New 160g Instant Ocean buckets [Archive] - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

UnderWorldAquatics

12-23-2003, 05:31 PM

everyone out west whines unceasingly about salt prices, salt is being sold at far less than its suggested retail price, this is kinda ****ing of salt manufactures that feel the quality of its product is being poorly represented by its price. try buying salt back east, expect to pay about double what your used to. at 89.99 retail salt is dirt cheap, at 49.99 they are probably not even breaking even, even if they are buying by the truckload. its nice for you that some of the big stores move so much volume and can afford to take a loss on a product to get people in the doors, but the smaller guys that dont move the huge volume are suffering cuz they cant take such a loss, they end up folding eventually, everyone likes a good deal, including me, but its sad when most people in this hobby will see a sale price, or already low price, and whine and ask for a deal, these are usually the same people that complain unceasingly about poor quality livestock. if they are not making decent return on their products, they cant afford to keep quality livestock, we need to quit perpetuating the problem, dig a little deeper and pay a reasonable price for what we are buying. take a min and think about the work that goes into getting livestock into your tank, livestock is so cheap its almost free....
Im done my little rant now....lol

StirCrazy

12-23-2003, 06:02 PM

everyone out west whines unceasingly about salt prices, salt is being sold at far less than its suggested retail price, this is kinda ****ing of salt manufactures that feel the quality of its product is being poorly represented by its price.

Im done my little rant now....lol

so concidering it is even cheaper in the US I guess they are going to be so mad they are going to close there businesses :rolleyes:

the Price does reflect what people are willing to pay and it doesent matter what the big companies think as if people won't pay 89.00 for a bucket they won't sell any. Remember when it says "Sugested manufactures price" it is only a sugestion not a requirment, as long as the manufacture gets it's 40.00 per bucket (just a fictisious price for simplicity) they don't care how much there retailer sells it for. the only time you will see price setting is in a monopoly type situation.

Steve

Samw

12-23-2003, 06:05 PM

Sorry that our clowning around was perceived as whining.

I bet if everyone had to dig deeper to run a reef tank, there would be less pockets to dig and stores would go out of business because reefkeepers simply quit the hobby. The reason why more people are getting into reefing now is because prices keep coming down. This can mean more business to the stores when lower prices attract new customers. Lower prices isn't always a bad thing for the industry or store if the total revenue and profit increases because of it. The market isn't saturated yet. Lots of freshwater hobbiests out there waiting to convert or start up a marine tank.

Try selling computers. I heard that the profit on systems is like 2-3%.

UnderWorldAquatics

12-23-2003, 08:10 PM

I guess what Im trying to get at is that the "salt wars" (see gas wars) are getting ridiculous, people will buy salt at 64.99 which is more than reasonable, selling it for your cost or below your cost to fight for customers is getting old, reefers have never had it so good, I just hate it when you see hobbiests complaining about stores selling salt for a reasonable price, when its the lowest price they can afford to sell it for. This isnt about my business incase you are wondering, I dont sell salt. My point is that if you dont want to have any complaints about livestock and inventory, you cant be complaining about price, cuz when you complain about price and they feel they have to lower their prices, their margins go way down and they cant afford to keep things the way they were...
If I lived in the states and was to mailorder salt, which is the cheapest way to get it in the usa as far as I know, I would be paying between $66 and $75 USD before any local taxes, thats the cheapest way they can get it to their door. that is more than we pay for sure! Sure it says $34.99 on their site but wait till it gets to you... the west coast of bc has the lowest salt prices in north america to my knowledge,
I just dont think reefers out west know how good they have it...

Jack

12-23-2003, 08:17 PM

I don't mind the price of the 200g pail but if the bucket size gets drastically smaller(by 40g) and the price doesn't budge... that ain't right.

Salt isn't where LFS make thier money.

And honestly who cares about the free T-Shirts and plastic plants that they try and kiss your butt with. Although the MiniJet's were cool. :smile:

Mak

12-23-2003, 08:40 PM

I say, keep the damn shirt and give me the rest of my salt!!! :mrgreen: :lol: ...but I do like Christy's idea for the shirt :mrgreen: :squarewi:

Aquattro

12-23-2003, 08:59 PM

I say, keep the damn shirt and give me the rest of my salt!!! :mrgreen:

I agree. I have enough shirts already. :razz:

butters88

12-23-2003, 09:02 PM

If only I could trade my T-shirts in for salt :lol: :lol: :lol: :exclaim: :mrgreen:

Samw

12-23-2003, 09:04 PM

I just dont think reefers out west know how good they have it...

The flip side is, I don't think reefers know how bad they have it out in the East. Hehe. :lol:

Aquattro

12-23-2003, 09:07 PM

I just dont think reefers out west know how good they have it...

The flip side is, I don't think reefers know how bad they have it out in the East. Hehe. :lol:

Sam, good point ! :razz:

Jack

12-23-2003, 10:06 PM

Does J&L have the new buckets in yet? I haven't been there in a week. :rolleyes: :smile:

christyf5

12-23-2003, 10:06 PM

A week?!?! Jeez Jack, you're slippin'! :wink:

Jack

12-23-2003, 10:20 PM

:redface:

psuedo

12-23-2003, 10:31 PM

I guess it must really suck for all those guys in the east. More $ for salt. I guess you make up for it with your on average lower standard of living and lower costs of housing though.

Samw

12-24-2003, 03:42 AM

I agree. I have enough shirts already. :razz:

I don't. Most of my wardrobe comes from freebies so I can always use more. That way, I can save my money and buy corals. Let's see, I have several free shirts from work, free shirts from About.com, free shirt from 3COM, free shirt from Reefs.org, free shirt from Mitsubishi, free shirt from Supra (old modem maker), free shirt from Volleyball, free shirt from Softball, free shirt from Honeywell...

:biggrin:

Aquattro

12-24-2003, 04:13 AM

I agree. I have enough shirts already. :razz:

I don't. Most of my wardrobe comes from freebies so I can always use more. That way, I can save my money and buy corals. Let's see, I have several free shirts from work, free shirts from About.com, free shirt from 3COM, free shirt from Reefs.org, free shirt from Mitsubishi, free shirt from Supra (old modem maker), free shirt from Honeywell...

:biggrin:

I have one from Compaq...maybe I should donate it to your collection!!

LostMind

12-24-2003, 04:27 AM

Akamai, netsol, amd, intel, etc etc etc ;)

Justin

12-24-2003, 05:59 AM

Steve,

I should point out that manufacturers infact do care about the prices retailers sell thier product for. If certain stores lower prices too far, the manufacturer will step in. Retailers slashing prices hard is not in the manufacturers best interest. Why? If stores don't make money on a product, they stop carrying it. Not in the manufacturers best interest.

If certain retailers upset the market with slashed prices, the manufacturers will step in and ask them to raise the price appropriately. It has happened and if you would care for an example, pm me.

I should point out, from a business perspective, no one should lower prices on salt, or any essential item for that matter. People need it, they have to buy it, so they will pay what it costs. If no one slashed the prices on essential items, retailers would make thier money on the essentials, which would bring down the cost of extra equiptment we all know costs too much. It would also translate into retailers being more willing to risk some bucks bringing in shipments from further abraod, which would increase the product and livestock availabilities. See europe for a CLEAR example of this. Why do you think they have acess to sooo much more then us? Simple, they are willing to pay for it.

It might feel good now to get a super deal, but in the end, your only hurting yourself.

Personally, I would rather pay 10X the cost for something I want from a store that is responsible to the hobby, rather then a cost slashing store with poor service that won't be in business in a year and only cares about making a buck.

I anxiously await the aquarium hobby in north america moving towards the status it has in europe as the majority hobbiests attitude matures.

UnderWorldAquatics

12-24-2003, 06:12 AM

your better with words than I...

what he said^

StirCrazy

12-24-2003, 07:01 AM

I know all about that but the fact is they haven't steped in and stopped J&L so they are not at that point yet.. and thats also what I was hinting at.. if a manufactur feels a product is being sold to cheep and is impacting on there outer retailers they will step in and ask for them to step in line.. if they don't they will cut off the supply to that black sheep retailer.. I have seen it done befor and I have personaly been involved in a instance from the distrubitors side.

The problem is when you think about it salt is realy not a fast mover. if you raise the price people stop doing water changes. so in the past salt has been over priced to the point where a lot of people were not doing water changes, heck at 120.00/bucket I was even hesatant but at 50.00/bucket its business as normal.

I digress what I was getting at is because it was so expensive people were not doing as many water changes and it droped the sales dramaticly, so companies had salt sitting around colecting dust.

so the business ask them selves how can we increase salt sales. lower the price and convinve people to do more frequent water changes after all if we sell 10 a month at 89.00/bucket and make 50 profit we make 500/month off salt sales, but if we charge 49.00/bucket and sell 50 buckets/month, we get a price break at 20 and another at 40 so we make 1000/month off salt sales, plus we made it a lot cheeper to start up a tank so more people can start which will have a spin off on live stock and other equipment sold. also if they are doing frequent water changes they will be back to the store to buy more salt and impulse buying will kick in while they are here.

see what I am getting at.
If they were selling salt to cheap out here then IO would have setpped in by now, this price has been there for almost a year, and when I was in the US I saw 200 gal IO for 29.95US so less than 40.00 CDN

Steve

Aquattro

12-24-2003, 07:03 AM

Steve, well said.

Justin

12-24-2003, 09:18 AM

Just because certain retailers have IO at that price, does not mean the manufacturers like it or condone it, or even know where this store is getting thier salt, because I garuntee you it is not directly from them. Garunteed. PM me if you want details.

If people want to be sucessfull in keeping a SW tank, they HAVE to do the required maitnence for thier system. If that includes water changes, then so be it. There is no way to avoid it. If people are worried about a $40 difference in a bucket of salt, they are not considering the total cost of running the system. What is $40 or even $400 in the big scheme of things? $40 is a DROP in the bucket. If $40 is a big issue for them, they are in the wrong hobby IMO.

I understand the point you are making, but it is not accurate. Belive me I see it everyday. There are no add-on sales due to the decrease in salt price. No one comes in for salt that was not going to buy it anyways, just because it is cheaper. I will say it again, people hate water changes. In our store, salt sales have not been any higher despite the fact the prices have been lower then ever as of late. We had 200G IO buckets for $38.88 and didn't sell more then any other week. People hate water changes no matter how cheap the salt is. From what I see, salt sales are very stable despite severe price swings.

Never in all my years have I every heard more then one person ask how much salt costs when considering the cost of a system. His system is around 4000G and if you consider a 10% water change monthly is 400G, that would be something to consider. However, salt costs nothing in the scheme of things. He even conceded this once we layed out how much the system would cost to build.

The smart thing to do would be to support the good stores, let them make some money. The money goes back into the store, which comes right back to the customers in increased quality and added service and availability.

Did you ever consider the fact the famous aquarium stores you hear about that are thousands of miles away from you must have an impecable store to garner this much respect? Ever once hear someone say how cheap those stores prices are? No, because thier prices are not the lowest. They have lots of stock, clean stores, great service and a wide selection. This costs the store money, and that means they have to make money. This means they need to profit, and that means they won't have the best prices in town.

Rock bottom prices to not bring more long term stable hobbiests into the hobby. If anything it brings the people who's tanks will be in the classifieds in 6 months and killed thier tanks inhabitants many times. Low prices do not carry a strong sence of responsability. They only make the item more spontainious and "throw-away". Am I the only one other then UnderWorldAquatics (Kyle?) that sees the importance of responsable price structuring and the advancement of the hobby??

EmilyB

12-24-2003, 10:59 AM

if you raise the price people stop doing water changes

:eek: Now, that is ridiculous. Unless those people were reluctant to do the necessary maintenance in the first place.

I'd get out out the hobby if I couldn't afford to do water changes.
:rolleyes:

MitchM

12-24-2003, 11:57 AM

... Am I the only one other then UnderWorldAquatics (Kyle?) that sees the importance of responsable price structuring and the advancement of the hobby??

Absolutely not!
Make this hobby too cheap, and you'll see people getting into it for the wrong reasons, like "it'll make a pretty piece of furniture". If you want what's best for your animals, price would not be your first consideration. High quality equipment, great customer service and ethical treatment of the animals should be the priorities.
A good aquarium store will look after good customers, both in service AND in pricing. You're not a good customer if you always want the lowest price. The lowest prices can always be found at stores that are going out of business, and they're going out of business because they're not making any money.
I imagine it's pretty frustrating for an LFS to put in HOURS of education to a person looking to get into the hobby, only to have the person then turn around and buy the product elsewhere, first because of price, and the store that got the sale had to do no work for it. (eg. mail order)
Support your LFS, and they'll support you.

Mitch

MitchM

12-24-2003, 12:37 PM

...also if they are doing frequent water changes they will be back to the store to buy more salt and impulse buying will kick in while they are here.

see what I am getting at....

With all due respect Steve, I don't think that impulse buying is the sign of a responsible reefkeeper, and that will only result in the store carrying more junk IMO that is associated with poor purchase decisions, which attracts poorly informed and ultimately unsuccesful aquarists.
While impulse buying is a way for businesses to make a profit, I think that it should apply to gas stations that carry chocolate bars.
Using salt (or any other product for that matter) as a lost leader does not attract responsible reefkeepers.
Carrying top notch products, livestock and service does.

IMO, of course.

Mitch

Justin

12-24-2003, 04:24 PM

I imagine it's pretty frustrating for an LFS to put in HOURS of education to a person looking to get into the hobby, only to have the person then turn around and buy the product elsewhere, first because of price, and the store that got the sale had to do no work for it. (eg. mail order)
Support your LFS, and they'll support you.

Mitch

Beyond frustrating, excellent point Mitch.

christyf5

12-24-2003, 04:25 PM

molson canadian, molson canadian, molson canadian :razz:

UnderWorldAquatics

12-24-2003, 04:32 PM

Just because certain retailers have IO at that price, does not mean the manufacturers like it or condone it, or even know where this store is getting thier salt, because I garuntee you it is not directly from them. Garunteed. PM me if you want details.

Are we talking about a certain very large warehouse, that had a very large quantity of salt, that was going out of business, that sold huge quantities of salt for pennies, creating the cheap salt influx that we see right now in the west coast??? I have personally talked to some of the head honchos in the salt industry, they are not pleased... they feel that these silly low prices degrade their product.

MitchM

12-24-2003, 04:32 PM

molson canadian, molson canadian, molson canadian :razz:

We can see Christy has started celebrating already.......lol

Mitch

sumpfinfishe

12-24-2003, 04:41 PM

Well I would buy I/O even if it was selling for a lot more money.
This is a product that I have trusted for over 6 years, and I'm happy with it's results :biggrin:

160gl pail you say!, well a new pail should still last me about 32 water changes, two and a half years or when the t-shirt is falling off my back:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :razz:

christyf5

12-24-2003, 04:44 PM

dang how did this get to 3 pages already?? I thought I put that on page 2! :wink:

LostMind

12-24-2003, 05:56 PM

business decisions are made daily - some work, some don't.

You have the most profitable retailer in the world, walmart, pushing cheap product for a cheap price. You can't say the high volume, low margin business model doesnt work.

Raising the price of salt is not going to lower the cost of an expensive skimmer made from everyday pvc and acrylic (why does a euroreef cost $600 for $40 worth of plastic and 3 hours labour? Because people will pay for it), raising the price of salt is not going to result in healthy or more diversified livestock being brought in to fish stores and raising the price of salt is not going to change the world.

This is a pretty silly, 3 page argument :)

If salt is cheap now, I will enjoy the price break, because they come so rarely in this hobby. If, in the future, a salt manufacturer does indeed feel their product is being sold too cheaply and steps in to enforce a minimum selling price for salt that is higher then what I currently pay, then I will pay more - and so will everyone who wants salt. Personally, I doubt it will happen, as the salt was originally purchased by the retailers/wholesalers and the salt manufacturer has already made their profit, they dont care if the product is then sold at a loss - their business isnt directly hurt by the LFS losing a few bucks on a product

Bringing responsibility and ethics as an aquarist into the discussion is uncalled for. It just twists your arguments and makes it look like you are all attacking each other on a personal level.

If you want to talk about ethics, talk about the stores that say you can start a saltwater tank for a couple hundred bucks and keep a dozen fish and a dozen corals plus 3 anemones in a 20 gallon tank - which I have personally seen happen at 3 stores (all slightly different scenarios, but you get the point).

And finally, impulse buying that algae scrubber, fishnet or PH monitor does not make one an irresponsible aquarist.

Justin

12-24-2003, 06:39 PM

Lostmind,

I will say that the high volume, low margin model works in some business, but not in an aquarium store. The numbers your talking about from Walmart, I beilive $229 mill last year is FAR beyond what any aquarium store could ever even DREAM about making.

Is raising the salt going to make the Euroreef skimmer (or another product) cheaper? How could you say no?

If a store does not make profit on one item, the mark another up higher. If they don't, they go out of business. If they drop prices on one side, they raise them on another. And of course it would result in more diversified livestock. The store is not going to just be scraping by because of low margins, and order from new suppliers or try new things. They are going to order thier bread and butter, not risking already low capital. This is simple.

Manufacturers do care about the price retailers move thier product for. Perhpas read through the last 3 pages of this topic and you will see evidence of that.

You could keep 12 neon gobys, 12 discoma and 3+ condys in a 20 gallon long. Easy.

Do you have any experiance into the business end of this hobby?

Samw

12-24-2003, 07:25 PM

This is all very interesting and totally different from what I would do if I started a store. I would price my items simply based on supply and demand (profit maximization).

If no one wants to buy my salt at my high price causing me to lower the price of salt, I wouldn't automatically raise the price of my other goods. That's because we know from the Law of Demand (downward slope of the demand curve) that artificially raising the price of a good would lower quantity demanded, increase surplus, and reduce profit/revenue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand#Effects_of_being_away_from_the_E quilibrium_Point

This is the generally accepted theory for perfectly competitive markets (ex. not monopolies).

Justin

12-24-2003, 07:42 PM

That does not take into account goods that have a stable demand regardless of price fluxuations, like livestock. People want thier Nemo!

Stores have to profit. It's simple as that. If they have lower prices then everywhere else, and do not provide any reason for people to come into the store, other then price, they will fail. Look at the fierce competition between King Ed's and J&L. One of them is going to lose. King Ed's has been around a LONGGG time, and has a full pet line (dogs, cats, rabbits, birds ect.) backing them. King Ed's could lose money on thier marine end and still make enough on dog supplies to get by. J&L can't. They have to profit in order to survive. There is no way these stores can lose money, they have to pay thier bills like anyone else. If they don't profit on salt, they have to make it up somewhere. Every square foot of that store has to produce X amount of money to keep them in business. Anyone happen to notice any change in livestock, lighting or any other prices at these stores?

Other stores which do not have as low prices are doing growing and doing well despite have higher prices. They provide another reason for customers to come there other then price. No where in North America I have heard about is here a situation like there is in the lower mainland regarding these stores.

Aquattro

12-24-2003, 07:56 PM

This thread has at least reminded me to get some salt...I'm almost out. :rolleyes:

Samw

12-24-2003, 07:57 PM

Yes, the theory takes livestock demand into account. Yes, of course people want their Nemo. But the Law of Demand states that more people will want Nemo at $15 vs $30. That's hard to argue.

I didn't know either of those 2 stores that you mentioned were losing. Do you know for sure this is the case? I thought both stores are profiting.

In all of my years of studies and research, I have not found any theory that says you can make more revenue by artificially raising prices of goods in a perfectly competitive market.

If it is certain that prices are artificially low, then yes of course the businesses are not maximizing their revenue and will have more demand than supply and will eventually raise their prices.

Firms enter the market to make money and exit when they can't. No doubt. If prices are low because there is too much supply (too many pet shops) then having a store lose and exit the market is inevitable.

In those other regions that you point out, prices and demand are high. But that creates a new business opportunity for a new store to enter the market and get a piece of the pie. Eventually, when more competition is created, prices will also go down. Its all part of Business and Economics.

Bartman

12-24-2003, 08:42 PM

I should point out, from a business perspective, no one should lower prices on salt, or any essential item for that matter. People need it, they have to buy it, so they will pay what it costs. If no one slashed the prices on essential items, retailers would make thier money on the essentials, which would bring down the cost of extra equiptment we all know costs too much.

Welcome to free enterprise. The fact is that someone WILL lower the price (salt, computer, TV, car, couch, food, etc) and people may buy because of it. Retailers will employ whatever strategy they believe will give the best combination of profit and/or market share. Every market has discount sellers and premium/quality outlets and there is room for both. I am sure that no retailer likes being undercut by a competitor but they can be assured of 2 things; it will happen and they choose how to respond. Price cutting is not the only business model. It does not make competitors go out of business. Competition is healthy, the retailer who can't compete isn't any better for the market than the discounter may be viewed (by "compete" I don't mean price). Ultimately the customer decides on any retailer's perceived value. No one can artificially set price/value or quality/value standards and think it is good for the market. If the discounter can't make a profit and goes out of business then their business model was wrong. If a retailer believes their premium level of expertise/support/product is worth more and the customer does not then their business model is wrong. If educating customers advances the market (hobby) so that quality is recognized and valued then the premium vendors gain an advantage.

Just my $0.02

LostMind

12-24-2003, 10:15 PM

Justin. I dont want to cause bad blood here, but your arguments fall flat.

Sorry. Logic, common sense and economics betray your points.

Is raising the salt going to make the Euroreef skimmer (or another product) cheaper? How could you say no?

Easy... the price of the euroreef is based on what the market will bear. Not the price of salt or the profit made from sale of salt.

Manufacturers do care about the price retailers move thier product for. Perhpas read through the last 3 pages of this topic and you will see evidence of that.

I did read the thread before I posted. I see no evidence of this. Perhaps if salt prices suddenly went up at the LFS or certain brands of salt were removed from the sales floor, I could MAYBE make an educated guess that the salt manufacturers were ****ed about low prices, but without the salt manufacturer making a public notice about it, I wont know for sure.

You could keep 12 neon gobys, 12 discoma and 3+ condys in a 20 gallon long. Easy.

Smooth dodge. Entirely avoids the thrust of my point. So, with $200 of equip to support this tank, what is the long term health of the tank? Continuous replacement of livestock?

Do you have any experiance into the business end of this hobby?

No. Yet I am a small biz owner. But what does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

Jack

12-24-2003, 10:21 PM

Man, look what I started. Wish I didn't bring it up. :rolleyes:

I just don't want the 160g bucket costing the same as or more than the 200g bucket. Sound fair?

sumpfinfishe

12-25-2003, 12:27 AM

Jack I hear ya- :rolleyes: Maybe I/O are reducing there salt to cut cost so they can use more funding for there quality assurance statement :mrgreen:, as I saw a new add for I/O that states:The perfect solution for creating the ideal environment. So perfect, in fact, they're performance-certified by Marineland labs-your assurance of superior quality, consistency and value.

As for the King Ed's/ J&L's thing, I would rather go shopping for meat at a butcher than at the supermarket- so as long as there quality, supply, service, and price stay fare then I will keep giving J&L's my $$$. Although time in a day doesn't alway's allow us to go to the butchers, so instead we go to the supermarket for price, selection, or convienence. Hopefully J&L's move to go into fresh won't effect there saltwater focus, if it keeps them afloat then there just staying competitive in a crazy-cut-throat buisness world. :exclaim:

just my two-cents,

Jack

12-25-2003, 01:05 AM

Rich, I agree. It will always come down to price no matter what people say.

Maybe Instant Ocean had to change a bunch of quality control issues hence the new lid and smaller buckets. :lol: We can only guess. :rolleyes:

Have a good Christmas guys.

StirCrazy

12-25-2003, 02:17 AM

With all due respect Steve, I don't think that impulse buying is the sign of a responsible reefkeeper, and that will only result in the store carrying more junk IMO that is associated with poor purchase decisions, which attracts poorly informed and ultimately unsuccesful aquarists.

Mitch

Yup...exactly, let me introduce you to 90% of all fish keepers :mrgreen: why do you think if you look in the buy and sell of big cities you see tones of tanks for sale (big and small)

why do you think most LFS still bring in morish idols and flowerpot corals.. these are the majority, and everyone seams to always forget we are the minority.

Steve

StirCrazy

12-25-2003, 02:28 AM

I understand the point you are making, but it is not accurate. Belive me I see it everyday. There are no add-on sales due to the decrease in salt price. No one comes in for salt that was not going to buy it anyways, just because it is cheaper.

sure it does, I know a bunch of people that buy salt when it is cheep.

The smart thing to do would be to support the good stores, let them make some money. The money goes back into the store, which comes right back to the customers in increased quality and added service and availability.

spoken just like a store owner :rolleyes: "please pay me extrodnary prices so I can get rich and retire."

Rock bottom prices to not bring more long term stable hobbiests into the hobby. If anything it brings the people who's tanks will be in the classifieds in 6 months and killed thier tanks inhabitants many times. Low prices do not carry a strong sence of responsability. They only make the item more spontainious and "throw-away". Am I the only one other then UnderWorldAquatics (Kyle?) that sees the importance of responsable price structuring and the advancement of the hobby??

Sorry to inform you buy high prices won't stop flash in the pan hobbiests and classified adds. and I guess you and Kyle both look at it that way because you are ivolved with the industry. either that or you are trying for a hobbiest of the year award.

The fact is 400% mark ups are hiway robery and just plain taking advantage of hobiests by making the hobby sound more important than it is. only 10% of us are responcibe buyser and the sad fact is less than that percentage of LFS are responcible sellers. I don't know any store that won't sell a tank and everything and tell them to come back tomorrow after there salt is mixed to get a few fish. I have even seen the fish sold at the same time as the tank in more places than I care to know.

Steve

Justin

12-25-2003, 02:32 AM

I am not trying to cause bad blood either, but I suppose we will agree to disagree.

There is nothing more I can really say, I work in the aquarium industry and it constantly betrays what I was taught in school. It's a different type of industry, based on hobby. It's all optional, not like food. We all need to eat. We don't all need a fish tank.

I totally understand the point your trying to make, and I understand you think I am wrong. But I will go to work on Boxing day and what I say is based on what I see at work, and what I see is reality, and it's completely opposite to what your saying.

Again I totally understand where your comming from, but they are common rules, they do not apply to this hobby/business/industry.

Consider the livestock issue again. Cost does not impact demand, quote economics till your blue in the face and it still won't change the reality of the situation. Just beacuse a clownfish is cheap, it does not increase it's demand. People cannot buy more just because they are cheap. Thier demand is based on what thier system can tolerate. They buy them if they are $12.88 or three times that, just as fast.

And that system for a couple hundred dollars, buy it used, why would you need to change the rock? It's moot, but I understand you point.

Either way it's christmas, happy holidays guys.

Samw

12-25-2003, 03:11 AM

I still don't understand why you disagree that demand for livestock is determined by price. I'm not just quoting Economics. This is the real world. Its common sense. Ask this board how many people would buy a clownfish for $20. Then ask how many people would buy a clownfish for $40, $60. You will then see that as the price goes up, less and less people will buy it. Its common sense. You can keep denying Economic theory until you're blue in the face but Economic theory is still the most generally accepted theory for explaining market behavior.

I really would like some references that denies Economic theories for the Aquarium market. In order for price not be an issue in demand, the demand curve has to be vertical (by definition). This is fundamental first and 2nd year Microeconomics.

Here's a reference:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~kaplan/econ2010/section4/section4.html

"The other extreme is a good with a vertical demand curve and is perfectly inelastic. Perfectly inelastic goods have no substitutes and are necessities. An example of this type of good is insulin or other pharmaceuticals that are required for someone to live. If the demand curve is vertical, the firm can raise prices by 1% or (higher) and the quantity demanded will not change. Consumers find a way to continue buying the good."

So this seems to contradict your claim that the livestock demand curve is not affected by price due to it not being essential. In fact, the only time that price does not affect the demand curve is when a good IS essential.

In fact, the demand curve for livestock is very elastic and very sensitive to price change because 1. livestock is NOT essential, and 2. livestock has many substitutes. If the price of clownfish is too high, people will either buy a cheaper fish (because there are substitutes) or not buy the fish at all (because its not essential).

Here's a reference:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~kaplan/econ2010/section4/section4.html

"Perfectly elastic goods have a horizontal demand curve reflecting the presence of identical substitutes. For example, assume that you are shopping for flour at the local grocer. You find two bins of wheat flour located side by side. One is full of flour labeled "wheat flour from wheat grown in Zeppo County, Kansas" and costs $0.75 a pound. The other bin is also full and labeled "wheat flour from wheat grown in Harpo County, Kansas" and costs $0.40 a pound, otherwise the attributes of the flour are identical. Which would you purchase?"

Nothing I see at the aquarium stores betrays what I learned in Economics. Everything matches exactly as expected. I can't see any reason at all why the Aquarium market should defy Economic theory and behavior. What I see on this board and in the stores matches everything that is taught and documented to the Tee.

If you have any references why the Aquarium industry does not follow Economic theory, I would love to read it.

If we took a poll here, we should see that the reefers' buying behaviors agree with Economic theory.

UnderWorldAquatics

12-25-2003, 05:14 AM

I see points from many different people with different ideas, and they all make sense in certain applications. One point I could make is that there are many niche markets inside of this niche market of marine life. In my opinion, and Im not putting anyone down cuz Im the same way in many aspects... hobbyists, like the ones on this board, are generaly "cheap", usually looking for a deal, some shop at wherever the product they want is cheapest, trading frags, buying frags, trading livestock of any sort. This is not a bad thing, I think it is a good thing, it keeps our hobby a little more enviro friendly, "a little". Then there are people that want a pretty tank in their house and have little time, or put little effort into maintaining it, this group in my experience makes up half of the costomers of this hobby. Then there are the elite hobbyists, they have lots of cash, and spend big bucks, they also usually put alot of time into the hobby, these folks make up a small portion of this hobby. Then there are the status customers, "I like the blue one, can we have that yellowish one, those are pretty, can you put lots of them in..." these are the customers who have loads of cash, no interest in learning the hobby, but want their friends and foes to envy them. Bling, Bling customers you could say. These make up most of my customer base, they dont care what things cost, with some things they would pick the more expensive item just to say that they have it. In kelowna there is a funny attitude among the more well off folks, they wont buy it unless its expensive, makes no sense but its true, if you give them a quote on something and they hesitate, tell them youll get back with them, let them know about the new inflated quote and they say, sure lets do it... works for me, I supply to mostly the later 2 groups, I setup and maintain their tanks, they pay a premium for this service, they pay more for livestock than I charge to caring hobbyists, people like you on this board are able to take the livestock and take care of it yourself, thus cheaper, less work for me, customers who make me work harder get charged more for the same thing. dont know if this makes sense to anyone, but running my business this way is the only reason I have been doing well business wise. my product and quality are top notch, you get what you pay for, but it does come at a premium. I know the way i run our business dashes the economic laws to pieces, but thats the way it is.
When I ran my business the way economic laws would dictate, I was not doing very well at it, now things are peachy.... since this thread was origionaly about salt, sorry if I kinda ruined you thread. I too think that if the quantity of salt is less in the new buckets, i would like to see the price adjusted accordingly...

Samw

12-25-2003, 05:25 AM

That's cool. As a collective group, the demand curve remains the same though, since only an insignificant number of customers buy more livestock when prices are higher (Ie. The customers who would rather buy a clownfish at $30 and refuse at $15).

Now, if 100% of the group is like that for livestock, then and only then would that contradict the theory.

If 100% of the people buy more livestock when prices are higher, then you have what is called a giffen good which doesn't really exist in the real world.

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_paradox

"For most products, price elasticity of demand is negative. In other words, price and demand pull in opposite directions; price goes up and quantity demanded goes down, or vice versa. Giffen goods are an exception to this. Their price elasticity of demand is positive. When price goes up the quantity demanded also goes up, and vice versa. In order to be a true Giffen good, price must be the only thing that changes to get a change in demand.
...
Despite years of searching, no generally agreed upon example has been found. "

Harvard Reference

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP02-014?OpenDocument

"Economists have long searched, unsuccessfully, for convincing evidence of a Giffen behavior, i.e., consumers who, under some circumstances, respond to an increase in the price of a good by demanding more of it."

Everything has an explanation you see. Livestock is definitely not a Giffen good. Lots of references out there for Giffen goods and the Paradox.