Does this look/sound like flukes?

[jassz]

I think this should have its own topic as perhaps it was lost in the other thread.

I have a double saddle back butterfly (Zoom Zoom), that I have had about 6 weeks. He's not a good eater, but seems to be surviving eating from my live rocks (mostly aptaisia). He was doing some chin scraping on the rocks (see the other thread about his lips), but that seems to have stopped. He is a bit twitchy sometimes though. There have been no spots on him, until a couple of days ago when one appeared on his front fin. It is white, covers most of his fin, and is kind of thick and bumpy looking. He seems to keep it close to his side. Very easy to see, but not so easy to get a picture of. But I tried. What might this be, and what would be the best thing to do for it? I have a 135g tank with a lionfish, a wolf eel, a picasso trigger and a valentini puffer. Oh, and a cowrie snail. Everyone gets along well. I think the other fish are senior citizens (at least the puffer and the lion), but everyone is healthy and doing well. I have no means to quarantine (which is partly why I've waited for years to introduce another fish, and I did so now because I needed someone to help tame the aptaisia that had taken over the tank. Zoom Zoom is certainly doing that!).

What do you think?

[daniella3d]

Quarantine is a must, at least to have a QT if a fish need to be treated. It's cheap enough and easy enough to set up.

Is it reddish or do you see some red blood vessle? Maybe some bacterial infection or parasites. The scratching would indicate probably parasites. For the supplementent food you could get a white worms culture and give it some live white worms. My copperband eat those like popcorn! They are rich in protein and fat and since they eat bread soaked in milk it is also easy enough to enrich them with vitamines and selcon.

If your fish get worse, I am afraid that you will have to treat it with antibiotics or a parasite treatment. I would go with Seachem Paraguard as it is a very broad treatment that is not hard on a fish and that target fungus, bacterias and parasites. Best not do this in the main tank as it would kill invertebrates and coral.

Just put a few pieces of live rock with some water from the main tank to start with and a small pump or a small canister filter and that's it. Treat it with paraguard for 2 to 3 weeks if it does not get better.

I think this should have its own topic as perhaps it was lost in the other thread.

I have a double saddle back butterfly (Zoom Zoom), that I have had about 6 weeks. He's not a good eater, but seems to be surviving eating from my live rocks (mostly aptaisia). He was doing some chin scraping on the rocks (see the other thread about his lips), but that seems to have stopped. He is a bit twitchy sometimes though. There have been no spots on him, until a couple of days ago when one appeared on his front fin. It is white, covers most of his fin, and is kind of thick and bumpy looking. He seems to keep it close to his side. Very easy to see, but not so easy to get a picture of. But I tried. What might this be, and what would be the best thing to do for it? I have a 135g tank with a lionfish, a wolf eel, a picasso trigger and a valentini puffer. Oh, and a cowrie snail. Everyone gets along well. I think the other fish are senior citizens (at least the puffer and the lion), but everyone is healthy and doing well. I have no means to quarantine (which is partly why I've waited for years to introduce another fish, and I did so now because I needed someone to help tame the aptaisia that had taken over the tank. Zoom Zoom is certainly doing that!).

What do you think?

[jassz]

I have a FOWLR tank, no coral. There's a few hermit crabs, maybe, but that's it.

Now that the fish is already in the main tank, wouldn't I have to treat everyone?

My previous experiences quarantining were not good. I had to remove almost all the rocks to catch, and in one instance the stress was so much that he was dead by morning (and he hadn't even been THAT sick). The other QT fish also died, though not as quickly.

Where did you get the white worms? I don't recall seeing thme in fish stores.

Thanks for the tip on the medicine. I will look for it.

[daniella3d]

Can you isolate your invertabrates from the tank. Also if you have bristle worms, bristle stars etc those will probably die from the medecine but not sure, and might pollute the tank.

What makes you think it,s flukes if the fish has some white patch on the fin? Does it breath fast? shake its head and scratch the gill on rock?

paraguard is a gentle treatment for fish and generaly will not harm your biofilter but read about it to be sure. My biofilter remained perfect and I did the treatment 3 weeks for my niger trigger popeye and the piece of liverock worked well for the biofiltration (no ammonia or nitrites).

It's your choice to use it in the main tank or not, but if you are sure that it is parasites like flukes and then probably the parasites are in the tank and the whole tank must be either treated or all the fish removed and treated.

I would go slowly and use half does in the fist day and check out the parameters.

It might be expensive to treat a large display tank though!

You cannot find white worms culture at the store. Must be bought from someone who has a culture and he's willing to sell you some. Generaly it is 15$ per a starter culture and well worth it. Within 30 days you would have enough to feed your finicky eaters.

Check in your area if you cannot find someone around who has some for sale. If not, it can be sent by express mail with a heat pad.


I have a FOWLR tank, no coral. There's a few hermit crabs, maybe, but that's it.

Now that the fish is already in the main tank, wouldn't I have to treat everyone?

My previous experiences quarantining were not good. I had to remove almost all the rocks to catch, and in one instance the stress was so much that he was dead by morning (and he hadn't even been THAT sick). The other QT fish also died, though not as quickly.

Where did you get the white worms? I don't recall seeing thme in fish stores.

Thanks for the tip on the medicine. I will look for it.

[jassz]

So... I sought opinions from a number of different websites, as well as calling around to some knowledgable fish stores. It was suggested to me that the fish does not have flukes, but rather lymphocystis (sp?). I researched it a bit, and it does seem like that might be what it is, although most of the photos on the net are of extreme cases. If that's the case, it's good news as it is not fatal (although the secondary problems can be). There is no treatment for it, but it can take months to resolve. I'm still not 100% sure, but I think I'm just going to sit on this for a while longer and see what happens. He's got an appetite (just not for my cooking :neutral:) and he's active. It might be a mistake to create more stress in his life (what I read about lymphocystis warns NOT to induce more stress).

Has anyone else exerienced this before?

[christyf5]

it does look more like lymphocystis to me, I thought that was a water quality issue myself but I'm sure someone else can clarify. You could do a few waterchanges but personally I wouldn't remove the fish as it looks like it has issues already (mouth issues as you've mentioned) and is probably stressed.

if you do however come to the conclusion that it is flukes, I would use prazipro, you can treat the main tank ( I have used it on my full blown reef several times with no repercussions).

[daniella3d]

when appetite is good everything is good, well sort of, so I would wait and see how it evolve then.

Sign of flukes is fast breathing and head shaking and scratching.



So... I sought opinions from a number of different websites, as well as calling around to some knowledgable fish stores. It was suggested to me that the fish does not have flukes, but rather lymphocystis (sp?). I researched it a bit, and it does seem like that might be what it is, although most of the photos on the net are of extreme cases. If that's the case, it's good news as it is not fatal (although the secondary problems can be). There is no treatment for it, but it can take months to resolve. I'm still not 100% sure, but I think I'm just going to sit on this for a while longer and see what happens. He's got an appetite (just not for my cooking :neutral:) and he's active. It might be a mistake to create more stress in his life (what I read about lymphocystis warns NOT to induce more stress).

Has anyone else exerienced this before?

[jassz]

it does look more like lymphocystis to me, I thought that was a water quality issue myself but I'm sure someone else can clarify. r).

What I was told was that it is almost always strikes newly added fish, and shows up about 6wks after introduction. That also fits. Now someone else has told me it is not likely lymphocystis as it is not at the edge of the fin. :question: Has anyone seen it before? How could I differentiate it from flukes, or even a bacterial infection?

On the upside, he tried a bit of prawn last night, and has now moved his excavation of the aptisia to the gravel at the bottom. He shakes and shakes until the rocks fall off. I wonder if I could squirt some vitamins on to them?

I should also mention that he has fairly liquidy poo (which the puffer ate :puke:). But then again, he has a pretty limited diet (the butterfly I mean, not the puffer).

His improved appetite gives me hope. And he doesn't seem at all stressed. Even when I was doing the water change and cleaning the walls of the tank yesterday, he didnt' particularly shy away from me. He seemed rather curious, just like the rest of them.

[daniella3d]

Nok, flukes show up right away, not 6 weeks after introduction. The fast breathing start pretty much right away as well. Ich or marine velvet can show up like 4 to 5 weeks later due to the parasites live cycle. This can also cause fast breathing and scratching.

What do you mean he shakes and shakes until the rock fall off? does he scratch itself on the rock? If he scratch his body on the rock or gill on the rock then it is definitly some parasites and must be taken care of as soon as possible. It could also be that the white stuff on the fin is some infection after a bad scratch on the rock?

Any excessive scratching on the rock is not a good sign. A little bit here and there is not necessary sign of parasite, just like us have a little ich here and there. Like once a day or so is not necessary a sign of parasite but 30 time per day scratching on the rock would be a bad sign.


What I was told was that it is almost always strikes newly added fish, and shows up about 6wks after introduction. That also fits. Now someone else has told me it is not likely lymphocystis as it is not at the edge of the fin. :question: Has anyone seen it before? How could I differentiate it from flukes, or even a bacterial infection?

On the upside, he tried a bit of prawn last night, and has now moved his excavation of the aptisia to the gravel at the bottom. He shakes and shakes until the rocks fall off. I wonder if I could squirt some vitamins on to them?

I should also mention that he has fairly liquidy poo (which the puffer ate :puke:). But then again, he has a pretty limited diet (the butterfly I mean, not the puffer).

His improved appetite gives me hope. And he doesn't seem at all stressed. Even when I was doing the water change and cleaning the walls of the tank yesterday, he didnt' particularly shy away from me. He seemed rather curious, just like the rest of them.

[jassz]

Actually, I meant that the lymphocystis shows up six weeks after introduction, not flukes. Sorry for the confusion.

He is shaking off small rocks that the aptasia has rooted into before he eats them. He seems to give all his food a shake, even the bits of stuff he has eaten that I give him.

He was bashing his chin a bit on the rocks, but I haven't seen that action for a week or more. I am hoping it means his mouth is healing on its own.

I'll be watching him closely!

[daniella3d]

Ok then I would just keep watching and wait as if his mouth have cleared on its own that mean the fish immune system is doing its job.

Unless there are parasites and there is no real evidence of it for now, I would just observe.

I wish mine would eat aiptasia! millions in my tank.

[jassz]

Update:

The saddle butterfly is doing well. After about 8 weeks, he finally started eating the food I give them, and now actually eagerly competes with the trigger for the pieces. The spot that was on his front fin went away on its own, so I guess maybe it was lymphocystis? Whatever, he seems to be doing very well. I should have taken before/after pictures of the aptasia, because he's really gotten that under control.

However....

I noticed my Valentini puffer flashing against the rocks a few times. I couldn't see anything apparently wrong, but then I noticed that right in front of his front fin on one side, it looks like a bubble inflating and deflating as he breathes (I guess it's his gill). It is very tiny and hard to see, but the other side has no bubble. It just looks like an open... well, gill. :lol: So now I'm wondering if it is a gill fluke? Maybe I should have treated the tank, but the butterfly got better. The puffer is pretty old though I think, maybe he's just more susceptible. There is no way I can start treatment now, as I'm going away for a week and the neighbour kid is coming in to take care of the critters. She's pretty reliable, but no way I'm leaving her to medicate. I don't even know for sure what/if I should medicate. Any thoughts???

[daniella3d]

I don,t think you would see gill flukes with your bare eyes. It's very tiny and difficult to see.

As for medication, prazipro is quite reef safe. I used it and all my invert and coral were fine, except maybe the xenia that shrinked a bit but they survived.

Also flukes don't inflate and deflate. If that think is big enough for you to see it inflate and deflate, I doubt it's a fluke.

Update:
I noticed my Valentini puffer flashing against the rocks a few times. I couldn't see anything apparently wrong, but then I noticed that right in front of his front fin on one side, it looks like a bubble inflating and deflating as he breathes (I guess it's his gill). It is very tiny and hard to see, but the other side has no bubble. It just looks like an open... well, gill. :lol: So now I'm wondering if it is a gill fluke?

[jassz]

Well, what I read about flukes is that the fish will create mucous to try to get rid of the thing, and that's what ends up suffocating the fish (when the fluke is in the gills). This doesn't really look like mucous, it looks like skin, but I wouldn't really know what it's supposed to look like.

[daniella3d]

I had many fish with flukes before, freshwater and saltwater but never saw any mucous on the fish because of that. I don't think you would see this on the gill unless there are a huge amount of them, but thats unlikely.

My copperband butterfly had flukes and 2 treatments of prazipro took care of it. You might want to try a cleaner shrimp as well as they are good at removing the flukes.

Well, what I read about flukes is that the fish will create mucous to try to get rid of the thing, and that's what ends up suffocating the fish (when the fluke is in the gills). This doesn't really look like mucous, it looks like skin, but I wouldn't really know what it's supposed to look like.