or rocks will cause stress. Your best bet right now is to just leave it alone and keep an eye on it. Good luck

[Aquattro]

Now for the ich in the tank business. Some may disagree...well...probably most will but this is my opinion. It won't mean much cause I'm not as cool as the other canreefers hehe. The ich parasite is always present in a tank...I don't care who you are...its there. No amount of water changes or lowering salinity or temp. will get rid of it. It doesn't matter what a reefer does, the parasite will always be there. It may die off but it will always come back.

Placing the fish in quarantine will cause stress. Cleaning the tank and/or rocks will cause stress. Your best bet right now is to just leave it alone and keep an eye on it. Good luck

This gets my vote for cool!! :)

[abcha0s]

Now for the ich in the tank business. Some may disagree...well...probably most will but this is my opinion. It won't mean much cause I'm not as cool as the other canreefers hehe. The ich parasite is always present in a tank...I don't care who you are...its there. No amount of water changes or lowering salinity or temp. will get rid of it. It doesn't matter what a reefer does, the parasite will always be there. It may die off but it will always come back.

That get's my vote for rediculous? - If I don't say it, someone else will.

Fair enough that 'many' people think this way. I know all of the arguements and you are certainally entitled to your opinion, but this way of thinking is so old school.

I'm cycling a new tank. I started with dry eco rock and live sand from a bag that's been on a shelf for some months. There's no way there's ich in this tank. Impossible. If I add coral but no fish and wait 30 days, then even if the ich came in on the coral, without a host fish it is now dead.

As soon as I add fish, there is a risk of adding ich, but it is only a risk. If I add one fish that has never been exposed to ich, then there is no ich in my tank. Period.

This way of thinking would only be possible if you believed that every fish always has ich and that even with copper treatment you could never get rid of it. I don't believe this.

Anyway - just having fun with the biggest myth of them all. I have Ich in my 90G tank and I sure wish I knew any easy way to get rid of it.

- Brad

[marie]

......

Now for the ich in the tank business. Some may disagree...well...probably most will but this is my opinion. It won't mean much cause I'm not as cool as the other canreefers hehe. The ich parasite is always present in a tank...I don't care who you are...its there. No amount of water changes or lowering salinity or temp. will get rid of it. It doesn't matter what a reefer does, the parasite will always be there. It may die off but it will always come back.

........


Not trying to start an argument but I have to speak up. It is possible to have a tank with no ich, I have one and I have THE ich magnet of all ich magnets, an achilles tang. He's been in my tank for 4 1/2 yrs and has not had ich since the day he arrived here (he was quarantined and treated with cupramine)

[Zoaelite]

Not trying to start an argument but I have to speak up. It is possible to have a tank with no ich, I have one and I have THE ich magnet of all ich magnets, an achilles tang. He's been in my tank for 4 1/2 yrs and has not had ich since the day he arrived here (he was quarantined and treated with cupramine)

I'm sure it's certainly possible but if your keeping your fish healthy and happy (And Doofus does look healthy and happy :razz:) whats the point? A healthy fish in a stress free environment can fight of most parasitic infections on their own.

I'm cycling a new tank. I started with dry eco rock and live sand from a bag that's been on a shelf for some months. There's no way there's ich in this tank. Impossible. If I add coral but no fish and wait 30 days, then even if the ich came in on the coral, without a host fish it is now dead.


Now that gets my vote for ridiculous, your trying to replicate a natural environment by starting your bacterial culture with the biggest myth out there... Bagged live sand. Your fish will end up getting Ich because of stress associated with high nitrates unless you wait months for a cycle to occur (and yes... Ich is everywhere, your little "Paradise" is not immune).

Natural live rock is expensive because its just that NATURAL, seeded with a cornucopia of bacteria and microfauna that is essential to starting a reef tank. You will have to add it at some time if you want to add coral and if the fish are already in there the parasite is in there also.

You seem to be focusing on having an Ich free tank over a healthy established tank, a major error IMO.

[marie]

I'm sure it's certainly possible but if your keeping your fish healthy and happy (And Doofus does look healthy and happy :razz:) whats the point? A healthy fish in a stress free environment can fight of most parasitic infections on their own.

......
Your right....to a point. I don't think ich is particularly deadly and I think a lot of fish that supposedly die from Ich actually die from Marine Velvet, Ich just happens to be the more visible (they can have both at the same time, marine velvet is very stressful) and so it gets blamed.

Doofus arrived here with Marine Velvet and ich and without being quarantined, not only would of died but would of taken the other fish with him, including my regal angel. I am a firm believer in quarantine....but an ich free tank is just a side benefit :mrgreen:

[abcha0s]

Now that gets my vote for ridiculous, your trying to replicate a natural environment by starting your bacterial culture with the biggest myth out there... Bagged live sand. Your fish will end up getting Ich because of stress associated with high nitrates unless you wait months for a cycle to occur (and yes... Ich is everywhere, your little "Paradise" is not immune).

Natural live rock is expensive because its just that NATURAL, seeded with a cornucopia of bacteria and microfauna that is essential to starting a reef tank. You will have to add it at some time if you want to add coral and if the fish are already in there the parasite is in there also.

You seem to be focusing on having an Ich free tank over a healthy established tank, a major error IMO.

So, that wasn’t really my point. By my own logic, there's no risk of introducing ich with live sand or rock if you wait out the life cycle before adding fish.

I am using “live” sand because of the grain size and colour, not because I am expecting any miracles. I agree with you that there is little or no beneficial life in bagged live sand other than some bacteria.

I am using dry rock to avoid the pests that can come in with live rock, but it was a carefully considered decision. I will be seeding the rock and sand with various detritivores and real “live” sand from Inland Aquatics. If I can find some good quality live rock from a trusted source, I’ll add that too. It will take longer for the tank to mature, but I control what goes in.

For what it’s worth, I’m not afraid of introducing ich to my new tank. I agree that healthy fish can easily fight it off. I have ich in my 90G and I have never lost a fish. I would have thought it was gone except that every so often I’ll see a spec. It’s the aptasia and bubble algea that I’m trying to avoid.

The point is, there is no ich in my tank now. It is possible to have an ich free tank. My 90G was completely ich free for the first 2 years and I had lots of fish. It’s only when I added a tang that I started to see it.

Anyway, I’d love to see the research that says “Ich is everywhere”. I’ve never come across a credible source that supports that argument.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyophthirius_multifiliis

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

Hey - it's good for a debate right? - I've heard many people say that 'ich is everywhere', but I just can't accept that as being true.

[daniella3d]

Unfortunatly these tree things would not work against marine velvet. lets just hope you don't have to deal with that. More than one person here on this forum were doing the same thing for years without problem, until one day.... then you read threads here mentioning 30 dead fishes.

This is silly and does not have to be just because someone is careless and think that these things will never happen to them. It's not being responsible, it's playing russian roulette with your livestock.


Ready for a shocker? I never quarantine new fish purchases and have never had any serious problems with disease (Tanks been running for over a year now). Perhaps it's just luck *Knock on wood* but the 3 things I do to keep my fish healthy and happy include:

-Feeding an extremely varied diet soaked in a garlic supplement.
-Regular water changes and nitrate sinks to reduce water containment.
-I also employ a pair of cleaner shrimp and fire shrimp that have set up cleaning stations on either side of the tank.

Seems you are doing everything just fine, I would keep your cleaning routine the exact same and you should see the spots disappear nice and fast.

[Frenchie2]

My blue tang used to get ich from time to time. I feed my fish a variety of foods - frozen, pellets, noori, etc. I serve frozen foods with a few drops of Garlic Xtreme and Selcon every other day. For pellets, I give them "Biofish Food" from Dr. Bassleer's - those pellets work so good. I give them pellet food every other day too. Those pellets contain a tiny bit of cooper but will not endanger your invertebres. I have 4 shrimps ( & a whole lot of corals) and they eat it all no problem and are healthy. Since I've added the pellets to their diet, I've never seen any ich on any of the fish at all for the last year. I do 20% water change everyweek, religiously.
If you can't find those pellets at your LFS, J&L sells them. Good luck!

[daniella3d]

In deed, completely ridiculous. I don,t have ich in my tank because I do a strict quarantine. This is a stupid myth.

Though for the ich to be completely gone it must be fishless for 6 weeks. Some ich cyst have been found to resist for 71 days, but that's rare. Still...you cannot be sure if you only quarantine your coral for 30 days that you will be 100% ich free.

If you add fish without quarantine with hyposalinity then there is a very good risk that you have ich in your tank. Often it is on the fish gill and it is not apparent and the fish fight it off. It does not mean that a fish that carry ich will show any sign of it, so treating with hyposalinity when ever possible is a good practice.

Avoiding ich is very hard since a fish can seem healthy and still carry it. A very strict quarantine on everything is required.


That get's my vote for rediculous? - If I don't say it, someone else will.


As soon as I add fish, there is a risk of adding ich, but it is only a risk. If I add one fish that has never been exposed to ich, then there is no ich in my tank. Period.

[daniella3d]

copper is poison. I would be much more worried about the fish liver instead of the invertabrates.

Those pellets contain a tiny bit of cooper but will not endanger your invertebres.

[Aquattro]

Well, I still think there's ich in every tank....healthy fish are not affected, so it doesn't matter to me. Each person needs to decide how to manage risks and act accordingly

[globaldesigns]

Well, I still think there's ich in every tank....healthy fish are not affected, so it doesn't matter to me. Each person needs to decide how to manage risks and act accordingly

+1, I too am of the opinion that ICH IS ICH, and all tanks have it. Healthy fish are able to repel the parasite as they have good slime coats. Unhealthy fish, tend to lack enough slime coat or lose it and this allows the parasite to penetrate them.

I have had ich, I have tangs and they are all fine. It probably has been 2 years since I had any ICH episodes. So I believe a healthy environment promotes healthy fish.

So in saying the above, I don't believe in quarantining or treating fish for sickness (except for healthy foods and garlic). Catching a sick fish, just stresses them out more. If you buy a new fish, they are already stressed from capture and transport. Why quarantine them, to just stress them out again when you have to re-capture and move them over. So with new or old habitants, just let them be.... If they are healthy enough, they will make it through.

Just my opinion, don't beat me up too bad!

[marie]

Why is everyone so obsessed with Ich, there are worse things to worry about then ich. If you are in a position to check a fish out closely before buying then thankfully there is a 99% chance you will never come across those worse things.

I am not in that position, everything I get is mailorder and after once losing half my fish to marine velvet I am not willing to chance going through it again (even if I could check a fish out before buying)

I have also found quarantining a fish easier on the fish then being dumped straight off into the display tank. Fish take less time to get used to eating prepared foods and are quicker to get used to my presence..... just my experience anyway and I have a regal angel, an achilles tang, 2 potters angels and a copperband butterfly :mrgreen:

[daniella3d]

me, I am not upset with ich, I just don't want my fish to live with fleas if I can do something about it :) Make no mistake though..ich kill fish on regular basis. I read very often fish dying from ich.

how long do you have your copperband and what do you feed it?

a copperband butterfly :mrgreen:

[daniella3d]

why? ever heard of marine velvet?

I just got a copperband butterfly and putting it in quarantine was the best thing to do because the fish ended up needing a huge amount of food to fatten up (was very skinny) and also ended up needing a prazipro treatment for flukes.

The quarantine is the perfect time and place to acclimate a fish properly. It is quiet, nobody bother it and it can be trained to eat certain type of food without other fish jumping all in. Dumping a new fish into a main tank with lots of other fish where there can be aggression is much more stressfull to the fish. Even though no other fish attack it my copperband was much more stressed going into my main tank with other fish moving around than when it was alone and quiet in its quarantine tank. There it could take all its time to eat.




Why quarantine them, to just stress them out again when you have to re-capture and move them over. So with new or old habitants, just let them be.... If they are healthy enough, they will make it through.

Just my opinion, don't beat me up too bad!

[marie]

me, I am not upset with ich, I just don't want my fish to live with fleas if I can do something about it :) Make no mistake though..ich kill fish on regular basis. I read very often fish dying from ich.

how long do you have your copperband and what do you feed it?


I've had the copperband 3 yrs and it eats anything meaty, mysis and chopped up fish, squid, mussels, clams, prawns.....whatever seafood I can get my hands on

[Hawkaholic]

oops :redface:

[Aquattro]

oops :redface:

lol :)

[Lance]

I have also found quarantining a fish easier on the fish then being dumped straight off into the display tank. Fish take less time to get used to eating prepared foods and are quicker to get used to my presence..... just my experience anyway and I have a regal angel, an achilles tang, 2 potters angels and a copperband butterfly :mrgreen:


I absolutely agree Marie, as long as the QT tank is not ridiculously small; has appropriate water conditions; and several hiding places. Getting the new fish to unwind from its travels, and eating well is IMO a very important part of quarantining.