My fat copperband butterfly

[daniella3d]

I got this copperband butterfly 10 days ago and he was skinny with no fat on the top of the head and top of the body, as well as sunken stomach. He was eating about 3 PE mysis per day and that was it, he would not eat any more.

When I got it I gave it the usual mysis in the morning, which the fish ate but with not much gusto. All I could get it to eat was about 3. I started to feed white worms and bingo. He loves those so much. I did the usual mysis in the morning and then fed live white worms enriched with selcon 7 to 10 times per day, as much as the fish wanted to eat. That's about the size of a bing cherry per day.

here is what the fish looked 10 days ago, as the reseller sent me a link to a video done the day before I got it. You can see that there is no fat on the body top part and it's all pinched, as well as sunken stomach area:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mikescubareef#p/u/1/0HzZYy-BOhE

And here are the photos as of today, I am going to slack a bit on the white worms feeding as he's getting fat! lol :) All the fat pad at the top is back and fully fleshed. The stomack area is all full and plump:

For those who are struggling to keep a copperband alive that does not want to eat, try to get some white worms culture and give it a try! It might save your fish. It's easy to culture, can be enriched and well...the photos are worth a thousand worms...I mean words :)

http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy143/daniella3ds/_MG_2315.jpg?t=1294696782


http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy143/daniella3ds/_MG_2294.jpg?t=1294696811

http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy143/daniella3ds/_MG_2300.jpg?t=1294696865

Hard to tell it's the same fish.

[plutoniumJoe]

Congratulations! I have been only 1/3 with copperbands. I understand that you might not be out of the water (pardon the pun) until 5-6months though.

Good luck.

Joe

[Lance]

Good work! It's nice to see a fish rebound like that. Specially a CBB :biggrin:

[daniella3d]

The fish has been at the importer for 3 weeks, and I have it for 10 days so that's a good month, but I know it could have been cought with cyanide and if so it could die any time even if it is eating very well and if it is fat. The fact that it regained weight so fast is a good sign against cyanide don't you think? I have read that fish poisoned with cyanide will lose weight even if they eat a lot?

I surely hope so because that little guy is really sweet.

Congratulations! I have been only 1/3 with copperbands. I understand that you might not be out of the water (pardon the pun) until 5-6months though.

Good luck.

Joe

[Delphinus]

Man I love CBB's.

Were these frozen white worms or live? When I google for info on white worms I get mostly pages talking about how to culture your own.

[globaldesigns]

Beautiful fish, I wish I had one. Well actually I had 2 over time, but each died. I fell into that statistic of too hard to keep.

Good luck to you, hope the little guy keeps up with the eating.

[wayner]

I love CBB's too, longest I kept one was 2 years - getting the itch to try again, I know I shouldn't, but I'm awful itchy.

The one I had for awhile was actually really small when I got it, I bought some mussels at safeway, he loved picking at them, - maybe that was the ticket to getting him off to a good start, who knows.

[daniella3d]

It's live white worms. You just need to find someone who has a culture and sell you some to strat you own culture. You put them in moist top soil and feed them with bread soaked in a little milk and to enrich it add Selcon.

They jiggle in the water for hours. I even found some still alive in saltwater after 24 hours, but usualy they get eated really quick.

If nobody sell a culture in your area then it is possible to ship it by mail. In winter it must be done with fast delivery and heat pad as they must not freeze.

They are about one ich long for the adults and can be really tiny for the young ones. I have 3 cultures going as I also feed my other fish and my mandarin on occasion, like once per week.

The copperband eat those as if they were popcorn. I let them soak in water about one hour before feeding so that any dirt inside the worm is flushed and the worm become really clean white.


Man I love CBB's.

Were these frozen white worms or live? When I google for info on white worms I get mostly pages talking about how to culture your own.

[daniella3d]

2 year is good. I wonder how long they live in the wild? I have read 5 years livespan or more?

How did yours died?



I love CBB's too, longest I kept one was 2 years - getting the itch to try again, I know I shouldn't, but I'm awful itchy.

The one I had for awhile was actually really small when I got it, I bought some mussels at safeway, he loved picking at them, - maybe that was the ticket to getting him off to a good start, who knows.

[wayner]

If I can remember correctly, must of been a parasite or something internal, never seen anything on the outside, he just stopped eating and hung around the rear corner. I find that with copperbands, at least the ones I've had, always seems to be something on the inside that does them in., last one I had started head twitching, lasted a week.

[Tracey2]

Nice looking copperband. I feed mine live black worms and mysis, do you know how the white worms compare nutritionally to the black worms?

[daniella3d]

I am currently looking to buy blackworms as well to help give it a more balanced diet.

White worms are 70% protein, 14% fat and a few other things, can't remember the others. I do not know the nutritional value of the blackworms, do you?

The nice thing about the white worms is that you can enrich the food they eat easily so you can enrich them with Selcon. They are cheap and easy to culture and to keep.



Nice looking copperband. I feed mine live black worms and mysis, do you know how the white worms compare nutritionally to the black worms?

[daniella3d]

I am going to treat mine for flukes and internal parasites with prazipro for a week before introducing it to my main tank. That kill the flukes and the internal worms. I doubt mine has internal worms because he regained weight so fast and easily, but you never know. Better be safe than sorry.

Usualy the head twitching is caused by flukes but I have also read that if they are upset or scared they can swing their head sideway.


If I can remember correctly, must of been a parasite or something internal, never seen anything on the outside, he just stopped eating and hung around the rear corner. I find that with copperbands, at least the ones I've had, always seems to be something on the inside that does them in., last one I had started head twitching, lasted a week.

[jassz]

He's a beauty! Thanks for sharing your successes.

[fishoholic]

The fish has been at the importer for 3 weeks, and I have it for 10 days so that's a good month, but I know it could have been cought with cyanide and if so it could die any time even if it is eating very well and if it is fat. The fact that it regained weight so fast is a good sign against cyanide don't you think? I have read that fish poisoned with cyanide will lose weight even if they eat a lot?

I surely hope so because that little guy is really sweet.

The 1st CBB I owned I got lucky and while he didn't start eating until almost a month after getting him he eventually started eating PEmysis and I had him for 4 yrs then came home one day and found him dead, don't know what killed him or if it was old age or what but it really sucked losing him after having him for so long.

The 2nd one I never should of got. Basically a new saltwater guy in town (was around a few years ago and only for a few months) told me he could get one in for me for $15, the price was tempting so I took a risk and got him to order one in. When it came in he calls me and says something's wrong with my system I need you to pick it up asap. It looked ok but not great when I got there, but I ended up taking it hoping to save it. However 3 days after I got it it died, and it never ate.

The 3rd one I got I can only assume was cyanide caught. At the store I got it from he was eating mysis readily and continued to eat really well and get fat and seemed very healthy in my tank. I had him for just shy of four months, he had always ate well and he showed no signs of losing weight, or looking sick, then suddenly one morning I went to check on the tank and there he was dead :surprise: Still looked fine (no odd body discoloration or damage) just was dead. No idea what else it could of been other then cyanide, he was a small CBB so I am pretty sure it wasn't old age or anything like that.

I'm glad yours is doing well eating worms and I hope he lives a long time for you, but from my experience it's really rare and unfortunately perfectly healthy ones sometimes just die for no obvious reason (guessing cyanide caught) and show no sign of anything being wrong before hand either.

[daniella3d]

I just read of a study on cyanide effect on fish and it destroy their internal intestinal flora and dammage the liver, so even if the fish eat it does not gain weight as it cannot absorb the food.

If your fish was gaining weight ain't that a sign it was not poisoned by cyanide? I wish I could find more on this, but basicaly that's what I read for the symptoms of cyanide related deadth.

I am guessing that a lot of copperband death are blamed on cyanide, wether it is cyanide or not, hard to tell without a proper test. I have also read that a fish dead from cyanide poison has very pale gills but that's probably when they die right after cyanide exposure, not 4 months later.




The 3rd one I got I can only assume was cyanide caught. At the store I got it from he was eating mysis readily and continued to eat really well and get fat and seemed very healthy in my tank. I had him for just shy of four months, he had always ate well and he showed no signs of losing weight, or looking sick, then suddenly one morning I went to check on the tank and there he was dead :surprise: Still looked fine (no odd body discoloration or damage) just was dead. No idea what else it could of been other then cyanide, he was a small CBB so I am pretty sure it wasn't old age or anything like that.

I'm glad yours is doing well eating worms and I hope he lives a long time for you, but from my experience it's really rare and unfortunately perfectly healthy ones sometimes just die for no obvious reason (guessing cyanide caught) and show no sign of anything being wrong before hand either.

[Samw]

That is great to see. Well done.

[fishoholic]

I just read of a study on cyanide effect on fish and it destroy their internal intestinal flora and dammage the liver, so even if the fish eat it does not gain weight as it cannot absorb the food.

If your fish was gaining weight ain't that a sign it was not poisoned by cyanide? I wish I could find more on this, but basicaly that's what I read for the symptoms of cyanide related deadth.

I am guessing that a lot of copperband death are blamed on cyanide, wether it is cyanide or not, hard to tell without a proper test. I have also read that a fish dead from cyanide poison has very pale gills but that's probably when they die right after cyanide exposure, not 4 months later.

Not really sure from a research point of view, I just have heard other members from here say that the fish could look perfectly healthy, be eating and doing well then die from cyanide without warning and that the cyanide could last in their systems for up to 6 months. The was a big thread a long time ago about it and there were people who added some scientific research to it, but it was a while ago and I can't remember what all the thread said. When I have some time I will try to find the thread and post a link to it.

[gobytron]

The 1st CBB I owned I got lucky and while he didn't start eating until almost a month after getting him he eventually started eating PEmysis and I had him for 4 yrs then came home one day and found him dead, don't know what killed him or if it was old age or what but it really sucked losing him after having him for so long.

The 2nd one I never should of got. Basically a new saltwater guy in town (was around a few years ago and only for a few months) told me he could get one in for me for $15, the price was tempting so I took a risk and got him to order one in. When it came in he calls me and says something's wrong with my system I need you to pick it up asap. It looked ok but not great when I got there, but I ended up taking it hoping to save it. However 3 days after I got it it died, and it never ate.

The 3rd one I got I can only assume was cyanide caught. At the store I got it from he was eating mysis readily and continued to eat really well and get fat and seemed very healthy in my tank. I had him for just shy of four months, he had always ate well and he showed no signs of losing weight, or looking sick, then suddenly one morning I went to check on the tank and there he was dead :surprise: Still looked fine (no odd body discoloration or damage) just was dead. No idea what else it could of been other then cyanide, he was a small CBB so I am pretty sure it wasn't old age or anything like that.

I'm glad yours is doing well eating worms and I hope he lives a long time for you, but from my experience it's really rare and unfortunately perfectly healthy ones sometimes just die for no obvious reason (guessing cyanide caught) and show no sign of anything being wrong before hand either.

All of my CBB experience has been like your third one...
Always fat, healthy looking and a voracious eater but then you go to freed your tank one day and you cant find it, then you finally see it...

After getting my hopes up with this fish a couple of times, I will not attempt another one.

If you can give a fish the absolute optimum care and it still dies, I just dont feel they belong in my tank...

[daniella3d]

wow that's really sad. Why are they so often cought with cyanide if this kill the fish each time or most of the time?

I am wondering if they are just fragile and die when they lack a certain food over time, or if they really all die from cyanide?

The thing is, without proper testing we do not know. If they die from cyanide poison then this is easily fixed by bying stock certified net cought, but if they die from lack of certain food in their diet, then this is pretty much hopeless and then it should never be imported.

Now I am pretty scared for my little one :(



All of my CBB experience has been like your third one...
Always fat, healthy looking and a voracious eater but then you go to freed your tank one day and you cant find it, then you finally see it...

After getting my hopes up with this fish a couple of times, I will not attempt another one.

If you can give a fish the absolute optimum care and it still dies, I just dont feel they belong in my tank...

[kien]

My last (literally) attempt at a copperband was a statistic as well sadly :(

Healthy and fat at the LFS for a couple of months. Healthy and eating well in my tank for a month. Go to feed tank one day and.. Ya, dead :(. It is especially frustrating when they go like that. Eating well and absolutely no signs of trouble right up to the night before they perish. There's nothing you could have done even if you wanted to because you went to bed thinking the CBB was healthy and happy as can be.:cry:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4684713334_db630ee824_z.jpg

[daniella3d]

Are you sure it was fat because he does not seem to have the fat pad on the top of the head and body on that photo. Usualy when they are healthy they have a well plumped flesh or fat padding on the thop part and in your photo it seem to be rather pinched instead of bulging and well padded?

When I got mine it was also pinched on the top of the head and did not have fat on the top but now that area is bulging and I can see there is a bump there instead.

I think that when they don't have their fat reserve they are pretty much doomed. What was yours eating and how much a day? They seem to need a lot of food many times per day, but that's from seing mine so not sure.

Here is my goal for mine. See in the pic on that site how the top of the head has a bump, almost as if the fish has a hump? This is a really healthy copperband with a full fat pad:

http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/00964/pages/Predators%20Of%20Butterfly%20Fish%20cd.html

http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/00964/images/2%20copperband%20butterfly%20fish.jpg

here is another one showing a really thick fat pad on the top of the head:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ckBlasgNSzg/Sq2MFEE9JzI/AAAAAAAAOvQ/8-BuCawsfOw/s400/Chelmon+rostratus.JPG

And last but not least, a youtube video showing this fat pad nicely on this very healthy copperband (not mine but what I am trying to get with mine):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLfgFKaFVaI&feature=player_embedded



My last (literally) attempt at a copperband was a statistic as well sadly :(

Healthy and fat at the LFS for a couple of months. Healthy and eating well in my tank for a month. Go to feed tank one day and.. Ya, dead :(. It is especially frustrating when they go like that. Eating well and absolutely no signs of trouble right up to the night before they perish. There's nothing you could have done even if you wanted to because you went to bed thinking the CBB was healthy and happy as can be.:cry:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4684713334_db630ee824_z.jpg

[Tracey2]

White worms are 70% protein, 14% fat and a few other things, can't remember the others. I do not know the nutritional value of the blackworms, do you?

I found this link to nutritional value of freeze dried black worms. I feed live black worms and have never heard of the white ones but am always looking for other foods that might interest her, she loves the blackworms, there like candy to her.

[Jackie]

I want to try some live worm too..where can I get them in Calgary?

[Tracey2]

sorry, this is the link http://www.aquaticsuppliers.com/Freeze-dried-Blackworms-10-grams-bagged-as-cubes-FDBW006.htm

[fishoholic]

Still trying to find the thread but here is a pic. of my old CBB that I had for 4 yrs, can't tell if there's a bump or not but he always ate well and seemed healthy until the day he died.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/Laurie_Morin/DSC_1328.jpg

[Lance]

I've had mine for nearly two years. I got him from a fellow Canreefer. At the time he was only eating fresh shellfish. Eventually he took to Mysis. Now he will eat any meaty foods, but no pellets or flakes. I soak his food in Selcon 3x per week. I still give him a fresh clam now and then for a treat. I put the clam meat in a container with very small holes in it so that he can get his snout in to get the food but the other fish can't.


http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/lancefishtank/IMG_3850.jpg

[daniella3d]

Are you only feeding it 3 times per week?

I started the Prazipro treatment on mine. He's fat now but I surely hope that treatment will not compromise the fish appetite.

Interesting, I treated in my frag tank and the prazipro did not kill any of the flatworm in my tank. Is that normal? I was hoping it would kill them but not sure if the product is active or not.



I soak his food in Selcon 3x per week. I still give him a fresh clam now and then for a treat. I put the clam meat in a container with very small holes in it so that he can get his snout in to get the food but the other fish can't.

[Lance]

No, I meant I soak the food in Selcon 3x per week. I feed twice per day, every day. I feed my CBB: fresh clams, muscles, squid, mysis, enriched brine shrimp, Emerald Feast, Plankton from SF Bay. As I stated earlier he will only eat meaty foods; won't touch pellets or flakes.

[daniella3d]

Ok thanks, I will look into some of this food, especialy fresh clam.

I think it's not overdone to feed a copperband twice per day. Yours seem happy and fat.


No, I meant I soak the food in Selcon 3x per week. I feed twice per day, every day. I feed my CBB: fresh clams, muscles, squid, mysis, enriched brine shrimp, Emerald Feast, Plankton from SF Bay. As I stated earlier he will only eat meaty foods; won't touch pellets or flakes.

[daniella3d]

My copperband loves the fresh oyster and mussles. He and the niger trigger finish it off in no time and the copperband gets a huge belly then. So with a diet of live white worms daily, PE mysis (which he only eats a few) and fresh shelfish every 2 days, he's fat and happy.

Interesting to see how the copperband push away the trigger when he comes near the oyster at first, then leave the place for the trigger. Good thing my niger trigger is a big pussy and not aggressive at all and wait until the copperband leave. In fact it is the niger trigger that showed the copperband that the thing in the shell was food! it is only after seing the trigger eating it that the copperband went for it.

[Jackie]

I notice my CBB stays active at night and seems never sleep.
It that why they don't live long?

[daniella3d]

no :) they don't live long sometimes because they are cought with cyanide and this slowly attack their liver and kidney and eventualy one of both organs fail. Copperband butterfly prefer lower light and they usualy hunt after the lights are out, especialy if there are moonlights. This is why I bought mine actualy, to eat the nasty amphipods that come out after dark and eat all my zoanthids.

If the copperband has not be poisoned by cyanide and its liver and kidney are good, it is well fed and eating well and fat, then it should live many years. I know someone how had one for nearly 7 years.

Many people think that their copperband is healthy but they are skinny with no fat pad at the top of the head and top of the body. They should be thick there. They should not be pinched at all but rather the opposite.

The guy where I bought my copperband from said the fish was eating like a pig. It was eating 3 to 4 PE mysis per day and that's what he called eating like a pig. The fish was very skinny and emanciated. Juging from my experience with mine, copperband butterfly eat A LOT! wow...almost as much as a trigger.

I notice my CBB stays active at night and seems never sleep.
It that why they don't live long?

[Jackie]

I tried fresh oyster as you suggested and he likes it.
it is the only thing my CBB eats beside mysis.
I will try some live white worms later.

[daniella3d]

Glad to hear it's working. Once it get used to the oyster, try fresh mussel. Mine love both. Of course I am pretty sure he'll love live white worms. The mussels are much cheaper than oysters and mussel have less fat and more protein, so I consider this some of the best food for a nutrition value. I will try to keep mine on mussel as base food, with about 30% white worms in the diet.

White worms must be given in small quantity as too much fat food may lead to fat liver disease. They are fat and a rich food so once the copperband has gained back its normal weight, it is a good idea to limit the quantity of fat food.

I am now giving mine about 20 to 40 white worms per day when I am not feeding oyster, and less when feeding oyster. Copperband seem to ONLY love fat rich food. PE mysis is very rich in fat, oyster as well and of course white worms. Maybe their instinc drive them to this type of food, not sure. I would love to know the dietary value of their natural diet which is mostly worms.

Here are the nutrition facts about fresh mussels:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4186/2

and fresh oysters:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4189/2





I tried fresh oyster as you suggested and he likes it.
it is the only thing my CBB eats beside mysis.
I will try some live white worms later.