Show Us Your LED Tanks

[Madreefer]

I had a discussion with a buddy yesterday about LED lights. He figures that they are the best thing going and bring out the colors more. I'm not sold on them. Those of you that have an LED fixture on your tank (tanks 100G and up) can you please post a FTS for those of us that are curious. The monthly cost savings over MH is huge I know. It's the look i'm interested in seeing.

[sphelps]

The savings are not huge, you may save money in the long run but your payback period will be a few years or more depending on how you look at it. Typically you can use about half the power with LEDs and on a 100 gallon tank you'd probably save around 250W which if run 10 hours a day will save you around $60 a year depending on what you pay for electricity. Your basic LED retro kit will cost around $1200 for 100 gallons and your basic halide retro kit will cost around $600 (ballast, reflector, sockets and cords). Based on replacing bulbs every year and the additional electrical cost you'd be about even after about 3.5 years. So provided you plan on keeping your tank for more than 4 years it may be worth while from a savings point of view.

As for color, I don't think you get better results from LEDs but this tends more to be personal preference. I find that MH's have the potential for a more broad spectrum which gives a better balance for various coral colors. T5s are also really good for coral color for similar reasons and that you can mix and match various bulbs to meet your preference. I find that with only using white and blue LEDs the colors in many corals are not spectacular by any means, you could add other color LEDs for better results but preforming this experimentation isn't as easy as changing a T5 or MH bulbs.

Also pictures can be misleading, I can take a picture of any coral under any light and make it look way better than in person. Cameras can adjust color and light balance much better than our eyes.

[Aquattro]

I agree, savings are not huge. I pay about 25/mo to run my MH, so cut that in half for LED, and it's not a tremendous saving. And since I'm not great with building little things, I'd need to buy a fixture, and at over 4k, it would take me years to break even. And given that I still believe MH will give me the best results, I can't justify going to LED until prices drop way down and they've really proven themselves. The main attraction for me would be the heat factor, but for light quality, I'm likely always going to be a hard core MH fan.

[sphelps]

Yeah the major attractions for LEDs for me is heat and control. Heat not so much because I've never had a real issue using 500W of halide on a 100 gallon tank, a small fan and open top keeps the heat down even on hot summer days without AC. The control factor though is pretty cool but it does add cost depending on what you want to do and whether you already have the controller.

The other problem stopping me is that I've never had the same tank for longer than 3 or 4 years so I don't know if the extra cost would be worth while just for some extra control features.

[mseepman]

I think LED is the way to go if you plan to keep your tank a while. The current pre-built fixtures out there can leave a bit to be desired, although in Canada we tend to look at only a couple of the fixtures and then make our decisions. It seems that the reef conferences of late have been filled with companies bringing LED technology to reefing but when we discuss LED on Canreef, a lot of the discussion is around the Vertex which is crazy money.
I plan on building a DIY fixture which I will attach to a controller for on/off and dimming. I am in the planning stages of my 290G and previously was going to go with MH / T5 combo (again DIY though, not a fixture) and my plans were going to cost me about $900. Now that I've gone with LED instead (purchased half the items already) the cost to light my 7' tank is going to be closer to $2000 but I'll pay that back in 2 years in bulb costs and electricity alone (not factoring in a chiller if it had been needed). If I build it right, I think there is a good chance that I can try to achieve the 10 years of life that these should give you. There is more elbow grease involved but I'm okay with that.
As for coloring, many of the most recent DIY LED fixtures have found that by mixing in some neutral whites and some normal blues, the colors that we really want can be achieved.

[sphelps]

You're going to save $1100 in two years with bulbs and electrical savings? Wow, what were your original plans exactly? If you don't mind me asking.

[gobytron]

right now, MH is the way to go.

LED is an emerging technology who's applications keep growing.

what costs you 4k today will be 1k in 4 years and probably be a more refined product to boot.

I was really close to buying a Vertex...bought into V.RLM and made some good dough but after having a good look at it, I decided to wait it out and see what the next 2 or 3 versions look like.


Anyone else remember when even a basic t5HO would cost you twice what it does now?

[sphelps]

I don't recall a time T5HOs where much more than they are now, I remember some fixtures costing more than others but it's still that way. The difference I find is that back then fixtures and bulbs were hard to get in Canada and you had to order them from the states which cost a lot with shipping and duty. Maybe I'm not going back as far as some others remember.

I don't really buy into the fact LEDs will come down as much as people seem to think. Prices will drop a little as more competition comes in and more products become available but I don't expect to see a 4K fixture sell for 1K in a few years unless it's discontinued, refurbished or used. You can buy cheap LED fixtures now but they don't have controllers or quality LEDs. Solaris fixtures were pricey when they came out and that was quite a long time ago yet today's fixtures are still in the same range if not more, they are however better fixtures but that's the same with any market (this years cars are better than last years but new price is still the same). So how long before LEDs are cheap? We're not getting any younger :lol:

[gobytron]

I don't recall a time T5HOs where much more than they are now, I remember some fixtures costing more than others but it's still that way. The difference I find is that back then fixtures and bulbs were hard to get in Canada and you had to order them from the states which cost a lot with shipping and duty. Maybe I'm not going back as far as some others remember.

I don't really buy into the fact LEDs will come down as much as people seem to think. Prices will drop a little as more competition comes in and more products become available but I don't expect to see a 4K fixture sell for 1K in a few years unless it's discontinued, refurbished or used. You can buy cheap LED fixtures now but they don't have controllers or quality LEDs. Solaris fixtures were pricey when they came out and that was quite a long time ago yet today's fixtures are still in the same range if not more, they are however better fixtures but that's the same with any market (this years cars are better than last years but new price is still the same). So how long before LEDs are cheap? We're not getting any younger :lol:

Cant agree with you there.
LED business is EXPLODING, there are tonnes of new developments in the technology and manufacturing process and more and more companies joining the fray either directly or through joint ventures...this is called an emerging market and the automobile market is an established and stagnant market with no new players joining the fray for some time....electronic vehicles however fit perfectly into the emerging market category with the first all electric Chevy volt having a stocker of arund 45,000$ (and the first one sold at auction for over 200,000$) with Chevy already anticipating a better version (longer travel per charge) and a lower sticker price in the next model year...

This is just the laws of supply and demand at work here, as more competiton enters the supply side, competition leads to lower prices unless there is as much of a significant increase in demand..which given the hobby, seems unlikely.

Look at how much an old aqualight Advance would have cost you 7 or 8 years ago...over 2K for a 48" one and all they had was MH...no led or supplements.

now you can buy a comparable unit for less than half of that price that comes with LEDs and supplements and offer a better design to boot.

There are already these "cheap" designs you metioned...these will only get more advanced as time goes by...I would be shicked if n the next 3 years, we didnt have a "cheap" model that rivalled everything the current Vertex can do and then some.

This process has already been slowed down due to some patent issues (pfo solaris anyone) in the states but that too wll pass and lead to a eve bigger wave of manufacturers getting involved.

[lastlight]

I think something that will effect what you're talking about is how the types of lighting are attained. With mh and T5 you have a few bulbs in a setup. The bulbs aren't going to get much cheaper. LED units contain hundreds of these repeating parts and their cost I would assume will drop quite a bit from where they are now. With there being so many of them in a unit their unit price doesn't need to go down that much for the overall price to be affected a lot.

[Samw]

This thread has gone off topic already. :) Replies (mine included) without photos are outnumbering replies with photos 10-0. :)
Full Tank Shots please.... :lol: Just a friendly comment. I guess since this is not in the pictures forum, it is fair game for discussion.

can you please post a FTS for those of us that are curious...It's the look i'm interested in seeing.Subject:Show Us Your LED Tanks

[lastlight]

I think there's so few shots like the ones requested that we're sorta filling that void while we wait =)

[StirCrazy]

I have to disagree with a lot of the posts, there is a tremendous savings potential we'll use brads tank as a example.

3x 400 watt MH set up comparing apples to apples your looking at 300-400 each for the first set up with bulbs so 900-1200 bucks.

initial set up for LED 4000 for a store bought, say 1200 for a DIY (which Brad could do if I still lived close :mrgreen:)

cost of a chiller for brads tank is say 400. (most likely more) and power for MH is going to be about 550 watts each for a total of 1675 watts.

power for LEDs is going to be about 300 watts for that tank.

so power cost wise using brads example of 25 bucks a month to run the MH, 5 bucks a month to run the LEDs but we'll say 8 bucks.

now at 50,000 hours the LEDs will have to be changed after 11 years running 12 hours a day

so thats 10 bulb changes for the MH at 300 bucks a change for diecent bulbs.

Oh we forgot the T5's/VHO, ect for suplemental lighting with the MH so another 70 bucks a year.

so lets add it all up over an 11 year period.

MH
3300 in electricity. (not including the suplamantal lighting)
3700 in bulb changes
900 for initial setup very cheep side or 1200 normal
400 for the chiller (cheep side) and say 2000.00 in power to run it for 11 years. most likely it will not last that long but we'll assume you don't need to buy another one.

this comes to a total of 10300 over 11 years.. kinda depressing when you think about it now :mrgreen:

LED
bought option
4000 for fixture
1056 to run it
0 for bulb changes
0 for chiller as I know the only reason I needed one was because of my MH light in victoria

so 5056 bucks for 11 years.
if he did a DIY set up and even spent 2000 on it then he would be just over 3K for 11 years.


now both of these are assuming there are no premature bulb failures which I had in about 1/5th of the MH I bought and I would suspect that there would be a smaller number of failures with LEDs.

lets talk about the pros and cons of each asside from setup and operating costs.

Color.

MH you are stuck with 1 color untill you change out bulbs. the LED set up you have an infinate range of color blending between royal blue and cool white (6500K to about 30K) with the LED if you don't like the color one day you can switch it at whim by changing the dimming levels of one color or the other.

New corals

MH you have to place New frags low in the tank and or come up with a screening method to reduce the amount of light till they are used to it.

LED you can placve your corals in there spot and drop your intensity and slowly bring it back up over any time period you want with out screening or moving the light

Heat. MH are a radiant heat source, LEDs are not. need I say more on this.. could mean the difference of using a chiller or not.

controlability.

MH do not dim.

Leds can be turned on at 1% of there power and raised in 1% incraments over any time perior you select. you can also do this with the blue then with the white and reverse at the end.
If you want you can also rig your white LEDs to simulate lightning and other visual effects like clouds and such depending how there set up.

finaly light spillage. MH ratiate 360 degrees so you need good reflectors to gain the advantage of all the light and even then your not getting it all.

Leds are also a point source light but they are directional and with optice you can direct your light only where needed not using reflectors with no light spillage which requires larger canopys and housings.

Steve

[Slick Fork]

I retrofitted some reefbrite LED strips into a 4 bulb Tek fixture

Here's the thread
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=67874

My biggest reason to do this was I hate the flat look that flourescent lights only give a tank and this tank is small enough I was worried about heat from a MH.

[TheDogFather]

This thread is worthless without pictures.... :wink:


Taken moments ago:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/Aquarium-Fans/P1020937.jpg

One more white balanced:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/Aquarium-Fans/P1020940.jpg


Some frags:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/Aquarium-Fans/BlueAcro.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/Aquarium-Fans/P1020941.jpg

48" Vertex Illumina SR 1200-200 Philips Rebel LED's

[Milad]

wow on the picture

im all about LEDs. If you havent seen one light up in person, you are missing out. I literally fell out of my chair seeing just one CREE XP-G light up.

[Aquattro]

so power cost wise using brads example of 250 bucks a month to run the MH, 5 bucks a month to run the LEDs but we'll say 8 bucks.

Steve

Steve, Im gonna need to see your math on this one.

[mseepman]

You're going to save $1100 in two years with bulbs and electrical savings? Wow, what were your original plans exactly? If you don't mind me asking.

The tank I have is 7' long by 32" wide...My original plans were for 3 x 250w DE MH, 8 x 39w T5's. I was planning on running Giesemann MH bulbs and ATI / KZ T5HO mixture. Since I live in the Okanagan, everything is expensive as I either buy it local at an outrageous price or pay to ship it in...bulbs usually being one of the things that don't qualify for free shipping.

$104 x 3 MH =$312 (J&L pricing)
$30 x 8 T5HO = $240 (J&L)


$550/year and I don't think you get a full year out of T5's so I was looking at $1100 over two years with no electrical savings calculated in yet.

[StirCrazy]

Steve, Im gonna need to see your math on this one.

not math.. called an extra key stroke. I'll fix it haha

[amoreira]

Wow! Nice pics with the Illumina 200. That looks like a PAR monster. I hear the 260 is even stronger.

I like my MH, but they sure give off a lot of heat. In the summer that can be problematic and expensive with a chiller. I use fans. They're effective if directed to blow over the surface of the DT. They're noisy and a bit of an eyesore.

I've decided to dump the MH to cut down on electricity and for the features that LED's offer (dimmable!). I'm waiting for an Aquaillumination SOL Blue unit. With this one I can simulate sunrise/sunset and storms. Every dinner time, I'll have the tank experiencing an electrical storm (the DT is right beside the dinner table). I can tie it into my Neptune Apex controller and have some fancy timers set up for such things.

[Aquattro]

I'm waiting for an Aquaillumination SOL Blue unit.

I looked at one of these the other night, and wasn't impressed. The spacing on the bulbs causes a flicker between the blue and white lights in the shimmer you get through the water. Also, the indivudual pods of lights were too far apart, causing different areas of brightness, even over individual corals near the surface.
I also looked at a DIY light and was much more impressed.

[Madreefer]

Good discussion and off topic is good too, keep up the "debate". I too am for MH and I have seen a tank with the Vertex LED and was not impressed. The pics that Dogfather put up look great! Lets see some more from others please.

[lastlight]

Depending on where your tank is you might actually WANT the heat from a mh setup. My basement is always very cold and I'm sure those terribly dated bulbs are going to help heat my tank. I don't think I'll even come close to needing a chiller but we'll see.

[OceanAquatics]

http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq29/oceanaquatics_photos/photo-22.jpg

Up since the summer, corals are ok, i'd like to see more blue but Ecoxotic are apparently in the stages of getting something controllable out.


Ocean Aquatics

[Kevotron]

I have a 8 bulb t5 and in the process of upgrading to LED...
thought about going with MH, but a 6 foot 3 x 250W MH fixture is already ~$1500, add in ballast ~$400, 3 MH bulbs say $120 each and 4 x T5 bulbs @ $22 each
that is already ~$2500 for the whole set up.
every year to year and half another $400 for bulb changes + electricity cost
within 2-3 yrs it already pays for a $4000 LED fixture.

[Milad]

And since I'm not great with building little things, I'd need to buy a fixture,

Thats not a good excuse aquattro! Building a LED fixture is dead simple and people on here will walk you through it.

Actually better yet. If anyone in Vancouver area feels that they cant build their own fixture, ill build it for you, no cost to you, just buy the parts + iron. Ill even do some 3d designing for you.

*** actually i better say first couple people just in case i get flooded

[Kevotron]

Thats not a good excuse aquattro! Building a LED fixture is dead simple and people on here will walk you through it.

Actually better yet. If anyone in Vancouver area feels that they cant build their own fixture, ill build it for you, no cost to you, just buy the parts + iron. Ill even do some 3d designing for you.

*** actually i better say first couple people just in case i get flooded

*sigh* too bad im from Alberta :P

[KevinK]

Thats not a good excuse aquattro! Building a LED fixture is dead simple and people on here will walk you through it.

Actually better yet. If anyone in Vancouver area feels that they cant build their own fixture, ill build it for you, no cost to you, just buy the parts + iron. Ill even do some 3d designing for you.

*** actually i better say first couple people just in case i get flooded

I will hold a frag swap in the last week of feb., maybe a plan to show some DIY lights, I have one running at the time, and have my LED order from milad, and hope to have them ready to run as well at that time, maybe there are othersthat want to show some LED DIY builds as well at that time (in case thy are not above a tank yet.

so far the corals under the LED are going great, and thy arnt even CREE, and are a mix of 50 white and 50 blue, not the 2 part blue and one part white.

I wil put a picture up of it

[KevinK]

se picture

[Aquattro]

Thats not a good excuse aquattro! Building a LED fixture is dead simple and people on here will walk you through it.

*** actually i better say first couple people just in case i get flooded

No, you don't understand. My really complex electrical project right now is connecting my fans to the adapter :) Me and wires, well, not so good. And the intricate detail work, not really me either.

So I'll put my name up tho for a rain check on the building, just in case I ever change my mind -lol

[bongy]

Here are some LED tanks from some of my clients.

Disclaimer: I am also the manufacturer and designer of the InWatter LED. Not really trying to promote our products as we don't sell to Canada yet but want to point out that LED tanks (any brand) can look great if done correctly. (ie using good quality chips to start with)

[ProReef]

No, you don't understand. My really complex electrical project right now is connecting my fans to the adapter :) Me and wires, well, not so good. And the intricate detail work, not really me either.

So I'll put my name up tho for a rain check on the building, just in case I ever change my mind -lol

Hey Brad...we both know some one with a slight nerd wiring skill-maybe he could help!!! Cheers Ronnie

[Aquattro]

I have to admit, the light looks good from these, and some of the control features are, well, cutesy. Nothing like a good lightning storm over a reef, not that I would use that feature.
I've read a few threads where people reported good or great results with SPS tanks, but only for a limited time. I guess when some RC TOTM with neon colors gets posted, and a subsequent follow up 2 or 3 years later shows consistent results, I would consider it. Assuming I could do it cheaper than today, and/or someone was going to build it for me.

[Aquattro]

Hey Brad...we both know some one with a slight nerd wiring skill-maybe he could help!!! Cheers Ronnie

Pretty sure he's booked up for the next little while on these projects :)

I was over there the other night, and his setup is certainly nice, and the color is awesome, but again, no long term history to consider yet.
I know what my 400w radiums can do in a year, I haven't seen the LED results yet, or not enough anyway.

[lastlight]

Read my mind Brad. Yeah they do look nice but I always adopt what's got a solid track record already. I don't have the budget to experiment or take many chances.

[freezetyle]

I looked at one of these the other night, and wasn't impressed. The spacing on the bulbs causes a flicker between the blue and white lights in the shimmer you get through the water. Also, the indivudual pods of lights were too far apart, causing different areas of brightness, even over individual corals near the surface.
I also looked at a DIY light and was much more impressed.

Brad, does some one here on the island have one? I wanted to take a look at one in person for some comparisons.

[Aquattro]

Brad, does some one here on the island have one? I wanted to take a look at one in person for some comparisons.

Ya, Gareth's mother-in-law has one.

[Lego]

I think madreefer was talking about me... ;) all good. Here is how the conversation sparked. I have a 120g 4' x 2' x 2'. I have a ballast that is no good anymore. so I need a ballast.... I also need bulbs as I am due for new bulbs... I would need two... Most likely need a new pendant for my new ballast I have to replace... maybe... maybe not.

But lets pretend for argument I'm a newbie and I have to get new stuff to get my tank running.

$70 for a bulb
$130 for a pendant
$140 for a ballast
_________
$340 for 250w setup on the cheaper end......

4' tank I should be running 2... so I'm $680 now.

Vertex is just releasing in Feburary a new LED setup that is $500 or $580ish can't remember right off the top of my head for the 4' bar. No controller to make a pretty lighting storm as I wouldn't care for that anyways. Also a MH can't do that unless were starting them up for the split second you might get one ;)

I can also add more bars if need be.... 60,000hrs of life 2 year warranty.

I think the cost is coming inline as in start up costs.

Now let pretend cost isn't the concern right now... just the growth of a health aquarium we are all suppose to have ;) I don't like killing corals and it is also killing my pocket book ;)

Who is seeing growth from the LED lights?? how long have you had them? can you show a photo? Just to help us on the fence people. I believe in MH but looking for a longer term light.

[Jackie]

Left: Weipro LED
Middle: KEY Aquarium LED
Right: Marineland Reef LED
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Bdkca4dIJ6A/TTeZ2LFS60I/AAAAAAAAAQk/tXj866zyr7A/s640/DSC_0644.jpg

[Nebthet]

This is no where near 100g but here is my Led lit tank now in CUC added mode.
It uses 3 par38 spotlight leds.
1 27w IceCooLed (Oceanic Corals for purchase) 12k (but looks like 10k to me)
2 21w Nanotuners 12k

http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/nebthet1/20Long/frontwlites01-14-2011.jpg
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo269/nebthet1/20Long/20l01-18-2011.jpg

[StirCrazy]

Thats not a good excuse aquattro! Building a LED fixture is dead simple and people on here will walk you through it.



actualy trust me.. walking him through it isn't a good idea.... at all....

Steve

[StirCrazy]

I've read a few threads where people reported good or great results with SPS tanks, but only for a limited time. I guess when some RC TOTM with neon colors gets posted, and a subsequent follow up 2 or 3 years later shows consistent results, I would consider it. Assuming I could do it cheaper than today, and/or someone was going to build it for me.

actualy I was reading a few threads last night after work on people pushing the 3 year mark with there DIY LED setups and from the pictures they are getting good results. one guy posted pictures every 2 or 3 months and you could see the improvment in each one over his MH lights.

granted most are just hitting the 1 year mark now but there are some hitting two and 3 years of sucess. and concidering how often you ripp your tank down and start over..... :mrgreen: seriously though

LEDs have been used sucessfully in growing plants for over 7 years now, so it is proven that they provide the nessasary requirments for photosynthis... it just took a few more years to develop the power needed to punch through water :wink:

Steve

[sphelps]

Cant agree with you there.
LED business is EXPLODING, there are tonnes of new developments in the technology and manufacturing process and more and more companies joining the fray either directly or through joint ventures...this is called an emerging market and the automobile market is an established and stagnant market with no new players joining the fray for some time....electronic vehicles however fit perfectly into the emerging market category with the first all electric Chevy volt having a stocker of arund 45,000$ (and the first one sold at auction for over 200,000$) with Chevy already anticipating a better version (longer travel per charge) and a lower sticker price in the next model year...

This is just the laws of supply and demand at work here, as more competiton enters the supply side, competition leads to lower prices unless there is as much of a significant increase in demand..which given the hobby, seems unlikely.

Look at how much an old aqualight Advance would have cost you 7 or 8 years ago...over 2K for a 48" one and all they had was MH...no led or supplements.

now you can buy a comparable unit for less than half of that price that comes with LEDs and supplements and offer a better design to boot.

There are already these "cheap" designs you metioned...these will only get more advanced as time goes by...I would be shicked if n the next 3 years, we didnt have a "cheap" model that rivalled everything the current Vertex can do and then some.

This process has already been slowed down due to some patent issues (pfo solaris anyone) in the states but that too wll pass and lead to a eve bigger wave of manufacturers getting involved.
Yes I agree with the theory but that's all it really is, a theory. Solaris fixtures came out in 2007, that was 4 years ago and yet no price drop in LED fixtures yet, some cost more. So in another 3 years you expect to see a 75% reduction in price? Give me a break dude. I'll put money down that LED fixtures will not drop more than 20% in the next three years, if that.

[sphelps]

I have to disagree with a lot of the posts, there is a tremendous savings potential we'll use brads tank as a example.

3x 400 watt MH set up comparing apples to apples your looking at 300-400 each for the first set up with bulbs so 900-1200 bucks.

initial set up for LED 4000 for a store bought, say 1200 for a DIY (which Brad could do if I still lived close :mrgreen:)

cost of a chiller for brads tank is say 400. (most likely more) and power for MH is going to be about 550 watts each for a total of 1675 watts.

power for LEDs is going to be about 300 watts for that tank.

so power cost wise using brads example of 25 bucks a month to run the MH, 5 bucks a month to run the LEDs but we'll say 8 bucks.

now at 50,000 hours the LEDs will have to be changed after 11 years running 12 hours a day

so thats 10 bulb changes for the MH at 300 bucks a change for diecent bulbs.

Oh we forgot the T5's/VHO, ect for suplemental lighting with the MH so another 70 bucks a year.

so lets add it all up over an 11 year period.

MH
3300 in electricity. (not including the suplamantal lighting)
3700 in bulb changes
900 for initial setup very cheep side or 1200 normal
400 for the chiller (cheep side) and say 2000.00 in power to run it for 11 years. most likely it will not last that long but we'll assume you don't need to buy another one.

this comes to a total of 10300 over 11 years.. kinda depressing when you think about it now :mrgreen:

LED
bought option
4000 for fixture
1056 to run it
0 for bulb changes
0 for chiller as I know the only reason I needed one was because of my MH light in victoria

so 5056 bucks for 11 years.
if he did a DIY set up and even spent 2000 on it then he would be just over 3K for 11 years.


now both of these are assuming there are no premature bulb failures which I had in about 1/5th of the MH I bought and I would suspect that there would be a smaller number of failures with LEDs.

lets talk about the pros and cons of each asside from setup and operating costs.

Color.

MH you are stuck with 1 color untill you change out bulbs. the LED set up you have an infinate range of color blending between royal blue and cool white (6500K to about 30K) with the LED if you don't like the color one day you can switch it at whim by changing the dimming levels of one color or the other.

New corals

MH you have to place New frags low in the tank and or come up with a screening method to reduce the amount of light till they are used to it.

LED you can placve your corals in there spot and drop your intensity and slowly bring it back up over any time period you want with out screening or moving the light

Heat. MH are a radiant heat source, LEDs are not. need I say more on this.. could mean the difference of using a chiller or not.

controlability.

MH do not dim.

Leds can be turned on at 1% of there power and raised in 1% incraments over any time perior you select. you can also do this with the blue then with the white and reverse at the end.
If you want you can also rig your white LEDs to simulate lightning and other visual effects like clouds and such depending how there set up.

finaly light spillage. MH ratiate 360 degrees so you need good reflectors to gain the advantage of all the light and even then your not getting it all.

Leds are also a point source light but they are directional and with optice you can direct your light only where needed not using reflectors with no light spillage which requires larger canopys and housings.

Steve
OP was based on 100 gallons, and how do you get enough LEDs, drivers and heat sink to replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental for $1200? That's more than 200 LEDs which will cost over $2000 with basic drivers and a heatsink. Also 300W of LED will not replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental, they aren't that efficient. And supplemental is an option, you could run 14-20K halides and be satisfied, if you added supplemental to 10K halides you would need even more LEDs to compensate.

Of course the bigger you go the more money you'll save and the shorter the payback but put your application on the 100gallon size range as requested.

As for a chiller, it's a moo point, I've always ran halides and never used one.

Lastly if you compare pricing over the lifespan of the LEDs then you must include the cost of replacing all LEDs after 11 years.

There is of course big potentials for saving with LEDs but not so much with the average size tank, you will still save money but it can take a few years before you break even which is simply something to think about and be aware of. If someone is setting up a 90 gallon tank and wants to use LEDs with the intent to save money then they better make sure they will be keeping the tank long enough to make it worth while. As for you guys with 300+ gallon tanks, yes I get it.

[Dez]

I just use cheap China MH bulbs - 3 years worth for just over $100 (9 x 250 watt halides) :biggrin:

[StirCrazy]

oh so many and where do I start.. sphelps, I am not even sure if it is worth it with you as you are a die hard anti-LED person anyways but

as for the original poster and a 100 gal, doesn't matter as for my example I said we would use brads tank.

OP was based on 100 gallons, and how do you get enough LEDs, drivers and heat sink to replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental for $1200? That's more than 200 LEDs which will cost over $2000 with basic drivers and a heatsink. Also 300W of LED will not replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental, they aren't that efficient. And supplemental is an option, you could run 14-20K halides and be satisfied, if you added supplemental to 10K halides you would need even more LEDs to compensate..

sorry I did make a little mistake. its actualy 432 watts of LED so I have to add 13% to the power usage. I changed the current I am going to drive them at. you know what.. lets add another 48 LEDs and setup so i'll take it up to 1600 bucks for you and it will be about 576 watts so now were running at 1/3 the power so the actual 8 bucks a month I used in the example so power costs are actual to my example now as I over estimated the Led usage to start as for efficiency.. the best MH is about 88 lumin/watt LEDs are now getting close to 150 lumin/watt now as for 300- 500 watts of LED replacing 1200 watt of MH.. actualy easy. you don't think you getting any where near the full 1200 watts of light into that tank do you? I would hazord to guess at most your getting a 75% efficiency of light transfer even with a very good reflector. and that is a very generous guess. with LEDs you are getting 100% of the light into the tank. when they start making MH bulbs that only shine on one side then well be revisiting this one :mrgreen:

Of course the bigger you go the more money you'll save and the shorter the payback but put your application on the 100gallon size range as requested .

yes and no.. the money value gets bigger but the % should remain simular

As for a chiller, it's a moo point, I've always ran halides and never used one.

good for you.. so have I and I found the problems were from not having a chiller. where you live in your house you may not need one.. do you have central air, do you have low humidity? if you have high humidity remember the heat transfer due to evaporation is going to suck.

Lastly if you compare pricing over the lifespan of the LEDs then you must include the cost of replacing all LEDs after 11 years.

nope, cuz at the 50,000 hours the LEDs are rated to only lose 15-20% of there output with no color change.. LEDs lose that during the break in so realy you could keep on using the LEDs for a long time after this

There is of course big potentials for saving with LEDs but not so much with the average size tank, you will still save money but it can take a few years before you break even which is simply something to think about and be aware of. If someone is setting up a 90 gallon tank and wants to use LEDs with the intent to save money then they better make sure they will be keeping the tank long enough to make it worth while. As for you guys with 300+ gallon tanks, yes I get it.

I do a comparason for the 30 gal I am building for you after I take the kids to school

Steve

[sphelps]

I'm not anti LED, I run LEDs right now on a nano and I'm considering LEDs on my 100 gallon. I just look at things from both sides rather than forming bias opinions and examples to prove a point. You need 1 LED for every 12 square inches, 3 400W halides can easily light a 9 foot x 3 foot area with the right reflectors and you could keep anything you want under that. You would need 324 LEDs to replace that and that's 900W. So it's all on how you look at it and how you compare, very easy to come up with bias examples to support either side. Here's another one:
Reflector design for reef aquariums has improved considerably allowing for more efficient use of light. With these reflectors we can now light reef aquarium with fewer lamps, get deeper light penetration over larger areas. As an example, I am currently lighting my 500G reef aquarium (84"LX48"WX30"D) with just 3 400W metal halide lamps in Lumenarc reflectors with no supplemental lighting.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/review
That tank will require on the low side 1 LED per 15sqin meaning close to 270 LEDs or 810W

I think it's just hilarious how some people worship LEDs like it's the second coming of Christ, they just simply aren't as good as some people seem to think. Yes they are a good option but certainly not the only one or always the best.

I'm not trying to support or not support LEDs, OP asked about LEDs for a 100 gallon, since I'm considering the same thing and have experience with almost all forms of lighting I simply stated the saving will not be "huge" and it may not be worth while if the tank won't be kept for long term and if the goal is better color for SPS.

Steve, do you even currently run an LED setup on one of your tanks? Has anyone run an LED fixture for 11 years and compared PAR ratings?

[Aquattro]

I think the overall tone of the topic is that nobody is really sure..ok, they look pretty, they can do lightning storms and adjust color a bit. But my primary objective is to grow the blueist and purplist corals I can, long term. I don't believe that LEDs can do that (yet?). Also, the cost over five years, for new lighting setups may be beneficial over five years, but I couldn't afford a LED fixture up front, even if it's going to save me money in the long term. I can however afford 300/yr for bulbs over the next five years without a problem. It's the same principle of my mortgage, I'd save tons if I had that kind of cash :)
I have run 400w radiums for years, and continue to do so. I can find years worth of awesome tanks running the same config, so I know that these do the job I need done. LED, at this point, is still a lot of speculation on what MAY be a good lighting system 4 or 5 years down the road.
No lighting system is the best for every application, so one needs to decide what is best for their application, and for me, the MHs are the system of choice. Maybe it costs me more over 5 years, but so what? This isn't a budget hobby, and for my money, I know what I'm getting in terms of light. It's tried and true. 5 years from now, I may look at LED when it's affordable by the common peasant, but for now, to me anyway, it's a rich man's lighting experiment!!

[Palmer]

This is probably a dumb question but I have three little LED light fixtures (Robot LED IQ3) that I use for a nano and within a month on one of them 3 of the 12 lights just stopped working (3 in a row.) One of my fears of going to LED's for my 120 G someday is that I get an expensive commercial system (Vertex etc) and there is so many more parts to break on it. I hate hassle's and having to deal with manufcturers etc. With my Sunlight Maristar MH T5 combo I know it could break too but it just seems to me it would be alot easier to take care of and less opportunity for something to malfunction (just in sheer number of parts and complexity)....?

[Aquattro]

This is probably a dumb question but I have three little LED light fixtures (Robot LED IQ3) that I use for a nano and within a month on one of them 3 of the 12 lights just stopped working (3 in a row.) One of my fears of going to LED's for my 120 G someday is that I get an expensive commercial system (Vertex etc) and there is so many more parts to break on it. I hate hassle's and having to deal with manufcturers etc. With my Sunlight Maristar MH T5 combo I know it could break too but it just seems to me it would be alot easier to take care of and less opportunity for something to malfunction (just in sheer number of parts and complexity)....?

good point...

[Palmer]

I guess if I applied my logic to cars i should be driving a vintage automobile and I am not. But lately for a lot of tings you have to bring your car to the dealer to get it fixed due to computers and specialized engineering. Will there be a local certified repair specialist for my sophisticated LED fixture?...

[abcha0s]

Some interesting comments for sure. Just for fun, I'll throw in my 2cents.

LED technology is not new and unproven. In fact, it is completely proven by many successful tanks. Fewer here in Canada but there are lot's of success stories on RC and LED lighting is hugely popular in Europe.

With that in mind, there are very few LED solutions that are really ready for mainstream SPS tanks and can fully replace MH lighting. In my opinion, the short list is Vertex Illumina 260, Pacific Sun and ReefTech. All of these solutions will exceed the PAR output of a 250W MH and depending on the configuration will also exceed the PAR output of a 400W MH. All of these solutions are fully controllable with rising sun/Kelvin/Lighting/Etc.

There are of course many niche players in the LED market place, but in my opinion, none of the other solutions are ready for full SPS tanks. There are many reasons for this including light spread, LED density, LED Watts and manufacturer, etc. We can argue this point, but I personally woundn't invest in any solution other than the ones listed above.

Of the three manufactures that I listed, none are first generation solutions. The Vertex product is second generation, the Pacific Sun solution is third generation with the fourth generation set to launch very soon. ReefTech is a new company but the technology is an evolution of Pacific Sun.

LED pricing will come down a little bit, but not enough to justify waiting if you need the lights now. All of the solutions I mentioned are modular and upgradable when new LED chips come out.

Specifically, CREE has released a new XPE High Effeciency White (HEW) chip that I figure will show up in Reef lights soon. It is said to be 50% brighter than the standard XPE chip which should make it equivelent to the XPG chips but at a lower cost.

Also interesting is the trend away from optics. Of the three leading manufactures (Vertex, Pacific Sun, ReefTech), none of these use optics. Pacific Sun and ReefTech have optics as an option, but they basically only recommend them for very deep tanks. I personally agree that if the light intensity is sufficient without optics, they should not be necessary and I would not use them.

I guess we have to mention AI - They use optics, but but I have concerns about the solution in general. I'm not going to say much about this solution other than I just don't think it qualifies for the short list.

The magic number for LED lighting seems to be 160W per 2 foot of tank based on CREE XPG White.

Vertex Illuminata X00 series - 80W per foot
Vertex Illuminata 260 series - Can't find the data - It's at least the same as the X00
Pacific Sun - 160W and 190W modules
ReefTech LED - 180W modules

There will continue to be more and more inovation and the next generation fixtures will likely be even more impressive, but that is true of everything in the consumer market. At some point you have to buy in. The real question is whether the technology has matured enough to justify the investment and in my opinion it has.

[Milad]

abcha0s im not sure if i agree with you on the optics

if you do not use optics, you are restricted to the old way of thinking on mounting a light over your tank. few inches above the water level.

If you use optics, you got alot more options to think out of the box. Mounting it up against the ceiling high above your tank for a unique look.

I think part of the problem with these pre made fixtures is that everyone is following the old school way of doing lighting. LEDs give you so many new options like spot lighting an area in your tank and having shadows in other areas, using different colors all along your tank, etc etc

thanks one of my pep peevs about "kits". you are restricted to what someone says it should be made like.

dont think inside the box!

[Lampshade]

Wow, this turned from a tank shot page to a Why LED page quick :P

My 2 cents. Cost isn't going to be huge saving, like people have said and showed, cost of builds and electricity savings are going to eventually pay off the LEDS. But as also stated, people are assuming the LED's and drivers won't malfunction during that time (technically they shouldn't... but...). Same goes with MH too though, as i'm sure anybody using an old humming ballast knows.

The HUGE benifit in my opinion is the wave length on LED's... it doesn't change. No color shifting after 6 months like MH(even the best bulb will have some shift.) The output is at least 70% after 5 years of 12 hours a day use. Most people are underdriving their DIY systems, so they can increase to get that 70% back later on. Big setups are usually driven to max, but have sufficient cooling so that it won't matter.

People ahave been arguing the PAR rating etc, but PAR is a poor measure of what we need, most meters check all light between 400nm-700nm and give back the average over that amount. What we really need is the used wavelengthss since coral doesn't use an average from 400nm-700nm. PUR is better, but hard to measure. What you CAN see is the output of LED's on a wavelenth compared to what algee needs to grow. This is why i'm going LED's(not cree LED's or a good MH bulb/balast, but you can find wavelengths for both from cree's site and from sanjay's site, just a good general example)
http://aquariumdigest.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/led-mh-4.jpg?w=500

Here's some links on LED's that should relate to this "tank pics":

benfits:
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186982
Tank Pics(nano's but shows):
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=200335
LED build with par readings(my favorite LED tank so far):
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1761942
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18043713&postcount=388 (vid's)

Here's a pic of that tank(Not Mine, one on RC):
http://i45.tinypic.com/ibkvth.jpg

[Skimmerking]

I just use cheap China MH bulbs - 3 years worth for just over $100 (9 x 250 watt halides) :biggrin:
Dez how are they working out for you what are the par readings like and what are the 10K's like are they white or the 14K are they dark looking

[Jackie]

That's why I decided to try them out side by side.
Left: Weipro is the cheapest but not even close to acceptable. Money wasted.
Middle: KEY Aquarium LED, entry level LED. Color is good and soft coral is growing fast. I got a small Birsnest frag and will see how it does. BTA is doing ok too.
Right: Marineland Reef LED. Newly setup, need more time and more frags to test, but color is not as good as the KEY.

Left: Weipro LED
Middle: KEY Aquarium LED
Right: Marineland Reef LED
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Bdkca4dIJ6A/TTeZ2LFS60I/AAAAAAAAAQk/tXj866zyr7A/s640/DSC_0644.jpg

[mseepman]

That's why I decided to try them out side by side.
Left: Weipro is the cheapest but not even close to acceptable. Money wasted.
Middle: KEY Aquarium LED, entry level LED. Color is good and soft coral is growing fast. I got a small Birsnest frag and will see how it does. BTA is doing ok too.
Right: Marineland Reef LED. Newly setup, need more time and more frags to test, but color is not as good as the KEY.

So on the Key LED light, did you order the CREE version or did you go with their standard non-cree version. Which Key LED is that?

[Jackie]

It is the CREE version. 72cm wide version.

So on the Key LED light, did you order the CREE version or did you go with their standard non-cree version. Which Key LED is that?

[kien]

my 150g reef tank lit by one Panorama 36 LED Retrofit

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/IMG_0887-1.jpg

[StirCrazy]

I'm not trying to support or not support LEDs, OP asked about LEDs for a 100 gallon, since I'm considering the same thing and have experience with almost all forms of lighting I simply stated the saving will not be "huge" and it may not be worth while if the tank won't be kept for long term and if the goal is better color for SPS.

Steve, do you even currently run an LED setup on one of your tanks? Has anyone run an LED fixture for 11 years and compared PAR ratings?

the rating for 50,000 hours is right from the cree data sheet, as is the drop off rating for MH's the reason for the drop off in MH is due to the gas and rare metals inside being subjected to the heat inside the bulb. I was looking at the specks for the MH we use int he arena which last longer than the bulbs we use on the tank and they have a 60% dropp off after 20,000 hours and believe me I can tell looking at them as there are a bunch we need to change haha. the rating for the cree is something like 15% after 50,000 hours and because there is no gas or rare earth metals that are being heated and vaporized over and over there is also no color change. also running the new crees at 700mA instead of 1000, or even the rated 1500mA extends the life even longer.

as for running them 11 years I doubt it but I do know street light using high power LEDs have been around for about that so I suspect that the manufactures know what the actual drop off is as it only takes 5 years at 24/7 to get to 50000 hours.

like you I have run the full gambit of lighting, spent over 10K doing it on my 90 gal. wish I didn't but 10 years ago there was no info on lighting.

for the record I am a MH guy, I think T5s are way over rated but good for supplementing color, But I have been playing with Leds for about 5 years maybe more now but for the purpose of moonlighting and supplemental color as the powerful ones were just to expensive until recently.

now for a 30 gal tank (which I am putting together now although it will be a very slow build, as I have to insulate, drywall and heat my shop first) LEDs make way more sense.

this tank will be a SPS high light requirement tank.

the metal halide way I am looking at two fixtures at 250 watt each. I could get away with one, but from experience with my 90 gal and my PAR meter even using a good reflector looses a lot of light at the edges and I find the PAR drop off is significant enough outside of the 20 inch square. to even this out you have to raise the light farther which also drops the overall intensity. so in order to get the levels I want I am looking at two fixtures which will give me about 400 PAR on the tank bottom.

Also I will require a 12" box on top of the tank to enclose the fixture and prevent light spillage. kinda looks funny on a smaller tank

I also like a color in between 10K and 14K so MH bulbs alone don't cut it..

so a decent MH setup from J&L is 312 each x 2 is 622.00
to add 2 DIY T5 bulbs, standoffs, ballast and reflector is 170.00 granted most will be satisfied with 1 MH so for this example we will use 1. so 311.00 plus 170 = 481.00 plus what ever it costs to make you canopy.

if you want to go with a sleek fixture and have a open top like the LED will give me then you are looking at 583 for a 24" fixture with one 250 watt mh and two 24" t5s

for me to do LED for my tank I can get a 48 Ultra Premium LED DIY Kit with Dimmable Drivers for 460 plus 80 for the heat sink, so 540.00 all together. granted I have to build it. and we can add a little more to make it look sweet (like building a hood)

Now this set up with 40 degree optics will also give me PAR levels of 400 on the bottom of my tank.

so the initial purchase on the first MH setup is 60 bucks cheaper and the second MH is more expensive.

power consumption on the MH setup is going to be about 420 watts for a magnetic M80 ballast which I like better because of the higher outputs or about 350 watts for a fancy electronic ballast model plus the T5s so say about 70 watts so 490 or 420.

for the LED set up the power consumption with be about 146.88 watts so a little over 1/3rd of the electronic ballast option.

now the subjective parts. my preferred combo is AB 10K 250 watt SE with uri super actinic VHO the 13K of the ab's plus the URI VHO give a color that is simply unbeatable and the power to match, but the AB bulbs are 180 each. so now my MH set up is going to increase by 100 for a 1MH set up to 200 for a 2 bulb set up but if you like the look of other bulbs that are cheaper then thats a mute point. and I will use 80 buck bulbs as an average for this comparison.

so 11 years changing bulbs once a year for the MH setup is going to be
1430.00 assuming all bulbs last 1 year even the T5s
so now total costs for hardware is

MH 1911.00
LED 540.00

in my case the LEDs save me money before I turn them on, which for a small tank make it more desirable in a small single tank it will take 1 bulb change to make the LEDs cheaper.

lets talk about pros and cons on a small volume tank (say under 50 gal)

PROs

MH
proven track record and the power to grow anything well.
simple to buy and install
wide selections of bulbs

LEDs
proven track record up to 3 years in Canada and US is common, longer in Europe and Asia.
no radiant heat
any color combination you want changeable at whim.
lighting effects from gradual dimming to rock shows able to be made by adding a 70 buck PC controller like and adrunio setup.
directed narrow spread light so light is only where you want it.

CONs

MH
have to change bulb to change color
lots of radiant heat into water
large enclosure/hood required to contain light

LEDs
expensive for a ready made solution, cheaper if you have the skill to build yourself
shorter track record than MH, but still longer than T5's :wink:

one thing I haven't mentioned is actual electricity costs. BC has one of the lowest power costs in north America so on the example tank the difference might be only 8 bucks a month in power consumption but imagine what it might be in California?

another thing to note is actual power requirements to the tank area.. especially on a larger tank. how many circuits do you need for your MH lighting. even on my 30 gal in the example with the two 250 watt MH I will need two 15 amp circuits to run it. if I go with the LED I can run the whole tank on 1 circuit.

another thing that is a huge huge concern on a small tank that I haven't gotten into is heat. one 250 watt MH on a 30 gal tank is going to make a lot of heat and in most cases will require a chiller. so the cost of this plus the power to run it should be taken into account also.

Finlay I am not pushing LEDs only stating the opinions I have formulated over 5 or more years of tinkering with them, and especially from my research in the last year and a bit on the high power LEDs like the Cree.
they just make sense.. to many pros and to many savings.. it just to bad that instead of a 100% mark up that they companies who are making decent fixtures are doing anywhere from a 500 to a 1000% mark up over the cost to make them.

Steve

[TheManicFishkeeper]

Pretty sure he's booked up for the next little while on these projects :)

I was over there the other night, and his setup is certainly nice, and the color is awesome, but again, no long term history to consider yet.
I know what my 400w radiums can do in a year, I haven't seen the LED results yet, or not enough anyway.

Thanks for the kind words Brad, you are one of the first people to see it really (Ronnie did beat you to the punch tho)

Here are some pics of the Dimmable LED+T5 DIY for those interested:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_2068.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_2055.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_2062.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_2058.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_2053.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_2051.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_1996.jpg

[StirCrazy]

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee246/GeekPhysique/DIY%20Projects/IMG_1996.jpg

sweet looking setup, nice and neat.. I feel much better now that there is some one who can keep Brad from burning his house down :mrgreen: keep an eye one what he does :wink:

how about some details on the setup its self?

Steve

[TheManicFishkeeper]

sweet looking setup, nice and neat.. I feel much better now that there is some one who can keep Brad from burning his house down :mrgreen: keep an eye one what he does :wink:

how about some details on the setup its self?

Steve

Sure thing!

Main Tank:
================================
Tank: 265 Gallon Perfecto
Lighting: 16 x 39w HOT5, 60 x 3 watt CREE LED's (ATI Dimmable Ballasts, Meanwell ELN-60-48D Drivers)
Pumps: 4 x Hydor 12V Korallia 4's, 2 x Hydor 12V Korallia 6's, 2 x Tunze Nanostream 6055's

Sump:
================================
Tank: 75 gallon
Skimmer: Bubble Magus Cs 220
Calcium Reactor: Vertex Rx6 Duo
Dosing: GHL Slave 4 Doser w/Bubble Magus Dosing Chambers
Controller: Profilux 3ex w/expansion Box, 3 x 6 Outlet Bars, 1 x 4 Outlet Bars, 3 x Pump Control1 modules, much more.
Reactors: 2 x TLF 550 Media reactors with BioPellets, 1 x TLF 150 Reactor full of FM Power Ultra Phos

Fuge:
================================
Tank: 120 Gallon (48" x 24" x 24")
Lighting: 5 x 54w HOT5
Pumps: Various Korallia hand me downs

Here is a crappy video I shot of the tank with my iPod a week ago, kind of get an idea of how its set up...

Gareth and Megan's 265 Gallon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hbkzyx_pnQ)

[mseepman]

Would love to see this setup...do you allow visitors? I get to the Island for business about every 5 weeks or so.

[Aquattro]

how about some details on the setup its self?

Steve

Here's some detail. You do not want to tank sit this setup when Gareth goes on vacation!! :)

[TheManicFishkeeper]

Would love to see this setup...do you allow visitors? I get to the Island for business about every 5 weeks or so.

For sure, I'm usually good for evenings, or Tuesday-wednesday when I'm not working.

[TheManicFishkeeper]

Here's some detail. You do not want to tank sit this setup when Gareth goes on vacation!! :)

LOL... its gonna run itself while I'm away... one week isnt too bad. Just needs to be fed. Doing my water change tonight/tomorrow and it will be good till I'm back from Cuba..

*fingers crossed*

[StirCrazy]

Here's some detail. You do not want to tank sit this setup when Gareth goes on vacation!! :)

how long you going to sit and stair at all the diffeent colored wires?

Gareth, lock up the electronics if he is babysitting.. that way he can't screw anything up haha

Steve

[Aquattro]

No, I'm not watching it. And I'm pretty sure all the wires are the same color!

[TheManicFishkeeper]

No, I'm not watching it. And I'm pretty sure all the wires are the same color!

lol yes they were, got a good deal on the right guage wire so I had 1000 feet to use..

[sphelps]

the rating for 50,000 hours is right from the cree data sheet, as is the drop off rating for MH's the reason for the drop off in MH is due to the gas and rare metals inside being subjected to the heat inside the bulb. I was looking at the specks for the MH we use int he arena which last longer than the bulbs we use on the tank and they have a 60% dropp off after 20,000 hours and believe me I can tell looking at them as there are a bunch we need to change haha. the rating for the cree is something like 15% after 50,000 hours and because there is no gas or rare earth metals that are being heated and vaporized over and over there is also no color change. also running the new crees at 700mA instead of 1000, or even the rated 1500mA extends the life even longer.

as for running them 11 years I doubt it but I do know street light using high power LEDs have been around for about that so I suspect that the manufactures know what the actual drop off is as it only takes 5 years at 24/7 to get to 50000 hours.

like you I have run the full gambit of lighting, spent over 10K doing it on my 90 gal. wish I didn't but 10 years ago there was no info on lighting.

for the record I am a MH guy, I think T5s are way over rated but good for supplementing color, But I have been playing with Leds for about 5 years maybe more now but for the purpose of moonlighting and supplemental color as the powerful ones were just to expensive until recently.

now for a 30 gal tank (which I am putting together now although it will be a very slow build, as I have to insulate, drywall and heat my shop first) LEDs make way more sense.

this tank will be a SPS high light requirement tank.

the metal halide way I am looking at two fixtures at 250 watt each. I could get away with one, but from experience with my 90 gal and my PAR meter even using a good reflector looses a lot of light at the edges and I find the PAR drop off is significant enough outside of the 20 inch square. to even this out you have to raise the light farther which also drops the overall intensity. so in order to get the levels I want I am looking at two fixtures which will give me about 400 PAR on the tank bottom.

Also I will require a 12" box on top of the tank to enclose the fixture and prevent light spillage. kinda looks funny on a smaller tank

I also like a color in between 10K and 14K so MH bulbs alone don't cut it..

so a decent MH setup from J&L is 312 each x 2 is 622.00
to add 2 DIY T5 bulbs, standoffs, ballast and reflector is 170.00 granted most will be satisfied with 1 MH so for this example we will use 1. so 311.00 plus 170 = 481.00 plus what ever it costs to make you canopy.

if you want to go with a sleek fixture and have a open top like the LED will give me then you are looking at 583 for a 24" fixture with one 250 watt mh and two 24" t5s

for me to do LED for my tank I can get a 48 Ultra Premium LED DIY Kit with Dimmable Drivers for 460 plus 80 for the heat sink, so 540.00 all together. granted I have to build it. and we can add a little more to make it look sweet (like building a hood)

Now this set up with 40 degree optics will also give me PAR levels of 400 on the bottom of my tank.

so the initial purchase on the first MH setup is 60 bucks cheaper and the second MH is more expensive.

power consumption on the MH setup is going to be about 420 watts for a magnetic M80 ballast which I like better because of the higher outputs or about 350 watts for a fancy electronic ballast model plus the T5s so say about 70 watts so 490 or 420.

for the LED set up the power consumption with be about 146.88 watts so a little over 1/3rd of the electronic ballast option.

now the subjective parts. my preferred combo is AB 10K 250 watt SE with uri super actinic VHO the 13K of the ab's plus the URI VHO give a color that is simply unbeatable and the power to match, but the AB bulbs are 180 each. so now my MH set up is going to increase by 100 for a 1MH set up to 200 for a 2 bulb set up but if you like the look of other bulbs that are cheaper then thats a mute point. and I will use 80 buck bulbs as an average for this comparison.

so 11 years changing bulbs once a year for the MH setup is going to be
1430.00 assuming all bulbs last 1 year even the T5s
so now total costs for hardware is

MH 1911.00
LED 540.00

in my case the LEDs save me money before I turn them on, which for a small tank make it more desirable in a small single tank it will take 1 bulb change to make the LEDs cheaper.

lets talk about pros and cons on a small volume tank (say under 50 gal)

PROs

MH
proven track record and the power to grow anything well.
simple to buy and install
wide selections of bulbs

LEDs
proven track record up to 3 years in Canada and US is common, longer in Europe and Asia.
no radiant heat
any color combination you want changeable at whim.
lighting effects from gradual dimming to rock shows able to be made by adding a 70 buck PC controller like and adrunio setup.
directed narrow spread light so light is only where you want it.

CONs

MH
have to change bulb to change color
lots of radiant heat into water
large enclosure/hood required to contain light

LEDs
expensive for a ready made solution, cheaper if you have the skill to build yourself
shorter track record than MH, but still longer than T5's :wink:

one thing I haven't mentioned is actual electricity costs. BC has one of the lowest power costs in north America so on the example tank the difference might be only 8 bucks a month in power consumption but imagine what it might be in California?

another thing to note is actual power requirements to the tank area.. especially on a larger tank. how many circuits do you need for your MH lighting. even on my 30 gal in the example with the two 250 watt MH I will need two 15 amp circuits to run it. if I go with the LED I can run the whole tank on 1 circuit.

another thing that is a huge huge concern on a small tank that I haven't gotten into is heat. one 250 watt MH on a 30 gal tank is going to make a lot of heat and in most cases will require a chiller. so the cost of this plus the power to run it should be taken into account also.

Finlay I am not pushing LEDs only stating the opinions I have formulated over 5 or more years of tinkering with them, and especially from my research in the last year and a bit on the high power LEDs like the Cree.
they just make sense.. to many pros and to many savings.. it just to bad that instead of a 100% mark up that they companies who are making decent fixtures are doing anywhere from a 500 to a 1000% mark up over the cost to make them.

Steve
Steve, your 30 gallon example is worse than my 9x3 foot tank example :lol:. You're dreaming if you think 48 LEDs will compare to 500W of halide plus T5s. And who runs that much light on a 30 gallon? Also 40 degree optics shouldn't be used on a tank unless it's exceptionally tall, all you'll do is create hot spots because a 40 degree optic will actually concentrate most of it's light at around the 20 degree range or lower. You will not get the same par overall, you will get hot spots which may make you believe you do but you won't. But anyway like I mentioned very easy to make up bias examples to prove a point and anything other than that related to a 100 gallon tank size isn't that relative in this thread and the OP.

Couple other things I'll point out:
50,000 hours based on manufacture data sheet means nothing and I believe it's 30% drop, not 15%. Metal halide data sheets state the same deal, 70% remaining after 20,000 hours which is about 5 years (70% is that standard used for bulb life and is based on lumen output). We obviously sometimes experience more par drop due to color shift with certain types of bulbs but be aware that you can keep PAR constant with certain bulb types and using an HQI ballast. Efficiency and color is sacrificed but this may not be a concern as the power used will not be significantly more and if supplemental lighting is also used. Most don't look into this because they figure a couple bulbs aren't that expensive to replace on a yearly bases.

As for street lights some cities have introduced some but reports have shown they do not live up to suppliers claims due to moisture and different climate conditions so LEDs for reef tanks could suffer similar effects due to the moist environment. I did a feasibility study on LED streetlights using aluminum poles in university. The idea was to introduce aluminum poles instead of steel for safety and lower maintenance, we included LED lights to promote better payback periods however in the end the LED lights proved to be more problematic than we originally expected.

As for electrical circuit requirements, 500W of halide is just over 4amps so it can easily run on a single circuit in addition to other equipment. I just installed a bathroom vanity light in my house which uses 5 100W halogens, I didn't have to run a new circuit to power it. You do however typically want two circuits for any tank to have the ability to run life support equipment on a separate circuit.

Since LED fixtures typically only use blue and white LEDs the amount of color changing ability is actually very limited. You could add other colors but it's not very common practice and it's not always that easy to blend them in to avoid color spots. T5s can also be dimmed and with a range of bulb colors and with the ability to change them so easily you will find better color options available in T5s.

It's also pretty hard to tell what a company is using for mark up, 500-1000% percent is highly unlikely. Why don't you start up a business, lease a plant and all the equipment you need, hire workers including at least one electrical engineer, cover all the R&D for development, hire customer support, sales, marketing and possibly even patent costs to protect your own designs or to use another companies. Oh and then make money too. It's not the same as building a fixture in your basement that looks like an electrical hazard and saying "wow that's way cheaper, those companies are just ripping people off".

[sphelps]

Another topic to discuss relating to LEDs is resale. Many of us constantly change our tanks out for bigger or smaller versions and sometimes sh** happens and we need to sell it all or most of it. So how will LED fixtures do in the used market?

Since LED fixtures can in theory last 10+ years how will one confirm the life remaining on the LEDs? With halide and T5 fixtures bulbs are typically replaced anyway to be on the safe side since they aren't too expensive.

If you buy a fixture today for $4K how much can you realistically sell it for in a few years? Since solaris fixtures are one of the few that have been around for long enough I would opt to use that as a guideline although the prehaps not the best example but when they came out reviews were still on average pretty good. The fixtures cost over $3K when they came out, recently seen people trying to sell them for around $600-$700 with little luck.

If you build your own fixture I think your chances of selling it for close to what you paid are significantly lower, although a simple system to the builder the buyer will see something significantly more complicated and may be concerned about integrity, especially when DIY controllers are also introduced. Those with LED experience will see more value but will most likely opt to build their own rather than buy someone elses.

Halide and T5 fixtures can sell for a reasonable amount, especially lower end fixtures that didn't cost that much new such as TEKs and PFOs. I purchased a used giesemann fixture a few years back, with new bulbs that fixture was as good as new, I'm confident I could sell that fixture for pretty much the same price I paid and the buyer would simply stick in new bulbs and the fixture again would be as good as new. Can the same be said about LED fixtures?

[mseepman]

Another topic to discuss relating to LEDs is resale.

If you build your own fixture I think your chances of selling it for close to what you paid are significantly lower, although a simple system to the builder the buyer will see something significantly more complicated and may be concerned about integrity, especially when DIY controllers are also introduced. Those with LED experience will see more value but will most likely opt to build their own rather than buy someone elses.



Funny enough, I've been really researching the DIY LED side of things as I will be building my own and of the various setups that have been made via the detailed threads on RC and NR, a lot of them have been sold for more than they cost. Their reason for selling...to make bigger and fancier ones of course...that's what DIYer's do.:biggrin:

[sphelps]

Funny enough, I've been really researching the DIY LED side of things as I will be building my own and of the various setups that have been made via the detailed threads on RC and NR, a lot of them have been sold for more than they cost. Their reason for selling...to make bigger and fancier ones of course...that's what DIYer's do.:biggrin:
That's strange cause a quick search on RC shows nothing of the sort

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1962137&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1949211&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1949804&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1942997&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1933905&highlight=led

Perhaps this was a special circumstance from a reputable builder on RC? I can see someone that people would consider an expert and has spectacular build quality could sell their DIY fixtures for a decent amount in comparison to the cost of parts alone but for us average Joes, I doubt it.

[freezetyle]

Another topic to discuss relating to LEDs is resale. Many of us constantly change our tanks out for bigger or smaller versions and sometimes sh** happens and we need to sell it all or most of it. So how will LED fixtures do in the used market?

Since LED fixtures can in theory last 10+ years how will one confirm the life remaining on the LEDs? With halide and T5 fixtures bulbs are typically replaced anyway to be on the safe side since they aren't too expensive.



Many fixtures do allow you to replace leds. Aqua illuminations sells their led pucks incase one expires and maxspect you can change out each individual one with a variety of colors now if you choose. i think Vertex is getting into this idea as well with their newer auxiliary models.

I agree that there are a few fixtures and some DIY unit that are going to be inhibited by this problem but i can see a lot more companies in the led market giving the consumer the ability to customize the fixture.

[mseepman]

That's strange cause a quick search on RC shows nothing of the sort

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1962137&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1949211&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1949804&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1942997&highlight=led
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1933905&highlight=led

Perhaps this was a special circumstance from a reputable builder on RC? I can see someone that people would consider an expert and has spectacular build quality could sell their DIY fixtures for a decent amount in comparison to the cost of parts alone but for us average Joes, I doubt it.

I hadn't even looked at the FS forum on RC, I was simply talking about some of the long DIY threads where I've followed the builder through multiple renditions of their light (as they sell each one to help pay for the next build).

[sphelps]

Many fixtures do allow you to replace leds. Aqua illuminations sells their led pucks incase one expires and maxspect you can change out each individual one with a variety of colors now if you choose. i think Vertex is getting into this idea as well with their newer auxiliary models.

I agree that there are a few fixtures and some DIY unit that are going to be inhibited by this problem but i can see a lot more companies in the led market giving the consumer the ability to customize the fixture.
Yes I know, most fixtures being produced now have replaceable LEDs, but for how much? My point was you can replace a couple halides and T5s for around $200-$300 depending on the type and quantity. You can also usually get an idea on how old T5 bulbs and halide bulbs are by their brightness and color. LEDs are a little trickier and at probably around $10 per LED depending on the manufacturer you could end up spending close to $1000 for a 4 foot fixture.

[freezetyle]

Yes I know, most fixtures being produced now have replaceable LEDs, but for how much? My point was you can replace a couple halides and T5s for around $200-$300 depending on the type and quantity. You can also usually get an idea on how old T5 bulbs and halide bulbs are by their brightness and color. LEDs are a little trickier and at probably around $10 per LED depending on the manufacturer you could end up spending close to $1000 for a 4 foot fixture.

Yea i agree they are expensive at the moment. i think a puck with three leds from AI runs about $25 USD. But like everything as more products become available price should start to fall.

Aside from DIY LED are still in their infancy compared to MH and T5. we need those early adopters to to weed out the crap. haha

[mseepman]

we need those early adopters to to weed out the crap. haha

Haha...well who knows if I will end up regretting my decision to go LED...but I'm invested now and my research suggests that it will be well worth it.

[sphelps]

Yea i agree they are expensive at the moment. i think a puck with three leds from AI runs about $25 USD. But like everything as more products become available price should start to fall.

Aside from DIY LED are still in their infancy compared to MH and T5. we need those early adopters to to weed out the crap. haha
Yeah I agree however special puck LEDs like those in AI will likely not drop in price unless the company allows other manufactures to make them which is doubtful as the replacement LEDs will be a good source of revenue in the future. They could also change the design in new fixtures 10 years from now so I would worried about being able to purchase such a unique replacement in the distant future.

[freezetyle]

Yeah I agree however special puck LEDs like those in AI will likely not drop in price unless the company allows other manufactures to make them which is doubtful as the replacement LEDs will be a good source of revenue in the future. They could also change the design in new fixtures 10 years from now so I would worried about being able to purchase such a unique replacement in the distant future.

I agree with that as well. but you also have to think about other companies making aftermarket products for one fixture. this is a broad (VERY broad) example but look at all of the different MH and T5 bulbs available to the consumer. The quality of the bulbs are all over the map too. I expect as more fixtures are available more companies will come out with fixtures or replacement part which will cater to people different price points.

like you said the fixtures will only change over the next period of time while the people and companies settle on (by sales) a system that works for everyone.

I have been trying to hold out on adopting LED's for that reason but i do like the results i have seen so far with them and i am a sucker for the technology in them. i wish dimmable t5's and Mh made a bigger splash in the market.

[Lego]

Thanks to the people that have showed some photos with LED setups. Great post Lampshade!

Some are Pro LED, Some are Dead against it and some are sitting on the fence.

It reminds me when I had seen tanks 20 years ago with Canister filters like Fluval, Mag Drive and Hot mags for filters... it was skimmer what?? Back then... Granted there were some skimmers out there but it was like finding a hens tooth... kind of like the LED right now.

No one really knows if they are the cats ass yet.

I would just remind some people forget the cost of them... Everyone keeps going back to the 2-$3k LED setups. I said it before Vertex has a setup for about $500 coming out for tanks up too 6'. the 4' bar is the $500 range. Now the lighting cost is coming with-in reason. No fancy controller but nor does a MH of any kind. If you have something that does have this fancy controller can you show me this thing?? I'm sure it would popular.

[Aquaholic]

I am just getting my system going and wanted to go with an LED system... this is what i have no water, live rock, ect... yet

they look nice an bright and with the multi controler i have them on for sunrise/sunset and moon light.

7228

7229

[TJSlayer]

I will hopefully have something to add in about a month or so.....stay tuned will be doing a full review of the setup...

[reefermadness]

I think the overall tone of the topic is that nobody is really sure..ok, they look pretty, they can do lightning storms and adjust color a bit. But my primary objective is to grow the blueist and purplist corals I can, long term. I don't believe that LEDs can do that (yet?). Also, the cost over five years, for new lighting setups may be beneficial over five years, but I couldn't afford a LED fixture up front, even if it's going to save me money in the long term. I can however afford 300/yr for bulbs over the next five years without a problem. It's the same principle of my mortgage, I'd save tons if I had that kind of cash :)
I have run 400w radiums for years, and continue to do so. I can find years worth of awesome tanks running the same config, so I know that these do the job I need done. LED, at this point, is still a lot of speculation on what MAY be a good lighting system 4 or 5 years down the road.
No lighting system is the best for every application, so one needs to decide what is best for their application, and for me, the MHs are the system of choice. Maybe it costs me more over 5 years, but so what? This isn't a budget hobby, and for my money, I know what I'm getting in terms of light. It's tried and true. 5 years from now, I may look at LED when it's affordable by the common peasant, but for now, to me anyway, it's a rich man's lighting experiment!!

My sediments exactly. I think there is great future for LED but I'll let others be the guinea pigs. When I start seeing TOTMs using LED for years, and the economics make sense....I will make the switch.

BTW....I cant believe I read this whole thread...I was expecting to see way more pictures. Im a picture book kind of guy..haha.

[someguy]

Interesting discussion, not so many photos :cry:

I'm new to this hobby and have just set up my tank using AI LED modules.
My thoughts:
1) the assertion that this technology is unproven for growing coral seems false to me. A little time spent on RC or some European forums will show a number of tanks that have been using LEDs successfully for years. Just because you haven't physically seen one with your own eyes doens't mean they don't exist.
Sanjay Joshi has also published some PAR readings from some fixtures, and the numbers seem comparable to traditional technologies.
2) Economy - yes at this point the quality fixtures are expensive, and as has been discussed here a number of different ways, they may or may not be more economical in the long run. But the reality is that today, cost does not appear to be rational reason to invest in LEDs.
3) Aesthetics - in designing my tank, I was aiming for a sleek, modern look, and MH simply are not a good option for those, without getting into the very expensive European fixtures. At that price point, there is no difference with the cost of quality LED fixtures.
Having said this, I currently have my modules mounted on the AI rails, which are admittedly ugly. I will remedy this at some point.
4)Efficiency - what has not been mentioned in this thread, outside of cost, is that LEDs are more efficient. In short, they are a greener solution, and that matters to me. In this same vein, what has not been mentioned is that LEDs are often run below their maximum capability, so when doing the cost/usage math, this should be factored in.
5) Coverage - my particular system does have a spotlighting effect currently, but that can be dealt with. I am planning on adding a third module, and raising them all higher from the water to give greater spread. The AI units come with 40 degree optics for the middle four pucks, but 70 degree optics are available if I prefer those.

And lastly a photo. Obviously this tank is very new as the bright white rocks will attest, but I'll post updates as the tank matures.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu73/aceballo/Tank/FTS221Mar2011.jpg

[GMGQ]

Brad,

Did you ever figure out how to wire a fan with the driver? I've been trying to figure this out too, as I dont see a point of having a separate power brick just to run the fan.

It would be great to wire it with the driver and LEDs so that the fan comes on when the LEDs come on.

LMK, thanks man.

Gary

No, you don't understand. My really complex electrical project right now is connecting my fans to the adapter :) Me and wires, well, not so good. And the intricate detail work, not really me either.

So I'll put my name up tho for a rain check on the building, just in case I ever change my mind -lol

[StirCrazy]

Brad,

Did you ever figure out how to wire a fan with the driver? I've been trying to figure this out too, as I dont see a point of having a separate power brick just to run the fan.

It would be great to wire it with the driver and LEDs so that the fan comes on when the LEDs come on.

LMK, thanks man.

Gary

he has doors on his stand, what else do you want? this is a huge step for Brad :mrgreen:

[apexifd]

I too decided to get on the led band wagon. But I am only upgrading my biocube 29 from PC to led

Here are some pictures

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/apexifd/300599e5.jpg
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/apexifd/7042b739.jpg
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/apexifd/0ead9a20.jpg

[apexifd]

Now.. With just 6 white and 6 blue wire up... And this is bright.

I can't wait to replace 2x36 PC in the bio cube with 72 watts of led.

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/apexifd/54615f28.jpg
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss67/apexifd/c15ed7ae.jpg

[abcha0s]

What brand???

[pscott99]

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m540/thehawk99/IMG_0502.jpg

[apexifd]

What brand???

Helios Crew Corporation (HCC) LED. 3w puts out 170 lumen @ 700ma.

[asylumdown]

I've been following this thread with interest as I'm still very much on the fence about how to light a 6 foot x 3 foot by 26-30 inch deep (haven't decided how deep yet) tank. After reading the whole thread, I'm still firmly perched on that fence.

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

i am just doing some finishing touches on one of the led module.
i will post a couple photos later.

[mseepman]

Older thread here but wondering if there are some more pictures that people can add to this thread. I am still planning on building my DIY fixture but my house got stalled part way into the build and I've been preoccupied with that, and children and changing jobs...etc.

Any new pics people have of their LED's?

[Gabe188]

Wow, this turned from a tank shot page to a Why LED page quick :P

My 2 cents. Cost isn't going to be huge saving, like people have said and showed, cost of builds and electricity savings are going to eventually pay off the LEDS. But as also stated, people are assuming the LED's and drivers won't malfunction during that time (technically they shouldn't... but...). Same goes with MH too though, as i'm sure anybody using an old humming ballast knows.

The HUGE benifit in my opinion is the wave length on LED's... it doesn't change. No color shifting after 6 months like MH(even the best bulb will have some shift.) The output is at least 70% after 5 years of 12 hours a day use. Most people are underdriving their DIY systems, so they can increase to get that 70% back later on. Big setups are usually driven to max, but have sufficient cooling so that it won't matter.

People ahave been arguing the PAR rating etc, but PAR is a poor measure of what we need, most meters check all light between 400nm-700nm and give back the average over that amount. What we really need is the used wavelengthss since coral doesn't use an average from 400nm-700nm. PUR is better, but hard to measure. What you CAN see is the output of LED's on a wavelenth compared to what algee needs to grow. This is why i'm going LED's(not cree LED's or a good MH bulb/balast, but you can find wavelengths for both from cree's site and from sanjay's site, just a good general example)
http://aquariumdigest.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/led-mh-4.jpg?w=500

Here's some links on LED's that should relate to this "tank pics":

benfits:
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186982
Tank Pics(nano's but shows):
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=200335
LED build with par readings(my favorite LED tank so far):
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1761942
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18043713&postcount=388 (vid's)

Here's a pic of that tank:
http://i45.tinypic.com/ibkvth.jpg

I'm upgrading my tank and debating if i should keep my MH or switch to LEDs. My first impression of LED is fairly positive. I hate switching MH lights every year. The heat output is a big minus as well. I've been habituated to the cooling fan noise, but it is loud and annoying for others.
I don't see many commented this setup. I think the setup looks pretty amazing. How is your tank doing, Lampshade?

[Cal_stir]

8174

8179

8176

8177



quote=mseepman;627527]Older thread here but wondering if there are some more pictures that people can add to this thread. I am still planning on building my DIY fixture but my house got stalled part way into the build and I've been preoccupied with that, and children and changing jobs...etc.

Any new pics people have of their LED's?[/quote]
Here is my 72 3watt Cree, DIY, 36 XPG cool white, 27 XPE royal blue, 9 XPE blue, no optics, w/meanwell dimmable drivers, controlled with RKE ALC.
The first pic is the LED, the 2nd is a 4x54w T5 HO

[mseepman]

Nice...good to see some more setups here.

[dc4]

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=8189

2x E.shine 60w LED units @ 70% (acclimating)

Excellent value and no heat issues!

[Doug]

I will take a pic of my 20g sps nano with my led fixture for the thread. Smaller, however its the first time in 30yrs. my sps are growing and have good colours. :lol:

[Parker]

I've been tossing around the idea of going L.E.D. for Actinic lighting. My canopy isn't built yet so I havne't put in a ton of reaserch yet.

[ponokareefer]

I've been tossing around the idea of going L.E.D. for Actinic lighting. My canopy isn't built yet so I havne't put in a ton of reaserch yet.

Check out modularled.ca. They have a lot of knowledge, are out of Red Deer and are a canreef sponsor.

[Lampshade]

I don't see many commented this setup. I think the setup looks pretty amazing. How is your tank doing, Lampshade?

Sorry, wasn't clear enough in the post, that's not my tank, it's the one I linked there from RC, great tank, and the guy has some pretty good info on LED systems. With LED technology going so fast I'm waiting for a little bit. 2 Months ago if you said red LED's you would have been laughed at... and now... well... Ecotech's new system and Vertex upgrades are giving red/green lights.


Some amazing setups in here though, and lots in other forums as well, the whole LED Voodoo "oh no! something new!" Is pretty proven out, and as more people and technology go towards it it can only get better.

[ReefOcean]

I don't really buy into the fact LEDs will come down as much as people seem to think.

Percvisely. Sort of like how Metal halide arent coming down, yet there is competition for cheaper chinese products like odyssea.

People tend to forget the prices are set to tollerances created by the consumer. Not by competition. It is the consumer that decides that the prices are too high from company A, and decides to go to company B. Just Because company B is cheaper, doesnt mean company A through Z is going to lower prices.

There is also a matter of technology and patents. High power LEDs cost a lot of money per unit. Cicuitry, drivers and power supplies from respectible manufactureres cost money as well. When you are buying a system like Vertex and the late PFO Solaris, you are paying for the materials, and a niche-market adjusted margin. Yes, let's not forget that the aquarium market is a niche, in a niche-market companies have to increase their margines to adjust for the fact their market is small, and volume sales are low.

Besides, there ARE cheap LED fixtures out there, but they are made with substandard materials.

Expect their pricing to stay relatively the same for a very long time.

[whatcaneyedo]

Percvisely. Sort of like how Metal halide arent coming down, yet there is competition for cheaper chinese products like odyssea.t mean company A through Z is going to lower prices.


You sure? The price of each of my metal halide pendants has dropped $50 in the last 3 years.


... So does anyone have any LED tank pictures to show off?

[daniella3d]

what about colour in SPS with LED? Everyone I know who tried LED with SPS changed that after a year or two because they did not like how the color in their SPS turned out.

What about a hot pink birdnest under LED? what about those crazy color we seen in SPS? can it be done with LED and if so, where are the pics?

[ReefOcean]

You sure? The price of each of my metal halide pendants has dropped $50 in the last 3 years.


... So does anyone have any LED tank pictures to show off?

From where? I bet you, that manufactuer wholesale prices didnt go down. Perhaps the company adjusted it's price integrity and allowed retailers to sell for less. Perhaps the company outsourced to China and it temporarily beinifting from lower production costs. There are a lot of variables. Regardless, inflation and volume usually effects the cost of goods. If these products are made in China, guaranteed that prices are going up, not down.

If they are made in the US and Canada, where inflation is a bit more under control you wont see a significant price drop but not a price increase either. People have to understand. LED lights are not PCs or cars. They arent purchased by everybody on the planet. There arent investors chucking billions at Vertex, building up their infrastructure. It just simply isnt economically plausable.

Not to mention, the patents that need to be paid to manufacture these things. When you consider base cost for material, a limited consumer base and inflation, prices will not drop and if they do, I would not invest money into those companies that are desperately dropping prices to save themselves...they are going under.

[whatcaneyedo]

From where? I bet you, that manufactuer wholesale prices didnt go down. Perhaps the company adjusted it's price integrity and allowed retailers to sell for less. Perhaps the company outsourced to China and it temporarily beinifting from lower production costs. There are a lot of variables. Regardless, inflation and volume usually effects the cost of goods. If these products are made in China, guaranteed that prices are going up, not down.

If they are made in the US and Canada, where inflation is a bit more under control you wont see a significant price drop but not a price increase either. People have to understand. LED lights are not PCs or cars. They arent purchased by everybody on the planet. There arent investors chucking billions at Vertex, building up their infrastructure. It just simply isnt economically plausable.

Not to mention, the patents that need to be paid to manufacture these things. When you consider base cost for material, a limited consumer base and inflation, prices will not drop and if they do, I would not invest money into those companies that are desperately dropping prices to save themselves...they are going under.

Sorry it was $40 not $50. I found my old receipt which says $169.95, currently on their website they are $129.95. They are Lumenmax 3s that I bought at J&L.

Everyone in the developed world is using LEDs now. They're in consumer goods, homes, office buildings and industrial plants. They're also in PCs and cars.

[claymax]

Check out modularled.ca. They have a lot of knowledge, are out of Red Deer and are a canreef sponsor.

+1 for modular LED, quick easy helpful, i put my leds heatsink and fan right inside the canopy for my JBJ 28g, with a little help from the grizz of course, works great and still looks sexy

[freezetyle]

90 gallon
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/freezetyle/IMG_1194.jpg

[sphelps]

Sorry it was $40 not $50. I found my old receipt which says $169.95, currently on their website they are $129.95. They are Lumenmax 3s that I bought at J&L.

Everyone in the developed world is using LEDs now. They're in consumer goods, homes, office buildings and industrial plants. They're also in PCs and cars.

Where is this developed world?? I've never seen an office building or industrial plant that uses LEDs for lighting and I'm a contractor that works in different offices and manufacturing plants all the time. Also I just got a new house, no LEDs anywhere and there really wasn't much available for fixtures with the exception of a few over priced dim bulbs and under cabinet lighting. Even new street lights still use HPS even though new LED streetlights exist cities are just not buying into them.

LED technology is great but it's still developing and has a long way to go before it's as popular as you seem to think it is. Will LED prices go down, yes but not in the way you think off. New LEDs with higher efficiency are released every damn day, the LEDs I purchased a few months back are now cheaper and obs. They've been replaced with a new model which is better but also more expensive... Quite simply prices will remain the same for the latest and greatest but cheaper options will always exist but nobody wants those :razz:

In this LED game plan on spending a decent amount with no chance of being able to recover your costs in resale as your fixture will be obs in as little as a few months. Plan to keep it long enough to cover your costs in efficiency savings alone or better yet buy it for other reasons all together.

Also keep in mind your halides don't become obs, they have been consistently the latest and greatest MHs for years and many years to come. Oh and you over paid for your reflectors, I purchased my luminarc 3 several years ago for $130. Hence the price drop really has nothing to do the technology fading.

[lastlight]

Sorta like buying a computer and all the chip upgrades. I never buy the very highest end model and you save a lot and get very close to the same performance. Sure your LEDs are obs now but another person I guess can come alone and buy a bunch of them for much less and still have a great light (like you will) when all's said and done.

It's due to things changing so fast that you can to some degree see savings by going a step down. I may be wrong but I don't think with previous lighting options we saw that same opportunity to save?

I suppose a major part of all this is the need to purchase many LEDs vs buying a lamp or two or a reflector or two so buying a slightly older LED x many saves you a lot.

[parkinsn]

Where is this developed world?? I've never seen an office building or industrial plant that uses LEDs for lighting and I'm a contractor that works in different offices and manufacturing plants all the time.

I sold a few of these 2 years ago to an industrial plant :biggrin:

http://www1.crouse-hinds.com/crousehinds/newproducts/newproducts.cfm?action=view&id=308

But I do agree with you that there is lots of product out there in the LED world but very little is "main stream" as of right now. There was LED A19's and MR16's several years ago for the resi market, but I have yet to sell them on any sort of regulaur basis if at all.

On topic....

MOAR PICS PLZ

[sphelps]

This was my LED fluval edge

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/fluval%20edge/DSC_6423.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/fluval%20edge/DSC_6426.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/fluval%20edge/DSC_6429.jpg

[sphelps]

Sorta like buying a computer and all the chip upgrades. I never buy the very highest end model and you save a lot and get very close to the same performance. Sure your LEDs are obs now but another person I guess can come alone and buy a bunch of them for much less and still have a great light (like you will) when all's said and done.

It's due to things changing so fast that you can to some degree see savings by going a step down. I may be wrong but I don't think with previous lighting options we saw that same opportunity to save?

I suppose a major part of all this is the need to purchase many LEDs vs buying a lamp or two or a reflector or two so buying a slightly older LED x many saves you a lot.

Yes potential for savings in the DIY area but not so much in the fixture area, well at least not anymore compared to other lighting fixtures. Also when buying OBS LED components you'll have to be good with timing as sales are really only significant once inventory stops being replenished.

[Aquaria]

Where is this developed world?? I've never seen an office building or industrial plant that uses LEDs for lighting and I'm a contractor that works in different offices and manufacturing plants all the time. Also I just got a new house, no LEDs anywhere and there really wasn't much available for fixtures with the exception of a few over priced dim bulbs and under cabinet lighting. Even new street lights still use HPS even though new LED streetlights exist cities are just not buying into them.

LED technology is great but it's still developing and has a long way to go before it's as popular as you seem to think it is. Will LED prices go down, yes but not in the way you think off. New LEDs with higher efficiency are released every damn day, the LEDs I purchased a few months back are now cheaper and obs. They've been replaced with a new model which is better but also more expensive... Quite simply prices will remain the same for the latest and greatest but cheaper options will always exist but nobody wants those :razz:


I don't really agree Vancouver is replacing alot of lamps for led lions gate bridge for example is all LED, u carry LEDs in ur pocket everyday cells, iPods, tablets, gaming systems, computers, even tvs are LED nowadays. I was helping to install LED fixtures in houses in west van expensive or not they do exist IMHO we use LEDs in more applications then u make it sound like

[Aquaria]

Oh and I almost forgot neon signs are a thing o the past there all LED signs now most malls u go into that have an electric sign board are LED don't forget flashlights and the new LED bulbs that u can use in any old fixture

[sphelps]

I don't really agree Vancouver is replacing alot of lamps for led lions gate bridge for example is all LED, u carry LEDs in ur pocket everyday cells, iPods, tablets, gaming systems, computers, even tvs are LED nowadays. I was helping to install LED fixtures in houses in west van expensive or not they do exist IMHO we use LEDs in more applications then u make it sound like

While most of those applications aren't really the same LED technology (lighting applications), essentially all that is related to the computer industry where LED technology has almost always been, it's improving but so is everything in the electronic industry but the point is LEDs are not new in those applications nor are they used for lighting purposes. Now the one good example is the LED retrofit on the lions gate bridge where someone is replacing so called old technology with new. However how many other bridges in the world are following the same path? How many houses are now using LEDs instead of other technology? How many plants, factories, office buildings are using LEDs for lighting purposes? What percentage would you guess? Realistically we have a long way to go before claiming LEDs are now in everything. This was my point not that you can find LEDs in your cell phone or TV.

[Blom]

Sphelps that fluval edge you had is nothing short of out of this world.

[sphelps]

Sphelps that fluval edge you had is nothing short of out of this world.

Ha! Thanks. Expect to see it again but in the hands of someone else....

[sphelps]

Oh and I almost forgot neon signs are a thing o the past there all LED signs now most malls u go into that have an electric sign board are LED don't forget flashlights and the new LED bulbs that u can use in any old fixture

Oh right I forgot about the $60 6W LED 10year bulbs that make way more sense than the $2 13W CF 5year bulbs. You'd have to leave your lights on 24hrs a day for 10 years for that investment to make sense right now. Plus they are dim as hell, I know because I was stupid enough to try out a couple where I wanted dimmers.

[Aquaria]

LEDs in tvs are new and I'll bet if u dismantle one it would look alot like the guts of ur LED fixture for ur tank and there way cheaper then they were two years ago in all I'm not saying ur wrong just that it's used more widely then u made it sound like also my buddy who worked on the lions gate retrofit said the company that did it ( company is his aunts ) is in the works for doing other bridges in Canada and the city is plannig on replacing street lamps with the led ones so it's only a matter of time

[Aquaria]

Oh right I forgot about the $60 6W LED 10year bulbs that make way more sense than the $2 13W CF 5year bulbs. You'd have to leave your lights on 24hrs a day for 10 years for that investment to make sense right now. Plus they are dim as hell, I know because I was stupid enough to try out a couple where I wanted dimmers.

24 bucks for said bulb at home depot

[sphelps]

Yes a matter of time....

As for LED TVs being similar to our fixtures that's not really the case. LED Tvs still work on LCD principles but just use LEDs as a back light, it's really nothing special and hardly an advancement. Opening an LED TV would show almost identical results to opening a standard LCD. The price drop you see in TVs has nothing to do with LED technology becoming more popular or more advanced, they're TVs, encase you haven't noticed they get cheaper with or without LEDs.

[sphelps]

24 bucks for said bulb at home depot

Yeah perhaps cheaper now I guess but so are the CFs. However the cheaper LED ones are non dimable which kind of defeats the purpose and they are only 40W equivalent, rather than 60W equivalent CFs. So those really aren't the bulbs I was speaking of, those are still in the $40-$60 range.

[ReefOcean]

Sorry it was $40 not $50. I found my old receipt which says $169.95, currently on their website they are $129.95. They are Lumenmax 3s that I bought at J&L.

Everyone in the developed world is using LEDs now. They're in consumer goods, homes, office buildings and industrial plants. They're also in PCs and cars.



I dont know anybody that uses LEDS for anything aside from the ones located inside of electronic devices. On that note, my old work used 400 watt metal halids that cost 60 dollars per fixture including bulb. How come aquarium MH are 600-2000 just for the metal frame when you can get a industrial MH for 60 bucks? Where in the cost of materials and technology, does 5 bucks of aluminim, some plastic and a power chord cost $600?

People in every house can use LEDs in the future, doesnt mean that LEDs made for aquariums will cost any less.

Now there is merrit in saying that you can use older, outdated LEDs to lower the cost but as I said, the materials in a metal halide fixture that costs 600 dollars might cost 25..does production cost really affect the price of aquaria items?...Reefers also tend to demand cutting edge technology, do they run down and buy those 10 dollar Odyssea MH bulbs but the truckload? No, they buy the 120 dollar bulbs just like they will want the new Cree Chips that cost 15/pc in their fixtures.

I will stand by it a million times over, prices in a niche-market stay relatively the same since demand on the item is low and people are willing to pay a premium. Of course, there are "cheap' LED fixtures out there that use bridgelux, I have one. It is alrgiht, but still cost 300 dollars and it not good enough to effectively keep sps for an extended period of time. Cheap products in this hobby have a bad rep and cosidered substandard....there is a stigma attatched to any product that seems to cost less then the others. Ask Odyssea, who actually produces product with a reasonable margin.

[lastlight]

These LED fixtures aren't going to get any cheaper I don't think so I agree. The DIY crowd should be able to take advantage of the savings of getting a slightly older diode if they are available.

[sphelps]

These LED fixtures aren't going to get any cheaper I don't think so I agree.
Actually maybe fixtures will get cheaper, much cheaper, I mean I just noticed by cordless phone has a little red LED that blinks when the battery is low and this exact phone is now $20 cheaper at future shop and that only has one LED!

[Madreefer]

Can we get back on topic please. The title says show us your LED tanks. Not lets debate the price of LED lights.

[sphelps]

Can we get back on topic please. The title says show us your LED tanks. Not lets debate the price of LED lights.

HERE YOU GO (http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=891&q=LED+aquarium&gbv=2&oq=LED+aquarium&aq=f&aqi=g3g-m5&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2193l6967l0l7999l12l11l0l0l0l0l200l1444l1.9 .1l11l0#q=LED+aquarium+fts&hl=en&gbv=2&tbas=0&tbs=itp:photo,isz:l,ic:color&tbm=isch&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=aE5pTsCjKKaQsQK08MGTDg&ved=0CBUQpwUoAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=2ccf0515e435e6b2&biw=1280&bih=891)

Now back to what's obviously more interesting :wink:

[lastlight]

Can we get back on topic please. The title says show us your LED tanks. Not lets debate the price of LED lights.

There's a lot more derail than there are LED tanks apparently =)

[whatcaneyedo]

I dont know anybody that uses LEDS for anything aside from the ones located inside of electronic devices.

Really? :lol:

[ReefOcean]

Really? :lol:

Really. Everbody i know uses incondecsent or if they really care about energy, CFL.

[Madreefer]

There's a lot more derail than there are LED tanks apparently =)

Well after seeing the new Ecotech Radion write up I do plan on switching over to them. That will be sometime when the snow starts hitting the ground. My bride gave me the go ahead but I have to sell my sled first. But after several different injuries and being buried in an avalanche it's not so bad.

[sphelps]

Yeah those Radions look pretty sweet! I'd be curious to see the final price on them though, $750 seems a bit low for Ecotech, I suspect the final price will be a little higher, for all the features listed anyway. But either way 2 of those would definitely suit my needs.

[lastlight]

Yeah and 6 - 8 for me. Sorry I'll go pout over in my LWL thread now.

[Madreefer]

Well on another thread it says they will be $825 and I think 2 will be good for me.

[Madreefer]

[QUOTE=lastlight;634Sorry I'll go pout over in my LWL thread now.[/QUOTE]

Huh? Whats that?

[sphelps]

It's already listed on some sites for pre-order so pricing may be good:
http://www.marinedepot.com/Ecotech_Marine_Radion_XR30w_LED_Light_Fixture_20_I nch_LED_Light_Fixtures-EcoTech_Marine-EM3111-FILTFILDTN-vi.html

Also not sure what this is on about but worth a gander if considering the purchase:
http://blog.captive-aquatics.com/captive_aquatics/2011/09/ecotech-marines-radion-xr30-led-light-a-swing-and-a-miss.html

[lastlight]

That last link is interesting but really looks to be a sales pitch for Orphek (which to me also appears to be an impressive light). Hey it could all be true but I was scrolling around afterwards looking for links etc for Orphek. Sure enough I found'em.

They link to the 1350g build which is of course a large Orphek showcase... I've since heard that the fixtures they sourced are custom and not even the same as the standard Orphek lights you or I would buy from the site.

LED is a-swirl in confusion (for me at least).

[Rice Reef]

Quote from Marine Depot
Usage Guidelines

One Radion fixture is comparable to one 250w metal halide
Generally, one Radion fixture should be used per 40 gallons (150L) of water volume.
Approximate surface coverage is 24x24 inches (60x60cm).
Does this refer to water volume in the tank only and if talking about just tank size, for a 90 gallon should I go for three? Really like what I see and seriously considering switching over from MH to LED now.

[sphelps]

I'd wait for a few reviews and feedback from actual users before signing up for a pre-order. The wattage on these kinds of fixtures can be misleading as it depends on what level each set of LEDs is operating at but I would suspect 2 would be plenty for a 90 gallon.

[sphelps]

That last link is interesting but really looks to be a sales pitch for Orphek (which to me also appears to be an impressive light). Hey it could all be true but I was scrolling around afterwards looking for links etc for Orphek. Sure enough I found'em.

They link to the 1350g build which is of course a large Orphek showcase... I've since heard that the fixtures they sourced are custom and not even the same as the standard Orphek lights you or I would buy from the site.

LED is a-swirl in confusion (for me at least).
I agree but it does make you wonder with all these new fixtures coming out each kicking up the gimmick level one more notch. It really gets to the point of not knowing what the heck is good and bad. But I do know that halides make great reefs :wink:

[Rice Reef]

yeah, good point. Would suck to have blown $2 grand and not being impressed. Would be nice to have it for Xmas.

[martinmcnally]

Quote from Marine Depot
Usage Guidelines

One Radion fixture is comparable to one 250w metal halide
Generally, one Radion fixture should be used per 40 gallons (150L) of water volume.
Approximate surface coverage is 24x24 inches (60x60cm).
Does this refer to water volume in the tank only and if talking about just tank size, for a 90 gallon should I go for three? Really like what I see and seriously considering switching over from MH to LED now.

If you are talking about the 3W Cree LEDs that are everywhere now a handy way to work it out is your tank LxHxW (all in inches) divided by 324. That will give you the number of individual LEDs recommended. Although that fixture has red and green LEDs in there too which are not factored into that formula. Their usefulness is still to be determined.

[whatcaneyedo]

Really. Everbody i know uses incondecsent or if they really care about energy, CFL.


Well then this is your lucky day! :biggrin: My name is Russell and I own at least 10 strands of LED Christmas lights, 2 LED flashlights and an LED 'spot' light (one of those adhesive stick-anywhere lights).

[gobytron]

Quote from Marine Depot
Usage Guidelines

One Radion fixture is comparable to one 250w metal halide
Generally, one Radion fixture should be used per 40 gallons (150L) of water volume.
Approximate surface coverage is 24x24 inches (60x60cm).
Does this refer to water volume in the tank only and if talking about just tank size, for a 90 gallon should I go for three? Really like what I see and seriously considering switching over from MH to LED now.

Unless I'm in JL talking to Rene or John, I just have a hard time taking lfs reccomendations seriously.

Your results may vary.

[Aquaria]

Unless I'm in JL talking to Rene or John, I just have a hard time takinf lfs reccomendations seriously.

Your results may vary.

+1 me to lol iv found most LFS will lie to u so as to make more money Rene an John actually give good advice

[StirCrazy]

If you are talking about the 3W Cree LEDs that are everywhere now a handy way to work it out is your tank LxHxW (all in inches) divided by 324. That will give you the number of individual LEDs recommended.

um.. thats a handy way to figure out how many gallons your tank is now how many LEDs you need. LEDs are based on coverage only so how many would you need to evenly cover a surface area not a volume.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Yeah perhaps cheaper now I guess but so are the CFs. However the cheaper LED ones are non dimable which kind of defeats the purpose and they are only 40W equivalent, rather than 60W equivalent CFs. So those really aren't the bulbs I was speaking of, those are still in the $40-$60 range.

actualy I bought two yesterday at home depot. 60 watt equiv, dimable 19.00 each, and I am very impressed with them. I tried dimmable CFLs but they suck and dim at different rates so I took them back.

house hold LEDs are dropping in price quite quickly now that there is more compatition. but the bigger thing we should worry about here is the mercury in CFLs. I am slowly changing out all my cfl's to LED now that there are good options in a reasonable price now.

Steve

[sphelps]

um.. thats a handy way to figure out how many gallons your tank is now how many LEDs you need. LEDs are based on coverage only so how many would you need to evenly cover a surface area not a volume.

Steve

You divide cubic inches by 231 to get gallons not 324. But I agree that might not be the best way to decide on the amount of LEDs, kind of similar to the 5W per gallon deal.

As far as I know you need to be in the range of one LED for each 10-15 square inches. So for example take your tank foot print to be 48"x24", that's 1152sq" meaning you'll want to aim for a range within 76 to 115 LEDs, give or take. Now deciding on a final number will depend on your tank height and coral requirements. For something average say 24" tall and mixed reef with SPS you'd probably aim right in the middle of that range.

[sphelps]

actualy I bought two yesterday at home depot. 60 watt equiv, dimable 19.00 each, and I am very impressed with them. I tried dimmable CFLs but they suck and dim at different rates so I took them back.

house hold LEDs are dropping in price quite quickly now that there is more compatition. but the bigger thing we should worry about here is the mercury in CFLs. I am slowly changing out all my cfl's to LED now that there are good options in a reasonable price now.

Steve
That's nice but personally don't really believe it as HD didn't have much at all for 60W equivalents last time I checked, the ones they did have where $40+ and IMO still dimmer than the CF 60W equivalent. However that is my personal opinion but I still would like to see a link to the 60W for $19 cause maybe I missed something last time. Still $19 for one light bulb is a decent amount, really it's not going to save you money.

For the price difference, I'll take a chance with mercury poisoning:loco:

[martinmcnally]

um.. thats a handy way to figure out how many gallons your tank is now how many LEDs you need. LEDs are based on coverage only so how many would you need to evenly cover a surface area not a volume.

Steve

I would disagree with that completely. As the guy with the 2 1/2 foot tall tank needs way more LEDs per square inch than a 6 inch deep nano tank.

You calculate what heatsinks you need based on the surface area but LED density is most definitely determined by volume.

[martinmcnally]

You divide cubic inches by 231 to get gallons not 324. But I agree that might not be the best way to decide on the amount of LEDs, kind of similar to the 5W per gallon deal.

As far as I know you need to be in the range of one LED for each 10-15 square inches. So for example take your tank foot print to be 48"x24", that's 1152sq" meaning you'll want to aim for a range within 76 to 115 LEDs, give or take. No deciding on a final number will depend on your tank height and coral requirements. For something average say 24" tall and mixed reef with SPS you'd probably aim right in the middle of that range.

Correct I wasn't finding the gallons. We came up with the 324 figure based on some test tanks I have here to calculate an approximate recommended 3W LEDs per tank size. That formula would give you 86 LEDs for that tank size you mentioned. You are right though you then use that number and go up or down based on what your light requirements are.

[StirCrazy]

You divide cubic inches by 231 to get gallons not 324.



haha thats right ... dislexia is wonderfull, guess I should finnish my coffee before I start reading

Steve

[StirCrazy]

I would disagree with that completely. As the guy with the 2 1/2 foot tall tank needs way more LEDs per square inch than a 6 inch deep nano tank.

You calculate what heatsinks you need based on the surface area but LED density is most definitely determined by volume.


actualy no.. the spacing of your LEDs depends on the lense your going to use on it. so in a very round about way yes the depth of the tank and your PAR requirments at the depth will determin the lense. then the combanation of the lense you use and the hight of the fixture above the surfface to give you even blending of the blue and white will give you the spacing of the LEDs. then the physical surface area will give you how many you need to use at that spacing.

now as for heat sinks, nothing to do with the surface area, but rather with the amount of watts dispersed per square inch. using a 3 watt LED on a star you want a heat sink that will disperce a min of 3watt / sq in I see most are up around the 6watt/sq in, and you can use air movment to increase this value.

if I use your fourmula it tells me I need 20 LEDs for my 30 gal tank, where from mapping my tank and projecting PAR values I know I need 36 to 48 LEDs (calculation was actualy 42) I can get away with 36 but might go 48 as I can get a kit with that number already. so your formula would have probably been find in my tank with no optics and low to med light corals, but not for a pure SPS tank with high light corals at all levels in the tank.

so I guess if it is bassed of one optic choice and now requirement for a specific par level at the bottom of the tank it would work..

Steve

[ReefOcean]

You divide cubic inches by 231 to get gallons not 324. But I agree that might not be the best way to decide on the amount of LEDs, kind of similar to the 5W per gallon deal.

As far as I know you need to be in the range of one LED for each 10-15 square inches. So for example take your tank foot print to be 48"x24", that's 1152sq" meaning you'll want to aim for a range within 76 to 115 LEDs, give or take. Now deciding on a final number will depend on your tank height and coral requirements. For something average say 24" tall and mixed reef with SPS you'd probably aim right in the middle of that range.

yes

The degree of optics also impact the coverage significantly.

Also, you can save on LEDs depending on where you place your coral. If you keep all your sps in the middle, you dont need a large density of LEDs at the ends of the tank.

l l l l ll ll llllllll ll ll l l l l l

[ReefOcean]

now as for heat sinks, nothing to do with the surface area, but rather with the amount of watts dispersed per square inch. using a 3 watt LED on a star you want a heat sink that will disperce a min of 3watt / sq in I see most are up around the 6watt/sq in, and you can use air movment to increase this value.



Cree Leds are all over the map now for lumens. Some are 106, some are 230, some are 350. All are considered "3 watt". You can save money and get 3-ups. which I would cosider as 1 Led. So really, the amount you need depends entirely on the emitter you are using.

[KevinK]

are there more pictures, I sea lot of text

[mseepman]

I'm down here at MACNA right now and EVERYTHING is LED. Even T5 barely has any representation. The new Ecotech Radion was nice (see for yourself as their site is up to date with it) as was the new Maxspec. More LED vendors now than you can believe.

Kevin, nice job. Would love to see the complete build on this.

[Madreefer]

I picked up some AI Sols a few weeks ago. What you guys think? Sorry lottsa pics. I dont have a journal so i'll use this thread. Hows those frags look Wes?

Settings are
White 43%
Blue 50%
Royal Blue 55%

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111008.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111004.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111006.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111009.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111019.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111010.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111012.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111014.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/LEDs/LED111111017.jpg

[mseepman]

Looks pretty darn good. wish my tank looked that nice

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Beautiful tank but are the lights that dim or is it just the camera?

[Rice Reef]

Where did you get your AI Sol LEDs?

[mseepman]

Beautiful tank but are the lights that dim or is it just the camera?

He indicated above that he was running the lights at less than 50% brightness. I think that's why it appears somewhat dim.

[Madreefer]

The lights are actually brighter than the pics even though they are only at 43%. There is 4 of the fixtures over my tank. I started them out at 30% 'cause I read that alot of guys are bleaching their corals out when putting LEDs on for the first time. I bought the lights form Oceans Aquatics, the lights are not on their website so you'll have to phone them. They are a Canreef sponsor.

[kien]

How about some updates? :-)

[Aquattro]

How about some updates? :-)

Nah, bored with LEDs :)

[jorjef]

Did a hear? There's a great experiment going on one post over. Things are getting taken up a notch, or was it down a notch? anyways stand by....fun is sure to follow.

[Coral Hoarder]

http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t602/scott-tang/fish%20stuff/IMG_20130921_103830_zps315f04d5.jpg (http://s1316.photobucket.com/user/scott-tang/media/fish%20stuff/IMG_20130921_103830_zps315f04d5.jpg.html)

29 bio lps and softie system

[noirsphynx]

Running 3 x Kessil A150w's on a 96" x 16" x 16".
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/noirsphynx/DSC_0101_zps8a775119.jpg (http://s611.photobucket.com/user/noirsphynx/media/DSC_0101_zps8a775119.jpg.html)
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/noirsphynx/DSC_0102_zpsd9b00353.jpg (http://s611.photobucket.com/user/noirsphynx/media/DSC_0102_zpsd9b00353.jpg.html)
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/noirsphynx/DSC_0103_zps56f7e732.jpg (http://s611.photobucket.com/user/noirsphynx/media/DSC_0103_zps56f7e732.jpg.html)
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/noirsphynx/DSC_0104_zpse29f114c.jpg (http://s611.photobucket.com/user/noirsphynx/media/DSC_0104_zpse29f114c.jpg.html)
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/noirsphynx/DSC_0032_zpsdf9dee61.jpg (http://s611.photobucket.com/user/noirsphynx/media/DSC_0032_zpsdf9dee61.jpg.html)
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/noirsphynx/DSC_0026_zpsfe80bdaf.jpg (http://s611.photobucket.com/user/noirsphynx/media/DSC_0026_zpsfe80bdaf.jpg.html)
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt191/noirsphynx/DSC_0030_zps798ef261.jpg (http://s611.photobucket.com/user/noirsphynx/media/DSC_0030_zps798ef261.jpg.html)

[Madreefer]

Sorry about the Iphone pics. As soon as I figure out how to get a pic that doesnt look cartooinsh on my camera i'll post better pics.
Running 2 AI Sol Blues and 2 Hydras.
Really like the new Hydras and the wireless controllor is much better than the original one.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/photo-1.jpg (http://s255.photobucket.com/user/gulflube/media/photo-1.jpg.html)

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/photo1.jpg (http://s255.photobucket.com/user/gulflube/media/photo1.jpg.html)

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh135/gulflube/photo3.jpg (http://s255.photobucket.com/user/gulflube/media/photo3.jpg.html)

[kien]

Very nice! Now that's what I'm talkin' about. I know there are a lot of LED people that are quite happy with their setups so it's nice to see them. This is in fact what this thread was for :-). And you guys definitely prove that you can have a nice LED Mixed Reef.

[Madreefer]

Yes LEDs can grow it all. Any tips on how to get a good pic so it does'nt have the cartoon look? With just the basic point and shoot cameras.

[spit.fire]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a171/tyty_220/57E4E2A5-93F6-471A-992E-0A162A1C9451-127-00000001B8CB94DE_zps1e14e517.jpg

Maxspect razor 120w at 100%


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[Dez]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/23/utujager.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/23/eresusup.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/23/y5usatep.jpg

LEDs for over 2.5 years. AI Sol Blues plus DIY LEDs.

[Dearth]

The scary thing most people is twofold when it comes to LED lighting first off is the cost a good set of lights will definitely hurt the pocketbook (including DIY lighting)and secondly having powerful enough LEDs to reach the bottom of deeper tanks and having the correct colour spectrum to promote growth and colour.

Once I save up the coinage I will be switching to LEDs on my big tank but that will be awhile in coming.

[kien]

Yes LEDs can grow it all. Any tips on how to get a good pic so it does'nt have the cartoon look? With just the basic point and shoot cameras.

That's the trick really, I find taking pics with the point and shoot problematic, even for non LED tanks. Throw in LEDs and the point and shoots really struggle. That is unless you can get a point and shoot that allows you full manual control like Canon's G series (Nikon has an equivalent but I'm not sure what it's called).

The scary thing most people is twofold when it comes to LED lighting first off is the cost a good set of lights will definitely hurt the pocketbook (including DIY lighting)and secondly having powerful enough LEDs to reach the bottom of deeper tanks and having the correct colour spectrum to promote growth and colour.

Once I save up the coinage I will be switching to LEDs on my big tank but that will be awhile in coming.

Cost of entry is definitely high, but there are good LED units that are quite reasonably priced. For example, you can get an AI Sol unit for roughly $400. In my mind that's pretty reasonable. Of course you can easily go up in cost from there to the Mitras at $1200 (retail) per unit. Not everyone needs a $1200 Mitras though. There are plenty of people (as we've seen in this thread) doing quite well with their $400 AI Sols :-)

The issue of having "powerful enough LEDs to reach the bottom of deeper tanks" is an interesting one and one that still confuses me a bit. Whenever I hear of someone running LEDs I typically hear of them having to throttle down their LED lights as low as 50%. Even at those levels they can still easily burn their corals. As for the correct colour spectrum, I don't know if there is a unit that really has the wrong colour spectrum. I've seen beautiful tanks growing SPS with everything from cheap eBay LEDs, to DIY LEDs, to AI Sols, Radeons, Mitras. I've seen nice tanks from pretty much ALL the LED variations now. This someone leads me to conclude that if a tank is struggling with colour or growth that it's not necessarily the light causing the issue. It is easy to blame the light though because it is something that's easy to change, unlike other factors like water chemistry and husbandry.

[Dearth]

I believe the stigma of deep water lighting is a hold over from when LEDs first came out and even though LEDs have been out for several years now you still meet a lot of people who have the doubts that the lights can do as advertised so live with the idea LEDs will not light the bottom of the tank sufficiently even with evidence to the contrary. Then most LFS don't actually carry the good quality lights which enforces in people's minds their rational behind not enough lighting. As a guy who started out in fresh water where lighting was not critical component of the system I count myself as fortunate when I started off in SW I started off with LEDs and don't have the same prejudices as others who used MH and T5s before LEDs came out.

[nrosdal]

Here is a video from a customer who put a couple LEDs above his 6 foot 130G tank.

http://youtu.be/TRh1jUp_r7I

[Madreefer]

The scary thing most people is twofold when it comes to LED lighting first off is the cost a good set of lights will definitely hurt the pocketbook (including DIY lighting)and secondly having powerful enough LEDs to reach the bottom of deeper tanks and having the correct colour spectrum to promote growth and colour.

Once I save up the coinage I will be switching to LEDs on my big tank but that will be awhile in coming.

My tank is 30" deep. I would consider that as being a deep tank. I grow SPS quite well on the sandbed. I cannot have any chalice nor other LPS directly under them as they will bleach. I do run at 100% for a couple of hours each day though. So the info you are reading is not correct.

[sphelps]

Cost of entry is definitely high, but there are good LED units that are quite reasonably priced. For example, you can get an AI Sol unit for roughly $400. In my mind that's pretty reasonable. Of course you can easily go up in cost from there to the Mitras at $1200 (retail) per unit. Not everyone needs a $1200 Mitras though. There are plenty of people (as we've seen in this thread) doing quite well with their $400 AI Sols :-)


Keep in mind you'll need 2 sols for 1 Mitra so really comparing $800 to $1200 which isn't as big of a gap. Then when you compare features like built in controller, full spectrum and so on you may conclude the Mitra is also pretty reasonable :biggrin:

There are lower cost units that get the job done but ultimately you're getting what you paid for. Like the D120s, I had to open the fixture up to change the power cord orientation. Doing so I discovered it's basically just a thin aluminium plate with LEDs directly mounted to that, wired to two basic power supplies with a dimmer and three noisy cheap fans. Pretty obvious why they are so cheap but they do work and whatever I put under them seems to do really well but it's a shallow tank so the output is really low, not sure I'd trust the cooling capabilities at full power.

[kien]

Keep in mind you'll need 2 sols for 1 Mitra so really comparing $800 to $1200 which isn't as big of a gap. Then when you compare features like built in controller, full spectrum and so on you may conclude the Mitra is also pretty reasonable :biggrin:

Yes, it's definitely reasonable if you need all of those features. Not everyone needs all those bells and whistles though. As demonstrated in this thread, there are lots of nice tanks running LED lights without any controllers or full spectrum. I'm not about to tell those people that they need more expensive Mitras :-)

And yes, if you want the same output as a Mitras, then you will have to add additional (cheaper units). But then again, not everyone needs the kind of output that the Mitras provides. There are people dialing down the output of LED units that have less maximum output than the Mitras. :biggrin:

[sphelps]

Yes, it's definitely reasonable if you need all of those features. Not everyone needs all those bells and whistles though. As demonstrated in this thread, there are lots of nice tanks running LED lights without any controllers or full spectrum. I'm not about to tell those people that they need more expensive Mitras :-)

And yes, if you want the same output as a Mitras, then you will have to add additional (cheaper units). But then again, not everyone needs the kind of output that the Mitras provides. There are people dialing down the output of LED units that have less maximum output than the Mitras. :biggrin:

More of a spread issue than output relating to using multiple units. For example if you need to cover 36x36" you really can't use 1 sol regardless how low your light demands are, unless you hang it unpractically high that is.

[sphelps]

A work in progress but my latest LED tank, seems fit to post it here seeing it's a play on my old LED fluval edge I previously posted :biggrin:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a174/sphelps/20130923.jpg

[dino]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/25/ja8ynepu.jpg

[lemon604]

I have this 30 gal with LED since 2008. I can only grow soft corals.

[dino]

well may I ask what kind

[rhody605]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/03/2y5a2y3a.jpg

Finally got all the glass clean. So it's somewhat presentable now. Lol

[The Guy]

This is how I set up my AI's @ 12" above the water and still reaches to the bottom with no problem, Whites, blues and royal blues can't remember what % they were set at, but were nowhere full power. I was just on a learning curve with them. Best lights I've ever had, no problems so far.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee386/clownlover1/001-10.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/clownlover1/media/001-10.jpg.html)

[Dez]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/gu7ybu6a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/a5ehuqaj.jpg

[tang daddy]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/gu7ybu6a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/a5ehuqaj.jpg

That clam is monster!

[AchillesTangBeauty]

Ahttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/9egetade.jpg


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[AchillesTangBeauty]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/ajasaga4.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/2a4ete9e.jpg


Sent from my iPhone 5s using Tapatalk

[Tyson]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/08/e4evuvad.jpg

Here's mine.


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[Tyson]

G2's


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[kien]

totally forgot about this thread! Here's my LED tank!

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/BRLED_20131218_005_zps90675ac1.jpg

[Phil]

totally forgot about this thread! Here's my LED tank!

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af144/muzanji/BRLED_20131218_005_zps90675ac1.jpg

I vote this tank for led tank of the year

[FishingGoalie]

ATI Hybrid

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/fishingoalie/_1010014_zps8872c285.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/fishingoalie/media/_1010014_zps8872c285.jpg.html)

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/fishingoalie/P1010044_zps898823cc.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/fishingoalie/media/P1010044_zps898823cc.jpg.html)

[Rice Reef]

ATI Hybrid

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/fishingoalie/_1010014_zps8872c285.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/fishingoalie/media/_1010014_zps8872c285.jpg.html)

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/fishingoalie/P1010044_zps898823cc.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/fishingoalie/media/P1010044_zps898823cc.jpg.html)

Nice lights! Which one did you go with? Is that the 36 or 48.

[FishingGoalie]

Nice lights! Which one did you go with? Is that the 36 or 48.

The 8 bulb 48"

[Rice Reef]

The 8 bulb 48"

Nice! Hope you can do a review on your lights down the road!

[Tyson]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/27/8ahe7yba.jpg

G2's


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[AchillesTangBeauty]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/27/esejejuj.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/27/ge9yjy9a.jpg

My original post has disappeared?!

Anyways - 5 Gen3 Radions.


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[Slyguy00]

that is baller!

[AchillesTangBeauty]

Haha thanks! We have a total of 9 Radions on 2 tanks & a fuge in this house lol.


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[AchillesTangBeauty]

^ Maybe a little overkill considering they never exceed 35% - but it looks rad!


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[The Guy]

2 AI sol blues on my 90 gallon
not the best picture quality I used my phone camera without a tripod LOL!
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee386/clownlover1/010_zps1c26966a.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/clownlover1/media/010_zps1c26966a.jpg.html)
evening simulation at sundown on both these pictures
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee386/clownlover1/011_zps370b71d7.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/clownlover1/media/011_zps370b71d7.jpg.html)
my new tile star (slang name)
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee386/clownlover1/newstarfish001_zps3e2564b7.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/clownlover1/media/newstarfish001_zps3e2564b7.jpg.html)

[NIVLEM09]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/27/esejejuj.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/27/ge9yjy9a.jpg

My original post has disappeared?!

Anyways - 5 Gen3 Radions.


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Dammmmmmnnnnnnnn....that's a beauty!!!!

[AchillesTangBeauty]

Dammmmmmnnnnnnnn....that's a beauty!!!!


THANKS!!


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[Vancouver Reefer]

Here is my 75 gallon. I built a DIY array using a 72 led kit from Aquastyle Online. It comprises 33 Royal Blue, 3 UV on on channel and then 18 10K cool white and 18 6500K on the second channel. 60 degree optics.

The LEDs are fully dimmable by my Arduino based controller.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/8uzequja.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/qygune3y.jpg

My next array will feature more channels with a broader array of led colour to give more controllability over the spectrum.

In the photo I have the spot light effect because I had just fed some Cyclopeeze. Once it clears the spot light effect disappears completely.

[AchillesTangBeauty]

^ You're colouring, whether you can see it or not.. Is not even! The lights look great, you just need it to be more even! Your LED's should cover every square MM equally throughout your tank!

Nice build though - props

[Vancouver Reefer]

hahaha that picture really is interesting now you mention it. I had just fed cyclopeze so it really gives the spot light effect. In normal conditions you dont see any spotlighting.

However the array is laid out as even as it could be. Its blue,white,blue,white down the length of each rail, and each rail is staggered. I think the gaps are from the 3 UV led's i have in the rails. You can see them in the array, as they are the ones without any optics.

The only time i see colour hotspots, is if the fish swim right at the surface, then they change colour a little. The rocks and sand have a nice blend. Again the photo does not quite show the reality.

More spectrum is needed though. Next build ;)

[The Guy]

:wave:Interesting user name, when your in Kenora Ontario.
I just noticed it says your using no optics, so I presume the led's are looking straight down? Can you add some wider lens optics to the led's? Your tank looks really nice, a little overlap would probably make the spot lighting effect go away. My 2cents worth.

[Vancouver Reefer]

I used to live in Vancouver before moving to Ontario a couple of years back.

I do have 60 degree optics on all but the three UV leds. Ill have to take another photo without the food in the water. When the water is clear you cannot tell what type of lighting is used. There are no gaps or spotlighting.

My bad for using a bad photo :D

[cale262]

Crappy iPhone pic... new display setup in my living room started up Feb 2014. 48x24x24 DT with 4x Radions and basement sump system.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg293/cale262/2014%20transplant/IMG_0780_zpsf0e78324.jpg

[AchillesTangBeauty]

I used to live in Vancouver before moving to Ontario a couple of years back.

I do have 60 degree optics on all but the three UV leds. Ill have to take another photo without the food in the water. When the water is clear you cannot tell what type of lighting is used. There are no gaps or spotlighting.

My bad for using a bad photo :D


Fair enough.. However, you're still not getting the 100% coverage you need. If you could get some sort of TIR lens for your lights, you'd be mint.


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[Tn23]

Here's mine. DIY leds from rapidled.
Works pretty well and getting decent growth.

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